Illegal immigrants as tenants
Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 12 votes
Illegal immigrants as tenants
Most Popular Reply
Residential Real Estate Broker · College Station, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 969 votes
8y@Philip Bennett. At least from a Texas standpoint - you could do whatever you desire.
First, being an "illegal immigrant" is not a "protected class". So, you are not discriminating against any of the "protected classes" - race, creed, familial status, etc.
Second, you have someone who cannot provide you with an acceptable completed application.
Third, the Texas Association of REALTORS Standard Application has a block for SSAN - you need that to accurately identify the person you are credit screening.
If you own the property, you can "NOT ACCEPT" the applicant without fear of retribution.
273 Replies
- Investor · Broken Arrow, OK · Member since 2016 · 210 posts · 314 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @John Kunick:
"Protected Class"???? What??? Is that some liberal catch-phrase? How does that even apply here? From what has been provided, there is an inability to complete an application. Enough said!
If you google the phrase "indirect discrimination" you will be better equipped to follow the discussion without the need for so many question marks.
Also if you decree that an application was rejected for incompleteness then you better make sure you haven't accepted one in the past or will accept one in the future from an applicant you deem(ed) to be more desirable.
@ihe o, thanks for what you think is a lesson. But, bet I've been an investor a lot longer than you have and been in business far longer. I understand indirect and indirect discrimination. I also understand stupid liberalism and not afraid to call it out.
In this case, the question was quite specific and said it was known that the tenants were illegal.
But, as to the landlord not knowing or making their business to know or not know, I make it my business to know who I'm renting to. I follow strict guidelines and make sure to apply them equally. I also document everything and make sure to communicate to any prospect that I don't end up renting to the exact reason that I decided to not rent to them.
- Real Estate Agent · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 3 votes8y
I've seen comments mentioning taking recourse on someone who is undocumented and damages the property and want to chime in.
I have experience with an individual who rented to someone who was undocumented and the tenant failed to pay rent for several months. It ultimately led to an eviction and the individual was able to take the tenant to small claims court where they were ordered to pay.
Knowing that, as long as the applicant meets your other criteria that you have for tenants I don't see immigration status as an issue.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
You said "I follow strict guidelines and make sure to apply them equally."
and the thing that you claim you understand is defined as
"when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others."
Shrugs. I'm done.
- Miami, FL · Member since 2017 · 8 posts · 6 votes8y
@Phillip Bennett: Hi, I am new to the board, however, I currently have a tenant whose immigration status may not be legal. They always pay on time and are probably the least likely of all my tenants to want to deal with the courts for any type of eviction. Just my personal experience.
- Investor · Northern, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 904 votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
I've seen comments mentioning taking recourse on someone who is undocumented and damages the property and want to chime in.
I have experience with an individual who rented to someone who was undocumented and the tenant failed to pay rent for several months. It ultimately led to an eviction and the individual was able to take the tenant to small claims court where they were ordered to pay.
Knowing that, as long as the applicant meets your other criteria that you have for tenants I don't see immigration status as an issue.
Exactly, and I don't consider it any of my business to ask them about it either. I just STFU do my job as a landlord and screen the applicant. I do my job. Let ICE do their job.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Mike White I do not know of a court that has ruled in the way that you suggest. There currently has not been a simple landlord "harboring" case go to the Supreme Court but there is a fairly large amount of case law.
https://cliniclegal.org/sites/default/files/harbor...
That link has much more information than most people will want to read.
Here is a quote that sums it up...
"In the housing context, harboring, thus far, also has been interpreted by the courts to require an affirmative act in addition to merely providing an apartment or house to rent. For instance, in Delrio-Mocci v. Connolly Props, the Third Circuit concluded that renting an apartment, in the normal course of business is not in and of itself harboring. Also, in United States v. Silveus, and United States v. Costello, the Third Circuit and Seventh Circuit Courts found that cohabitation without more is not enough to constitute harboring. That said, it seems reasonable to extrapolate from the case law that some circuit courts, including the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth, Eleventh, and Ninth Circuits, with the right set of facts, would determine that knowingly or recklessly providing housing to undocumented individuals could be enough (by itself) to establish a violation of the harboring provision."
With a landlord in the Whitehouse no matter how anti immigration he is, it is extremely unlikely that the government would decide to crack down on landlords more than they have in the past.
- Real Estate Investor · Panama City, FL · Member since 2012 · 265 posts · 58 votes8yI have had all good experiences if it’s a family. They have always paid and taken care of the place. They are worried to get in trouble and risk being deported.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
You said "I follow strict guidelines and make sure to apply them equally."
and the thing that you claim you understand is defined as
"when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others."
Shrugs. I'm done.
