Is this Hard Money Lender a scam or not?

Is this Hard Money Lender a scam or not?

Member since 2020 · 20 posts · 10 votes

First time vetting hard money lenders for a flip I have under contract but not closed yet. One potential lender has attractive terms (8%, 2 points, 100% financed, no prepay penalty), but on the phone he has very spotty English so it's hard to talk to him, and his contract seems suspicious in areas too. However, he does appear to be registered with the State of Ohio as a business entity, and also "Licensed by the OHIO Bureau of Real Estate (BRE) (#01925898)", which I could not find this organization via Google (I am in Michigan). In his loan terms sheet, he is asking for about $1400 Loan Origination Fee, and my bank account # and routing # to deposit into. His address for his company is just a UPS Store mailbox, and the phone number is just his cell.

Does anyone know of ways to sure-fire guarantee he's not trying to rip me off, short of just not using him? His website seems mostly legit (The Private Funding LLC) and his loan application does too. I can also offer the loan application he sent over, if that helps. Thanks for any insight anyone might offer, I'll probably run it by a lawyer tomorrow.

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Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y

UPS mailbox screams RUN. Website pasted from other sources. Says he does conventional loans but he is not licensed to do this.

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  • Erik EstradaBusiness Member
    Lender · Member since 2022 · 6k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    If it seems too good to be true do not do it. Depending on your situation you might be better off doing a fix and flip loan with a broker at about the same terms. Most Hard Money lenders are doing 65-75% LTV and may finance the repairs. Rates are in the high 9s to sometimes 11%. Points are much higher as well.

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  • Lender · Macon, GA · Member since 2015 · 191 posts · 59 votes
    4y

    He might be serious but I wouldn't take that bet. It's especially weird that this guy doesn't have a real company address and offering you 100% financing for your 1st deal. There are hard money companies with full infrastructure who wouldn't take that risk.  

    If he is serious, there's a lot he's not telling you. I wouldn't do it man. I'd rather find the 20% to put down and go with a real company that closes with the use of a title company than risk giving that man my bank account information. 

    Btw, as a private money broker, I've only seen lenders ask for bank statements or send PLAID links to verify your bank account information. You can pay for the appraisal with a credit card.  

  • Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    UPS mailbox screams RUN. Website pasted from other sources. Says he does conventional loans but he is not licensed to do this.

  • River SavaPro Member
    Lender · USA · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    Hi Bryan- 

    Frustrating having to go through that. I can put you in touch with a reputable hard money lender. Just sent you a friend request. 

  • Investor · Naples, FL · Member since 2016 · 256 posts · 75 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bryan Normal:

    First time vetting hard money lenders for a flip I have under contract but not closed yet. One potential lender has attractive terms (8%, 2 points, 100% financed, no prepay penalty), but on the phone he has very spotty English so it's hard to talk to him, and his contract seems suspicious in areas too. However, he does appear to be registered with the State of Ohio as a business entity, and also "Licensed by the OHIO Bureau of Real Estate (BRE) (#01925898)", which I could not find this organization via Google (I am in Michigan). In his loan terms sheet, he is asking for about $1400 Loan Origination Fee, and my bank account # and routing # to deposit into. His address for his company is just a UPS Store mailbox, and the phone number is just his cell.

    Does anyone know of ways to sure-fire guarantee he's not trying to rip me off, short of just not using him? His website seems mostly legit (The Private Funding LLC) and his loan application does too. I can also offer the loan application he sent over, if that helps. Thanks for any insight anyone might offer, I'll probably run it by a lawyer tomorrow.


     STAY AWAY!! DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Caroline Gerardo:

    UPS mailbox screams RUN. Website pasted from other sources. Says he does conventional loans but he is not licensed to do this.


    fake lender all the way  they are getting a little smarter now they know rates have gone up so they have moved from 5% to 8% so it seems more real.

    there are HML that still have rates about there but only for very experienced or clients that have been with them for years.. or 50% LTC  that type of arrangement.
  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y

    one time there was a private equity fund that has an amazing track record looking for investors, their investments are simply public stock companies in the healthcare sector. We know for sure it's a fake based on :
    1. Their performance was so good even when the market dropped
    2. They use UPS Mailbox in NYC lol :)

  • Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    Unless you are borrowing against a large commercial property, upfront fees are almost the perfect sign that you are dealing with a scammer, @Bryan Normal. You could stop right there, but I didn’t.

    By Googling a few phrases on the website, it took just a couple of minutes to determine it's almost an exact copy of 365 Home Lending. The photos in the testimonials also appear in CryptoBanxaTrade (whatever that is). Looks like there could be more, but I quit there.

