What I wish Pace Morby would have told me

What I wish Pace Morby would have told me

Rental Property Investor · Accokeek, MD · Member since 2020 · 106 posts · 87 votes

Creative financing is like thinking outside the box when it comes to buying or selling a house. It's all about finding alternative ways to structure the deal that works for both the buyer and the seller.

One popular method is called "subject-to," or subto for short. Basically, it means that instead of getting a new loan, the buyer takes over the existing mortgage payments. They're still responsible for making those monthly payments, but they don't have to go through the whole process of getting a new loan. It can be super handy if someone can't qualify for a traditional mortgage or just wants to avoid all the hassle and fees.

Another cool option is seller financing. Picture this: the seller becomes the lender! Instead of going to a bank, the buyer makes payments directly to the seller. It's like cutting out the middleman. This can be a win-win situation because the buyer gets some flexibility and the seller gets regular cash flow.

You can see how our current interest rate market has made it tough to pencil out deals. So taking the creative approach can help ease the exit strategy, which (for me) is buy-n-holds. According to Google search engine, the average rates (as of 5/19/23) are 7.521%. So creative financing at a rate even 1% below the average can drastically affect your exit strategy. (FYI, an exit strategy is a fancy way of your plan for the property, like sell, rent, flip, etc)

So when I started seeing all these videos from Pace Morby about how I could buy investment property at 2020 interest rates with no credit, no experience, and no money, I got excited!! However, I’ll give you a small spoiler alert, it didn’t pan out as I defined it in the beginning.

How things started:

  • 30 day close
  • $6,000-$9,000 in expected closing costs
  • $50,000 rehab costs
  • Interest rate: 3.125%

When we started this process, it was early December. In fact, it was 3 days prior to me having my shoulder reconstructed, which might be part of why this deal was stressful. The lender was Carrington Mortgage Services. One of the first things, I did was talk to the lender prior to signing the contract. Over the phone, I received approval to access the seller’s mortgage information (ie rates, loan term, etc) by the verbal approval of the seller. We asked several questions about how seamless the experience would be. They assured us that it would take more steps than normal but would result in about 30 days close.

Once the seller and I talked a bit, we set out to close in 35 days…

First rule: be more conservative if you can. Try to get better margins on your risks. Worried about losing money? Find reasons to ask the seller for a price decrease. Worried about not closing on time? Create a buffer.

Well, anyways, as soon as we were assigned our loan officer. He laughed and said that there’d be no way we could close in 30 days but expected it to be worst case 60 days. So the seller agreed to the extension, because of limited options. So we proceeded on. As we approached 60 days, the bank very slowly asked for more paperwork after claiming several times that we were set. So it was clear to me, 60 days wasn’t going to happen.

So we marched on. We were supposed to close on January 5th, but we extended it to late February. When late February wasn’t going to happen, we extended it to March 15th. The bank had a forbearance agreement with the seller, so we figured if we could close before the agreement expired (March), we’d successfully close this deal. Now, in case you don’t know, forbearance is basically a pause on mortgage payments. The bank allows you some time to catch up. This has become increasingly popular since COVID.

As we entered March, the bank continued to fumble over what paperwork we needed. Between mid-February and mid-March, I emailed or called nearly once a day to our assigned loan processor/officer for updates. They would respond rarely but I could tell we were progressing but not at a rapid rate.

Another lesson: I quickly learned that the banks had very little motivation in the assumption process. They clearly were not profiting off this transaction, which unfortunately gave me very little ability or leverage to make demands since they did NOT care at all. It’s clear to me that banks do not make much money in the maintenance of loans or buying loans in the secondary market (as Carrington Mortgage Services does), which leads me to question why anyone would want to run a business like that. But one of the three of YOU still reading this may be able to answer that. Regardless, let’s continue.

When we were exiting the first week of March, I was hammering the lender, telling them that they were at risk of losing the transaction (an empty threat). I hammered on saying, “You need to produce the TRID CD.” For those interested, traditional lenders have to produce CD or closing disclosures 3 days before closing to allow buyers to review them for error. Trust me they are needed. I caught a ton of errors in their CD!

Well, finally, we got a CD, which allowed us to close as soon as they sent the closing package to title. Well, they couldn’t produce that package until the day of closing, which wasn’t till 3/22. So yes, you guessed it!! We had to get the seller to sign another extension. So finally we reach the settlement day, title sent us the ALTA, and my jaw drops.

The ALTA settlement sheet says the seller has to pay money. A lot of money. Like $1,200. So I talked to my title company, PR Title Group. (Btw, I highly recommend them. Whet and Tamra are fantastic. ) PR title says they inputted the closing numbers from the bank. Then, the bank claims that title is wrong. Well, surprise, surprise, the bank messed up yet again! The closing numbers were way higher than expected though! We had to bring her mortgage current. We also had to file a quit claim deed due to the way the deal had to be structured per VA assumption, according to the bank.

But guess what we closed!!

How things ended:

  • 30 day close
  • $23,000 in closing costs
  • $50,000 rehab costs
  • Interest rate: 3.125%

Why would we want to close if the closing costs double? Can’t you see why not everyone would want to do this? It may sound easy but it’s not. It takes a lot of problem-solving. It takes immense faith in the process and your own ability.

It’s not easy but it’s worth it. Here’s why we are okay with the new cost:

  • Purchase price: $246,000
  • Mortgage: $1450/mo (PITI included)
  • ARV: $380,000
  • Rehab costs: $50,000
  • All-in costs: $73,000
  • Gross rent: $2600/month
  • Gross cashflow: $1150/month
  • ROI: 18.90%

Not bad in my opinion. Some of the value in this property is my experience. I learned so much about how these things worked. I stayed up late researching. I fought hard to make a deal work for the seller. We provided a great solution to a seller in need. Now, you may be asking, “Would you do it again?” And I would answer, “Heck yeah.”

