Fraud with our Birmingham turnkey property

General Real Estate Investing 199 Replies

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs :

@Ben Leybovich I currently do no funding in the markets you mention.

however I have done deals in Detroit 2002 to 2006  Columbus about the same time and indy.. I have a standing Fried Rueben ball invitation to come to Cleveland but never been there.

 OMG what is a Fried Rueben Ball? A dance with deep fried ruebens?  

Originally posted by @James Wise :

@Alex Craig

Not to derail the thread or anything but a thought I had while reading through this thread. Why do you and other "traditional" turnkey operators choose to buy, fix and flip properties as opposed to just brokering property to investors then managing it for them? 

The amount of money you make is not all that much more than we make when we broker deals for clients but you have to put so much more of your money into the deal and are bottlenecked at what you can afford to buy and flip at any given time. 

Just curious if you or other "turnkey" providers ever looked into a different way of going about things than the normal route of buy,fix and sell? To me the juice that comes from buy, fix and sell was never worth the squeeze.

I believe @Douglas Skipworth company does things like we do. What are your thoughts on this Doug? Making an average of 7k to me does not seem worth the capital investment when I can likely do 3 brokered deals in the same time frame and make an average of 2k per deal without having to deploy all of that capital. Did you guys every look into more of a traditional turnkey model?

Ok, while you asked me a simple question, I tried to keep the answer simple, but I tend to be long winded, so here goes.....

2k a deal vs. 7k a deal is a huge difference, especially over 90 properties a year. Also, my wife makes all offers on the MLS homes we acquire, thus we get a commish on the front end too, typically on avg about $1,500. I don't see it being a big risk as we have more demand for our houses then actual houses; typically we have it under contract to sell during the renovation phase. While we do have margins greater then 7k and we have had double digit margin profits this year, I will certainly take on some deals known up front that the margin will be below 7k simply b/c we do know it will sell and a big goal for us is to grow the mgmt company. Also, I will take on lower margin deals to not only keep up with demand, but also to keep my guys working. I have been handing out paychecks every Friday to mostly the same guys for almost 4 years. I can't afford to lose any of my outside labor.

If the only homes we were selling were homes 2000 or newer, then selling TK may not provide the advantages we provide over just brokering deals. That is the approach that a lot of the Hedge Funds went.  But since the majority of B class homes sell in our market are older, I certainly see the advantage our clients get by purchasing TK.  The homes that investors would buy in the Realtor space where they get a discount from buying TK would likely be dated and need some repairs that the seller may not be willing to make.  Keep in mind that sellers in this space are not going to fix every minor issue, often time leading to higher maintenance in the first few years when they should be banking cash flows.  I believe our model of renovating these older homes to retail ready and then fixing 95% or greater on the inspection report will best position investors who leverage for success.  Anyone who gets conventional financing or has loans on their properties knows the importance of reducing maintenance. 

All that being said, I am brokering 2 deals for friends of mine looking to sell.  It is a nightmare and a lot more challenging since I do not control the deal. Even though in both cases I have informed the buyers to expect more then normal issues on inspection report, once the inspection report came back, it was like that conversation never existed. I have presented these buyers our homes that are retail ready for the area, but they say the price is to high. Obviously I find this confusing; the discounted home that is non TK has older systems (roof, HVAC, Federal Pacific Panels) and is priced 12k under ours is a pass and the homes with all those items updated, new and TK is to expensive.  No win situation.

Bottom line, I find the TK model easier to control and while the margins have gone down every year, the volume makes up for it, especially since we are growing the PM business at the same time.

Medium turnkey logoAlex Craig, Memphis Turnkey / Little Rock Turnkey | [email protected] | 901‑848‑9028 | http://www.memphisturnkey.com

Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich :
Most things being sold TK in Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Toledo, Indianapolis, Detroit, and most other locations in the Mid-West, do not fall in this category. People are buying PIGS, where the quality of tenant base and therefore economic losses coupled with CapEx assure misery...

@James Wise care to respond to Ben's statement? I know you market what Ben refers to as PIGS so how do you manage your client expectations with respect to quality of tenant base, CapEx, economic losses??

Originally posted by @Gautam Venkatesan :
Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
Most things being sold TK in Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Toledo, Indianapolis, Detroit, and most other locations in the Mid-West, do not fall in this category. People are buying PIGS, where the quality of tenant base and therefore economic losses coupled with CapEx assure misery...

