I know that BiggerPockets looks down on guru education programs and seminars that cost thousands of dollars to teach people what they can learn for free on this website. However, I didn't find BiggerPockets until after I was half way through the expensive one-year education and coaching program. One thing my coach told me over and over again was to find investors to partner up with because it didn't matter how much money I personally had to invest, I would eventually run out if I only used my own money. So, over the past few months to a year, I have reached out to several people who are newbies to real estate investing who are looking for a mentor to teach them how to flip houses for profit. I explain to them that I can show them from start to finish a system to learn how to find, fund, rehab, and sell houses for a profit in Arizona. I show them how they will gain experience, credibility, and earn money on the money they invest. But when I tell them that the profit they would make would be 10% APR on their money while it is invested, they become disinterested because they were hoping to make more on their deal. When I see a newbie who wants to partner up and learn how to flip a house for profit and expects to make more on a first deal I think to myself, " Let me get this straight, I spent 75k on a real estate education program which I will never get back and which gave me education but didn't supply me with experience or credibility (having done a profitable deal) and I am offering this to you, plus you get your money back, and you are unsatisfied because it isn't as much as you wanted it to be?" Hummm... I don't know of any education program, college, or institution, that you pay to go to that will teach you a skill to earn lots of money that will then give you your money back plus interest at the end of it. Is there something wrong with my thinking, that someone would be glad to find a mentor to hold their hand through the whole process, and show them a detailed system of how to make money flipping a house, where they would gain experience, credibility, and money and that they should be pleased with that? Or is it that many newbies read posts on success stories of first flips where people made 30 or 40 grand on their first flip and they believe that they should be able to do that also without doing it all on their own? Is it just me, or does it seem some newbies feel entitlement towards earning half of the profits when they come in with a quarter or less of the money for the deal and have no experience? I would appreciate any thoughts. And don't be shy to correct my thinking.

Account Closed "It's not personal. It's just business." I love that part of the movie You Got Mail. I appreciate the feedback. I would say that I'm not so much offended as I am frustrated - probably from my unmet expectations. Because I wish I had had someone to hold my hand along the way when I started and offer to me what I am offering to others, I expect that others would be excited and grateful for the opportunity. So in a way I am doing the same thing. I am expecting something and getting somewhat frustrated with the results just like people who expect something for nothing (or very little) get frustrated when they don't get what they want. Thanks for your insight. And, by the way, if I have come across as condescending to anyone, I would like to sincerely apologize.

Newbies: Eager to learn or Entitled?

Shanna Bechtel

Hummelstown, PA · Member since 2017 · 29 posts · 23 votes

9y

Awesome post. I'm so new I have no deals. I can speak for myself when I say I'd happily give away a half or more of profit to be able to partner with an experienced investor. I'm afraid of the legal ramifications of something is done wrong. Sure I'd like to make more but I don't think it's worth the risk. Maybe for some, they've heard the guru hype phrases of "300% ROI" and "Make $41000 on every house you flip with none of your own money" so much they think anything less is bad?

8 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

Thank you @Shanna Bechtel. I think that there are a lot of things that can go wrong when you are first starting out. For instance, the first flip that I did on my own I lost $5000. If I had partnered with another experience investor, I would have seen why it wasn't a good deal and I wouldn't have done that deal. I would have done a better deal with the investor where I could have made rather than lost money.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

2 Reply

Alex Cordero

Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2016 · 26 posts · 9 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl entitlement gets people nowhere. Fortunately for me, I realized from the start that rei is a time consuming, rigorous and slow, but rewarding process. Just about a year ago I started listening to many different podcasts from B.P, right away noticed all of the successful newbies had one thing in common. Many made less on their first deals, gave away some of their profits in return for learning and growing. I just recently partnered up on my first deal, I know I'm not getting a great return, simply hoping for a small return, while gaining much more knowledge and information.

3 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

Thanks @Alex Cordero. With an expectation that you won't make a lot on your first deal but that you can learn a lot, I think better rehabbers will be more willing to teach you and you will learn a ton.

I set up a lunch appointment with @Marty Boardman in Arizona who did the first podcast. He was gracious enough to be willing to meet with me. Anyway, he said if someone wants to do a deal with him then they need to bring him a deal or money for a deal. That made sense to me. He already has a system that works for him and he doesn't need my help to be successful. But if I wanted to learn then I would have to bring something to the table. Truthfully it was really helpful sitting down with him and he was complementing to what we are doing in real estate. After meeting with him I tightened up our system and it has been a lot better since. So thanks Marty. Again, a great example of what you can learn from an experienced flipper.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

4 Reply

Bevla Reeves

Real Estate Agent · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2011 · 471 posts · 296 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl No offense Shiloh, but it sounds like you were the sucker that paid $75k on REI education (when you could've gotten it for free on BP or WORKING for a mentor) and need to persuade inexperienced newbies to partner with you to be successful!

