Top 10 "Must Do's" Before you start Investing Out of State

Top 10 "Must Do's" Before you start Investing Out of State

Rental Property Investor · Seal Beach, CA · Member since 2015 · 132 posts · 187 votes

I live in Pasadena, CA but invest out-of-state because I like the idea of my properties cash-flowing and not having to rely on appreciation. I now purchase multiple properties a week but it was really hard getting to this point. These are some of the lesson's I've learnt along the way. What are some of the lesson's you've learnt along your journey?

  1. Location - City
    • Start at a macro level and make sure your city has both long term and short-term job growth, population growth, low median home values, low days-on-market (DOM), good affordability index, and has a good overall rent-to-own ratio.
  2. Location - Zip Code(s)
    • Fly out to the city, and check out the specific zip codes your looking to invest in. Things can look really good on paper but what do the neighborhoods actually look like. What does the crime rate look like, are new developments coming in or are people moving out? Are shops opening or closing. BTW, if you think $200 is too much to spend flying out to check out your potential location than you probably shouldn't be investing out-of-state to begin with.
  3. Purchase Manager
    • You make your money when you buy and although homes do occasionally pop up on the MLS, the sure way to find a good deal is to market directly to home owners (via 1,000 different ways discussed in a 1,000 other places). Once you contact a home owner you'll need to go out and view the property and negotiate a price. This is where your purchase manager comes in. Finding a good purchase manager isn't easy but a few places to try. A new or part time real estate investor. Or when you plan your visit go during a regularly scheduled REI meetup. At the group announce what you're doing and ask if anyone would like to partner with you and be your "boots on the ground". DO NOT go in asking, go in offering something.
  4. Contractor
    • Believe it or not finding a good contractor is one of the hardest things in the world to do. A good contractor friend of mine once told me, "you can get 2 of 3 things but never all 3 in a contractor. Price, speed, or quality. The reason it's so important to get a contractor even before getting your first house is you'll need to figure out what the rehab is going to cost you. Most mistakes are due to either over-valuating ARV or underpricing repairs. I started with an overpriced top of the line contractor but I don't regret it. Yes, I paid too much but they stuck to their price, didn't have any change orders, and did a great job.
  5. Realtor
    • Although purchasing off-market and possibly holding long term, it's still important to build a relationship with a local realtor who knows the prices of homes inside and out. As mentioned before, make sure you have something to give in return. You can give them listing from not-so-motivated sellers, a flat fee for checking out a home. Going off on a little tangent but don't look for agents who offer BPOs. My experience has been BPOs are worth what you pay for them. Until you learn the market it's worth working with a top-notch realtor who can give you realistic ARV numbers.
  6. Property Manage
    • For the same reason you need a good realtor to give you accurate ARV values you'll need a good property manager to give you accurate rent prices. When you make your trip to the local REI meeting ask everyone who they use and for recommendations
  7. Local Bank
    • It's never too early to start building relationships with local community banks. However, be warned that community banks are just that, banks that service the community. Don't come in from out-of-state looking to start working with them right away. Rather start the relationship by saying, "Yes, I'm from out of state (try not to mention California in first conversation) but I'm here to setup up business, just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I'll be checking in periodically to tell you more about my business".
  8. Mentor
    • This is not mandatory but is definitely worth its weight in gold. Find an established investor already working your target market and let them know what you plan on doing. Negotiate something like half the profit on the first 3 deals or something like that. Make it worth their while. Again, don't ask for something, see what you can give. If you can't find someone in your target area to work with then find someone in your state who invest where your looking to invest and try to partner with them. Bottom line, it's way easier doing it with an experienced investor, no sense re-inventing the wheel.
  9. Flexibility
    • No two markets are alike and real estate investing needs to be fluid. Don't come in with a plan that your unwilling to change, rather be flexible and willing to work with local market conditions. For example, if you are originally looking for 3/2 but find that everyone in your market really want 4/2s than adjust accordingly. Talk to different property management companies and find out what's in high demand and what to stay away from. Find a strategy that works in the local market.
  10. Perseverance
    • So many folks from out-of-state come in with lots of cash, blow it on overpriced homes, lose money, leave, and think it was just "a bad market" or "there was too much competition". Real estate investing works but not without perseverance.  Be prepared to fail but don't quit, get back up and try again.  You will succeed (as long as you start).  
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
8y

