Tired of people ripping on Detroit
Most Popular Reply
Detroit's an interesting market. Local knowledge is critically important when it comes to investing. The city of Detroit has huge problems. There is a financial manager that has been brought in to stabilize it financially which is something that many have thought is long overdue. He has the power to make radical changes that the mayor and council frankly weren't up to. So that's probably a good thing, though it may be very contentious if big changes are implemented.
The city of Detroit is not monolithic. It's 139 square miles (equal to SF, Boston and Manhattan combined). Many neighborhoods are blown out, abandoned and crime-ridden. Some are full of historic homes from the glory days -- opulent Tudors, restored Victorians and Craftsman styles from 1000 to 10,000 sqft. There's an exceptional modernist neighborhood designed by architect Mies Van der Rohe. Woe to the investor who buys without knowing what's what, whether local or out-of-area. Some have invested foolishly and lost everything.
Yet there is opportunity. Homes in Woodbridge and Corktown are selling in the first week on market. The residential occupancy rate Downtown is 97%. New developments and restorations are leased up immediately. There are numerous multifamily new-build and loft conversions in the Midtown area, home to Wayne State University, the medical center complex and the museums, aimed at filling increased demand (low single-digit vacancy rates here as well).
Then there are the suburbs where crime, schools and population decline are not issues. Rents that are 2% - 3% of asset value are still not that hard to find in lower-middle class areas, despite being a seller's market in most areas. This is where long-distance investors ought to be looking, not in the city. The returns are slightly less (still good) but the headaches are much reduced. For some reason though, the turnkey guys seem to concentrate on Detroit. Probably because that's what out-of-area investors hear about, and that's where the turnkeys can pickup houses dirt cheap in bad areas.
We don't have much interest from the hedge funds. That cuts both ways. They're not buying up all the inventory which makes it easier to invest as a little guy, but the reason they're not buying here is because they seek areas with higher predicted job growth. Forecasts for SE Michigan are pretty flat. The auto industry is booming, and the companies are making a bunch of money due to their lower cost structure, but they're doing it with fewer people, both on the white-collar and blue-collar side.
Bottom line, there's opportunity here but it requires some intelligent decision-making.
27 Replies
- 13ySeth WilliamsPro MemberSpecialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2012 · 583 posts · 353 votes
I hear you Scott W.. I'm not a Detroit native, but I know the metro area is huge and it has a pretty big ripple effect that hits my part of the state as well.
The auto industry has seen a huge turnaround over the past couple of years and it's really starting to show. It's unfortunate that Detroit's "war zone" neighborhoods have come to be how many people perceive the city (because it just isn't true). There are some nasty places downtown, but just as well - there are a lot of really nice areas that are great to invest in.
I'm excited to see what things will look like as the next 5 years pan out. Seems to me like there will be a pretty nice upswing (at least we can hope for it).
- Investor · Howell, MI · Member since 2011 · 202 posts · 52 votes13y
Hi Scott W. I appreciate your post! Yes it's frustrating to see people rip on Detroit, especially here on BP. But frankly, I don't say too much to counter the opinions on BP because I don't want any more competition in my market; it's tough enough out there!
Our market is on fire, and I'm doing my best to lock-in whatever I can. Don't draw attention to our market, have confidence in your business model, and buy, buy, buy!
Best of luck to you.
- Involved In Real Estate · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2010 · 812 posts · 178 votes13y
I'm still waiting to find a statistic that shows 50% population decline in metro detroit as reported by Chris Clothier at last years bigger pockets seminar.
People who are bashing michigan are clueless. Theres a reason my entire generation is moving back in droves. We were forced away after graduation and all are moving home because these other areas don't compare.
- 13yChris ClothierBusiness MemberRental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Hey Joe Delia -
I don't recall having met you last year at the Summit, but I'm glad you heard my talk. Just a quick bit about me, I don't spout off data for the hell of it and I don't talk from a "clueless" point of view. What I said then and I still believe today, is that I would not personally invest in Detroit nor would I suggest other investors buy property there. I do my own research, and my research tells me that I can find better cities for long-term buy & hold - personally.
