Is this statement used to turn down Section 8 really legal?
Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 5 votes
Is this statement used to turn down Section 8 really legal?
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votesOriginally posted by @Brent Coombs:
Seems to me that many Landlords just don't want "Section 8" Tenants (not because their properties aren't up to scratch). On the other hand, my mate had a property in Youngstown that he wanted to rent out to Section 8, but his Property Manager disallowed such.
I'm posing this question for that mate: Just what is it that scares many Landlords/Property Managers from allowing Section 8 Applications (seeing as there is supposed to be a heavy burden upon those Tenants to keep the property in very good condition, while rent income is as-good-as assured)?...
reality there is no heavy burden on the tenant to keep them in great shape.. the opposite happens you need annual inspections and more times than not the tenant or their kiddos have done damage that the inspector will make the owner repair.
31 Replies
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes4y
Section 8 rentals must meet certain standards. If the home doesn't meet their standards then a denial is legal. For example, HUD requires each room to have heat. I have a house that doesn't have heat in one of the bedrooms, so it wouldn't qualify. Yes, the tenant could use a space heater, but I don't think that satisfies the HUD requirement.
I'm not an attorney or a Section 8 expert, but a quick search turned up this article: https://www.thebalancesmb.com/...
I recommend you check with your local Section 8 office for better guidance.
By the way, you can deny a Section 8 applicant for other reasons like poor credit, lack of Landlord reference, etc. You just can't deny Section 8 as a source of income.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes4y
It Is a clear Fair Housing violation to do that where source of income is a protected class.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes4y
Seems to me that many Landlords just don't want "Section 8" Tenants (not because their properties aren't up to scratch). On the other hand, a friend of mine had a property in Youngstown that he wanted to rent out to "Section 8" Tenants, but his Property Manager disallowed such.
I'm posing this question for that friend: Just what is it that scares many Landlords/Property Managers from allowing "Section 8" Applications (seeing as there is supposed to be a heavy burden upon those Tenants to keep the property in good condition, while rent income is as-good-as assured)?...
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:
Seems to me that many Landlords just don't want "Section 8" Tenants (not because their properties aren't up to scratch). On the other hand, my mate had a property in Youngstown that he wanted to rent out to Section 8, but his Property Manager disallowed such.
I'm posing this question for that mate: Just what is it that scares many Landlords/Property Managers from allowing Section 8 Applications (seeing as there is supposed to be a heavy burden upon those Tenants to keep the property in very good condition, while rent income is as-good-as assured)?...
reality there is no heavy burden on the tenant to keep them in great shape.. the opposite happens you need annual inspections and more times than not the tenant or their kiddos have done damage that the inspector will make the owner repair.
- Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes4y
But in San Antonio Texas things like a sloping floor (many old houses) that prevents a door from closing all the way means a section 8 issue.
A house does not have to be up to section 8 standards to find renters.
In San Antonio I have seen old houses rent with sloping floors, missing the glass from 3 windows, fireplaces crumbing onto the ground, birds inside, bugs inside, no screens, roofs that leak like a deluge, backdoor with no handle or lock, porch roof held up by a huge duck taped stack of books, grass 3 feet high, plywood over missing windows, some with a combination of these issues when the renter moved in and when they moved out.
That's in San Antonio.
Some would call it Slum housing, but there are no Slums in San Antonio, just some older not cared for homes in the older neighborhoods that some people rent mixed in with decent kept up houses. There seems to be a market for it.
I have seen a front door made from badly sawn pieces of a wooden palate nailed together and a rope to keep it closed--which I doubt would fly with Section-8, BUT you can't blame people for being poor and too proud to ask for government assistance. They need someplace to live too.
Places like that I doubt Section-8 will cut a monthly check for. They want their cared for people to live better than that.
I'm not putting San Antonio down, I love San Antonio and it's people. What a friendly place, with good food and the river walk, and tons of great neighborhoods. I was simply using it as an example from my experience of what would probably not fly with Section-8 for a monthly check.