Expectations would be set and the deal would be a lot easier. Last lesson: In life, raising the bar for yourself starts with lowering the bar for everyone else. Be accountable, take ownership, and don’t expect it all to happen overnight.

Your real estate friend,

Zack McDonough

28Reply
904 views

Most Popular Reply

Wholesaler · Arnold, MO · Member since 2013 · 348 posts · 183 votes
3y

This is not a sub 2 deal. This is a VA assumption.

See this reply in the discussion

71 Replies

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  • Real Estate Broker · Omaha, NE · Member since 2020 · 329 posts · 203 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Don Konipol:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:
    Quote from @Scott Gaspar:
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:
    Quote from @Vince Mayer:

    This is not a sub 2 deal. This is a VA assumption.


     Explain how they are different. I must be ignorant. Because upon talking with Pace Morby students, I was under the impression that it is a form of sub to.


    In a sub2 the loan stays in the sellers name, in an assumption the loan is changed to the buyers name. Typically only VA, FHA, and USDA loans are assumable, from my research


     For this assumption, the loan still stayed in the seller's name. I was added to the loan as well, but the lender disclosures were clear that the seller was still on the hook if we defaulted.

    @Don Konipol   maybe Don has seen this  but I have never seen an assumption where the seller stays on the loan and you the buyer goes on the loan in as co borrowers.. I wonder if there is some confusion some where.  But either way seems like a nice deal for you.


     Jay, a thought occurred to me.  This was probably a subject to but the buyer executed a personal guarantee with the SELLER, not the lender. AKA wrap


    That's a good thought- I've never heard of anyone that is non-military getting added to a VA loan, but I guess if it is not a true assumption then it's possible, right?

  • Rental Property Investor · Ontario, CA · Member since 2016 · 23 posts · 24 votes
    3y

    A non military person can fully assume a VA loan, it can create an issue though for the seller getting another VA loan depending on loan amount

  • Real Estate Agent · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2019 · 124 posts · 127 votes
    3y

    @Zachary McDonough I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insight into this process. Many online "marketers" of creative financing share this stuff like it's easy, which sets unrealistic expectations for people getting into it. You're right that banks/mortgage holders have very little incentive or drive to make the assumption process work. This means it requires a lot of flexibility and understand from both the buyer and seller end to weather the process and get the deal to closing. I had a similar VA assumption deal locked up for about 2 months for a buyer in Colorado Springs and unfortunately was not able to keep the seller in the deal after continuing to run into slow downs and challenges with the mortgage holder.

    Glad it worked out for you!

  • Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 738 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Scott Gaspar:
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:

    Creative financing is like thinking outside the box when it comes to buying or selling a house. It's all about finding alternative ways to structure the deal that works for both the buyer and the seller.

    One popular method is called "subject-to," or subto for short. Basically, it means that instead of getting a new loan, the buyer takes over the existing mortgage payments. They're still responsible for making those monthly payments, but they don't have to go through the whole process of getting a new loan. It can be super handy if someone can't qualify for a traditional mortgage or just wants to avoid all the hassle and fees.

    Another cool option is seller financing. Picture this: the seller becomes the lender! Instead of going to a bank, the buyer makes payments directly to the seller. It's like cutting out the middleman. This can be a win-win situation because the buyer gets some flexibility and the seller gets regular cash flow.

    You can see how our current interest rate market has made it tough to pencil out deals. So taking the creative approach can help ease the exit strategy, which (for me) is buy-n-holds. According to Google search engine, the average rates (as of 5/19/23) are 7.521%. So creative financing at a rate even 1% below the average can drastically affect your exit strategy. (FYI, an exit strategy is a fancy way of your plan for the property, like sell, rent, flip, etc)

    So when I started seeing all these videos from Pace Morby about how I could buy investment property at 2020 interest rates with no credit, no experience, and no money, I got excited!! However, I’ll give you a small spoiler alert, it didn’t pan out as I defined it in the beginning.

    How things started:

    • 30 day close
    • $6,000-$9,000 in expected closing costs
    • $50,000 rehab costs
    • Interest rate: 3.125%

    When we started this process, it was early December. In fact, it was 3 days prior to me having my shoulder reconstructed, which might be part of why this deal was stressful. The lender was Carrington Mortgage Services. One of the first things, I did was talk to the lender prior to signing the contract. Over the phone, I received approval to access the seller’s mortgage information (ie rates, loan term, etc) by the verbal approval of the seller. We asked several questions about how seamless the experience would be. They assured us that it would take more steps than normal but would result in about 30 days close.

    Once the seller and I talked a bit, we set out to close in 35 days…

    First rule: be more conservative if you can. Try to get better margins on your risks. Worried about losing money? Find reasons to ask the seller for a price decrease. Worried about not closing on time? Create a buffer.

    Well, anyways, as soon as we were assigned our loan officer. He laughed and said that there’d be no way we could close in 30 days but expected it to be worst case 60 days. So the seller agreed to the extension, because of limited options. So we proceeded on. As we approached 60 days, the bank very slowly asked for more paperwork after claiming several times that we were set. So it was clear to me, 60 days wasn’t going to happen.

    So we marched on. We were supposed to close on January 5th, but we extended it to late February. When late February wasn’t going to happen, we extended it to March 15th. The bank had a forbearance agreement with the seller, so we figured if we could close before the agreement expired (March), we’d successfully close this deal. Now, in case you don’t know, forbearance is basically a pause on mortgage payments. The bank allows you some time to catch up. This has become increasingly popular since COVID.