They're not being "Entitled", they're being wise!

I wouldn't fall for your spiel either! ;)

What you may want to consider doing is just finding good deals and persuading SEASONED investors to partner with you.

If you have the experience and credibility, they will partner with you...simple!

Good luck warrior...anytime you can learn something new you're on the right track! ;)

19 Reply

Bevla Reeves

Real Estate Agent · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2011 · 471 posts · 296 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl "I think that there are a lot of things that can go wrong when you are first starting out." ...you will lose money again at some point, no matter how experienced you are, it's the nature of the game, because you can't control the market!

But be smart in the areas you can control and you'll build a successful business that can absorb the losses. ;)

3 Reply

Bevla Reeves

Real Estate Agent · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2011 · 471 posts · 296 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl you likely would've been better off spending a few hundred dollars joining Marty Boardman's hands-on training program than spending thousands with anyone else. He and Manny actually hold your hand through your first deal if you need them to. The info they share is worth every penny for their affordable program.

...and ask them if they still lose money from time to time...yep! ;)

1 Reply

David Dachtera

Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl

You would do better to learn how to attract and engage private lenders than to simply attempt to engage other newbies whose money will also run out once they have partnered with your first deal together.

My $0.02 ...

3 Reply

Steve Kontos

Investor · Great Neck, NY · Member since 2016 · 679 posts · 467 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl

@Shanna Bechtel

You guys hit the nail right on the head. As someone who has been doing this for a decade now and also educates people, it never ceases to amaze me how people feel a sense of entitlement. They want to not only make good money but not get hit on the risk side either.

This is exactly why when anyone decides that they want to join my team, they are required to go through my educational program FIRST. This is so that we are all on the same page and we are all protected from such mentalities.

Unfortunately people equate real estate investing with quick money. I have said it before and I will say it again; Respect the business and it will do the same for you. That holds true for any industry your in or about to go in. Respect it by learning the craft first, listen intensively, read books, and yes educate yourself with someone who has succeeded in doing what it is you are looking to do.

Appreciate this forum trail. Best of luck!

2 Reply

Douglas Krofcheck

Hudson, NH · Member since 2017 · 70 posts · 47 votes

9y

Originally posted by @Shiloh Lundahl:

Or is it that many newbies read posts on success stories of first flips where people made 30 or 40 grand on their first flip and they believe that they should be able to do

As a newbie, exactly that. As well as not trusting that you're honest. People claim they're making boatloads of money and have retired but keep investing because they like it. Then they claim they're all about giving back to the community and helping others out. Then they ask you for money to learn more. Screw that.

As a programmer, we write a lot of software that is given away for free to improve everyone and everything. There is likely more freely developed software powering this website than paid software and that's excluding the free browser you're using to view it. If it was true that you have enough money and were sincere in giving back to the community, then you'd write up your education plan or make a video of it once, perhaps have the first round of people pay for it to cover the cost of creating it, then you would release the entire thing publicly for free.

But most people don't do that, so we have to wonder if you're really earning the money you say you are or are you just trying to take money from us because you're system isn't that good. If you have enough money, why are you asking for more? If you want to help people out out of the goodness of your heart, why are you asking to be paid? If we aren't to believe the stores of 40K easy flips, why should we believe the stories of an educational program?

I'm seeing people saying one thing then asking for something else, so of course I'm not going to give them my time and money. You want to prove that your educational system is worth it? Put any payments into an escow account and offer a full refund if they don't earn equal to or more than the advertised amount in a specific amount of time. Front all the money for their first project, because you know it's going to make money so why wouldn't you want to increase your income. Your system works doesn't it?

7 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

Thanks so much for your feedback @Bevla Reeves. I absolutely agree, there is a ton of information that I could have learned had I have known about BiggerPockets before I paid for the year-long real estate training. Actually, it was through the program that I was introduced to BiggerPockets by another program participant. And, although I think it is true that a lot of people who spend tens of thousands of dollars on a real estate education program could have learned the information for a lot less elsewhere, I did get a ton out of the training. Mostly through Contacts and connecting with really successful investors. I wish that I had known about Marty Boardman or others that could have mentored me in Arizona before I did the training, but I didn't.

The year before the training I made 17k on 3 flips. The year of the training I made 95k on 6 flips and one seller finance deal and acquired 3 duplexes and 1 SFR in Indianapolis and I learned how to build a system. So, for me the training was worth it, but for others it may not be.