I like San Antonio a lot.
Just my 2 cents.
- Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:
Seems to me that many Landlords just don't want "Section 8" Tenants (not because their properties aren't up to scratch). On the other hand, my mate had a property in Youngstown that he wanted to rent out to Section 8, but his Property Manager disallowed such.
I'm posing this question for that mate: Just what is it that scares many Landlords/Property Managers from allowing Section 8 Applications (seeing as there is supposed to be a heavy burden upon those Tenants to keep the property in very good condition, while rent income is as-good-as assured)?...
reality there is no heavy burden on the tenant to keep them in great shape.. the opposite happens you need annual inspections and more times than not the tenant or their kiddos have done damage that the inspector will make the owner repair.
Thanks Jay for that quick response. But, my friend is of the belief that those tenants and "their kiddos" would be kicked off the "Section 8" Program if they abuse the Rent subsidy provided by the "Section 8" Program.
Not so?
Are you saying that the Program itself has no teeth, or, that those same "abusers" just know how to "abuse" the system too?
Seems to me that America itself can be judged by the effectiveness (or otherwise) of the "Section 8" Program!
Happy New Year; may 2022 be better...
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:
Seems to me that many Landlords just don't want "Section 8" Tenants (not because their properties aren't up to scratch). On the other hand, my mate had a property in Youngstown that he wanted to rent out to Section 8, but his Property Manager disallowed such.
I'm posing this question for that mate: Just what is it that scares many Landlords/Property Managers from allowing Section 8 Applications (seeing as there is supposed to be a heavy burden upon those Tenants to keep the property in very good condition, while rent income is as-good-as assured)?...
reality there is no heavy burden on the tenant to keep them in great shape.. the opposite happens you need annual inspections and more times than not the tenant or their kiddos have done damage that the inspector will make the owner repair.
Thanks Jay for that quick response. But, my friend is of the belief that those tenants and "their kiddos" would be kicked off the "Section 8" Program if they abuse the Rent subsidy provided by the "Section 8" Program.
Not so?
Are you saying that the Program itself has no teeth, or, that those same "abusers" just know how to "abuse" the system too?
Seems to me that America itself can be judged by the effectiveness (or otherwise) of the "Section 8" Program!
Happy New Year; may 2022 be better...
it is somewhat market specific and I know people talk about section 8 tenants getting kicked off but my experience and I owned about 300 houses that had section 8 tenants in them. Is that the only way they got kicked off the program is if they lied about their income and became disqualified. Of course not 100% of section 8 tenants are rough on houses.. but keep in mind in many markets the section 8 tenant is a single mother with 2 to many kids and a few baby daddys that bounce in and out.. And young kids no matter WHO you are they are rough on houses.. you know crayons on the walls and other little stuff young kids do. So thats my experience with them. Plus in some markets trying to get them to pay the co pay is like pulling teeth. Not every market is the same though so keep that in mind. So every year you have a section 8 inspection and every year the inspector dings you for stuff the tenant did.
- Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2020 · 8 posts · 4 votes4y
@Nathan G. Totally agree with this. No need to mention the home does not meet Sec 8 guidelines, instead insist applicant(s) must meet the guidelines for acceptance: income = 3x rent, credit score of 600 or above, no evictions, and so on. If applicants do not meet criteria, you can deny them, w/o ever having to mention Sec 8. Good luck.
- Member since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votes4y
yes, it is legal. however, some people are looking for the lawsuits and some judges are activists. I do not even respond to sec8 inquiries. some advertising sites even have an option to exclude sec8 potential viewers from looking at your property but they still sip through.
- Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 5 votes4y
Thank you for the responses so far. Of course, folks on here are not likely attorneys, but it was worth a try asking.
I just find it interesting that people are using the phrase, “The building is not certified for section 8” instead of saying “sorry but we do not take section 8” when asked if vouchers are accepted.
