National Renters Rights Plan

Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes

6y

Real estate is politics , from permits to inspections to impact fees . School districts and zoning , etc etc . Its basically rob the rich and give to the poor .

2 Reply

James Wise

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @John Nachtigall:

This forum is not to be used for politics. However this proposed plan is squarely about landlords and renters. So without saying anything about the candidate I thought we could discuss the plan and some of the more interesting aspects. Some of it is pretty standard (rent control, lawyers for tenets, etc.) but some of it is even beyond that.

https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/protecting-empowering-renters

- First thing is I thought it was very interesting that it is a renters plan in the first place. It shows how the country is moving towards renting rather than promoting home ownership.

- it will "entice" the states and localities to accept these laws by offering 500 billion in affordable housing funds. The US spends about 6.4 billion a year in residential construction housing, so a one time 500 billion injection would be off the scale. No realistic way to even spend it if it happened as there would not be enough construction workers to even hire.

- One of the proposals is a new national Tenet Protection Bureau which will "enforce tenants’ rights, take on bad actors, and make sure landlords keep affordable housing affordable for working families". I am pretty sure she means most all the members of BiggerPockets.

- another interesting point is redlining. Something like @James Wise Ultimate Guide to Grading Cleveland Neighborhoods would be illegal under her plan. Any housing policy with "racist effects" would have to be ended. So the identification of class A, B, C, and D neighborhoods, even with the intention to invest in them, could be racist. I know this sounds crazy, it is an amazing piece of logic but the argument would be that investing in class C properties causes gentrification which pushes people of color out which is racist. I have no idea how you would prove any of that in order to prosecute it, but that is in her plan.

- Homelessness...I will just quote this part as I can't do it justice "My Department of Justice will not fund efforts to criminalize homelessness and will deny grant money to police departments who are arresting residents for living outside." Feel free to look at how that has gone for San Francisco

- There is a provision to deny mortgages to "large predatory landlords" by locking them out of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Again not sure how that would work.

- It eliminates rent to own, she calls them land contracts.

- It will require the publishing of individuals names in LLCs

So I am unsure if this is too "political" to discuss on the forums but I thought it contained some very interesting and different plans with respect to renters and landlords and worth the try.

Again, this is not about the politics but the proposed policy. I am interested if you found other parts interesting, it is a very large plan.

Wouldn't be the first time some lunatic made the jump that The Ultimate Guide to Grading Cleveland Neighborhoods was racist red lining. Some schmuck journalist named Brentin Mock wrote a piece of garbage about me and the guide back in 2018.

The Brazen Redlining Happening in Cleveland

All nonsense. Warren's plan, Brentin Mock's article...all of it....Total nonsense.

2 Reply

Mike Dymski

Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes

6y

We need to get used to this paradigm. Social unrest and income inequality is only going to continue to grow.

3 Reply

Brian Garlington

Realtor · Oakland, CA and a Real Estate Investor with Multi-Family Units and a Self Storage Facility · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

6y

Let's just say that it is good to know that there is more than one candidate to choose from :-)

3 Reply

Jad Boudiab

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 255 posts · 248 votes

6y

Originally posted by @John Nachtigall:

This forum is not to be used for politics. However this proposed plan is squarely about landlords and renters. So without saying anything about the candidate I thought we could discuss the plan and some of the more interesting aspects. Some of it is pretty standard (rent control, lawyers for tenets, etc.) but some of it is even beyond that.

https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/protecting-empowering-renters

- First thing is I thought it was very interesting that it is a renters plan in the first place. It shows how the country is moving towards renting rather than promoting home ownership.

- it will "entice" the states and localities to accept these laws by offering 500 billion in affordable housing funds. The US spends about 6.4 billion a year in residential construction housing, so a one time 500 billion injection would be off the scale. No realistic way to even spend it if it happened as there would not be enough construction workers to even hire.

- One of the proposals is a new national Tenet Protection Bureau which will "enforce tenants’ rights, take on bad actors, and make sure landlords keep affordable housing affordable for working families". I am pretty sure she means most all the members of BiggerPockets.

- another interesting point is redlining. Something like @James Wise Ultimate Guide to Grading Cleveland Neighborhoods would be illegal under her plan. Any housing policy with "racist effects" would have to be ended. So the identification of class A, B, C, and D neighborhoods, even with the intention to invest in them, could be racist. I know this sounds crazy, it is an amazing piece of logic but the argument would be that investing in class C properties causes gentrification which pushes people of color out which is racist. I have no idea how you would prove any of that in order to prosecute it, but that is in her plan.