    I hate to say it but the look of this website is eerily similar to the one a scammer created to spoof our company several years ago. I had reserved all combinations of .com, .org, .net, etc. but missed some. Unfortunately, some scammer didn’t and created a very professional website that included our exact company name, my exact name, our real home address, and what was probably a Google Voice phone number. This guy answered the phone as me, except I’m told he had a foreign accent. I don’t.

    I found out about this after several victims skipped traced me and called my real home phone number. I won’t reveal publicly what I did to end it, but from just those who contacted me, it totaled a lot of money.

    We are licensed through the state and with an LLC in good standing that you could look up. You could also look up Deeds-of-Trust that we really made. You could call some local real estate club owners and they might know and vouch for me. Ditto our borrowers. The problem is that unless you knew to mention the foreign accent, you'd think you just checked me out. Oh, and we use a P.O. Box and a cell phone. Not sure what that proves.

    My point with all this is that verifying licensing, LLC's, and Mortgages/DOTs is the standard naïve advice you read here. It might confirm a legit company exists, which is good and something you should do, but in no way guarantees you are speaking to whom you think. Plus, I hope I'm scaring you.

    Stay off the web when looking for a lender. Unless you have some rock-solid references, face-to-face is your safest bet, Bryan. Plus, there are many advantages to doing business with local lenders you can meet a local real estate club and with whom you can develop a relationship. No guarantees, but Scotsman Guide and The AAPL are also safer bets than a random website. (Full disclosure, we’re AAPL members.)

    Once you figure out how to tell the scammers apart from the legit lenders using a website, would you please let me know?

  • Member since 2020 · 20 posts · 10 votes
    4y

    Man great stuff all around guys, thank you. Tbh there were a few other lenders that I knew were slam dunk scammers because of interest rate, but this guy seemed slightly more legitimate so I suppose in relativity I elevated his status to "...Maybe?", which was wishful thinking. But this is great feedback on how to find a scammer in the future, and really happy I posted here for peace of mind to not go any further. I actually do have a legitimate lender that I'm closing with for the first time now, but it's slow and arduous and feels like a conventional bank with all the paperwork, so I was looking for a backup HML that was a bit more simple, fast, and easy to communicate with. I'll just stay with the slow, conservative HML for now until that more personal HML comes along in the future that I can trust. Thanks again everyone!

  • Robin SimonBusiness Member
    Lender · Austin, TX · Member since 2022 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bryan Normal:

    First time vetting hard money lenders for a flip I have under contract but not closed yet. One potential lender has attractive terms (8%, 2 points, 100% financed, no prepay penalty), but on the phone he has very spotty English so it's hard to talk to him, and his contract seems suspicious in areas too. However, he does appear to be registered with the State of Ohio as a business entity, and also "Licensed by the OHIO Bureau of Real Estate (BRE) (#01925898)", which I could not find this organization via Google (I am in Michigan). In his loan terms sheet, he is asking for about $1400 Loan Origination Fee, and my bank account # and routing # to deposit into. His address for his company is just a UPS Store mailbox, and the phone number is just his cell.

    Does anyone know of ways to sure-fire guarantee he's not trying to rip me off, short of just not using him? His website seems mostly legit (The Private Funding LLC) and his loan application does too. I can also offer the loan application he sent over, if that helps. Thanks for any insight anyone might offer, I'll probably run it by a lawyer tomorrow.


     Good stuff here already but yeah, rule of thumb "if it seems too good to be true / terms and rates much better than competitors" its likely a scam.  Theres too many hard money lenders out there and too big an industry for some lenders to offer much better rates than others and have a successful business (w/o it being a scam)

  • Specialist · NJ · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 653 votes
    4y

    Run.

  • Specialist · NJ · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 653 votes
    4y

    To get 8%, 2 points, and 100% financing you need to do 30 deals per year.  We have that exact program and that's the volume you need per year to get into it.  30+ per year.

    I doubt you're there yet but one day and he is asking for money upfront.  Two huge red flags.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Jeff S.:

    Unless you are borrowing against a large commercial property, upfront fees are almost the perfect sign that you are dealing with a scammer, @Bryan Normal. You could stop right there, but I didn’t.

    By Googling a few phrases on the website, it took just a couple of minutes to determine it's almost an exact copy of 365 Home Lending. The photos in the testimonials also appear in CryptoBanxaTrade (whatever that is). Looks like there could be more, but I quit there.

    I hate to say it but the look of this website is eerily similar to the one a scammer created to spoof our company several years ago. I had reserved all combinations of .com, .org, .net, etc. but missed some. Unfortunately, some scammer didn’t and created a very professional website that included our exact company name, my exact name, our real home address, and what was probably a Google Voice phone number. This guy answered the phone as me, except I’m told he had a foreign accent. I don’t.

    I found out about this after several victims skipped traced me and called my real home phone number. I won’t reveal publicly what I did to end it, but from just those who contacted me, it totaled a lot of money.