I am guessing that if they were sued for an obvious attempt to skirt the law, they can say that they did not explicitly say that they don’t except section 8: they just simply stated that the building is not certified but obviously the statement is meant to have the same impact and I am wondering how such a thing can hold up in court. If landlords and property owners are increasingly using that phrase then there must be some kind of concerted effort.
- Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 5 votes4y
Originally posted by @Kar Sun:
yes, it is legal. however, some people are looking for the lawsuits and some judges are activists. I do not even respond to sec8 inquiries. some advertising sites even have an option to exclude sec8 potential viewers from looking at your property but they still sip through.
Not to get off topic, but I noticed that whenever judges stand up for the poor, working poor, women, people of color, immigrants, or religious minorities, they are always called activist judges.
Just my observation, or maybe I am imagining things.
- Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes4y
I don't really know the answer to whether or not that would be a violation but around here some of the section 8 properties are real sh*tholes so perhaps their inspector reputation for nit-picking is undeserved but according to the section 8 documentation 30%, (down from 50%) of the rentals fail their annual inspections. Given that, I don't think it's unreasonable to tell prospective tenants that you'll consider it but you aren't going to fix items you consider nitpicking and let them decide if they want to spend the time on it. They really kind of irked me back in the summer; Akron passed a source of income law and I tried to rent to a very nice lady with a voucher but they won't tell you up front their algorithm for determining "rent reasonableness" and they deemed me unreasonable for the market after d*cking around for 2 weeks. I had rented three other identical units for that price within the last 6 months and I rented that unit for $675 three days after section 8 decided they wouldn't pay my price of $650. Generally, I have a waiting list and my rent price is not negotiable.
- Member since 2021 · 388 posts · 277 votes4y
Originally posted by @Robert Jackson:
Originally posted by @Kar Sun:
yes, it is legal. however, some people are looking for the lawsuits and some judges are activists. I do not even respond to sec8 inquiries. some advertising sites even have an option to exclude sec8 potential viewers from looking at your property but they still sip through.
Not to get off topic, but I noticed that whenever judges stand up for the poor, working poor, women, people of color, immigrants, or religious minorities, they are always called activist judges.
Just my observation, or maybe I am imagining things.
No. Standing up for the poor is not the same as being an activist. We do not need to stand up for the poor. We need justice regardless of the status. Have you seen the statue of justice? Its eyes are covered. I do not need virtue signalers living in million dollar mansions behind iron gates with private security and flying private jets pretending to be standing up for the poor at the expense of the middle class. They stand up "for the poor" yet they wont do a thing about american liberties. They just use the poor as a wedge to create a havoc. And, yes, you are getting off the topic and you are "imagining things".
- Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 5 votes4y
Originally posted by @Jill F.:
I don't really know the answer to whether or not that would be a violation but around here some of the section 8 properties are real sh*tholes so perhaps their inspector reputation for nit-picking is undeserved but according to the section 8 documentation 30%, (down from 50%) of the rentals fail their annual inspections. Given that, I don't think it's unreasonable to tell prospective tenants that you'll consider it but you aren't going to fix items you consider nitpicking and let them decide if they want to spend the time on it. They really kind of irked me back in the summer; Akron passed a source of income law and I tried to rent to a very nice lady with a voucher but they won't tell you up front their algorithm for determining "rent reasonableness" and they deemed me unreasonable for the market after d*cking around for 2 weeks. I had rented three other identical units for that price within the last 6 months and I rented that unit for $675 three days after section 8 decided they wouldn't pay my price of $650. Generally, I have a waiting list and my rent price is not negotiable.
I am so sorry you went through this. One thing I can agree on is that while it has its benefits, the program has way too much bureaucracy and red tape. There has been many bills introduced in congress to make the program much easier, but there is no political will to pass such legislation. The program has failed both tenants and property owners in a lot of ways. But, I will still say it has more benefits than not.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Kar Sun:
yes, it is legal. however, some people are looking for the lawsuits and some judges are activists. I do not even respond to sec8 inquiries. some advertising sites even have an option to exclude sec8 potential viewers from looking at your property but they still sip through.