With our system and our resources we can handle up to 6 flips at a time. Partnering with others could help us increase that to 8. I don't really need to partner with others but I am a teacher at heart and I really enjoy helping others become successful and reaching their goals (thus my daytime career as a child and family therapist). So that is why I want to work with newbies and give them something that I wish that I had had when I began. I just don't like it when people just expect to get something for nothing. That is what this post is about.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

6 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

Thanks for you comment @David Dachtera. I agree, attracting private money is a good place to get fund for flips. We just closed on the sale a flip that we did with some of the funds from a private lender and he was really pleased with the the return. He wasn't really interested in learning how to flip though and I thought it would be fun to help others who are interested in learning the process of flipping. But by all means, if there are any private lenders who just want to get returns, we are finding good deals in Arizona. We would be happy to put your capital to good use.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

2 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

Thanks @Steve Kontos for your comments and encouragement. I wish that I had all of the experience that you have. But maybe I will in 10 years.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

0 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

Thank you @Douglas Krofcheck for your response. I totally agree with you that it is hard to trust people, especially if you have been taken advantage of in the past or have experienced a trauma around people not being honest.

I think that I may not have been very clear in my earlier post and you may think that I am selling an educational program. Let me try to be more clear about what I mean by partnering up with newbies looking to invest. It starts with finding a property that has at least 20k of profit in the deal when all is said and done. Then I secure a hard money lender on the deal and I get a bid for the repairs from one of our contractors that we work with. Then I ask if anyone wants to partner up on the deal by putting in 10% of the down to the title company and paying the rehab costs directly to the contractor (half upfront and half at the end). The investor gets a deed of trust on the property and a promissory note at 10% APR while their money is invested. The deal usually lasts 3-6 months and then the investor gets their money back with the interest upon close from the title company at the sale of the property.

When the investor partners with us we show them how to flip the property from start to finish. How we found the property, how we funded the property, how we rehabbed and sold the property. They get to meet everyone we work with from our contractors to our insurance company, our pool man to our landscapers. Why we chose the particular design style, the staging company we use, etc.

The investor gets an educational experience by seeing everything that went into the project and they gain a ton of contacts that they can use on their projects and they can duplicate the system that they just saw. Plus they gain credibility by having done a successful deal. They can present the before and after pictures to show others (like hard money lenders or banks or private investors) a deal that they have done to help them access capital for their projects. Additionally, they get their money back and the interest accrued at the end.

The benefit that I get out of doing this is that I have less money into the deals which allows us to do more deals at the same time. The benefit that the newbie investor gets out of this as I mentioned before is experience, credibility, and money (and they get to hang out with our team members who are pretty cool). We only plan on partnering up with the new investor through a deal or two until they feel comfortable and are ready to do it themselves.

I hope this clears up any misperceptions of what we are doing and why we are doing it.

Again, thank you for your comments and I wish you well as you begin your real estate investing journey.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

5 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 885 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl What program runs $75,000 so we can avoid it?

6 Reply

Anthony GaydenPro Member

Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

9y

I prefer to not work with others.

Podcast Guest on Show #21

2 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

@Account Closed there are several programs that cost 40-50k, and then you can buy the coaching program for 25k and the asset protection program for another 5k or 10k and the funding program for another 5k.

I have seen 3 different ones come to Arizona within the last year.

I went to a 3-day training that cost around $500 where they upsell you on the 1-year program that was going to cost us around 50k but my wife wasn't on board so I didn't. Then my wife went to one by herself out of her own accord and she signed us up for the expensive year program. I was just happy to get my wife on board with it so I didn't put up any resistance. We then together added the other aspects of the training together. We paid for it by selling the rental that we purchased in 2010 that had accumulated around 75k in equity so iwe didn't really feel that expense.

If I knew then what I know now though I would probably have done a local training with Marty Boardman or someone in Arizona. However, it is hard to say that I regret it because the people We met there and the experiences that we had really springboarded us to a new level of goals with our real estate investing.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

0 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

@Anthony Gayden, I'm not sure I know of any aspect of real estate that you can do entirely on your own unless you are your own realtor and contractor or realtor, handyman, and property manager. If I were to play each of these roles it would severely cripple my business seeing that I am not a realtor and I know little to nothing about construction.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