    We are licensed through the state and with an LLC in good standing that you could look up. You could also look up Deeds-of-Trust that we really made. You could call some local real estate club owners and they might know and vouch for me. Ditto our borrowers. The problem is that unless you knew to mention the foreign accent, you'd think you just checked me out. Oh, and we use a P.O. Box and a cell phone. Not sure what that proves.

    My point with all this is that verifying licensing, LLC's, and Mortgages/DOTs is the standard naïve advice you read here. It might confirm a legit company exists, which is good and something you should do, but in no way guarantees you are speaking to whom you think. Plus, I hope I'm scaring you.

    Stay off the web when looking for a lender. Unless you have some rock-solid references, face-to-face is your safest bet, Bryan. Plus, there are many advantages to doing business with local lenders you can meet a local real estate club and with whom you can develop a relationship. No guarantees, but Scotsman Guide and The AAPL are also safer bets than a random website. (Full disclosure, we’re AAPL members.)

    Once you figure out how to tell the scammers apart from the legit lenders using a website, would you please let me know?

     I dont have a lending website but I do a lot of loans/ deals 150 plus a year ( which are smaller balance loans that are our niche thats why the volume is so high) .. and so my name gets around in the markets I serve .. And I did have one person call me and ask me if I was working in a certain market as someone was using my name and to look me up on BP etc etc.. never heard of them.. and then it turns out they were also using another legit lenders creds and I informed them as well..  these are all offshore scammers plain and simple .. the bigger on shore scammers are more sophisticated and are usually just due diligence pump and dump like Reminton financial was .  They speak great English because they are born and raised here they know the industry say all the right things.. their main target is the dreamers like Ingrid Robinson was/is.. she was in the health field and decided to do a big development up at Clear Lake CA.. which is where i cut my teeth selling RE back in the 70s and my dad in the 60s .. so when i saw that and the property she wanted to develop there on American greed I was stunned. One i know the parcel I knew the last guy who tried to develop it and it got turned down it was NOT developable based on EIR concerns. but she did not know that and Remington approved her very quickly just send us 10k.. then dumped her over time with no intention or means to ever make a loan on that.. there are innumerable amount of folks that try to do their first developments have no track record and fall for these due diligence scams. 

    One can google Remington and American greed and Ingrid Robinson to read about how this company based in Scottsdale and I think Minneapolis was in business about 20 some years took in MILLIONS in due diligence fee's usually 5 to 10k and in all those years the FBI could only document 11 actual loans.  these guys go long prison terms. 

  • Jordan MoorheadBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    It sounds too good to be true to me personally. I get those terms from private lenders who I've known for years and done lots of deals with 

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2022 · 7 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    I am a hard money lender myself and understand there are a lot of players in this space angling to advertise the best deals. It's becoming increasingly difficult to try and compare a truly "apples to apples" scenario to determine what's in your best interest. As the market has shifted over the past couple months, so too the qualifying parameters have tightened up especially in the leverage. Generally speaking, our rates are between 11 & 12% now, charging 2-3 points, maxing out at 80% LTV. The only out-of-pocket up-front cost should be the cost of an appraisal, and bank account #'s and routing numbers would be required to set up auto-drafting of your payments or draw reimbursements. My experience is if it's too good to be true, there's almost certainly a catch.

  • Accountant · San Diego, CA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 552 votes
    4y

    I second what @Ryan Miller said. Tho there are due diligence fees, these are tact on usually out of the "net funding" of the deal or if you back out at the last minute and the lender already did all the work of underwriting the deal. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Louisville, KY · Member since 2014 · 257 posts · 172 votes
    4y

    @Bryan Normal find a hard money lender local to your market, there are plenty. Stay away from national lenders unless you personally know someone who has used them. Local lenders are easier to work with and will help you not buy a bad deal. Also, ask local flippers who they are using. Its pretty easy to find a quality hard money lender. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Bryan Normal Those terms are normal. Lower on the interest rate-it's usually 8.5-15% Expected on the points. Usually 1-3points. 

    Origination fee seems normal.

    My concern would be that he is asking for your bank acct and routing #. I have never had a lender ask me for that as you do not deal with any funds at closing. The funds are taken care of by the title company, not you. 

    This is my biggest red flag and I would definitely not provide that info. 

  • Realtor · Tempe, AZ · Member since 2017 · 541 posts · 442 votes
    4y

    I would never pay them a point up front, only to the title company. Seems like a scam to me

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bryan Normal:

    First time vetting hard money lenders for a flip I have under contract but not closed yet. One potential lender has attractive terms (8%, 2 points, 100% financed, no prepay penalty), but on the phone he has very spotty English so it's hard to talk to him, and his contract seems suspicious in areas too. However, he does appear to be registered with the State of Ohio as a business entity, and also "Licensed by the OHIO Bureau of Real Estate (BRE) (#01925898)", which I could not find this organization via Google (I am in Michigan). In his loan terms sheet, he is asking for about $1400 Loan Origination Fee, and my bank account # and routing # to deposit into. His address for his company is just a UPS Store mailbox, and the phone number is just his cell.