    As we entered March, the bank continued to fumble over what paperwork we needed. Between mid-February and mid-March, I emailed or called nearly once a day to our assigned loan processor/officer for updates. They would respond rarely but I could tell we were progressing but not at a rapid rate.

    Another lesson: I quickly learned that the banks had very little motivation in the assumption process. They clearly were not profiting off this transaction, which unfortunately gave me very little ability or leverage to make demands since they did NOT care at all. It’s clear to me that banks do not make much money in the maintenance of loans or buying loans in the secondary market (as Carrington Mortgage Services does), which leads me to question why anyone would want to run a business like that. But one of the three of YOU still reading this may be able to answer that. Regardless, let’s continue.

    When we were exiting the first week of March, I was hammering the lender, telling them that they were at risk of losing the transaction (an empty threat). I hammered on saying, “You need to produce the TRID CD.” For those interested, traditional lenders have to produce CD or closing disclosures 3 days before closing to allow buyers to review them for error. Trust me they are needed. I caught a ton of errors in their CD!

    Well, finally, we got a CD, which allowed us to close as soon as they sent the closing package to title. Well, they couldn’t produce that package until the day of closing, which wasn’t till 3/22. So yes, you guessed it!! We had to get the seller to sign another extension. So finally we reach the settlement day, title sent us the ALTA, and my jaw drops.

    The ALTA settlement sheet says the seller has to pay money. A lot of money. Like $1,200. So I talked to my title company, PR Title Group. (Btw, I highly recommend them. Whet and Tamra are fantastic. ) PR title says they inputted the closing numbers from the bank. Then, the bank claims that title is wrong. Well, surprise, surprise, the bank messed up yet again! The closing numbers were way higher than expected though! We had to bring her mortgage current. We also had to file a quit claim deed due to the way the deal had to be structured per VA assumption, according to the bank.

    But guess what we closed!!

    How things ended:

    • 30 day close
    • $23,000 in closing costs
    • $50,000 rehab costs
    • Interest rate: 3.125%

    Why would we want to close if the closing costs double? Can’t you see why not everyone would want to do this? It may sound easy but it’s not. It takes a lot of problem-solving. It takes immense faith in the process and your own ability.

    It’s not easy but it’s worth it. Here’s why we are okay with the new cost:

    • Purchase price: $246,000
    • Mortgage: $1450/mo (PITI included)
    • ARV: $380,000
    • Rehab costs: $50,000
    • All-in costs: $73,000
    • Gross rent: $2600/month
    • Gross cashflow: $1150/month
    • ROI: 18.90%

    Not bad in my opinion. Some of the value in this property is my experience. I learned so much about how these things worked. I stayed up late researching. I fought hard to make a deal work for the seller. We provided a great solution to a seller in need. Now, you may be asking, “Would you do it again?” And I would answer, “Heck yeah.”

    Expectations would be set and the deal would be a lot easier. Last lesson: In life, raising the bar for yourself starts with lowering the bar for everyone else. Be accountable, take ownership, and don’t expect it all to happen overnight.

    Your real estate friend,

    Zack McDonough


     Probably a dumb question but does anyone know of Pace posts on the forum? 


     No his henchmen do it for him! Kind of like a mafia capo or cartel boss. Keeping their hands off the product. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Ontario, CA · Member since 2016 · 23 posts · 24 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nate Marshall:
    Quote from @Scott Gaspar:
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:

    Creative financing is like thinking outside the box when it comes to buying or selling a house. It's all about finding alternative ways to structure the deal that works for both the buyer and the seller.

    One popular method is called "subject-to," or subto for short. Basically, it means that instead of getting a new loan, the buyer takes over the existing mortgage payments. They're still responsible for making those monthly payments, but they don't have to go through the whole process of getting a new loan. It can be super handy if someone can't qualify for a traditional mortgage or just wants to avoid all the hassle and fees.

    Another cool option is seller financing. Picture this: the seller becomes the lender! Instead of going to a bank, the buyer makes payments directly to the seller. It's like cutting out the middleman. This can be a win-win situation because the buyer gets some flexibility and the seller gets regular cash flow.

    You can see how our current interest rate market has made it tough to pencil out deals. So taking the creative approach can help ease the exit strategy, which (for me) is buy-n-holds. According to Google search engine, the average rates (as of 5/19/23) are 7.521%. So creative financing at a rate even 1% below the average can drastically affect your exit strategy. (FYI, an exit strategy is a fancy way of your plan for the property, like sell, rent, flip, etc)

    So when I started seeing all these videos from Pace Morby about how I could buy investment property at 2020 interest rates with no credit, no experience, and no money, I got excited!! However, I’ll give you a small spoiler alert, it didn’t pan out as I defined it in the beginning.

    How things started:

    • 30 day close
    • $6,000-$9,000 in expected closing costs
    • $50,000 rehab costs
    • Interest rate: 3.125%

    When we started this process, it was early December. In fact, it was 3 days prior to me having my shoulder reconstructed, which might be part of why this deal was stressful. The lender was Carrington Mortgage Services. One of the first things, I did was talk to the lender prior to signing the contract. Over the phone, I received approval to access the seller’s mortgage information (ie rates, loan term, etc) by the verbal approval of the seller. We asked several questions about how seamless the experience would be. They assured us that it would take more steps than normal but would result in about 30 days close.