- Homelessness...I will just quote this part as I can't do it justice "My Department of Justice will not fund efforts to criminalize homelessness and will deny grant money to police departments who are arresting residents for living outside." Feel free to look at how that has gone for San Francisco

- There is a provision to deny mortgages to "large predatory landlords" by locking them out of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Again not sure how that would work.

- It eliminates rent to own, she calls them land contracts.

- It will require the publishing of individuals names in LLCs

So I am unsure if this is too "political" to discuss on the forums but I thought it contained some very interesting and different plans with respect to renters and landlords and worth the try.

Again, this is not about the politics but the proposed policy. I am interested if you found other parts interesting, it is a very large plan.

This plan is so impractical in so many ways. And that’s coming from someone who’s all for equality, reasonable assistance, and paying my fair share of taxes. 👎👵

Idealistic theory is like a proforma, and a proforma’s only nice ‘til the roof starts leaking. Confront reality.

3 Reply

Cody L.

Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

6y

She’s a deranged lunatic. An authoritarian nightmare. I’ll peacefully protect by telling her to F off.

If the media and these crop of crazies can scream “orange man bad” all day every day, I can quietly ignore their unconstitutional demands.

(But not being political of course)

5 Reply

Alex G.

Eastern Mass & Central Maine · Member since 2009 · 252 posts · 135 votes

6y

"...a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants - which would make them eligible for public housing benefits."

Nod bad - for illegals.

0 Reply

John Nachtigall

OP

Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2017 · 325 posts · 701 votes

6y

I understand this is a political "wish list" if you will. So I can understand something unrealistic like calls for rent control despite the overwhelming evidence it does not work. It is the "candy bar" of public policy, it is easy to sell but only makes the problem worse. It has a short term help and a long term loss. In a political campaign you only care about the selling not the effectivity and you care about the short term. That makes sense.

But some of these things are just beyond the pale. Government owned housing projects were an abject failure that exposed thousands of poor but otherwise honorable citizens to literal imprisonment but without the guards for protection. They were torn down by a Democratic President (Clinton) because they were so bad. Even today they are failures.

The New York City Housing Authority (NYCHA) is the largest public housing authority in North America. It has 400,000 residents and is considered the "most successful" authority in the country. It pled guilty to a federal lawsuit where they admitted to training maintenance workers to hid problems. Things like exposing thousands of children to lead paint, turning off the water to hide leaks and building false walls to hide the holes. Remember this is the "best" authority in the country.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/manhattan-us-attorney-announces-settlement-nycha-and-nyc-fundamentally-reform-nycha

And even now, they stink. They can't even provide heat to the tenets

https://gothamist.com/news/more-10000-nycha-tenants-go-without-heat-hot-water-largest-single-day-outage-season

So I don't understand how anyone who wants to help the poor would propose more of this? Add 500 million to section 8 housing vouchers would make way more sense. But public housing has been a bane to the very people you hope to help and even today the "best" example is terrible.

I just don't get it.

1 Reply

Dan H.Pro Member

Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes

6y

The swing left is a response to the Trump Administration.

Two party system encourages the extremes. The democrats do not want anyone too conservative and the Republicans do not want anyone too liberal. The moderate politicians have difficulty making it through the primaries.

It is getting more extreme. Policies put forth from mainstream Democratic candidates such as Warren and Sanders just 3 years ago would have seem very left and too left to win the primary.

I see it from both parties. Opposite ends of extremes is where the parties are headed. My vote will be going to someone more moderate, but I fear that I will be in the minority.

2 Reply

Anthony Rosa

Rental Property Investor · New York City · Member since 2019 · 703 posts · 538 votes

6y

Originally posted by @John Nachtigall:

I understand this is a political "wish list" if you will. So I can understand something unrealistic like calls for rent control despite the overwhelming evidence it does not work. It is the "candy bar" of public policy, it is easy to sell but only makes the problem worse. It has a short term help and a long term loss. In a political campaign you only care about the selling not the effectivity and you care about the short term. That makes sense.

But some of these things are just beyond the pale. Government owned housing projects were an abject failure that exposed thousands of poor but otherwise honorable citizens to literal imprisonment but without the guards for protection. They were torn down by a Democratic President (Clinton) because they were so bad. Even today they are failures.

