Was this mortgage fraud?

129 Replies

@John Jackson
Your also missing a point that they refinanced the home prior to buying in massachusetts

I relocated to DC from Massachusetts thinking I was going to be down in DC for six months and during that time refinanced my home. I ended up buying a home in DC.

Stuff happens and things changed. Don’t see anything illegal going on here.

@Chris Seveney All the evidence I can find on the activities of this person indicate the move to Massachusetts was an intentional, one-way trip to move from the city to the country, so to speak.  Not that it seems like that matters?  The mortgage paperwork doesn't make any distinctions about whether or not occupancy is on a trial basis, right?  Also, in the context of this thread here, it's not easy to convey a sense of the whole situation in its entirety.  There's a lot more detail and background.  The bottom line that I see is that the property was tied up for decades by various people behaving badly, and this latest development in its history, the recent sale, appears to have had an extraordinary amount of concealed greasing of the skids just to pull it off.  If I didn't personally have an interest in the property, I would probably regard it the way I would bet you that the parties who did it do.  I would figure heck, no big deal, it's not like cutting corners with the rules and regulations hurts anyone, and no one is ever going to care.  Except this time, that's not true.  It did hurt me, and I do care.  So now I'm doing everything I can to try and determine exactly what was done, as much as it's possible for me to know from my vantage point, anyway.  If nothing hard and fast illegal was done, that would leave me with one form of closure.  If laws were broken, I'm not going to feel bad or regret at all chasing those issues down and finding out whether or not justice makes a difference in the outcome or not.  That seems appropriate, yes?

@John Jackson

All well and good and I agree people should follow the law. Isn't your time better spent on things you can control like your future real estate endeavors?

@Thomas Hickey It's really the situation then that regardless of all the rules and regulations about borrowing and lending, especially for mortgages, and especially since the 2008 mortgage crisis, that no one cares if people ignore them, as long as the monthly payments are being received?

How about this question?  Does anyone reading in here know if there would be anything apparent in recorded documents for a home sale that would indicate if the sale was characterized as 'as-is', or not?  Or is a detail like that simply not relevant for the purposes that having recorded documents serves?

I'm not going to tell you how to spend your time, because if you want to waste time trying to exact revenge on a deal that fell through, that's your business, but bottom line is this: if everything is performing - meaning mortgages are being paid and no one is in default or attempting to abscond from their payment responsibilities - no one is going to care what you uncover. What are you going to tell the authorities - "Hey, guess what I found? A mortgage that was obtained under fraudulent conditions, that everyone is paying on as agreed". If you think fraud investigators are going to waste time on something like this, I think you're mistaken. 

PS: When everyone says "Jilted lover", they're talking about you. You're spending a ton of energy on exacting revenge, energy that could be better spent finding and closing a good deal.

@JD Martin I'm sorry, but you too completely jump to incorrect conclusions about my motivations and intentions.  I couldn't care less about revenge.  I'm looking to learn if any wrongdoing took place, and if so, the extent to which pursuing justice for it could alter the present status of the circumstances.  If the sale of this property couldn't have been made, and wasn't made in conformity with all applicable rules, regulations, laws, then my response would be to pursue reversing the entire transaction.  I think that would only bother people who enjoy making gains by engaging in wrongdoing and getting away with it.

@John Jackson FWIW, you can tell yourself what you want to believe, but remember they can have their story as well. Stories that are not written down on paper, and benefit of the doubt lies on them, it’s a battle between he said she said. The only thing that matters is black and white, at the time of application, the entity will assume your story to be true and correct, they have no reason not to, if they suspect that it is not, then they will decline. The weakest form of evidence is a story.
No legal advice above whatsoever.

@John Jackson what is your end game in all of this?  To have them unwind the whole deal and then sell it to you?  If so, that sounds like the EXACT definition of revenge to me:

verb (used with object), revenged, revenging.

1.

to exact punishment or expiation for a wrong on behalf of, especially in a resentful or vindictive spirit:

@JD Martin   I hear ya on this one

@John Jackson   John you obviously are obsessed with this.  but lets look at REALITY.

1. a note purchase agreement is not a real property purchase agreement. so there is no default provision or enforcement of contract provision other wise you would already be doing that and had filed a lis pendence as peeved and wronged as you perceive to be.

2. You can file complaints with HUD or other alphabet agencies but since your just an outsider your complaints will have little weight.

3. you probably not really understanding what happened here.. Mortgage brokers and Appraisers learned their lessons as you alluded to in the GFC.. one would have to be suicidal to go along with something like this.. And underwriters are too sharp.. I suspect nothing is wrong here other than you think you got snookered out of a deal.

Lastly the most important part of real estate is the Phrase NEXT  we have all lost deals.. it happens. Move on.. and maybe you could have moved quicker to close the deal.. there is a saying in most contract law that time of  the essence.. it seems in this case it was.

@John Jackson

What is the end game here? What specific goal do you want? Do you want them to forcibly take the house back from the buyers and give it to you? Do you want the buyers to go to prison? Do you want a pay out?

I can't imagine there being any pay off. The whole thing looks bad from the outside and appears to be revenge oriented rather than based on any true injustice.

You said you got your $2500 back. What more is there? You are in neither a better or worse situation than when you began.