You of course are in Detroit like the other commentators on here and you guys are way more informed with the on-the-ground knowledge that helps you find success there. Like Geof Greeneisen said - that means more investment deals for you guys...and if you love the city, by all means, invest in what you know. But for me, I did my research and I'm personally not interested and my advice to investors was to do their economic research first as well. My advice was to forget the properties view where the city will be down the road from an economic standpoint first. Then if you like what the research tells you, start looking for partners and then look at houses. I still give that advice today, and again for the record, I don't like Detroit for my portfolio but i love that you local guys defend it and stand up for it.
Now, just FYI, here are links to articles before and after my talk and I am copying an article printed less than 60 days ago...this article describes exactly what I saw in the city and exactly what was explained to me about the investment reality on the ground.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/detroit-shrinking
DETROIT, Feb 19 (Reuters) - Imagine a city with open space larger than the size of Paris, where people are planting hardwood trees and vegetable gardens, and neighbors have plenty of room to spread out.
It would sound so idyllic, if only it weren't Detroit.
The open space is largely abandoned land, the lack of neighbors the result of an inexorable exodus, the planting the work of residents striving to stop the blight from spreading.
America loves a big comeback, but Detroiters harbor few illusions. For many here, it's about salvaging what remains of a once-great city.
Throughout its long decline, Detroit has sought ways to restore to its former glory a city that was home to 1.8 million people, pinning its hopes on grandiose plans for the automotive industry or casinos.
With just 700,000 people left, ambitions are now focused on making less populated neighborhoods viable and repurposing land, perhaps for urban farming. Where the cash-strapped city can't provide, grassroots groups and investors help fill the gaps.
"What everyone wants is new neighbors," said Khalil Ligon, project manager for the Lower East Side Action Plan (LEAP), a nonprofit focused on some 15 square miles of the city where 55,000 people live. "But where are you going to get them?"
The falling population is one of Detroit's biggest problems. Detroit Future City, a planning blueprint, assumes just 600,000 residents. Launched by Mayor Dave Bing, the plan aims to revamp the economy and use empty space. The Kresge Foundation, started by the Detroit family behind retail giant Kmart, has promised $150 million toward the project.
"It's certainly the most realistic plan the city has ever had," said Margaret Dewar, a University of Michigan planning professor in Ann Arbor.
Neighborhood groups are also pitching in. Dave Szymanski, deputy treasurer for Wayne County, which includes Detroit, says "we've never seen this much energy at the grassroots level."
Though the lack of jobs remains the root cause of the city's problems, Detroit's downtown is enjoying something of a business revival led by mortgage lender Quicken Loans, whose owner and fellow business leaders are financing all but $25 million of a $140 million streetcar line.
Still, unemployment is stubbornly high at around 18 percent, more than twice the rate for the country as a whole.
HOMES, AND HOPES, FORECLOSED
Reinventing a struggling city is a tall order. Finances are so fragile that Michigan Governor Rick Snyder, a Republican, may soon appoint an emergency financial manager to take over Detroit's accounts. Such a manager could in turn recommend that the city file for bankruptcy, which would be the largest ever Chapter 9 municipal bankruptcy in the United States.
In a desperate effort to avoid that fate, the Bing administration has cut spending, laid off city employees, and cut wages and benefits for the rest. Bing says cash flow is now stable, but Detroit needs investment by the state to thrive.
"We cannot cut our way of this situation," Bing told Reuters. "We've got to talk about growth."
Governor Snyder says Detroit's main problem is its finances and stresses that he wants to focus investment on transportation and other projects that will help the local economy. "I don't want to forget the people in the neighborhoods."
Bing's revival plan will end up in the hands of the emergency manager, should one be appointed. "If the emergency manager buys into the long-term vision of the plan, it has a chance. But if their brief is just to cut costs and services, it doesn't have a chance," said Dewar, the University of Michigan professor.
Already, police services have been cut back in the city, especially in less populated areas. Some precincts have been merged and are closed, or are in "virtual mode" overnight - there's a number to call.
The number of murders per 100,000 people in Detroit in 2012 put the city's murder rate at around 10 times the national average. Even so, says Bing, persuading people in mostly deserted areas to move to denser areas, where there is "safety in numbers," is a challenge.