Nice post.. few questions.

if your buying 2 homes a week.. that's 110 or so a year.. are you buying then flipping them or are you keeping them all.. and would you be financing all of these in that kind of take down schedule. ?

logistics of 2 loan closings a week seems pretty daunting.. are you paying cash for these then bundling them up for a refi ??? agreesive BRRRR with portfolio lender like Colony or b2R or whatever name they are running under now.?

and tongue in cheek were do you get 200 dollar round trip tickets :)... but I get the point.

buying sight unseen first time out of the gate is and can be highly risky.

I know we like to classify property like they are commercial properties .. but what are you buying C's Bs and you know some markets Cs are Bs in others and Ds in others.

Your spot on with regard to community banks... most have it right in their lending charter they can only loan to those that live and work in the footprint which is usually within 100 miles of the market.

PM is the key and bears repeating.. also remote rehab as you stated can be everything from semi rewarding to down right risky to downright wipe out.. this is why turnkey is so popular granted you can garner some delta between cost and turnkey mark up but you have to have the time and ability to do that and its not realistic for beginners or those buying just a few properties.  

But all in all Very nice post  and keep up the good work... I think your right on target with your message.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Broker · Temecula, CA · Member since 2014 · 994 posts · 783 votes
    8y

    I agree with your list.  You have to be willing to go out and check out the area.  The first step can be done at your computer, but the rest, setting up your team, needs to be done there!  Once it is set up, it will work for you and do wonders. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    Nice post.. few questions.

    if your buying 2 homes a week.. that's 110 or so a year.. are you buying then flipping them or are you keeping them all.. and would you be financing all of these in that kind of take down schedule. ?

    logistics of 2 loan closings a week seems pretty daunting.. are you paying cash for these then bundling them up for a refi ??? agreesive BRRRR with portfolio lender like Colony or b2R or whatever name they are running under now.?

    and tongue in cheek were do you get 200 dollar round trip tickets :)... but I get the point.

    buying sight unseen first time out of the gate is and can be highly risky.

    I know we like to classify property like they are commercial properties .. but what are you buying C's Bs and you know some markets Cs are Bs in others and Ds in others.

    Your spot on with regard to community banks... most have it right in their lending charter they can only loan to those that live and work in the footprint which is usually within 100 miles of the market.

    PM is the key and bears repeating.. also remote rehab as you stated can be everything from semi rewarding to down right risky to downright wipe out.. this is why turnkey is so popular granted you can garner some delta between cost and turnkey mark up but you have to have the time and ability to do that and its not realistic for beginners or those buying just a few properties.  

    But all in all Very nice post  and keep up the good work... I think your right on target with your message.

  • Rental Property Investor · Seal Beach, CA · Member since 2015 · 132 posts · 187 votes
    8y

    Wow @Jay Hinrichs super honored to get your feedback.  Frontier airlines, usually a 3 hour layover but super cheap if you stash your backpack under the front seat and don't care about sitting in the back.  

    I focus on buying at a discount and have different exit strategies depending on the property type, repairs needed, and potential profit margins. For example, if the place needs extensive rehab I'll assign it. If the place just needs a quick paint and carpet I'll close on it, tidy it up and put it on the MLS. If the cash flow looks great I'll keep as a rental or as a long term lease option.

    I purchase Class C properties. 

    Regarding the purchase money.  I now have a good relationship with my local bank so I'll finance some through them if purchasing far enough in advance but 9 out of 10 deals I use private money.  Occasionally when I'm unsure of what I'm going to do with the property I'll purchase with my own cash and re-finance with the bank later.  

  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 1 vote
    8y

    Josh, great list. Thanks a ton for sharing!