3 Reply

Paul Santos

Sarasota, FL · Member since 2014 · 151 posts · 80 votes

9y

Shiloh Lundahl Entitlement runs rampant today, and I've read too many BP posts where those just starting out and trying to get their first deal want everything for nothing. Too many come into REI with a get rich quick mentality and no knowledge of all the work and due diligence behind me the scenes. When someone has no skin in the deal it's a liability, and they will walk if things go south or they realize REI is too much work. Real Estate is awesome, so many approaches and ways to make money while doing something great for the community and for other people. What you offer and how you are offering it, is your business, and it's something of great value. Requiring skin in the game at only 10% is a bargain and then they get their money back with interest plus the real-time education - priceless. You spent $75k on education, by your own admission you have made that money back and then some. In my book, there is nothing wrong with that. You went with what you knew at the time and acted on it and clearly you are now reaping the benefits. Everyone learns differently, there are some good guru type programs out there, the advantage of these programs is you get everything in a structured and consolidated manner, some people learn better this way. Ultimately, whether pay for your education, self-taught, or learn through a mentorship, acting in your knowledge and making the deals is what matters. You are doing it, so kudos to you.

9 Reply

Sean Kremer

Real Estate Investor · Milford, NE · Member since 2011 · 201 posts · 140 votes

9y

Never beg anyone to work with you...especially a snowflake that needs their hand held. You are bringing the goods to the table, therefor YOU dictate the terms.....If they don't like it tell them you have no time for time wasters and put them in your rear view mirror.

Plus I'm sure you'll have the unmotivated people that only want to get rich quickly.....and when they don't they will blame your faulty teaching and sue you to get all their money back without returning any knowledge.

I would personally only help people that were 110% committed to the business and wouldn't take any money so I was not married to this person and could duck out if things changed.

Some people think the world owes them everything.......stay as far away from these folks as you can get. If your not providing a fair service...people won't look to you for help.....certainly not twice.

Working with the public is not what it used to be.....

2 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

@Paul Santos Thank you for your words of encouragement and validation. The price of education is truely relative. Some people look at an educational program for 75k and think it's way too much. But if you end up meeting someone there who becomes a business partner and you go on to make millions of dollars together, was it too much? Let's say someone is able to go to the same program for $500 but they do nothing with it. Who paid the higher price?

As a therapist, I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on education and trainings beyond my formal education at the university. If I can go to a weekend training that costs $1000 and I can find one or two things that can help me help my clients, then I am happy.

I invest in myself. And the investment I make goes to bless my family, my clients, my colleagues, and those I do business with.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

3 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · West Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 230 posts · 239 votes

9y

There's no room for emotions in business. I learned this the hard way. It seems like you're getting a bit offended that newbies don't want to work with you and you come across as a bit condescending. If someone chooses not to work with you (for whatever reason) move on to the next. Or do the flip solo. If your business model depends on a steady stream of rookies you may want to rethink your system.

Good luck

1 Reply

Guy Gimenez

Investor · Corpus Christi, TX · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl

"Or is it that many newbies read posts on success stories of first flips where people made 30 or 40 grand on their first flip and they believe that they should be able to do that also without doing it all on their own?"

Bingo. Most gurus and other investors tell newly minted investors to just "jump in with both feet" as if this is just a pool party. Therefore, most new investors naturally think, well, how hard can it be. Many find out just how hard it is once they lose what little money they have.

Also, I've literally seen wannabe gurus advertising their mentoring to new investors when the "mentor" has only done one or two deals and knows nothing about the intricacies of this business. When there are no legal standards, anyone can be a guru...and they often try to pass themselves off as such.

Everyone and their half brother is trying to sell to the newbie investor...newbie's are simply being over-sold. Heck, I've seen folks advertising real estate coaching on Fivver for $5.00! It's only natural that people who have no business experience, knowledge or capacity to understand what it takes to succeed in any entrepreneurial endeavor, and are not really following a long-time passion of real estate investing, will believe they can do this easily and quickly without any assistance. And since so many coaches are really not coaches, but are instead marketers, I can't really blame the newbie...they simply don't know what they don't know.

The proof is always in the pudding...and now days proof of one's success is never asked for or offered, hence the reason newbies fail within 90 days and move on to the next distraction (business endeavor) in their life.

4 Reply

Steve Kontos

Investor · Great Neck, NY · Member since 2016 · 679 posts · 467 votes

9y

@Paul Santos

Couldn't agree more. Very well said!

0 Reply

Ashley Hernandez

Yuba City, CA · Member since 2017 · 101 posts · 52 votes

9y

Shiloh Lundahl I think what you are offering is amazing! I wish there were more people like you out there!!! 10% of something is better than 100% of nothing!!!!! I love to learn and if there is some way I am able to make a little that's amazing!!!

1 Reply

Newbies: Eager to learn or Entitled?

Newbies: Eager to learn or Entitled?

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