@James Wise care to respond to Ben's statement? I know you market what Ben refers to as PIGS so how do you manage your client expectations with respect to quality of tenant base, CapEx, economic losses??

 I was asked this question when the PIG thread came out. See my opinion on the topic in Ben's PIG thread

Medium holton wise property group logo jpegJames Wise, The Holton Wise Property Group | [email protected] | 216‑661‑6633 | http://www.HoltonWisePropertyGroup.com | OH Agent # 2015001161 | Podcast Guest on Show #127

This post has been removed.

@Ann Howell

How much money were you going to put into this deal and how much did you think you were going to make annually?

This sounds like a nightmare. As I read on and on, it was like reading a best selling thriller: my stomach was in my throat. But as a new investor, I really appreciate when people share horror stories and are completely transparent about success and failure. Believe it or not, it is very encouraging. This wasn't a complete fail, but the reality is the although no one WANTS to, we do sometimes loose money in REI.

Thanks for sharing and I hope all goes well. Im just curious...are you new to turnkey? Or did you just come across a new company the did you wrong?

This has nothing to do with the provider. The model itself is flawed to hell.

That is correct. Anyone purchasing property for 15 to 30k and expecting $600-$700 rents to flow like manna from heaven is in for a rude awakening. There have been (and continue to be) several outfits operating in Columbus operating exactly like the one described by OP. For a while, we managed property for one of them (before we figured out exactly what they were doing). The clients they handed off to us (after the property sold) have universally and without fail lost money. They have all either sold their property or call us monthly with sob stories and accusations as to why they are not making money. All we can do is gently explain the financials.

Do not purchase property (or anything else) from slick-talking investment groups with webinars and cruises and hyped-up marketing and literature. Do not purchase property that comes with any sort of "guarantee". These companies come and go like thieves in the night, and you'll be left holding an empty shell of a property that you paid 2x market price for.

FYI everyone.  Hang on to that bad check.  It's your ticket to a little bit of redemption from the bad actors. Bad checks can be much easier to prosecute and potentially more lucrative. And they can also fall under criminal penalties.  Eliot Ness got the bad guys.  You can too.  

Medium ergDave Foster, Exchange Resource Group | [email protected] | 850.889.1031 | http://www.erg1031.com

Originally posted by @Peter Lohmann :

This has nothing to do with the provider. The model itself is flawed to hell.

That is correct. Anyone purchasing property for 15 to 30k and expecting $600-$700 rents to flow like manna from heaven is in for a rude awakening. There have been (and continue to be) several outfits operating in Columbus operating exactly like the one described by OP. For a while, we managed property for one of them (before we figured out exactly what they were doing). The clients they handed off to us (after the property sold) have universally and without fail lost money. They have all either sold their property or call us monthly with sob stories and accusations as to why they are not making money. All we can do is gently explain the financials.

Do not purchase property (or anything else) from slick-talking investment groups with webinars and cruises and hyped-up marketing and literature. Do not purchase property that comes with any sort of "guarantee". These companies come and go like thieves in the night, and you'll be left holding an empty shell of a property that you paid 2x market price for.

My own experience is that the tenant pool paying $600 rents is flawed, doesn't matter what you pay for the property.  A $600-700 housing payment in many, many parts of the country and for many households is a clear sign of poverty level income and/or or lack of income that requires government assistance.  Poverty is a not an indicator of the personal qualities of the tenant.  It's an indicator of the stability of their finances.  Tenant finances impact more than their ability to pay rent. If they can't pay for utilities or have no cash to deal with even the smallest cleanliness or upkeep requirements, or move their non operational vehicle from the yard, that's going to directly affect your property. There are of course exceptions to this, and many people live in rural areas where housing and rents are cheaper and not an indication of poverty.  

The TK model is attracting buyers that would not otherwise dare to buy a $50-75K house in Dayton or Detroit or Indianapolis.  It's not just the acquisition and rehab of the properties.  It's the level of removal from the tenant pool.  If you never go and drive the neighborhood, your TK provider does the rehab, and you hire a PM, you never have to deal with your product or your customer.  TK has taken this to a whole new level in the low income rentals.