    Once the seller and I talked a bit, we set out to close in 35 days…

    First rule: be more conservative if you can. Try to get better margins on your risks. Worried about losing money? Find reasons to ask the seller for a price decrease. Worried about not closing on time? Create a buffer.

    Well, anyways, as soon as we were assigned our loan officer. He laughed and said that there’d be no way we could close in 30 days but expected it to be worst case 60 days. So the seller agreed to the extension, because of limited options. So we proceeded on. As we approached 60 days, the bank very slowly asked for more paperwork after claiming several times that we were set. So it was clear to me, 60 days wasn’t going to happen.

    So we marched on. We were supposed to close on January 5th, but we extended it to late February. When late February wasn’t going to happen, we extended it to March 15th. The bank had a forbearance agreement with the seller, so we figured if we could close before the agreement expired (March), we’d successfully close this deal. Now, in case you don’t know, forbearance is basically a pause on mortgage payments. The bank allows you some time to catch up. This has become increasingly popular since COVID.

    As we entered March, the bank continued to fumble over what paperwork we needed. Between mid-February and mid-March, I emailed or called nearly once a day to our assigned loan processor/officer for updates. They would respond rarely but I could tell we were progressing but not at a rapid rate.

    Another lesson: I quickly learned that the banks had very little motivation in the assumption process. They clearly were not profiting off this transaction, which unfortunately gave me very little ability or leverage to make demands since they did NOT care at all. It’s clear to me that banks do not make much money in the maintenance of loans or buying loans in the secondary market (as Carrington Mortgage Services does), which leads me to question why anyone would want to run a business like that. But one of the three of YOU still reading this may be able to answer that. Regardless, let’s continue.

    When we were exiting the first week of March, I was hammering the lender, telling them that they were at risk of losing the transaction (an empty threat). I hammered on saying, “You need to produce the TRID CD.” For those interested, traditional lenders have to produce CD or closing disclosures 3 days before closing to allow buyers to review them for error. Trust me they are needed. I caught a ton of errors in their CD!

    Well, finally, we got a CD, which allowed us to close as soon as they sent the closing package to title. Well, they couldn’t produce that package until the day of closing, which wasn’t till 3/22. So yes, you guessed it!! We had to get the seller to sign another extension. So finally we reach the settlement day, title sent us the ALTA, and my jaw drops.

    The ALTA settlement sheet says the seller has to pay money. A lot of money. Like $1,200. So I talked to my title company, PR Title Group. (Btw, I highly recommend them. Whet and Tamra are fantastic. ) PR title says they inputted the closing numbers from the bank. Then, the bank claims that title is wrong. Well, surprise, surprise, the bank messed up yet again! The closing numbers were way higher than expected though! We had to bring her mortgage current. We also had to file a quit claim deed due to the way the deal had to be structured per VA assumption, according to the bank.

    But guess what we closed!!

    How things ended:

    • 30 day close
    • $23,000 in closing costs
    • $50,000 rehab costs
    • Interest rate: 3.125%

    Why would we want to close if the closing costs double? Can’t you see why not everyone would want to do this? It may sound easy but it’s not. It takes a lot of problem-solving. It takes immense faith in the process and your own ability.

    It’s not easy but it’s worth it. Here’s why we are okay with the new cost:

    • Purchase price: $246,000
    • Mortgage: $1450/mo (PITI included)
    • ARV: $380,000
    • Rehab costs: $50,000
    • All-in costs: $73,000
    • Gross rent: $2600/month
    • Gross cashflow: $1150/month
    • ROI: 18.90%

    Not bad in my opinion. Some of the value in this property is my experience. I learned so much about how these things worked. I stayed up late researching. I fought hard to make a deal work for the seller. We provided a great solution to a seller in need. Now, you may be asking, “Would you do it again?” And I would answer, “Heck yeah.”

    Expectations would be set and the deal would be a lot easier. Last lesson: In life, raising the bar for yourself starts with lowering the bar for everyone else. Be accountable, take ownership, and don’t expect it all to happen overnight.

    Your real estate friend,

    Zack McDonough


     Probably a dumb question but does anyone know of Pace posts on the forum? 


     No his henchmen do it for him! Kind of like a mafia capo or cartel boss. Keeping their hands off the product. 

    Lol, happy I’m not the only one that sees it this way, call me crazy but with all this attention to subto id be willing to bet we see a significant increase ins due on sale clauses being called 
  • Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 738 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Scott Gaspar:
    Quote from @Nate Marshall:
    Quote from @Scott Gaspar:
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:

    Creative financing is like thinking outside the box when it comes to buying or selling a house. It's all about finding alternative ways to structure the deal that works for both the buyer and the seller.

    One popular method is called "subject-to," or subto for short. Basically, it means that instead of getting a new loan, the buyer takes over the existing mortgage payments. They're still responsible for making those monthly payments, but they don't have to go through the whole process of getting a new loan. It can be super handy if someone can't qualify for a traditional mortgage or just wants to avoid all the hassle and fees.

    Another cool option is seller financing. Picture this: the seller becomes the lender! Instead of going to a bank, the buyer makes payments directly to the seller. It's like cutting out the middleman. This can be a win-win situation because the buyer gets some flexibility and the seller gets regular cash flow.

    You can see how our current interest rate market has made it tough to pencil out deals. So taking the creative approach can help ease the exit strategy, which (for me) is buy-n-holds. According to Google search engine, the average rates (as of 5/19/23) are 7.521%. So creative financing at a rate even 1% below the average can drastically affect your exit strategy. (FYI, an exit strategy is a fancy way of your plan for the property, like sell, rent, flip, etc)

    So when I started seeing all these videos from Pace Morby about how I could buy investment property at 2020 interest rates with no credit, no experience, and no money, I got excited!! However, I’ll give you a small spoiler alert, it didn’t pan out as I defined it in the beginning.