The New York City Housing Authority (NYCHA) is the largest public housing authority in North America. It has 400,000 residents and is considered the "most successful" authority in the country. It pled guilty to a federal lawsuit where they admitted to training maintenance workers to hid problems. Things like exposing thousands of children to lead paint, turning off the water to hide leaks and building false walls to hide the holes. Remember this is the "best" authority in the country.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/manhattan-us-attorney-announces-settlement-nycha-and-nyc-fundamentally-reform-nycha

And even now, they stink. They can't even provide heat to the tenets

https://gothamist.com/news/more-10000-nycha-tenants-go-without-heat-hot-water-largest-single-day-outage-season

So I don't understand how anyone who wants to help the poor would propose more of this? Add 500 million to section 8 housing vouchers would make way more sense. But public housing has been a bane to the very people you hope to help and even today the "best" example is terrible.

I just don't get it.

"Government owned housing projects were an abject failure that exposed thousands of poor but otherwise honorable citizens to literal imprisonment but without the guards for protection". - Ever wonder why NYPD has its own division just for nyc housing??..Or why maintenance cant keep up with cleaning.

0 Reply

Colleen F.Pro Member

Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes

6y

Nuts, she does not have a reasonable path to pay for this program. While I have no objection to coming down hard on substandard housing most of the other provisions are over the top. Particularly project housing, the issue is that good residents are terrorized by the druggies and criminals in these projects. I saw it in NJ and in Phoenix and now both complexes were torn down in favor of other options. The bad actors had the same disregard for neighbors and community and I am sure it was difficult or no one made the effort to get them out. I also can't help but resent providing homes for people who aren't even trying to provide homes for themselves, they set other priorities. That said her policies are socialist and I can only hope more moderation will prevail.

As for rent control, how about some tax control.

2 Reply

Amit M.

Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

Warren’s renters protection plan reads a lot like the legislation San Francisco has been busy passing for the last 20+ years. It’s just amazing to see what I normally read in my very “local” news now proffered as potential national policy!

I definitely believe that the election of Trump has über galvanized the left. Even in CA, I have my doubts if the recent statewide rent control (1461) would have happened if we had a normal republican presidency. Personally I’m also for moderate Democrats, and I think that warren and sanders are bat sh!t crazy. And it seems to me that the nation is not ready for those kinds of policies either...yet. BUT, as millennial and post millennial voters start to dominate the ballot box, I’m not so sure that this moderate perspective will hold out. Climate change, extreme student debt, super expensive housing in major metros, continuing wealth inequality....who knows...I wouldn’t be surprised if upcoming generations take a hard turn to the left. Technology, democratization of an individuals ability to hold government accountable, etc. may rejuvenate the socialist-left ideologies which largely failed decades past.

May you live in interesting times.

1 Reply

Cody L.

Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @John Nachtigall:

I understand this is a political "wish list" if you will. So I can understand something unrealistic like calls for rent control despite the overwhelming evidence it does not work. It is the "candy bar" of public policy, it is easy to sell but only makes the problem worse. It has a short term help and a long term loss. In a political campaign you only care about the selling not the effectivity and you care about the short term. That makes sense.

But some of these things are just beyond the pale. Government owned housing projects were an abject failure that exposed thousands of poor but otherwise honorable citizens to literal imprisonment but without the guards for protection. They were torn down by a Democratic President (Clinton) because they were so bad. Even today they are failures.

The New York City Housing Authority (NYCHA) is the largest public housing authority in North America. It has 400,000 residents and is considered the "most successful" authority in the country. It pled guilty to a federal lawsuit where they admitted to training maintenance workers to hid problems. Things like exposing thousands of children to lead paint, turning off the water to hide leaks and building false walls to hide the holes. Remember this is the "best" authority in the country.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/manhattan-us-attorney-announces-settlement-nycha-and-nyc-fundamentally-reform-nycha

And even now, they stink. They can't even provide heat to the tenets

https://gothamist.com/news/more-10000-nycha-tenants-go-without-heat-hot-water-largest-single-day-outage-season

So I don't understand how anyone who wants to help the poor would propose more of this? Add 500 million to section 8 housing vouchers would make way more sense. But public housing has been a bane to the very people you hope to help and even today the "best" example is terrible.

I just don't get it.

Crazy that the government can't do it right, given that they don't have the same restrictions around having to make a profit. They can just spend as much as they want on the problem. "Broken heater? Call a $$$ union guy to just put in all new everything". Where as your local small landlord has to find some dude, go to home depot and buy one and possibly do it himself

0 Reply

Curtis BidwellPro Member

Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 777 posts · 744 votes

6y

This is time for everyday landlords to get involved in direct communication with your local city counsels and state legislators. Don’t assume someone else will tell your side of the story. As landlords we don’t create a shortage of housing, but we can help provide it if those passing laws don’t impede our ability -and in the process create more shortage.
I attended a city counsel last week and spoke personally to 2 council members who had not heard directly from housing providers like us. I spoke on a panel of landlords this week before state and local housing workers along with several agencies (sec 8, shelter reps, rapid rehousing, etc). I got several invitations from policy makers to talk further.
We need to be telling our stories and showing how theses laws and other restrictions hurt the very people they are trying to help.