Interesting discussion for sure.
I don't see national origin or immigration status as a protected characteristic in the "indirect discrimination" argument under the Equality Act.
Please tell us where this situation fits within that framework.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - 8yMike WhitePro MemberAcworth, GA · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 21 votes
@Michael Briggs I appreciate the thoughtful and intelligent response. Thanks for the article, I will most definitely read it (I have only read your synopsis, as of now).
I am well aware that the Circuit Courts vary greatly in their interpretation and implementation of the law. I currently live in the Ninth Circuit, which is arguably the most liberal of all them. Let's just say I have some experience in the subject of immigration law.
My personal views are these; there are immigration laws in place and why take the chance of having your (not you specifically) name involved in more case law? Just because a prosecution hasn't happened yet, what happens when one does? I also personally prefer to maintain a high level of honesty and integrity in my business and would rather take the vacancy than to knowingly violate a federal law, regardless if there hasn't been a solid precedence of prosecution. I personally wouldn't be willing to take that chance, the money isn't worth it to me.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Mike White It is funny I live in the fifth circuit. I am probably much more like the person who would volunteer to have my case taken all the way to the Supreme Court to make a point.
- Specialist · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2013 · 260 posts · 245 votes8y
Best bet would be to have an american co-signer. If anything happens with immigration policy then you have covered your downside and can evict if need be. Most illegal immigrants know someone with a license and social security card.
- Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
This is an interesting situation. If you were a business (which I would consider you to be), you would be required to run them through the e-verify system. So, why isn't this different?
I think that if you require everyone over 18 to submit an application to be processed for credit and background, and this person is not able to do that, I think it is a simple NO decision. I don't think you need to dig any further than that, or measure any type of moral option. If you have a policy in place, and they are not able to follow it (for no fault of yours), then they can't proceed. PERIOD. In My Humble Opinion.
- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @John Kunick:
"Protected Class"???? What??? Is that some liberal catch-phrase? How does that even apply here? From what has been provided, there is an inability to complete an application. Enough said!
If you google the phrase "indirect discrimination" you will be better equipped to follow the discussion without the need for so many question marks.
Also if you decree that an application was rejected for incompleteness then you better make sure you haven't accepted one in the past or will accept one in the future from an applicant you deem(ed) to be more desirable.
I am going to go out on a limb and guess you are either part of the federal bureaucracy or the world of academia? Some of your theories just are not part of the world I live in. The whole "do on to others...." has seemed to work just fine for me so far
I have no problem leasing to illegal immigrants. Over the years they have been some of my best tenants.
- Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 611 votes8yIhe O. How is a tenants immigration status none of a landlords business? It can affect the landlords ability to due diligence as you can’t do any type of screening unless you are familiar with the country they are from and also if they can get gainful employment to pay their rent. As an immigrant myself I think this is ridiculous.
- Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 12 votes8y
Originally posted by @Mike White:
FYI, You should be aware that it is a federal crime to knowingly harbor an illegal immigrant, pursuant to 8 USC title 1324 (A)(III)
"Any person who - knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an has come to, entered, or remains in the in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation;"
Thanks for all the help everyone! The part I appreciate the most is this statement from @Mike White. Thanks! And to all the people that say keep politics out the decision...I don't understand the mindset that illegal immigration is political, it's more of a legal issue and I have to ensure I cover my actions correctly. Also, I may be going off on a tangent but if we had more landlords that wouldn't rent to individuals knowing that the tenants are illegally in the U.S. we may have a better handle on our nation's illegal immigration problem.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
You said "I follow strict guidelines and make sure to apply them equally."
and the thing that you claim you understand is defined as
"when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others."
Shrugs. I'm done.
Interesting discussion for sure.
I don't see national origin or immigration status as a protected characteristic in the "indirect discrimination" argument under the Equality Act.
Please tell us where this situation fits within that framework.
@Greg H. too. Yup me and these leading lawyers - we all crazy.
http://www.cih.org/news-article/display/vpathDCR/t...
@Tom Gimer - there is your answer.
- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
You said "I follow strict guidelines and make sure to apply them equally."
and the thing that you claim you understand is defined as
"when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others."
Shrugs. I'm done.
Interesting discussion for sure.
I don't see national origin or immigration status as a protected characteristic in the "indirect discrimination" argument under the Equality Act.
Please tell us where this situation fits within that framework.
@Greg H. too. Yup me and these leading lawyers - we all crazy.
http://www.cih.org/news-article/display/vpathDCR/t...
@Tom Gimer - there is your answer.
You send @Tom Gimer an article from the U.K. ? What does U.K. Law have to do with the US ? Do you have any case law from an appropriate jurisdiction?