The population continues in flux because of another acute problem for Detroit - the foreclosure crisis. As many as 42,000 of Detroit's estimated 380,000 homes could go to auction this fall.
The ongoing decline of poor neighborhoods while downtown revives points to the sensitive subject of race, in a city that is 83 percent black and has lived through race riots in the 1940s and 1960s.
Poor services and the possibility that a state-appointed manager will take over the city have fueled frustration among African Americans, community leaders say.
"It is one thing to feel ignored, it is another to feel betrayed," said Pastor D. Alexander Bullock of Rev. Jesse Jackson's Rainbow PUSH Coalition. "Once people lose faith in the process, the only response will be to destroy it."
PLANTING AGAINST POLLUTION
Driving around Detroit's emptier areas, blocks with one house or a few homes left are a common sight. But they are often well maintained, with cut grass and potted plants out front: No matter how many people have left, for those that remain this is still home.
There are also an estimated 2,000 city gardens, which environmental activist Shea Howell says popped up years before the idea of urban farming surfaced. "They are operated extra-legally or illegally, but the city has bigger things to worry about than going after someone raising a few chickens," she said.
Kirk Mayes of the Brightmoor Alliance, in one of the city's poorest areas, says there are 200 community gardens in Brightmoor alone.
As farming is imagined for Detroit's future, abandoned land would provide fruit and vegetables to the city's inhabitants, for whom fresh food is often not accessible because grocery stores are few and far between.
City and county officials have no hard figures on the number of empty plots and abandoned homes, and estimates vary wildly, going as high as 100,000. "What's clear is we have space for a million people who are no longer there," Szymanski said.
Much of that land could revert to scrub land or, as part of Detroit Future City's vision, become "blue-green" corridors to reduce pollution and help drainage in a city with an inadequate, ancient sewer system that cannot handle storm water.
- Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes13y
According to Wikipedia (which cites the census bureau as the source for the data), the population of Detroit the city was 1,849,568 in 1950. In 2010 is was 713,777. That's a 61% decline. That cannot happen without generating a bunch of surplus housing.
Now, the MSA (metropolitan statistical area) has gone from 3,219,256 to 4,490,902 in 1970 to 4,296,250 in 2010. So that story is much less bleak.
I do think the American automotive industry has make a lot of progress. My most recent purchase was a Ford, the fifth Ford I've owned.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes13y
Who cares what people say. If you can make money keep on doing it and let people say whatever makes them feel better.
- Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes13y
I think the issue especially for out of state investors is looking at economic data that doesn't make them feel comfortable with the risk and reward ratio.
I live in Georgia and there are certain parts of the Atlanta city I won't invest because they are old dumpy houses with tons of problems that need to be scraped and high property taxes. The dumps were valued at 200k with collusion at the height of the market with appraisers and are now at 20k. Fulton county still has crazy assessment of 2,000 to 3,000 a year in taxes so the taxes alone eat up almost any cash flow.
I remember Detroit have really high taxes on those houses that were low priced. I looked there years ago but high taxes and a bunch of work from afar on a property didn't appeal to me. The carrying costs alone and code violation fines etc. just didn't make it worthwhile from what I saw.
The old saying "one man's trash is another's treasure". As investors it is all what you see value in. There are investors that thrive on war zones allover the country and then there are investors who stay away like the plague. Atlanta still hasn't decreased property tax appeals that have been under review for in some cases 2 years! The city is delaying on purpose until the economy improves so they can hoard the money and then give a retroactive tax credit when their books can handle it. they know many will just eventually give up on the appeal as things get better.
Detroit's an interesting market. Local knowledge is critically important when it comes to investing. The city of Detroit has huge problems. There is a financial manager that has been brought in to stabilize it financially which is something that many have thought is long overdue. He has the power to make radical changes that the mayor and council frankly weren't up to. So that's probably a good thing, though it may be very contentious if big changes are implemented.
The city of Detroit is not monolithic. It's 139 square miles (equal to SF, Boston and Manhattan combined). Many neighborhoods are blown out, abandoned and crime-ridden. Some are full of historic homes from the glory days -- opulent Tudors, restored Victorians and Craftsman styles from 1000 to 10,000 sqft. There's an exceptional modernist neighborhood designed by architect Mies Van der Rohe. Woe to the investor who buys without knowing what's what, whether local or out-of-area. Some have invested foolishly and lost everything.