Podcast Guest on Show #95

0 Reply

James Wise

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes

6y

It's insane to me how many people think that real estate and politics are unrelated. In one of my live eviction videos I made a comment (some say dig lol) at the left. I've received 100's of comments to the effect of "was here to watch a video then I got mad that you said that because politics don't belong here blah blah blah."

Wake up folks. Political policy can totally change the way we do business.

1 Reply

Mary M.

Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

6y

The truth is that some greedy lanlords make it very difficult for the rest of us. Due to folks buying rentals, jacking rents up and booting tenants rent control and a variety of other policies are now law in oregon and california.

IMO we, as landlords, need to figure out a way to protect our interests while being fair to our customers.... otherwise things will get worse for us.

As for lobbying, rental owners associations , apartment owners associations, etc exist for lobbying reasons... join these groups and participate.

We live in a very polarizd time, and IMO the way forward is to the middle where the most benefit, not the extremes where only a few do.

1 Reply

James Wise

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Mary M.:

The truth is that some greedy lanlords make it very difficult for the rest of us. Due to folks buying rentals, jacking rents up and booting tenants rent control and a variety of other policies are now law in oregon and california.

IMO we, as landlords, need to figure out a way to protect our interests while being fair to our customers.... otherwise things will get worse for us.

As for lobbying, rental owners associations , apartment owners associations, etc exist for lobbying reasons... join these groups and participate.

We live in a very polarizd time, and IMO the way forward is to the middle where the most benefit, not the extremes where only a few do.

Nothing wrong with increasing rents. The market dictates what rent amount is fair, nothing else. Landlords should charge the absolute maximum that the market will allow.

1 Reply

Dan H.Pro Member

Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Mary M.:

The truth is that some greedy lanlords make it very difficult for the rest of us. Due to folks buying rentals, jacking rents up and booting tenants rent control and a variety of other policies are now law in oregon and california.

IMO we, as landlords, need to figure out a way to protect our interests while being fair to our customers.... otherwise things will get worse for us.

As for lobbying, rental owners associations , apartment owners associations, etc exist for lobbying reasons... join these groups and participate.

We live in a very polarizd time, and IMO the way forward is to the middle where the most benefit, not the extremes where only a few do.

> Due to folks buying rentals, jacking rents up and booting tenants ...

The usual process is buy rentals, add value via rehab or other value add, move rents to an appropriate level for the location/condition of the unit (I.e set to market rent), tenants choose to leave because they cannot afford to live in the rehabbed units at fair market rent.

Whose description do you think better reflects reality?

Without rehabs, units would become dilapidated and lose value. This poor condition and reduced value is why the tenants are in the unit at lower rent than rehabbed units.

In the Ca market, small unit count RE is cash flow negative at purchase. The value add is the primary way to generate any profit in the near term of the purchase time.

1 Reply

Llewelyn A.

Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes

6y

@Dan H.

@Mary M.

Not singling out both of you, but I just thought I would include you both here.

There are a LOT of unscrupulous Investors in Real Estate and how they operate is incredibly illegal and makes it very bad for Investors like me who follow the law.

An example would be the case of an Investor that buys a "rent controlled building," for DIRT cheap, harrasses the tenants, including not making required repairs, to get them to move out and then in turn, forcing appreciation illegally while benefiting from the benefits (such as lower property tax) that the tax payers have given that investor to be entrusted and a good steward of the renters in a rent controlled building.

There are even cases where the Landlord burnt down his rent controlled building to vacate it, reaping huge rewards years later.

What this does to legit Investors like me who DO NOT BUY rent controlled buildings because of all of the requirements by law, is put us at a deep disadvantage of making money the sure and slower way because we pay close to market Price for our market rate buildings, which is EXTREMELY expensive compared to the rent controlled building.

It is ENTIRELY unfair to both the tenants of those buildings AND legit Investors like me who refuse to break the law, harass tenants, etc. in order to break the limited revenue that the rent controlled buildings are under which is WHY they were cheap in the first place.

In fact, what some of these landlords were doing was filing cases that just did not exist, knowing that a percentage of the tenants could not show up either because of medical, work or other reasons and would win a default judgement.

It was so bad because the amount of cases that were presented in court backlogged NYC Housing Courts that it would have affected my own legit cases should I have one by causing these cases to be seen much later than would be normal.

I don't agree with the characterization that ALL landlords are bad.... but it would equally be a mis-characterization to say that ALL landlords are good.