@Ben Leybovich

There is a reason in most other investment or gambling markets there are very clear rules about what you can and can't sell and to whom. There are actions bought every day about that. The reason is because many people don't know better and considering the real lack of reliable information, unlike in say the equity markets, it is a very hard thing to "know" with any certainty as you may know because you do teach people in your courses. 

Much like in other markets I think most people likely know one or two people who made money in the asset class and thus assume they can too.    

I am not saying I know the answer to this debate about "PIGS" I do not know and this debate has been had elsewhere to death but clearly when you combine a tough asset class with bad operators who also seem to have done things they should not have there is a recipe for disaster. 

Originally posted by K. marie P.:
Originally posted by @Peter Lohmann:

This has nothing to do with the provider. The model itself is flawed to hell.

That is correct. Anyone purchasing property for 15 to 30k and expecting $600-$700 rents to flow like manna from heaven is in for a rude awakening. There have been (and continue to be) several outfits operating in Columbus operating exactly like the one described by OP. For a while, we managed property for one of them (before we figured out exactly what they were doing). The clients they handed off to us (after the property sold) have universally and without fail lost money. They have all either sold their property or call us monthly with sob stories and accusations as to why they are not making money. All we can do is gently explain the financials.

Do not purchase property (or anything else) from slick-talking investment groups with webinars and cruises and hyped-up marketing and literature. Do not purchase property that comes with any sort of "guarantee". These companies come and go like thieves in the night, and you'll be left holding an empty shell of a property that you paid 2x market price for.

My own experience is that the tenant pool paying $600 rents is flawed, doesn't matter what you pay for the property.  A $600-700 housing payment in many, many parts of the country and for many households is a clear sign of poverty level income and/or or lack of income that requires government assistance.  Poverty is a not an indicator of the personal qualities of the tenant.  It's an indicator of the stability of their finances.  Tenant finances impact more than their ability to pay rent. If they can't pay for utilities or have no cash to deal with even the smallest cleanliness or upkeep requirements, or move their non operational vehicle from the yard, that's going to directly affect your property. There are of course exceptions to this, and many people live in rural areas where housing and rents are cheaper and not an indication of poverty.  

The TK model is attracting buyers that would not otherwise dare to buy a $50-75K house in Dayton or Detroit or Indianapolis.  It's not just the acquisition and rehab of the properties.  It's the level of removal from the tenant pool.  If you never go and drive the neighborhood, your TK provider does the rehab, and you hire a PM, you never have to deal with your product or your customer.  TK has taken this to a whole new level in the low income rentals.

I have never read anything from you that I can disagree with. This post takes the gold. $600-$700 in an SFR in Mid-West cannot make money by definition. It takes $1,000+. Apartments can do well at $600 - $700, but only if you are the manager and manage the hell out of them. It's a tenant class issue, resulting in excessive economic losses, coupled with increased R&M and CapEx.

Everyone wants the magic pill. Good luck :)

Originally posted by K. M.:
Originally posted by @Peter Lohmann:

This has nothing to do with the provider. The model itself is flawed to hell.

That is correct. Anyone purchasing property for 15 to 30k and expecting $600-$700 rents to flow like manna from heaven is in for a rude awakening. There have been (and continue to be) several outfits operating in Columbus operating exactly like the one described by OP. For a while, we managed property for one of them (before we figured out exactly what they were doing). The clients they handed off to us (after the property sold) have universally and without fail lost money. They have all either sold their property or call us monthly with sob stories and accusations as to why they are not making money. All we can do is gently explain the financials.

Do not purchase property (or anything else) from slick-talking investment groups with webinars and cruises and hyped-up marketing and literature. Do not purchase property that comes with any sort of "guarantee". These companies come and go like thieves in the night, and you'll be left holding an empty shell of a property that you paid 2x market price for.

My own experience is that the tenant pool paying $600 rents is flawed, doesn't matter what you pay for the property.  A $600-700 housing payment in many, many parts of the country and for many households is a clear sign of poverty level income and/or or lack of income that requires government assistance.  Poverty is a not an indicator of the personal qualities of the tenant.  It's an indicator of the stability of their finances.  Tenant finances impact more than their ability to pay rent. If they can't pay for utilities or have no cash to deal with even the smallest cleanliness or upkeep requirements, or move their non operational vehicle from the yard, that's going to directly affect your property. There are of course exceptions to this, and many people live in rural areas where housing and rents are cheaper and not an indication of poverty.  