Yet there is opportunity. Homes in Woodbridge and Corktown are selling in the first week on market. The residential occupancy rate Downtown is 97%. New developments and restorations are leased up immediately. There are numerous multifamily new-build and loft conversions in the Midtown area, home to Wayne State University, the medical center complex and the museums, aimed at filling increased demand (low single-digit vacancy rates here as well).
Then there are the suburbs where crime, schools and population decline are not issues. Rents that are 2% - 3% of asset value are still not that hard to find in lower-middle class areas, despite being a seller's market in most areas. This is where long-distance investors ought to be looking, not in the city. The returns are slightly less (still good) but the headaches are much reduced. For some reason though, the turnkey guys seem to concentrate on Detroit. Probably because that's what out-of-area investors hear about, and that's where the turnkeys can pickup houses dirt cheap in bad areas.
We don't have much interest from the hedge funds. That cuts both ways. They're not buying up all the inventory which makes it easier to invest as a little guy, but the reason they're not buying here is because they seek areas with higher predicted job growth. Forecasts for SE Michigan are pretty flat. The auto industry is booming, and the companies are making a bunch of money due to their lower cost structure, but they're doing it with fewer people, both on the white-collar and blue-collar side.
Bottom line, there's opportunity here but it requires some intelligent decision-making.
- Investor · Howell, MI · Member since 2011 · 202 posts · 52 votes13y
Well said Tom A.!
- Involved In Real Estate · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2010 · 812 posts · 178 votes13y
Originally posted by Chris Clothier:
Hey Joe Delia -I don't recall having met you last year at the Summit, but I'm glad you heard my talk. Just a quick bit about me, I don't spout off data for the hell of it and I don't talk from a "clueless" point of view. What I said then and I still believe today, is that I would not personally invest in Detroit nor would I suggest other investors buy property there. I do my own research, and my research tells me that I can find better cities for long-term buy & hold - personally.
You of course are in Detroit like the other commentators on here and you guys are way more informed with the on-the-ground knowledge that helps you find success there. Like Geof Greeneisen said - that means more investment deals for you guys...and if you love the city, by all means, invest in what you know. But for me, I did my research and I'm personally not interested and my advice to investors was to do their economic research first as well. My advice was to forget the properties view where the city will be down the road from an economic standpoint first. Then if you like what the research tells you, start looking for partners and then look at houses. I still give that advice today, and again for the record, I don't like Detroit for my portfolio but i love that you local guys defend it and stand up for it.
Now, just FYI, here are links to articles before and after my talk and I am copying an article printed less than 60 days ago...this article describes exactly what I saw in the city and exactly what was explained to me about the investment reality on the ground.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/detroit-shrinking
DETROIT, Feb 19 (Reuters) - Imagine a city with open space larger than the size of Paris, where people are planting hardwood trees and vegetable gardens, and neighbors have plenty of room to spread out.
It would sound so idyllic, if only it weren't Detroit.
The open space is largely abandoned land, the lack of neighbors the result of an inexorable exodus, the planting the work of residents striving to stop the blight from spreading.
America loves a big comeback, but Detroiters harbor few illusions. For many here, it's about salvaging what remains of a once-great city.
Throughout its long decline, Detroit has sought ways to restore to its former glory a city that was home to 1.8 million people, pinning its hopes on grandiose plans for the automotive industry or casinos.
With just 700,000 people left, ambitions are now focused on making less populated neighborhoods viable and repurposing land, perhaps for urban farming. Where the cash-strapped city can't provide, grassroots groups and investors help fill the gaps.
"What everyone wants is new neighbors," said Khalil Ligon, project manager for the Lower East Side Action Plan (LEAP), a nonprofit focused on some 15 square miles of the city where 55,000 people live. "But where are you going to get them?"
The falling population is one of Detroit's biggest problems. Detroit Future City, a planning blueprint, assumes just 600,000 residents. Launched by Mayor Dave Bing, the plan aims to revamp the economy and use empty space. The Kresge Foundation, started by the Detroit family behind retail giant Kmart, has promised $150 million toward the project.