    I'm new to BP and real estate in general; I haven't so much as made my first offer yet. I live in L.A. (and after reading David Greene's "Long Distance Real Estate Investing") am convinced out-of-state investing is the best route to achieving my long-term goals. 

    I've been on an education bender since mid-December and haven't seen much on the nuts and bolts of how real estate investors analyze a city's potential. I'd love to learn more about the resources you use when starting "at a macro level" like you mentioned. Thanks! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Seal Beach, CA · Member since 2015 · 132 posts · 187 votes
    8y

    Hi @Isaac Chapman that's so funny that you mentioned @David Greene, we just re-connected yesterday after not talking for the past year.  Still need to read his book :).  Glad to hear you liked it.  

    Regarding the resources I used to look at the Macro level...

    Their is so much info and data out there it's really up to you to decide how deep to dive.  I spent the last 5 years at Chevron (before I quit my job to do real estate investing full time) looking at big data so I probably went a little overboard but here are a few data sources to get you started.

    1. And probably one of my favorites is https://www.zillow.com/research/data/ you can look at as macro as state level all the way to neighborhood (for select neighborhoods only).  

    2. My favorite book on the subject "Big Shifts Ahead" By John Burns.  If this book doesn't blow you away... well it will.  AMAZING graphs and data all around demographics.  

    3. Also, not going to list out all the site but know that you can find it for free on US census sites, the following:

    Business Patterns

    Employments Statistics

    Household Income

    Number of Jobs

    Owner vs Renters

    Personal Income

    Population Change

    Vacant Housing

    You can go really crazy on all the data if you want, just don't get paralysis by analysis.  Taking action and making a small mistake and learning is far better than taking no action at all.

  • Investor · Northern, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 904 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Josh Miller:

    I live in Pasadena, CA but invest out-of-state because I like the idea of my properties cash-flowing and not having to rely on appreciation. I now purchase multiple properties a week but it was really hard getting to this point. These are some of the lesson's I've learnt along the way. What are some of the lesson's you've learnt along your journey?

    1. Location - City
      • Start at a macro level and make sure your city has both long term and short-term job growth, population growth, low median home values, low days-on-market (DOM), good affordability index, and has a good overall rent-to-own ratio.
    2. Location - Zip Code(s)
      • Fly out to the city, and check out the specific zip codes your looking to invest in. Things can look really good on paper but what do the neighborhoods actually look like. What does the crime rate look like, are new developments coming in or are people moving out? Are shops opening or closing. BTW, if you think $200 is too much to spend flying out to check out your potential location than you probably shouldn't be investing out-of-state to begin with.
    3. Purchase Manager
      • You make your money when you buy and although homes do occasionally pop up on the MLS, the sure way to find a good deal is to market directly to home owners (via 1,000 different ways discussed in a 1,000 other places). Once you contact a home owner you'll need to go out and view the property and negotiate a price. This is where your purchase manager comes in. Finding a good purchase manager isn't easy but a few places to try. A new or part time real estate investor. Or when you plan your visit go during a regularly scheduled REI meetup. At the group announce what you're doing and ask if anyone would like to partner with you and be your "boots on the ground". DO NOT go in asking, go in offering something.
    4. Contractor
      • Believe it or not finding a good contractor is one of the hardest things in the world to do. A good contractor friend of mine once told me, "you can get 2 of 3 things but never all 3 in a contractor. Price, speed, or quality. The reason it's so important to get a contractor even before getting your first house is you'll need to figure out what the rehab is going to cost you. Most mistakes are due to either over-valuating ARV or underpricing repairs. I started with an overpriced top of the line contractor but I don't regret it. Yes, I paid too much but they stuck to their price, didn't have any change orders, and did a great job.
    5. Realtor
      • Although purchasing off-market and possibly holding long term, it's still important to build a relationship with a local realtor who knows the prices of homes inside and out. As mentioned before, make sure you have something to give in return. You can give them listing from not-so-motivated sellers, a flat fee for checking out a home. Going off on a little tangent but don't look for agents who offer BPOs. My experience has been BPOs are worth what you pay for them. Until you learn the market it's worth working with a top-notch realtor who can give you realistic ARV numbers.
    6. Property Manage
      • For the same reason you need a good realtor to give you accurate ARV values you'll need a good property manager to give you accurate rent prices. When you make your trip to the local REI meeting ask everyone who they use and for recommendations
    7. Local Bank
      • It's never too early to start building relationships with local community banks. However, be warned that community banks are just that, banks that service the community. Don't come in from out-of-state looking to start working with them right away. Rather start the relationship by saying, "Yes, I'm from out of state (try not to mention California in first conversation) but I'm here to setup up business, just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I'll be checking in periodically to tell you more about my business".
    8. Mentor
      • This is not mandatory but is definitely worth its weight in gold. Find an established investor already working your target market and let them know what you plan on doing. Negotiate something like half the profit on the first 3 deals or something like that. Make it worth their while. Again, don't ask for something, see what you can give. If you can't find someone in your target area to work with then find someone in your state who invest where your looking to invest and try to partner with them. Bottom line, it's way easier doing it with an experienced investor, no sense re-inventing the wheel.
    9. Flexibility
      • No two markets are alike and real estate investing needs to be fluid. Don't come in with a plan that your unwilling to change, rather be flexible and willing to work with local market conditions. For example, if you are originally looking for 3/2 but find that everyone in your market really want 4/2s than adjust accordingly. Talk to different property management companies and find out what's in high demand and what to stay away from. Find a strategy that works in the local market.
    10. Perseverance
      • So many folks from out-of-state come in with lots of cash, blow it on overpriced homes, lose money, leave, and think it was just "a bad market" or "there was too much competition". Real estate investing works but not without perseverance.  Be prepared to fail but don't quit, get back up and try again.  You will succeed (as long as you start).  