    How things started:

    • 30 day close
    • $6,000-$9,000 in expected closing costs
    • $50,000 rehab costs
    • Interest rate: 3.125%

    When we started this process, it was early December. In fact, it was 3 days prior to me having my shoulder reconstructed, which might be part of why this deal was stressful. The lender was Carrington Mortgage Services. One of the first things, I did was talk to the lender prior to signing the contract. Over the phone, I received approval to access the seller’s mortgage information (ie rates, loan term, etc) by the verbal approval of the seller. We asked several questions about how seamless the experience would be. They assured us that it would take more steps than normal but would result in about 30 days close.

    Once the seller and I talked a bit, we set out to close in 35 days…

    First rule: be more conservative if you can. Try to get better margins on your risks. Worried about losing money? Find reasons to ask the seller for a price decrease. Worried about not closing on time? Create a buffer.

    Well, anyways, as soon as we were assigned our loan officer. He laughed and said that there’d be no way we could close in 30 days but expected it to be worst case 60 days. So the seller agreed to the extension, because of limited options. So we proceeded on. As we approached 60 days, the bank very slowly asked for more paperwork after claiming several times that we were set. So it was clear to me, 60 days wasn’t going to happen.

    So we marched on. We were supposed to close on January 5th, but we extended it to late February. When late February wasn’t going to happen, we extended it to March 15th. The bank had a forbearance agreement with the seller, so we figured if we could close before the agreement expired (March), we’d successfully close this deal. Now, in case you don’t know, forbearance is basically a pause on mortgage payments. The bank allows you some time to catch up. This has become increasingly popular since COVID.

    As we entered March, the bank continued to fumble over what paperwork we needed. Between mid-February and mid-March, I emailed or called nearly once a day to our assigned loan processor/officer for updates. They would respond rarely but I could tell we were progressing but not at a rapid rate.

    Another lesson: I quickly learned that the banks had very little motivation in the assumption process. They clearly were not profiting off this transaction, which unfortunately gave me very little ability or leverage to make demands since they did NOT care at all. It’s clear to me that banks do not make much money in the maintenance of loans or buying loans in the secondary market (as Carrington Mortgage Services does), which leads me to question why anyone would want to run a business like that. But one of the three of YOU still reading this may be able to answer that. Regardless, let’s continue.

    When we were exiting the first week of March, I was hammering the lender, telling them that they were at risk of losing the transaction (an empty threat). I hammered on saying, “You need to produce the TRID CD.” For those interested, traditional lenders have to produce CD or closing disclosures 3 days before closing to allow buyers to review them for error. Trust me they are needed. I caught a ton of errors in their CD!

    Well, finally, we got a CD, which allowed us to close as soon as they sent the closing package to title. Well, they couldn’t produce that package until the day of closing, which wasn’t till 3/22. So yes, you guessed it!! We had to get the seller to sign another extension. So finally we reach the settlement day, title sent us the ALTA, and my jaw drops.

    The ALTA settlement sheet says the seller has to pay money. A lot of money. Like $1,200. So I talked to my title company, PR Title Group. (Btw, I highly recommend them. Whet and Tamra are fantastic. ) PR title says they inputted the closing numbers from the bank. Then, the bank claims that title is wrong. Well, surprise, surprise, the bank messed up yet again! The closing numbers were way higher than expected though! We had to bring her mortgage current. We also had to file a quit claim deed due to the way the deal had to be structured per VA assumption, according to the bank.

    But guess what we closed!!

    How things ended:

    • 30 day close
    • $23,000 in closing costs
    • $50,000 rehab costs
    • Interest rate: 3.125%

    Why would we want to close if the closing costs double? Can’t you see why not everyone would want to do this? It may sound easy but it’s not. It takes a lot of problem-solving. It takes immense faith in the process and your own ability.

    It’s not easy but it’s worth it. Here’s why we are okay with the new cost:

    • Purchase price: $246,000
    • Mortgage: $1450/mo (PITI included)
    • ARV: $380,000
    • Rehab costs: $50,000
    • All-in costs: $73,000
    • Gross rent: $2600/month
    • Gross cashflow: $1150/month
    • ROI: 18.90%

    Not bad in my opinion. Some of the value in this property is my experience. I learned so much about how these things worked. I stayed up late researching. I fought hard to make a deal work for the seller. We provided a great solution to a seller in need. Now, you may be asking, “Would you do it again?” And I would answer, “Heck yeah.”

    Expectations would be set and the deal would be a lot easier. Last lesson: In life, raising the bar for yourself starts with lowering the bar for everyone else. Be accountable, take ownership, and don’t expect it all to happen overnight.

    Your real estate friend,

    Zack McDonough


     Probably a dumb question but does anyone know of Pace posts on the forum? 


     No his henchmen do it for him! Kind of like a mafia capo or cartel boss. Keeping their hands off the product. 

    Lol, happy I’m not the only one that sees it this way, call me crazy but with all this attention to subto id be willing to bet we see a significant increase ins due on sale clauses being called 

     Just takes some bankers being educated. The mortgage industry could end this in a heartbeat. 

  • Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2015 · 1 post · 4 votes
    3y

    That's why I'm blown away that this Pace guru is screaming about subto from the rooftops. I guess he's not worried because there's not much intelligent life at these mortgage servicing companies and way too much money to made selling his info to the masses.

  • Paul DefnginPro Member
    Lender · Rockville, MD · Member since 2008 · 498 posts · 199 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Vince Mayer:

    This is not a sub 2 deal. This is a VA assumption.