The TK model is attracting buyers that would not otherwise dare to buy a $50-75K house in Dayton or Detroit or Indianapolis.  It's not just the acquisition and rehab of the properties.  It's the level of removal from the tenant pool.  If you never go and drive the neighborhood, your TK provider does the rehab, and you hire a PM, you never have to deal with your product or your customer.  TK has taken this to a whole new level in the low income rentals.

I have never read anything from you that I can disagree with. This post takes the gold. $600-$700 in an SFR in Mid-West cannot make money by definition. It takes $1,000+. Apartments can do well at $600 - $700, but only if you are the manager and manage the hell out of them. It's a tenant class issue, resulting in excessive economic losses, coupled with increased R&M and CapEx.

Everyone wants the magic pill. Good luck :)

@Ann Howell ...Sorry to hear about your experience.  Birmingham is a great market for 20% return.  Keep it moving.  Let me know if I can help.  

Screen, Screen. Screen...It's not a perfect MODEL!!!...

Originally posted by @Charles Worth :

@Ben Leybovich

There is a reason in most other investment or gambling markets there are very clear rules about what you can and can't sell and to whom. There are actions bought every day about that. The reason is because many people don't know better and considering the real lack of reliable information, unlike in say the equity markets, it is a very hard thing to "know" with any certainty as you may know because you do teach people in your courses. 

Much like in other markets I think most people likely know one or two people who made money in the asset class and thus assume they can too.    

I'm not so sure about that.  I think most people entering TK or low income rentals today probably know one or two other people who entered the market in the last few years and haven't been burned yet.  I really doubt that too many know people who've been in the asset class for 10+ years and made real money. Those people don't walk around talking about it.  You'd never have to go out-of-state to find such investors.  There are investors in every town, whether it's Santa Monica or Boston or NYC or Buffalo that have made money in lower income rentals.  Most didn't buy TK.  

I used to have mixed feelings about protecting newbie investors from themselves.  Didn't want someone to lose their little retirement, but didn't think government should interfere.  Now I think that maybe interference might be needed to protect both the tenant and the investor.  

Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich :
Originally posted by @K. marie P.:

My own experience is that the tenant pool paying $600 rents is flawed, doesn't matter what you pay for the property.  A $600-700 housing payment in many, many parts of the country and for many households is a clear sign of poverty level income and/or or lack of income that requires government assistance.  Poverty is a not an indicator of the personal qualities of the tenant.  It's an indicator of the stability of their finances.  Tenant finances impact more than their ability to pay rent. If they can't pay for utilities or have no cash to deal with even the smallest cleanliness or upkeep requirements, or move their non operational vehicle from the yard, that's going to directly affect your property. There are of course exceptions to this, and many people live in rural areas where housing and rents are cheaper and not an indication of poverty.  

The TK model is attracting buyers that would not otherwise dare to buy a $50-75K house in Dayton or Detroit or Indianapolis.  It's not just the acquisition and rehab of the properties.  It's the level of removal from the tenant pool.  If you never go and drive the neighborhood, your TK provider does the rehab, and you hire a PM, you never have to deal with your product or your customer.  TK has taken this to a whole new level in the low income rentals.

I have never read anything from you that I can disagree with. This post takes the gold. $600-$700 in an SFR in Mid-West cannot make money by definition. It takes $1,000+. Apartments can do well at $600 - $700, but only if you are the manager and manage the hell out of them. It's a tenant class issue, resulting in excessive economic losses, coupled with increased R&M and CapEx.

Everyone wants the magic pill. Good luck :)

Interesting.  I have my own number for SFHs in CA markets, and it's definitely more than $1K.  The capex issue with $600 rents is huge.  That kind of rent does not make any sense when it comes to a roof or main line or new HVAC.  Or all three that could happen in a 10 year period.

The newer TK operators have no long term performance data so it's just marketing right now.  Some don't have any direct PM experience or are not connected to experienced PMs so have real numbers on rents collected and maintenance.  To be clear I'm not against TK. Just the lack of understanding of the risk in rentals in general, and in low income rentals in particular.