     Good Post... No 9 and No 10 resonate with me. I kept getting knocked down, but kept getting back up. I work a full time W2 job, so its important for not to lose focus and stay motivated. There were times when I lost focus, but kept getting back up eventually. Couple of yrs ago, I wanted to do flipping, but now buy and hold is where it seems I have found my sweet spot. And now slowly my portfolio is growing. 

    One question though. Wouldn't 3 and 5 be redundant? What is the point of having 2 different people in that role? A realtor can do a non MLS deal to, you just have to pay him finders fee out of your own pocket. Would like to see if you can shed some light on that.

  • Real Estate Agent · Bay Shore, NY · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 4 votes
    8y

    6i agree with this  whole heartedly. I am starting to look to invest and wholesale in different states and cities another investor said study the areas growth and do this for a whole year.

  • Rental Property Investor · Seal Beach, CA · Member since 2015 · 132 posts · 187 votes
    8y

    Good question @Chinmay J. and without going into to much detail, your realtor and purchase manager could be one and the same person but their skill sets are different.  Your realtor needs to know the neighborhood ARVs, your purchase manager needs to know how to negotiate. 

    Say you worked really hard and mailed out 1,000 pieces of mail, answered 20 phone calls, and finally got one motivated seller who you set an appointment with to purchase their house.  A realtor is trained to go out to the house, give a fair opinion on the price of the house and inform the seller what he/she could sell it for and how long it would take.  The purchase manager that you'll train will go in not even talking about price but trying to figure out what the sellers pain point is.  What's motivating the seller to sell?  While the realtor knows they could always list the property if the price isn't low enough for you to buy, the purchase manager isn't getting paid if they don't get the desired price. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 201 posts · 98 votes
    8y

    Great post and solid list. I'll be adding a couple to mine, especially going to local REIs in the market investing in. I've actually been meaning to do this. 

  • Investor · Northern, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 904 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Josh Miller:

    Good question @Chinmay J. and without going into to much detail, your realtor and purchase manager could be one and the same person but their skill sets are different.  Your realtor needs to know the neighborhood ARVs, your purchase manager needs to know how to negotiate. 