     Agreed. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Accokeek, MD · Member since 2020 · 106 posts · 87 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Don Konipol:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:
    Quote from @Scott Gaspar:
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:
    Quote from @Vince Mayer:

    This is not a sub 2 deal. This is a VA assumption.


     Explain how they are different. I must be ignorant. Because upon talking with Pace Morby students, I was under the impression that it is a form of sub to.


    In a sub2 the loan stays in the sellers name, in an assumption the loan is changed to the buyers name. Typically only VA, FHA, and USDA loans are assumable, from my research


     For this assumption, the loan still stayed in the seller's name. I was added to the loan as well, but the lender disclosures were clear that the seller was still on the hook if we defaulted.

    @Don Konipol   maybe Don has seen this  but I have never seen an assumption where the seller stays on the loan and you the buyer goes on the loan in as co borrowers.. I wonder if there is some confusion some where.  But either way seems like a nice deal for you.

    Assumption without release of liability. I think this was done by FHA about 40 years ago. Amazing what comes back once the interest rate environment changes. 

    Your Comment: "We had to bring her mortgage current."

    It sounds more like a formalized loan modification, putting a co-borrower on the loan, bringing the loan current, to take it out of pre-foreclosure status. She probably didn't qualify on her own.


    Definitely not a Subject To and not an Assumption. 

    That's the danger of using sophisticated techniques when not properly trained. When it looks like a duck but you buy a rattlesnake. Now what do you do? Pretty serious mistake and the troubles that are to follow. What if the seller holds you hostage for your profits, won't cooperate and you are stuck with a partner you didn't want? Plus tax issues, plus occupancy, you can't evict her she is still on title and on the loan, you can't sell unless she is willing to sell and available to sign, if she dies you have an inherited partner, plus . . .

    Once the stress is relieved, then begins the greed

    Although this isn't a Subject To, for the lurkers, 

    Here's a post I did on Subject To that may help avoid some problems

    Using Subject To, to Get "Free" Properties

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/1060320-using-subject-to-to-get-free-properties-a-quick-guideline


     Okay, while I appreciate your input, it is definitely an assumption. I am unsure about what trul defines a subto. 

    In response to your "bring her mortgage current" comment, we did this through a processing fee paid at closing. It certainly wasn't hostile or taken hostage. 

    It is liable for the mortgage but is NOT on title (ie like a typical assumption/subto).

    I will read your article and would love to discuss ways I could improve on my creative finance with you. Thanks for your input.

  • Rental Property Investor · Accokeek, MD · Member since 2020 · 106 posts · 87 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Scott Gaspar:
    Quote from @Nate Marshall:
    Quote from @Scott Gaspar:
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:

    Creative financing is like thinking outside the box when it comes to buying or selling a house. It's all about finding alternative ways to structure the deal that works for both the buyer and the seller.

    One popular method is called "subject-to," or subto for short. Basically, it means that instead of getting a new loan, the buyer takes over the existing mortgage payments. They're still responsible for making those monthly payments, but they don't have to go through the whole process of getting a new loan. It can be super handy if someone can't qualify for a traditional mortgage or just wants to avoid all the hassle and fees.

    Another cool option is seller financing. Picture this: the seller becomes the lender! Instead of going to a bank, the buyer makes payments directly to the seller. It's like cutting out the middleman. This can be a win-win situation because the buyer gets some flexibility and the seller gets regular cash flow.

    You can see how our current interest rate market has made it tough to pencil out deals. So taking the creative approach can help ease the exit strategy, which (for me) is buy-n-holds. According to Google search engine, the average rates (as of 5/19/23) are 7.521%. So creative financing at a rate even 1% below the average can drastically affect your exit strategy. (FYI, an exit strategy is a fancy way of your plan for the property, like sell, rent, flip, etc)

    So when I started seeing all these videos from Pace Morby about how I could buy investment property at 2020 interest rates with no credit, no experience, and no money, I got excited!! However, I’ll give you a small spoiler alert, it didn’t pan out as I defined it in the beginning.

    How things started:

    • 30 day close
    • $6,000-$9,000 in expected closing costs
    • $50,000 rehab costs
    • Interest rate: 3.125%

    When we started this process, it was early December. In fact, it was 3 days prior to me having my shoulder reconstructed, which might be part of why this deal was stressful. The lender was Carrington Mortgage Services. One of the first things, I did was talk to the lender prior to signing the contract. Over the phone, I received approval to access the seller’s mortgage information (ie rates, loan term, etc) by the verbal approval of the seller. We asked several questions about how seamless the experience would be. They assured us that it would take more steps than normal but would result in about 30 days close.

    Once the seller and I talked a bit, we set out to close in 35 days…

    First rule: be more conservative if you can. Try to get better margins on your risks. Worried about losing money? Find reasons to ask the seller for a price decrease. Worried about not closing on time? Create a buffer.

    Well, anyways, as soon as we were assigned our loan officer. He laughed and said that there’d be no way we could close in 30 days but expected it to be worst case 60 days. So the seller agreed to the extension, because of limited options. So we proceeded on. As we approached 60 days, the bank very slowly asked for more paperwork after claiming several times that we were set. So it was clear to me, 60 days wasn’t going to happen.

    So we marched on. We were supposed to close on January 5th, but we extended it to late February. When late February wasn’t going to happen, we extended it to March 15th. The bank had a forbearance agreement with the seller, so we figured if we could close before the agreement expired (March), we’d successfully close this deal. Now, in case you don’t know, forbearance is basically a pause on mortgage payments. The bank allows you some time to catch up. This has become increasingly popular since COVID.