I'm not sure how this got started but sounds like something went wrong and now the blame game is going on.  Someone also stated that you can't take 15K-30K properties and turn them easily into $600/m rents.  I can tell you from experience that yes you can... I do it constantly.  That leads back to the first.  It all comes down to a matter of due diligence on YOUR part as the investor.  It's not anyone's job to find you a good deal but your own.  So then you say but that's what I hired the TK for or the property manager to do.  Yes that is true but maybe you should have researched that company a little better before you hired them.  Maybe you also hire an independent contractor that specializes in rehab to do a thorough walk through of the property and incentivize him to find as many things wrong with the property that he can factually back up.

The issue with people investing with TK's is I call them lazy investors.  That is not meant negatively in anyway.  I love you guys because that is how I designed my business model to make money and someday I want to be a lazy investor as well.  It simply means that you are more willing to spend your money than your time.  That is the fantasy world where all of the problems start.  It always takes some time involved to manage YOUR business.  If you don't watch your money someone else will and never be as careful with it as you are.  The same thing goes for real estate.  Sure you can buy from a GOOD TK but finding a GOOD TK takes a long time to find.  Same thing with property managers... there are about 9 shady ones compared to 1 good 1.  Everyone is in business to make money and if you don't like what you get shop at another business just like you would for a car.  If you think the salesman is shady talk to someone different.  If you think the car is over priced shop till you find a cheaper one.

I find very often (especially on sites like this) that people like to jump on the band wagon.  If someone tells a horror story about TK's then they all are bad.  If someone bought a city block in Dayton and retired early my market will be flooded with investors and my phone will ring off the hook.  We need to realize that this is MY BUSINESS and if it doesn't make money it is because of something I DID WRONG!  Not because the price of the house was wrong or the TK or the contractor or whatever screwed me.  The greatest thing about a capitalist society is that price dictates what is fair.  If everyone would do their own homework and discover the truth then prices will drop or bad companies will go out of business.  Bad business is paid for by those who didn't take the TIME to do the research and the due diligence to know they were being over charged.

I tell everyone there is 1001 ways for me to make money in RE and even more ways to lose money.  My philosophy as cliché as it may sound is if I can help enough people out I will get what I want.  Constantly I am told I talk to much when I sell or when I'm talking with investors about my projects.  I'm told that I take to much time and give to much info.  I will assure you this... when I'm done with whomever I'm talking to they know exactly what my position is, what I can and can't do, and they KNOW ME.

Lets stop generalizing things.  We get exactly what we pay for most times and our due diligence or lack there of gets us typically what we deserve.  I know I probably didn't make a lot of friends with this one but hey that's what facebook is for... BP is about making money!  If you care to disagree have at it I can take it.  If you agree or would like to learn more about me and my philosophy and how I do what I do send me a connection with a little about you and I will talk with you more.... happy hunting! 

Ozzy Smith, American Dream Investments | [email protected] | (937)572‑7931 | http://www.americandreaminvestments.org | OH Agent # 2015001585

Originally posted by K. marie P.:
Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
Originally posted by K. marie P.:

My own experience is that the tenant pool paying $600 rents is flawed, doesn't matter what you pay for the property.  A $600-700 housing payment in many, many parts of the country and for many households is a clear sign of poverty level income and/or or lack of income that requires government assistance.  Poverty is a not an indicator of the personal qualities of the tenant.  It's an indicator of the stability of their finances.  Tenant finances impact more than their ability to pay rent. If they can't pay for utilities or have no cash to deal with even the smallest cleanliness or upkeep requirements, or move their non operational vehicle from the yard, that's going to directly affect your property. There are of course exceptions to this, and many people live in rural areas where housing and rents are cheaper and not an indication of poverty.  

The TK model is attracting buyers that would not otherwise dare to buy a $50-75K house in Dayton or Detroit or Indianapolis.  It's not just the acquisition and rehab of the properties.  It's the level of removal from the tenant pool.  If you never go and drive the neighborhood, your TK provider does the rehab, and you hire a PM, you never have to deal with your product or your customer.  TK has taken this to a whole new level in the low income rentals.

I have never read anything from you that I can disagree with. This post takes the gold. $600-$700 in an SFR in Mid-West cannot make money by definition. It takes $1,000+. Apartments can do well at $600 - $700, but only if you are the manager and manage the hell out of them. It's a tenant class issue, resulting in excessive economic losses, coupled with increased R&M and CapEx.