    Say you worked really hard and mailed out 1,000 pieces of mail, answered 20 phone calls, and finally got one motivated seller who you set an appointment with to purchase their house.  A realtor is trained to go out to the house, give a fair opinion on the price of the house and inform the seller what he/she could sell it for and how long it would take.  The purchase manager that you'll train will go in not even talking about price but trying to figure out what the sellers pain point is.  What's motivating the seller to sell?  While the realtor knows they could always list the property if the price isn't low enough for you to buy, the purchase manager isn't getting paid if they don't get the desired price. 

     OK. So based on additional info you have provided, seems that you are using either realtor or purchase manager on a given deal, but not both. If that's the case, we are on the same page.

  • Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Josh

    Excellent job creating a company.  All of your ideas are excellent.  Let me add that you need to be ready and willing to fire a team member and find a new one.  In the past ten years, I have fired six property managers and hired new ones with the latest one this month. I have been investing out of area since 1978.  The biggest reason to fire a PM is because they got too big.  They try to run a PM that is managing 500 units like it was managing 100 units, they did not not know how to scale up.  Also, remember there will come a day when you want to be 100% Passive, which is where I am today.  The extent of my “work” today is approving a repair via email, text or phone call.  And the occasional firing of a PM!

  • Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2016 · 133 posts · 53 votes
    8y

    This post is very helpful. I invest in my hometown while I am overseas, i do know that market but this list gives me more things to look into, thank you!

  • Covina, CA · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 4 votes
    8y

    Great post! If I'm able to find a solid GE and PM then I'm game. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Josh Miller Must-dos? 1. Get on a plane. 2. Get on a plane. 3. Get on a plane. 4. Get on a plane. 5. You can guess... So many people looking at out-of-state deals seem oddly comfortable with buying a property they’ve never seen (in person) in a market they have yet to visit. Which is...crazy talk...at least in my opinion...especially for a first/early purchase! End of sermonizing email on SuperBowl Sunday
  • Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Andrew Johnson, I have owned a rental, bought at an FHA auction, held for 20 years, sold for a nice profit after making LOTS of money in rent, and yet, I NEVER SAW IT IN PERSON. Currently, I own 25 rentals and have personally seen only 6 of them. But then again, I am unique, having previewed in excess of 10,000 homes in my life and reviewed sales documents on over 5,000 transactions. But I am not discounting your advice, for those new to the game, it is better to fly to the property and preview it. HOW did I do it? Having 'boots on the ground' that I trust explicitly. Having appraisals, Home Inspections and Independent property inspections (Broker,PM, Lender, maybe even a friend/family in the area). But it can be done!

  • Yong ParkPro Member
    Investor · Seal Beach, CA · Member since 2017 · 47 posts · 25 votes
    8y

    Great post Josh.  Like so many in southern California, I too am looking outward to invest.  I read David Greene's book cover to cover twice already.  

    I am doing some research on potential places to invest.  I think it would be easier if the location was not on the other side of the country, because I do plan on making occasional visits to meet with "team" members or to assess the community with my own eyes.

    But being a newbie, I will admit that it is scary.  I think once I have picked out one or two places to invest, it will get easier.  But even doing that is not an easy task.

    Thanks!

  • Rental Property Investor · Seal Beach, CA · Member since 2015 · 132 posts · 187 votes
    8y

    Hi @Yong Park, if your ever up in Pasadena give me a shout, or feel free to come to our out-of-state meetup.

  • Yong ParkPro Member
    Investor · Seal Beach, CA · Member since 2017 · 47 posts · 25 votes
    8y

    Hi Josh,  I just joined your meetup.  Lets chat sometime!

  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 49 posts · 16 votes
    8y

    Josh, great post. Really appreciate the detailed and articulate advice - your experience is definitely very impressive!

    @Yong Park I'm in the same boat as you. I live in SoCal, and am researching OOS markets. I'm still in the process of reading David Greene's book, but have been listening to all the BP podcasts he's been on. Would love to connect and maybe we can knowledge share and discuss newbie obstacles.

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