Only in 18 states would it be legal. The rest it is either explicitly illegal in the entire state (Such as California), or part of the state (Such as Texas where it is illegal in Dallas and Austin).
Specifically in California where the question is being asked about, both the prospective tenants, as well as DEFH (Department of Fair Employment and Housing) can bring suit against the landlord and collect "seeking remedies that may include recovery of out-of-pocket losses, an injunction prohibiting the unlawful practice, access to housing that the landlord denied, damages for emotional distress, civil penalties or punitive damages, and attorney’s fees."
A recent case was settled for $72,000.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 5 votes4y
Originally posted by @Kar Sun:
Originally posted by @Robert Jackson:
Originally posted by @Kar Sun:
yes, it is legal. however, some people are looking for the lawsuits and some judges are activists. I do not even respond to sec8 inquiries. some advertising sites even have an option to exclude sec8 potential viewers from looking at your property but they still sip through.
Not to get off topic, but I noticed that whenever judges stand up for the poor, working poor, women, people of color, immigrants, or religious minorities, they are always called activist judges.
Just my observation, or maybe I am imagining things.
"No. Standing up for the poor is not the same as being an activist. We do not need to stand up for the poor. We need justice regardless of the status. Have you seen the statue of justice? Its eyes are covered. I do not need virtue signalers living in million dollar mansions behind iron gates with private security and flying private jets pretending to be standing up for the poor at the expense of the middle class. They stand up "for the poor" yet they wont do a thing about american liberties. They just use the poor as a wedge to create a havoc. And, yes, you are getting off the topic and you are "imagining things".
And why should we not stand up for the poor? Isn't it literally the job of the government to look out for the well-being of all Americans and uphold the quality of life for all?
Moreover, standing up for the poor does not come at the expense of the middle class. There is no imperial evidence to support such a claim, making it more of an ideological opinion than fact. What is actually hurting the middle class is giant corporations like amazon who pay 0 in federal taxes while our teachers and nurses have to. But blame the poor?
- Member since 2021 · 6 posts · 5 votes4y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Kar Sun:
yes, it is legal. however, some people are looking for the lawsuits and some judges are activists. I do not even respond to sec8 inquiries. some advertising sites even have an option to exclude sec8 potential viewers from looking at your property but they still sip through.
Only in 18 states would it be legal. The rest it is either explicitly illegal in the entire state (Such as California), or part of the state (Such as Texas where it is illegal in Dallas and Austin).
Specifically in California where the question is being asked about, both the prospective tenants, as well as DEFH (Department of Fair Employment and Housing) can bring suit against the landlord and collect "seeking remedies that may include recovery of out-of-pocket losses, an injunction prohibiting the unlawful practice, access to housing that the landlord denied, damages for emotional distress, civil penalties or punitive damages, and attorney’s fees."
A recent case was settled for $72,000."
Where can you find these cases?
- Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes4y
@Jay Hinrichs, you wrote: "every year you have a section 8 inspection and every year the inspector dings you for stuff the tenant did". Now I'm starting to get the picture.
You also wrote: "in some markets trying to get them to pay the co pay is like pulling teeth".
Now I'm getting more of the picture. Thanks again.
I'll mention those points to my friend. Maybe he'll be glad he "had" a property in Youngstown, rather than pining for what he thinks might have been, if only his Property Manager had let "Section 8" folk Rent that home rather than more-or-less make him Sell it - which he (wisely) did.
[I think my friend may have been sucked in by 'Seminar Gurus' who say: "Section 8" makes buying property in America the same as finding endless pots of gold]. Cheers...
- Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes4y
Although not the Section 8 program per se, I had the same issues as Jay trying to collect on the tenant's portion of the rent in the one rental I have owned with a subsidized tenant. Trying to enlist the agency only caused delay in seeing any rent at all as the agency was keen on trying to get this tenant off the program. He was a pro, though, and used the available appeal process and emergency protections written into the law to ward off eviction and to get payments reinstated. I suspect many section 8 landlords get into this situation where they collect the amount of rent the agency pays them.