"It's certainly the most realistic plan the city has ever had," said Margaret Dewar, a University of Michigan planning professor in Ann Arbor.
Neighborhood groups are also pitching in. Dave Szymanski, deputy treasurer for Wayne County, which includes Detroit, says "we've never seen this much energy at the grassroots level."
Though the lack of jobs remains the root cause of the city's problems, Detroit's downtown is enjoying something of a business revival led by mortgage lender Quicken Loans, whose owner and fellow business leaders are financing all but $25 million of a $140 million streetcar line.
Still, unemployment is stubbornly high at around 18 percent, more than twice the rate for the country as a whole.
HOMES, AND HOPES, FORECLOSED
Reinventing a struggling city is a tall order. Finances are so fragile that Michigan Governor Rick Snyder, a Republican, may soon appoint an emergency financial manager to take over Detroit's accounts. Such a manager could in turn recommend that the city file for bankruptcy, which would be the largest ever Chapter 9 municipal bankruptcy in the United States.
In a desperate effort to avoid that fate, the Bing administration has cut spending, laid off city employees, and cut wages and benefits for the rest. Bing says cash flow is now stable, but Detroit needs investment by the state to thrive.
"We cannot cut our way of this situation," Bing told Reuters. "We've got to talk about growth."
Governor Snyder says Detroit's main problem is its finances and stresses that he wants to focus investment on transportation and other projects that will help the local economy. "I don't want to forget the people in the neighborhoods."
Bing's revival plan will end up in the hands of the emergency manager, should one be appointed. "If the emergency manager buys into the long-term vision of the plan, it has a chance. But if their brief is just to cut costs and services, it doesn't have a chance," said Dewar, the University of Michigan professor.
Already, police services have been cut back in the city, especially in less populated areas. Some precincts have been merged and are closed, or are in "virtual mode" overnight - there's a number to call.
The number of murders per 100,000 people in Detroit in 2012 put the city's murder rate at around 10 times the national average. Even so, says Bing, persuading people in mostly deserted areas to move to denser areas, where there is "safety in numbers," is a challenge.
The population continues in flux because of another acute problem for Detroit - the foreclosure crisis. As many as 42,000 of Detroit's estimated 380,000 homes could go to auction this fall.
The ongoing decline of poor neighborhoods while downtown revives points to the sensitive subject of race, in a city that is 83 percent black and has lived through race riots in the 1940s and 1960s.
Poor services and the possibility that a state-appointed manager will take over the city have fueled frustration among African Americans, community leaders say.
"It is one thing to feel ignored, it is another to feel betrayed," said Pastor D. Alexander Bullock of Rev. Jesse Jackson's Rainbow PUSH Coalition. "Once people lose faith in the process, the only response will be to destroy it."
PLANTING AGAINST POLLUTION
Driving around Detroit's emptier areas, blocks with one house or a few homes left are a common sight. But they are often well maintained, with cut grass and potted plants out front: No matter how many people have left, for those that remain this is still home.
There are also an estimated 2,000 city gardens, which environmental activist Shea Howell says popped up years before the idea of urban farming surfaced. "They are operated extra-legally or illegally, but the city has bigger things to worry about than going after someone raising a few chickens," she said.
Kirk Mayes of the Brightmoor Alliance, in one of the city's poorest areas, says there are 200 community gardens in Brightmoor alone.
As farming is imagined for Detroit's future, abandoned land would provide fruit and vegetables to the city's inhabitants, for whom fresh food is often not accessible because grocery stores are few and far between.
City and county officials have no hard figures on the number of empty plots and abandoned homes, and estimates vary wildly, going as high as 100,000. "What's clear is we have space for a million people who are no longer there," Szymanski said.
Much of that land could revert to scrub land or, as part of Detroit Future City's vision, become "blue-green" corridors to reduce pollution and help drainage in a city with an inadequate, ancient sewer system that cannot handle storm water.