The problem here is that the bad landlords affect people's lives. When that happens, there will be an over-reaction.

What we are seeing now, is a COMPLETE over-reaction to a very small percentage of bad landlords. HOWEVER, this was compounded because those bad landlords maybe FEW, but they tend to own a LARGE percentage of the rent controlled buildings.

Unfortunately, legit landlords like me (and I'm sure most of us here on BP), are suffering from an UNDERSTANDABLE over-reaction towards BAD Landlords.

I wish they can retroactively punish those bad landlords but unfortunately, those bad landlords know exactly how to protect themselves, and this is probably why there is such an over-reaction.

I really don't blame Liberals... I blame the bad Landlords. If the renters who were negatively affect had gotten Justice, we would not be in this situation of impending Universal Rent Control.

If the rent controlled building Landlords were to just do the bare minimum but stay within the law, we would not be at this point where we may wind up with Universal Rent Control.

1 Reply

Dan H.Pro Member

Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes

6y

If someone buys rent controlled units they should be aware of the regulations.

However, Changing regulations are problematic. Try to anticipate the best you can. It is difficult because there is local, state, and national level politics involved.

I could purchase in the most LL friendly location in the country but state or national regulations can be enacted to impact my investment. I personally am expecting national level rent control in the next 10 years. I hope they are not so onerous to make RE a poor investment option.

0 Reply

Amit M.

Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

@Llewelyn A. as someone who deals with the tragic-comical effects of rent control on a regular basis in San Francisco, I see the situation somewhat differently. In short, I don’t think that the bad actor landlords are the root of the problem, for they represent a tiny fraction of overall bldg ownership. Sure they capture high profile media coverage due to their insane and asinine treatment of tenants, but eventually they are caught and harshly punished by the city DA. Most landlords become adept at operating within the margins of local law, and tenants willing to play the game embrace a mafioso attitude to obtain buy outs lucrative enough for them to make a move. One way or another, it all gets factored into the value of the property.

The main issue is that market rents in impacted cities have shot up significantly, compounded by working class neighborhoods getting quickly gentrified. It’s both a supply and demand problem: demand leads to gentrification and the limited supply of market rate housing leads to rent escalation. Of course the “solution” is mired in politics and social policy. Some (call them practical-ists) say just build a sh!t ton of new housing and market will correct itself. NIMBYs are against that, environmental and city infrastructure advocates are against that, and zoning restricts that too (although in CA there are efforts to override city zoning jurisdiction.) Others (liberals and often local politicians) push for rent control and other property/landlord restrictions. Still others (property owners) think that renters don’t have a god given right to live in a certain community in perpetuity if they can’t afford the new market rents. And so the saga continues.

0 Reply

Llewelyn A.

Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes

6y

@Amit M.

I have to point out that Bernie Sanders AND A.O.C. are from NYC. Both are VERY familiar with the machinations of the bad actors in the Real Estate field.

It really is a problem that should NOT have every occurred and because it was certainly very prevalent, here in NYC especially, you will create leaders who will want to put a stop on these kinds of bad actors.

It's very similar in the way that we should not abandon our Allies as you will create more enemies.

In this case, the Rent-Controlled Renters are our Allies but they felt abandoned, at least, here in NYC.

Again, these bad actors have also made it difficult for me to maximize my own profits on legitimate Market Rate Buildings as they illegally added market rate supply of buildings that should not have become Market rate.

IF they did not get away with their bad behavior, I would have certainly have done even better than I have already done over the last 21 years I have been investing in NYC Real Estate.

To me, these bad actors stole my profits and opportunities as a result of shifting the mindset of the renter class to be anti-Landlord while they reaped the illegal gains.

Again, I am not saying ALL Landlords are bad.... but certainly "All Landlords are Good" is untrue.

AND, as I pointed out, many of the bad landlords controlled a significant share of rent controlled apts to make a difference in our political atmosphere.

We are in our potential Universal Rent Control situation for a reason that could have been prevented. If the Bad Actors didn't get away with it for the most part, I doubt we would have been looking down the tube of the Renter's Grass Roots Gun.

0 Reply

Dan H.Pro Member

Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes

6y

In the very near term, I do not see rent control laws making it though the senate. 10 years from now may be a different situation. Currently the huge rent appreciation is a trait of a minority number of states. Furthermore, some states are anti government regulations.

Renters grass root efforts will need to be content with working at the state level in liberal states such as NY, CA, WA, OR, etc. these also happen to be some of the states that historically have experienced the highest rent appreciation. U

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National Renters Rights Plan

National Renters Rights Plan

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