- Property Manager · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 728 posts · 596 votes4y
@Brent Coombs
It not the section 8 applicants that scare me. It partnering with an entity, the government, that has none of my interests at heart, and may very well want to see me fail. Do they care about my success, no. Do they care if I succeed, no. If a tenant trashes my property, do they assist me in fixing it, no. They have no financial risk, and yet they tell me how ro run my business. No thanks.
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:
@Jay Hinrichs, you wrote: "every year you have a section 8 inspection and every year the inspector dings you for stuff the tenant did". Now I'm starting to get the picture.
You also wrote: "in some markets trying to get them to pay the co pay is like pulling teeth".
Now I'm getting more of the picture. Thanks again.
I'll mention those points to my friend. Maybe he'll be glad he "had" a property in Youngstown, rather than pining for what he thinks might have been, if only his Property Manager had let "Section 8" folk Rent that home rather than more-or-less make him Sell it - which he (wisely) did.
[I think my friend may have been sucked in by 'Seminar Gurus' who say: "Section 8" makes buying property in America the same as finding endless pots of gold]. Cheers...
there is a balance and there are plenty of landlords that do very well with section 8 but they work it and frankly in many markets or in certain class properties if you were categorizing them as A B C D class section 8 dominates the C D in many markets in the US and in those class of rentals and in those certain markets section 8 pays MORE than free market rent and is more reliable on payment once you get them in at least for the year they are there.. the issues come with collecting co pay and like I said anytime you get a house full of kids and baby daddys bouncing in and out your property is going to take more wear and tear than say renting to well qualified no kids non section 8 in a Better class A B area and rental. So as long as you know that going in you just have to adjust your methods and thought process to deal with it. And during Covid many section 8 landlords were very happy they had govmit paying them. However in a non covid environment those are the issues be them good issues or bad issues its up to the investor and for gurus to say guaranteed rent this is simply not true. Govmit will pay as long as houses pass inspection every year the tenants dont lie about their financial and family situation etc.. And of course co pay is another issue.. in our case we never had Section 8 threaten or take away their voucher over non pay of their co pay.. But that was the markets we are in I cant say it would be the same in every market.
So on the co pay it can be everywhere from 10 bucks a month to half the rent. with many co pays at 25 to 75 dollars.. so what is the landlord going to do the tenant does not pay their 25 or 50 bucks out of 900 of rent. You going to evict them over that ? Well I have seen some bonehead PM's file eviction or that or clueless landlords. So these tenants who maybe are multi generational section 8 and know the laws and rules better than most simply know that chances that someone starts an eviction over these small dollars is rare. So you have the out of area investor crunching their return calculators and now the 8.75% return just dropped below their criteria :) So what do you do ?
in these areas as well you evict and now you have a vacant house it gets hit by vandals or you have 3 to 6 months of no rent all over what would amount to 600.00 for the year ??? you see the dilemma this puts the landlord in it throws their return calculator off and now what was a good investment in their mind changes to shoot we are not making the return we bargained for.
So bottom line when you buy these assets and rent in the C D realm you need to be uber conservative on your yearly fix up costs your bad debt calculations etc.. if it still works go for it.. but dont buy a C D class and think you going to only have 30% running costs unless your self managing.
- 4yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Robert Jackson When RI allowed you to deny section 8 I would post a similar statement. I still got calls and explained that even though the property was nice since I don't have overhead lights in some rooms I would anticipate that would fail. The bigger issue though was that by the time the government inspections were done, it would be rented.
Now last time I posted a rental I talked with a housing advocate who put me in touch with 3 prospective section 8 tenants. (Tenant1) had a pending eviction (tenant2) admitted to under the table income (3) was an older woman great fit for a year or two but was losing her mobility so I wasn't a long term fit for her.
- Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes4y
Absolutely not.
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