    Does anyone know of ways to sure-fire guarantee he's not trying to rip me off, short of just not using him? His website seems mostly legit (The Private Funding LLC) and his loan application does too. I can also offer the loan application he sent over, if that helps. Thanks for any insight anyone might offer, I'll probably run it by a lawyer tomorrow.


    It seems this company is run by two mortgage/loan officers from western ohio mortgage corporation. Maybe, this is their side hustle business or new venture(?); They also create a second company just one year ago. Both officer is having NMLS but I guess the NMLS # shall be tied to the original company. Another funny thing is the officer didn't list this company in their linked profile.

    I don't know but it seems too confusing. How could 'ethically' loan officer is working for two companies for same/competing business?

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y

    Also , this privatefunding website is a copy paste or duplicate from 365homelending.com ; the difference between these two websites is that 365 is showing all their loan officer and license. 

    hahaha what's funny is the website even copies the same picture lol :)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
    Quote from @Bryan Normal:

    First time vetting hard money lenders for a flip I have under contract but not closed yet. One potential lender has attractive terms (8%, 2 points, 100% financed, no prepay penalty), but on the phone he has very spotty English so it's hard to talk to him, and his contract seems suspicious in areas too. However, he does appear to be registered with the State of Ohio as a business entity, and also "Licensed by the OHIO Bureau of Real Estate (BRE) (#01925898)", which I could not find this organization via Google (I am in Michigan). In his loan terms sheet, he is asking for about $1400 Loan Origination Fee, and my bank account # and routing # to deposit into. His address for his company is just a UPS Store mailbox, and the phone number is just his cell.

    Does anyone know of ways to sure-fire guarantee he's not trying to rip me off, short of just not using him? His website seems mostly legit (The Private Funding LLC) and his loan application does too. I can also offer the loan application he sent over, if that helps. Thanks for any insight anyone might offer, I'll probably run it by a lawyer tomorrow.


    It seems this company is run by two mortgage/loan officers from western ohio mortgage corporation. Maybe, this is their side hustle business or new venture(?); They also create a second company just one year ago. Both officer is having NMLS but I guess the NMLS # shall be tied to the original company. Another funny thing is the officer didn't list this company in their linked profile.

    I don't know but it seems too confusing. How could 'ethically' loan officer is working for two companies for same/competing business?


     U cant be licensed with two companies that is against the laws.  if one just pops on to the NMLS puts the number in or their name you will see all the characters listed for that company and their history. 

  • Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 2 votes
    4y

    This guy, John Wilson with The Private Funding LLC, was recommended on FB and just tried to scam me out of a $1250 application fee. After approval, of course, lol. Yeah dude, the Ohio Bureau of Real Estate doesn't even exist! Wish I lived in Fairfield, Ohio, would stake out that UPS store and turn this guy in, can't imagine how many people have fallen for that scam! With any HML, first question is simple. Do you charge any upfront fees? If so, run. Fund That Flip tried to pull one over on me as well. After submitting loads of docs, they related everything was good to go and I paid them a $1500 required deposit. Got a call the next day saying sorry, the underwriter doesn't like this deal. At least I got my $1500 back, though it wasn't easy. Moral of the story, be careful everyone!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Horia Jordache:

    This guy, John Wilson with The Private Funding LLC, was recommended on FB and just tried to scam me out of a $1250 application fee. After approval, of course, lol. Yeah dude, the Ohio Bureau of Real Estate doesn't even exist! Wish I lived in Fairfield, Ohio, would stake out that UPS store and turn this guy in, can't imagine how many people have fallen for that scam! With any HML, first question is simple. Do you charge any upfront fees? If so, run. Fund That Flip tried to pull one over on me as well. After submitting loads of docs, they related everything was good to go and I paid them a $1500 required deposit. Got a call the next day saying sorry, the underwriter doesn't like this deal. At least I got my $1500 back, though it wasn't easy. Moral of the story, be careful everyone!


     fund that flip has taken numerous clients of mine out of deals with new fundings.. your deal may have not worked but they are a legit lender not a pump an dump due diligence scammer.  Just sayin. 

  • Member since 2019 · 5 posts · 2 votes
    4y

    I agree, Jay, they are legitimate, though I provided every imaginable piece of information and documentation regarding the property and waited a couple of days for them to review. LO called and said it was reviewed by UW and good to go, asked me to pay the $1500, after which I was told the next day that UW didn't like the property. That's the rub. Good to go...pay $1500...not good to go. We didn't even get to the actual application. At least they refunded the fee, though wish they were a bit more honest before charging it. 

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