Everyone wants the magic pill. Good luck :)

Interesting.  I have my own number for SFHs in CA markets, and it's definitely more than $1K.  The capex issue with $600 rents is huge.  That kind of rent does not make any sense when it comes to a roof or main line or new HVAC.  Or all three that could happen in a 10 year period.

The newer TK operators have no long term performance data so it's just marketing right now.  Some don't have any direct PM experience or are not connected to experienced PMs so have real numbers on rents collected and maintenance.  To be clear I'm not against TK. Just the lack of understanding of the risk in rentals in general, and in low income rentals in particular.

Completely agree! Serge and I wrote this a few months ago and we came up with around $260/month CapEx replacement: http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2015/03/03/why-you-cant-make-money-on-30000-houses/

I am sure we missed a bunch of things, but a $600-$700 SFR rental certainly cannot support that. And coupled with no value add, a characteristic inherent to TK, the IRR is not possible.

To your other point, having reporting and restrictions similar to Reg D PPM would completely stifle this marketplace. I sure do think that folks need protection from themselves...

It's one thing to post about your experience, however, it's another to post about someone that was back stabbed by a partner and then in turn all clients of shared company tarnish an owner. In sense I can speak from experience and personally that 1 owner of BIP and another owner of BIP were not on equal ground. Before you, @Ann Howell point fingers. Make sure you are pointing them in the right direction. 

On a side note: There is ALWAYS a risk when investing in TK properties. Everyone should do their homework and make sure ALL checks out the way you want it to. Come see the properties yourself, ask for the Rafter if you have a Section 8 tenant. Ask for a copy of the HAP, ect. These documents are owed to you as an investor. 

Originally posted by @Account Closed :

It's one thing to post about your experience, however, it's another to post about someone that was back stabbed by a partner and then in turn all clients of shared company tarnish an owner. In sense I can speak from experience and personally that 1 owner of BIP and another owner of BIP were not on equal ground. Before you, @Ann Howell point fingers. Make sure you are pointing them in the right direction. 

On a side note: There is ALWAYS a risk when investing in TK properties. Everyone should do their homework and make sure ALL checks out the way you want it to. Come see the properties yourself, ask for the Rafter if you have a Section 8 tenant. Ask for a copy of the HAP, ect. These documents are owed to you as an investor. 

 Welcome to BP. I would assume you created an account to defend BIP ?  As a professional, no doubt that you are aware that in a partnership all of the partners are 100% responsible regardless of whether they are on equal ground. Your second post is right on about the purchase of any property whether it is a TK or not

Originally posted by @Ozzy Smith :

I'm not sure how this got started but sounds like something went wrong and now the blame game is going on.  Someone also stated that you can't take 15K-30K properties and turn them easily into $600/m rents.  I can tell you from experience that yes you can... I do it constantly.  

Nobody in this thread said you can't turn a $15K-30K house into a $600/mo rental. You absolutely can. I've done that, even in CA. 

What was said is that the $600/mo rent is problematic in the SFH portfolio. Your profile says you started in 2006, took a few years off and are now busy with your current business. Please report back in ten years on the properties in your portfolio that are currently getting $600/mo rents. You'll have real numbers on vacancy, maintenance and capex.

Originally posted by @Account Closed :

It's one thing to post about your experience, however, it's another to post about someone that was back stabbed by a partner and then in turn all clients of shared company tarnish an owner. In sense I can speak from experience and personally that 1 owner of BIP and another owner of BIP were not on equal ground. Before you, @Ann Howell point fingers. Make sure you are pointing them in the right direction. 

On a side note: There is ALWAYS a risk when investing in TK properties. Everyone should do their homework and make sure ALL checks out the way you want it to. Come see the properties yourself, ask for the Rafter if you have a Section 8 tenant. Ask for a copy of the HAP, ect. These documents are owed to you as an investor. 

You can't be serious.  Partners aren't employees or business associates.  Absolutely you will be implicated by any business partner's actions.  Absolutely your reputation is the line. Word of advice:  you don't live it down by accusing your critics of not having facts.  You suck it up and take full responsibility for your alliance with a bad actor.

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