Hey Chris, I don't have time to read your entire post, but i will. Listen to your own audio from the summit. I'll go back and re-listen to your segment, but something along the lines of half its population in the last 5 years, which is completely false. I see you've listed population stats along with Jon, those people just moved out of the city limits during the "White Flight".
What I'm guessing is you've never been to "Detroit". When people talk about "Detroit" rarely are the actually talking about investing in the city of detroit. It's hard to understand unless you know SE MI.
- Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2011 · 61 posts · 23 votes13y
Michigan (especially the Grand Rapids area) is a horrible place to invest. Stay away! There is no opportunity for investors. Again, to all investors, stay away!
Originally posted by Clay Huber:
Michigan (especially the Grand Rapids area) is a horrible place to invest. Stay away! There is no opportunity for investors. Again, to all investors, stay away!
I thought about posting the same thing regarding SE Michigan. :-)- 13yChris ClothierBusiness MemberRental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Clay Huber - that was funny!
Joe Delia - I will re-listen and see how I phrased it. If I spoke incorrectly during the talk, then I will absolutely own up to that mistake. But my talk was not about Detroit. My talk was about doing your proper due diligence and making sure you know where your buying and who you are doing business with. My talk was about how to look at a city from an economic standpoint - especially when you do not live there. It was titled "Doing Proper Due Diligence in 2012" and was aimed in particular at investors who buy out-of-area. When I used Detroit as an example of a city I would not invest in after looking at its future through an economic lense, my information was based on Mayor Bing's plan to reduce the actual size of the cities infrastructure and services by 1/3 or more and consolidating the population into roughly 9 neighborhoods encompassing 45 square miles. That is a shrinking city. He cites as his reasoning for this plan the "sharp decline in population" and "neighborhoods where as many or more than 80% of the properties are vacant amid high unemployment". And the city had a documented decline in population of 25% between 2000 and 2010 and nearly 40&% between 1990 and 2010. The population actually sits at its lowest level since 1910. But, like I said, if I said a 50% decline in population over the last 5 years I was incorrect. It appears that the city wants to shrink tis footprint by almost that much, but that is not the same thing as population decline.
I have been to Detroit - albeit only once - to look at the city for investing. I was not comfortable there with the city and was not comfortable with the future. As an out-of-area investor, I was not interested. You guys though know the city well and how to make money there so I have no doubt you love the place and want to see it succeed.
Here are some of the articles I used along with the ones cited above to have an idea about the city and it's future and each cites both population and infrastructure reduction:
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/24/vanishing-city-the-story-behind-detroit%E2%80%99s-shocking-population-decline/
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2011-03-22-michigan-census_N.htm
http://www.urbanophile.com/2012/02/21/the-reasons-behind-detroits-decline-by-pete-saunders/
I applaud everyone's in-depth knowledge and passion for the city and hate that I am in this conversation, because I am not one to bash anyone or companies or even cities. I just laid out my thoughts as an out-of-area investor and still stand by that today. AND, I am an ardent defender of my own city and there are plenty of people that do not like Memphis as an investment city and that is ok as long as they use stats and reasoning to come to that conclusion.
- Involved In Real Estate · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2010 · 812 posts · 178 votes13y
Detroit, as a whole, is way too large and NEEDS to shrink. It's MASSIVE. Bings plan to shrink the city size is actually a good thing, not bad.
I'm not trying to be an ***, but you specifically stated detroit with incorrect information, which is why I mentioned you to start. I'm not disputing the city of detroit is, overall, a mess.
These people your seeing in these decline numbers aren't leaving the state, in-fact, I believe Snyder said michigan is top 5 in population INCREASES over this last year.
There's no doubt people have left the city limits for the suburbs, what we're starting to see now is the bullseye effect of where people are now moving back to the heart of the city, big money in coming in and renovating the business districts, and as these areas improve, the next "ring" will as well.
How long till the neighborhoods improve? No idea, probably a long time.
- Involved In Real Estate · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2010 · 812 posts · 178 votes13y
Originally posted by Geof Greeneisen:
Well said Tom A.!We'll probably be going head to head on whats left in this ferndale, oak park, royal oak market. It's ridiculous right now.
You do any demo and rebuild stuff? I've identified an awesome property thats still on the market that would be perfect, depending on what you built, the spread could be substantial.