@Manolo D. Nothing I'm doing or asking intends to learn anything that can't be followed through to black and white evidence.  I didn't think I was indicating anything otherwise.  My questions are intended to help me try and piece together what was or wasn't done, in a way that fits the facts I already have.  After that, it would be a matter of seeing if I can find necessary proof to back up or disprove the explanation for everything.  Why does it seem like these questions are making so many of you uncomfortable or disdainful?  If you found a property you wanted, and it was unique, and that which made it unique also happened to be a lot of what made you want it, and then someone else came along and took it out from under you, while you were in the middle of legitimately working to acquire it, and it wasn't clear they did it legitimately, what would you do?  Well, I know you'd tell me you'd just walk away and go somewhere else.  The difference between that and me is that I'm not interested in investing in the property as an arbitrary commodity to try and give myself 'bigger pockets' with.  I'm interested in it because of its unique value, both objectively and subjectively.  I'd be glad at this point to direct my efforts to another one instead, if there was one.  But there isn't.  So I'm no losing any time or effort by following up on this one as far as the trails of those who did what they did extend.

Wowzers...

There are too many deals out there to push a multi-year litigation process for your own gain.

I’m not convinced that the people you are dealing with are nefarious. There are many situations where good intentions or just lousy, irresponsible, or uninformed owners could have caused this.

Now you are planning to use the cops, courts, and banks as your hammer to wedge yourself into a deal? Best case you now are covered in muck from inserting yourself with a bunch of shady business. Worst case you become the shady operator making the people who are involved feel like victims. I know this isn’t how you see it and I’m sure that will make you feel defensive.

I’m going to keep dealing above board where sellers feel like I’ve treated them fairly.

@Anthony Gayden What I want is simple.  If it took wrongdoing to make the sale go through, I want the sale reversed.  Do I want the property 'given' to me?  That's a nice wish, I guess, but no, I couldn't see any sensible basis to go looking for that from anyone.  I would just want the property available again, back to a situation where it was in before anything wrong was done.  On that basis, it had been languishing on the market for more than a year.  I'd like the opportunity to finish the process I'd already started, to acquire the property as an investment asset, and restore it as I'd intended.

If you want to get in the weeds about all things FHA (like exemptions) here you go. There are ways of not doing 12 mos, no idea if this applies, but you seem to want all the info you can get so maybe this helps.

https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/4155-1_4_SECB.PDF

@Paul Bowers So, if someone did do wrong and it deprived me of a purchase I wanted to make, and I wanted their wrongdoing corrected so I could just go back to what I was doing before that, that's revenge?  It sounds like you have the wrong notion that I didn't want this property.

@Matt K. Thank you, and I appreciate the spirit in which you offered the information.

You might want to keep in mind that if you are wrong, you are opening the door for an abuse of process lawsuit.  Actually you could be right, and still open the door for that.

@Andrew Ware It really feels like what I'm getting a lot of here is victim blaming.  A bunch of other people pull a fast one that precludes me out of something rare and very valuable to me that I was already in the middle of acting up acquiring, and I'm seen as the would be troublemaker.  It's eye opening, I'll say that.

Originally posted by @John Jackson :

@Paul Bowers So, if someone did do wrong and it deprived me of a purchase I wanted to make, and I wanted their wrongdoing corrected so I could just go back to what I was doing before that, that's revenge?  It sounds like you have the wrong notion that I didn't want this property.

 I'm going to make a prediction: you're going to waste a lot of time and be in the same position you are today, at the end of it all. Or, possibly worse, you will be bitter about your real estate experience and not move any further on finding good investments.

If lots of people on here, with decades of experience, are telling you that it's a waste of time and your best bet is to just move on, why are you insistent that you shouldn't move on? Is this the last possible deal on the planet? 

We get it - you're right. That, and $1.99, will buy you a cup of coffee in most places. 

@Russell Brazil Thank you for the perspective.  What my response is, I think, is that if wrongdoing is evident, it seems like someone trying to sue me for abuse of process by pursuing it would be.... abuse of process.

I think what a lot of people are telling you (in many different ways) is that you're unlikely to get anything out of this. You're not likely to get the house, you're not likely to get money out of it, and the risk to you is that you open yourself up to legal trouble. You'd probably be better served by using this energy to find a new deal and close on it... rather than force a deal that didn't happen.

@John Jackson I think what others are trying to say is that even if some rules were broken, it will be difficult to prove and it is not worth your time. They are not going to reverse the sale. Move on. 

@JD Martin That's just it.  Yes, it's the last deal on the planet.  Not that I'm not constantly on the lookout for another one.  But I already know the area around here very well, and that was part of my realization that there really isn't another property like this one.  And this one is where I needed it to be.  If someone uncovers another one though, I'd want to look into it, too.

Originally posted by @John Jackson :

@Andrew Ware It really feels like what I'm getting a lot of here is victim blaming.  A bunch of other people pull a fast one that precludes me out of something rare and very valuable to me that I was already in the middle of acting up acquiring, and I'm seen as the would be troublemaker.  It's eye opening, I'll say that.

 No, what you're getting is a response to your victim mentality. Everyone/anyone that has done any kind of RE investing has had deals go bad and unfair situations foisted upon them. The difference is whether you move on, or you wail, scream, and gnash your teeth instead. You didn't own anything. No one stole from you. They simply went with a different buyer. Until a deal is complete - all paperwork signed, all money cleared the bank, all title work done - you have nothing. Plain and simple. Screaming about it won't make it any different. 

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