    As we entered March, the bank continued to fumble over what paperwork we needed. Between mid-February and mid-March, I emailed or called nearly once a day to our assigned loan processor/officer for updates. They would respond rarely but I could tell we were progressing but not at a rapid rate.

    Another lesson: I quickly learned that the banks had very little motivation in the assumption process. They clearly were not profiting off this transaction, which unfortunately gave me very little ability or leverage to make demands since they did NOT care at all. It’s clear to me that banks do not make much money in the maintenance of loans or buying loans in the secondary market (as Carrington Mortgage Services does), which leads me to question why anyone would want to run a business like that. But one of the three of YOU still reading this may be able to answer that. Regardless, let’s continue.

    When we were exiting the first week of March, I was hammering the lender, telling them that they were at risk of losing the transaction (an empty threat). I hammered on saying, “You need to produce the TRID CD.” For those interested, traditional lenders have to produce CD or closing disclosures 3 days before closing to allow buyers to review them for error. Trust me they are needed. I caught a ton of errors in their CD!

    Well, finally, we got a CD, which allowed us to close as soon as they sent the closing package to title. Well, they couldn’t produce that package until the day of closing, which wasn’t till 3/22. So yes, you guessed it!! We had to get the seller to sign another extension. So finally we reach the settlement day, title sent us the ALTA, and my jaw drops.

    The ALTA settlement sheet says the seller has to pay money. A lot of money. Like $1,200. So I talked to my title company, PR Title Group. (Btw, I highly recommend them. Whet and Tamra are fantastic. ) PR title says they inputted the closing numbers from the bank. Then, the bank claims that title is wrong. Well, surprise, surprise, the bank messed up yet again! The closing numbers were way higher than expected though! We had to bring her mortgage current. We also had to file a quit claim deed due to the way the deal had to be structured per VA assumption, according to the bank.

    But guess what we closed!!

    How things ended:

    • 30 day close
    • $23,000 in closing costs
    • $50,000 rehab costs
    • Interest rate: 3.125%

    Why would we want to close if the closing costs double? Can’t you see why not everyone would want to do this? It may sound easy but it’s not. It takes a lot of problem-solving. It takes immense faith in the process and your own ability.

    It’s not easy but it’s worth it. Here’s why we are okay with the new cost:

    • Purchase price: $246,000
    • Mortgage: $1450/mo (PITI included)
    • ARV: $380,000
    • Rehab costs: $50,000
    • All-in costs: $73,000
    • Gross rent: $2600/month
    • Gross cashflow: $1150/month
    • ROI: 18.90%

    Not bad in my opinion. Some of the value in this property is my experience. I learned so much about how these things worked. I stayed up late researching. I fought hard to make a deal work for the seller. We provided a great solution to a seller in need. Now, you may be asking, “Would you do it again?” And I would answer, “Heck yeah.”

    Expectations would be set and the deal would be a lot easier. Last lesson: In life, raising the bar for yourself starts with lowering the bar for everyone else. Be accountable, take ownership, and don’t expect it all to happen overnight.

    Your real estate friend,

    Zack McDonough


     Probably a dumb question but does anyone know of Pace posts on the forum? 


     No his henchmen do it for him! Kind of like a mafia capo or cartel boss. Keeping their hands off the product. 

    Lol, happy I’m not the only one that sees it this way, call me crazy but with all this attention to subto id be willing to bet we see a significant increase ins due on sale clauses being called 

     10000000%%%

  • Rental Property Investor · Accokeek, MD · Member since 2020 · 106 posts · 87 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Scott Gaspar:

    A non military person can fully assume a VA loan, it can create an issue though for the seller getting another VA loan depending on loan amount


    Exactly, that's what my seller is up against. As a civilian, I can't full take it off her hands. So she won't be able to use her VA

  • Rental Property Investor · Accokeek, MD · Member since 2020 · 106 posts · 87 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Jordan Malara:

    @Zachary McDonough I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insight into this process. Many online "marketers" of creative financing share this stuff like it's easy, which sets unrealistic expectations for people getting into it. You're right that banks/mortgage holders have very little incentive or drive to make the assumption process work. This means it requires a lot of flexibility and understand from both the buyer and seller end to weather the process and get the deal to closing. I had a similar VA assumption deal locked up for about 2 months for a buyer in Colorado Springs and unfortunately was not able to keep the seller in the deal after continuing to run into slow downs and challenges with the mortgage holder.

    Glad it worked out for you!


     Thanks so much for your kind words. This was my intention. I felt blinded by the intricacies required to close these apparently "very easy" deals. 
    Would I do it again? Yes. But expectations would be different. 

  • Real Estate Consultant · Evergreen, CO · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 738 votes
    3y

    Banks are becoming aware of Pace and sub  to investing strategy. They will use their lobbyists and power to shut him down. 

  • Samuel CoronadoPro Member
    Investor · Huntsville, AL · Member since 2016 · 348 posts · 182 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Vince Mayer:

    This is not a sub 2 deal. This is a VA assumption.


    Came here to say that. As a veteran, they are the most annoying things. We were always told that a VA assumption would be 2-4 months long.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nate Marshall:

    Banks are becoming aware of Pace and sub  to investing strategy. They will use their lobbyists and power to shut him down. 


     Nate the banks dont have to shut anyone down on sub too they simply invoke their rights under the Aleination clause  thats all they have to do and its a unilateral right the lender has as long as that clause is in the deed of trust or mortgage .. and virtually 99% have the clause. 