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
You said "I follow strict guidelines and make sure to apply them equally."
and the thing that you claim you understand is defined as
"when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others."
Shrugs. I'm done.
Interesting discussion for sure.
I don't see national origin or immigration status as a protected characteristic in the "indirect discrimination" argument under the Equality Act.
Please tell us where this situation fits within that framework.
@Greg H. too. Yup me and these leading lawyers - we all crazy.
http://www.cih.org/news-article/display/vpathDCR/t...
@Tom Gimer - there is your answer.
You send @Tom Gimer an article from the U.K. ? What does U.K. Law have to do with the US ? Do you have any case law from an appropriate jurisdiction?
UK discrimination legislation was based off of the US Civil Rights Act and Supreme Court precedents at the time.
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=8a4...
Of course you are at liberty to continue believing that me and the lawyers who wrote the article you read are kookoo. I'm not going to spend any more of my time disabusing you of that notion.
- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
You said "I follow strict guidelines and make sure to apply them equally."
and the thing that you claim you understand is defined as
"when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others."
Shrugs. I'm done.
Interesting discussion for sure.
I don't see national origin or immigration status as a protected characteristic in the "indirect discrimination" argument under the Equality Act.
Please tell us where this situation fits within that framework.
@Greg H. too. Yup me and these leading lawyers - we all crazy.
http://www.cih.org/news-article/display/vpathDCR/t...
@Tom Gimer - there is your answer.
You send @Tom Gimer an article from the U.K. ? What does U.K. Law have to do with the US ? Do you have any case law from an appropriate jurisdiction?
UK discrimination legislation was based off of the US Civil Rights Act and Supreme Court precedents at the time.
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=8a4...
Of course you are at liberty to continue believing that me and the lawyers who wrote the article you read are kookoo. I'm not going to spend any more of my time disabusing you of that notion.
Another article from academia. I can search the internet and find articles that state the world is flat as well. Precedent from a court matters
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
You said "I follow strict guidelines and make sure to apply them equally."
and the thing that you claim you understand is defined as
"when there's a practice, policy or rule which applies to everyone in the same way, but it has a worse effect on some people than others."
Shrugs. I'm done.
Interesting discussion for sure.
I don't see national origin or immigration status as a protected characteristic in the "indirect discrimination" argument under the Equality Act.
Please tell us where this situation fits within that framework.
@Greg H. too. Yup me and these leading lawyers - we all crazy.
http://www.cih.org/news-article/display/vpathDCR/t...
@Tom Gimer - there is your answer.
You send @Tom Gimer an article from the U.K. ? What does U.K. Law have to do with the US ? Do you have any case law from an appropriate jurisdiction?
UK discrimination legislation was based off of the US Civil Rights Act and Supreme Court precedents at the time.
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=8a4...
Of course you are at liberty to continue believing that me and the lawyers who wrote the article you read are kookoo. I'm not going to spend any more of my time disabusing you of that notion.
Another article from academia. I can search the internet and find articles that state the world is flat as well. Precedent from a court matters
Then do your own search for the relevant statute and read it.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Ihe O. There isn't a relevant US statute, as far as I can tell. Unless and until there is, let's focus on how the current law applies.
The US version which isn't even good law concerns LGBT issues.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
@Ihe O. There isn't a relevant US statute, as far as I can tell. Unless and until there is, let's focus on how the current law applies.
The US version which isn't even good law concerns LGBT issues.
So what do you think the legal opposition to the President's travel ban is based on.
But if you think it's lawful to carve out policies for your rentals that have the effect of disproportionally disfavouring certain nationalities or immigrants I'm not your attorney so ......
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
So just to make sure I understand your position. "Do not perform Background checks/Credit checks or employment verification, because it may possibly effect one group more than another". Landlords should trust their applicants to be truthful. Got it!
- Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2017 · 241 posts · 135 votes8y
@Philip Bennett As several people stated in this thread , the fact that they are illegal is irrelevant. If you want to dismiss their application do it based on the ground that you don't have enough information (assuming its the case) not because they have an illegal status. If they can provide proof of income, references and all the information you asked for their status shouldn't be an issue.
Good luck
- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
@Ihe O. There isn't a relevant US statute, as far as I can tell. Unless and until there is, let's focus on how the current law applies.
The US version which isn't even good law concerns LGBT issues.
So what do you think the legal opposition to the President's travel ban is based on.
But if you think it's lawful to carve out policies for your rentals that have the effect of disproportionally disfavouring certain nationalities or immigrants I'm not your attorney so ......
Not to get to political, but few outside the 9th circuit and the Beltway believe there is. However, you are illustrating my point. The travel ban will wind through the courts and the decision will eventually be settled law. The discussion you have provided here is not settled law