- 13yChris ClothierBusiness MemberRental Property Investor · memphis, TN · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by Joe Delia:
I'm not trying to be an ***, but you specifically stated detroit with incorrect information, which is why I mentioned you to start. I'm not disputing the city of detroit is, overall, a mess.Joe - I take no offense and know you are not trying to be an *** and like I said, I'm not really part of this conversation...BUT, I listened to the tapes tonight and I absolutely made a mis-statement of fact over the length of time and the percentage of population decline. I then do a very poor job of tying back in the shrinking of the size of the city. Listening I remembered back to how rushed I felt during that talk with such a short time to speak, but that is not an excuse for getting data wrong.
all the best to you guys up there -
Chris
- Involved In Real Estate · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2010 · 812 posts · 178 votes13y
Originally posted by Chris Clothier:
Originally posted by Joe Delia:
I'm not trying to be an ***, but you specifically stated detroit with incorrect information, which is why I mentioned you to start. I'm not disputing the city of detroit is, overall, a mess.Joe - I take no offense and know you are not trying to be an *** and like I said, I'm not really part of this conversation...BUT, I listened to the tapes tonight and I absolutely made a mis-statement of fact over the length of time and the percentage of population decline. I then do a very poor job of tying back in the shrinking of the size of the city. Listening I remembered back to how rushed I felt during that talk with such a short time to speak, but that is not an excuse for getting data wrong.
all the best to you guys up there -
Chris
Not a big deal. When i heard it i clicked back a few times to make sure i heard it correctly. Overall you did a great job. Keep plugging, i love what you guys do.
-Joe
- Involved In Real Estate · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2010 · 812 posts · 178 votes13y
What are your guys thoughts on the lack of inventory and when do you think we'll start to see more? From what I can tell, it's just going to get worse this summer. Appraisals still aren't coming in where they need to be for people to sell instead of refi.
- Real Estate Lender · Pt Hueneme, CA · Member since 2012 · 110 posts · 47 votes13y
Slightly off the topic about Detroit, but I just spent ten days there on business and if you enjoy looking at archetecture as much as I do then I suggest you find a way to visit. Classic craftsmanship, awesome facades and just incredible details. It's such a shame that so many of these classics are empty, or burned out. Granted I was in the downtown area only but I love that part of the city. Especially the Wayne County building on Congress and Woodward (close ) with the copper chariots and tower.
I have been to Paris Fr. And still say Detroit is the second place trophy winner.
Ok, back on topic.........
- Real Estate Lender · Pt Hueneme, CA · Member since 2012 · 110 posts · 47 votes13y
And it's for sale or lease!
- Landlord · Flat Rock, MI · Member since 2011 · 179 posts · 26 votes13y
Regarding Detroit:
1. An Emergency Financial Manager is in place, who will be restructuring Detroit's city government, possibly cutting deals on the debt that is strangling their finances, etc.
2. The state is looking at how Detroit assesses property and whether taxes are too high overall.
3. Because it also affects every other city in Michigan, I expect reform of municipal financing will happen within five years or so. Detroit will be a big beneficiary.
4. Downtown and midtown are seeing redevelopment. There is an effort to encourage young people and creative types to live there.These point to a better investing environment in the short-term future. Investing the the right areas of Detroit can be done profitably. I agree people from out of the area should not try to visit a week and figure out where.
4. The County Building is beautiful, but is designated historic. There is a very limited market for who could actually benefit from the space under those conditions, and so it is empty.
I am not a USA Investor however I do know about ford and dearborn, and quite a lot of interest in detroit from people here in the UK. Some of the numbers looked exciting! However this place is high risk an not for UK investor unless you have power team there. I enjoyed watching shea on youtube with the gun fire an busting the gangs it was like watching cops an robbers films on tv, however if I did invest (in $1000 houses ! - unheard of in UK ) I would need a man on the ground like shea.
An yes there is some amazing architecture an some awful destruction from disrepair of the state of the place.- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 20 posts · 9 votes13y
Tom A. so when you talk about the 2-3% in the middle class neighborhoods of detroit, what are those going for? and the houses that are on the market for a week, what about those?
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