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    @Zachary McDonough

    Is there a plan to try to recoup the $73K?  That seems like a lot to spend to buy into this deal / this mortgage.

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:

    Creative financing is like thinking outside the box when it comes to buying or selling a house. It's all about finding alternative ways to structure the deal that works for both the buyer and the seller.

    Your comment: "So when I started seeing all these videos from Pace Morby about how I could buy investment property at 2020 interest rates with no credit, no experience, and no money, I got excited!! However, I’ll give you a small spoiler alert, it didn’t pan out as I defined it in the beginning."

    As I've watched the idea of "Subject To" morph from being a solid investment technique suitable for experienced, PROPERLY trained and well funded investors, to inexperienced "no credit, no experience, and no money" newbies, I 've just shaken my head. The amount of trouble these people are headed for.

    I just saw a recent video when he says over paying for a property makes sense. It does Not! And that isn't investing anyway.

    He seems to promote over paying in several of his videos. He says "I will pay $50,000 or $60,000 over listing price to get zero down and a low interest rate and nothing out of pocket".

    And he says the real estate agent will get their commission. So, if it's a typical agent listing and the listing agent gets his 3% - on a $600,000 house that would be about $18,000 plus the $50,000 over list, plus carrying costs for 6 months at $2500 per month ($15,000), that comes to something like $83,000 - none of which comes out of his pocket, he says. 30 minutes in at

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDoRITXplC8

    So,
    $50,000
    over listing price
    $18,000 agent fees
    $15,000 carrying costs - 6 months
    $83,000 total Over Asking, to get a low interest rate to make $300 a month cash flow which will take 276 months to recoup (23 years)

    Overleveraging is just gambling that the market doesn't change and that you will never have a vacancy or need repairs.

    I'm sorry you got sucked into his hype, I'm sorry for the sellers, I'm sorry for the gator lenders and the banks. Though I don't particularly care for banks, at all. But, the regulators and investigators DO care about banks and attorney's general DO care about sellers and when the SHTF, it'll be the attorneys making all the profits. 

    "Subject To" does work when done legally and wisely. It isn't being taught either way at the moment, by the guru of the week. 

    Yes, we do teach Subject To, but not his way. It includes so much more. How to avoid getting sued, and all of the "what to do ifs" that go with Creative Financing and when to use it, when not to use it and How to use it. Retirement, Legal, Tax, and other implications.

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:

    Creative financing is like thinking outside the box when it comes to buying or selling a house. It's all about finding alternative ways to structure the deal that works for both the buyer and the seller.

    Your comment: "So when I started seeing all these videos from Pace Morby about how I could buy investment property at 2020 interest rates with no credit, no experience, and no money, I got excited!! However, I’ll give you a small spoiler alert, it didn’t pan out as I defined it in the beginning."

    Why did you involve the bank? "learned that the banks had very little motivation in the assumption process."

    Subject To and Assumptions are two entirely different things.

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    .

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    3y

    @Mike Hern

    I bet this question was not asked by anyone who paid the extra $300 to hear him speak last week.

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • General Contractor · Palm Desert, CA · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 79 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Zachary McDonough:
    Quote from @Scott Gaspar:

    A non military person can fully assume a VA loan, it can create an issue though for the seller getting another VA loan depending on loan amount


    Exactly, that's what my seller is up against. As a civilian, I can't full take it off her hands. So she won't be able to use her VA


    It depends on how much the VA borrower is try to use. The current limit amount is $726k depending on the location.

  • General Contractor · Palm Desert, CA · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 79 votes
    3y

    The agent commissions and the closing costs that are negotiated, come from the SELLERS proceeds and become part of the purchase price. As a SubTo student who has been through quite a bit of the training, I have never heard anyone suggest to pay over listing price.

  • General Contractor · Palm Desert, CA · Member since 2016 · 197 posts · 79 votes
    3y

    Subject to is NOT an assumption. You don't even need to talk to the bank. This deal could have been closed in 30 days or less by a well trained creative financing transaction coordinator.

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    3y

    It’s AMAZING the nonsensical stuff that gurus come up with.  They take some technique or strategy that’s only workable or beneficial in a very tiny percentage of situations and generalize it as a major breakthrough.  Further, they retread strategies and techniques proven ineffectual or even dangerous in many economic climates, and tell their followers how they’ve perfected the strategy and made “millions” utilizing it.  Oh yeah, they don’t need the money from mentoring, they’re “giving back”.  
    I guess my greatest beef with most gurus (not all, some are actually honest and straightforward, and even offer marginally beneficial advice) is the following

    1- they’re dishonest in numerous ways

    2- completing their training in no way qualifies the student to earn money or even perform competently in real property field

    3- the techniques they teach are often harmful to the people their students deal with

    4- they unleash a horde of unprepared, unqualified, unknowledgeable, misguided and unaware newbies on an unsuspecting pool of desperate homeowners

    5- they sell the song that all formal education is a waste of time and money

    6- they never provide any audited proof that they have been successful in real estate investing
    7- they encourage people to pay for a mentorship plan they can’t afford by increasing the limit on their credit cards

    8- they create falsified accounts to post how great their program is

    9- their programs are packaged by professional seminar companies out of Provo, Utah or Las Vegas, Nevada

    10- they disparage people who have spent years accumulating the knowledge, experience and capital necessary to be successful in real estate

    11- SOME gurus teach techniques which are unethical, immoral and even illegal. 

    I await someone with 2 previous posts to tell me that I obviously don’t know what I’m talking about…

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Investor · Salt Lake City, UT · Member since 2019 · 339 posts · 126 votes
    3y

    This sounds like you did a loan assumption and not a subject to deal. 

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