Dealing with Tenants who are bringing up laws.

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Dealing with Tenants who are bringing up laws.

Louis W.
Real Estate Agent · Oakland, CA · Member since 2018 · 54 posts · 42 votes

Hi BP community,

I am pretty new to running a rental property. I recently took over managing a property for family in the San Francisco. I was discussing rent and property situation with my tenants, and they got pretty heated and threaten me with legal jargons. I am pretty ignorant of the laws and wondering how should I approach this issue going forward.

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Chris Szepessy
Catskill, NY · Member since 2018 · 636 posts · 668 votes
7y

Sounds like it might be best to NOT sign a new lease with them. Give them their 30 day notice (or whatever is necessary in your area) and find better tenants. When tenants start "threatening" to withhold rent or start throwing around legal terms, it usually doesn't end well. 99% of the time they have zero idea what they're even talking about. 

Is this your property or are you just managing it? From the little info we have, it sounds as if the tenants are mad that their rent is going to go up and they are looking for reasons for it not to. 

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  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y

    @Louis W.

    "going forward, and fixing any necessary repair meanwhile."

    I would strongly advise against that unless you fully understand the legal requirements to do so. Your tenants are going to turn everything against you that you do. Do not expect that they will be happy that you are doing repairs. Cross the line on any of their legal rights and you risk getting crucified. Do nothing without experienced assistance. If you are planning on doing repairs you need to hire a PM first.

    You are way outside of your skill set when it comes to this type of tenant.

    0Reply
  • Jim K.
    Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    @Louis W.

    There's always this effect when a new landlord posts a problem they're having here in this forum -- everyone starts to pile on. A lot of us have been in your position, Louis, with a tenant who has this deep-seated need to pull crap like this. Nine times out of ten, it's nothing. For the last one, you need to know the law in your area, have your lawyer's card in your wallet, and be ready to proceed with non-renewal and eviction if you have to.

    For now, I'd learn the law in my area and start contacting lawyers. Your ideal landlord's lawyer will have handled a lot of evictions and will have experience working with small landlords. S/he will not be cheap. Good luck to you.


    I have heard there are troubles, of more than one kind.
    Some come from ahead, and some come from behind.
    But I've bought a big bat, I'm all ready, you see.
    Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!

    Dr. Seuss

    8Reply
  • Christopher Lombardi
    Developer · Point Pleasant Beach, NJ · Member since 2015 · 303 posts · 216 votes
    7y

    @Louis W. from what I understand, in California landlords basically have no rights.   I would hire an attorney for this one because it sounds like it could get messy.  This is why its so important to thoroughly vet your tenants.  Any eviction history, criminal record, or recent mark on a credit report should be enough to not rent to someone.    Best of luck to you.  

    0Reply
  • Kyle J.
    Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    @Louis W.  Even though the old lease expired, you do still have a month-to-month agreement with these tenants.  And since you said the property is in San Francisco, something to be aware of before you do anything - including raising the rent or serving a 30 day notice - is understanding how the rent control laws apply. 

    Depending on the type of property, you may be limited on how much you can increase the rent.  And if the property is actually in the city of San Francisco, you likely won't just be able to serve the tenant a 30 day notice and end their tenancy as some have suggested.  You may only be able to get them out for "just cause". 

    You can do more reading on that here: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/rights-month-to-month-tenants-8104.html

    However, at this point it sounds like it's time to consult with an attorney and/or a professional property management company in the area since the tenants are already threatening legal action.

    Good luck and hope it works out for you.

    1Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Louis W.:

    I realized that I am too ignorant to do this managing job. What should be my next steps? Hire a property manager? Hire Lawyers? 

    I would hire a property manager before a lawyer. They will know the law and they will have processes to deal with maintenance, rent increases, etc.

    1Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:

    @Louis W.

    There's always this effect when a new landlord posts a problem they're having here in this forum -- everyone starts to pile on. A lot of us have been in your position, Louis, with a tenant who has this deep-seated need to pull crap like this. Nine times out of ten, it's nothing. For the last one, you need to know the law in your area, have your lawyer's card in your wallet, and be ready to proceed with non-renewal and eviction if you have to.

    For now, I'd learn the law in my area and start contacting lawyers. Your ideal landlord's lawyer will have handled a lot of evictions and will have experience working with small landlords. S/he will not be cheap. Good luck to you.


    I have heard there are troubles, of more than one kind.
    Some come from ahead, and some come from behind.
    But I've bought a big bat, I'm all ready, you see.
    Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me!

    Dr. Seuss

    dont know about SF  but in Portlandia another middle of the road tenant friendly market.  there is an eviction service. its all they do and they are pretty reasonable at least back in my days when i owned rents in the area..  I think they were set fee at 600.00 per. and they never lose..  worst is you get a call for some negotiation the judge made them do.  Also I would join whatever landlords association is in the bay area i know there is one and i bet it pretty robust.. this is where you learn the local laws and how to enforce them.  

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    4Reply
  • Joseph Walsh
    Brookfield, WI · Member since 2016 · 191 posts · 108 votes
    7y

    Be sure to look at the initial rental agreement.  There may be language as to the nature of the rental situation post lease expiration.  Then look at your local laws, and give them the appropriate notices.  They are trouble makers.  Also, expect some damage on the way out.  You might even want to consider the "bribe" to get them out method (look, if you're out by the 15th, and there's no damage on inspection, I'll give you an additional $400 for moving expenses...whatever), then get a good tenant with a solid rental agreement in place.   "Training" a new tenant is a lot easier than "retraining" an existing/problem one, and retraining takes a certain personality/skill set that most people don't have, I don't.   You likely are going to need an attorney, OR, maybe using a PM company for a year could be worth it, they are experts you can learn from.

    0Reply
  • Ahmed Saad
    Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2008 · 92 posts · 59 votes
    7y

    I think you have a clear consensus of what you need to do. 

    1) Hire a landlord-oriented attorney. 

    2) I'd look in to getting a property manager for this situation. Even if the cost is a bit more than you want, it's better to make sure that you PERSONALLY don't get dragged into this vis a vis social media, visits to your home etc. Let some one else be the bad guy.

    3) As @Marcia Maynard said; document everything.

    4 The only thing I would add that hasn't already been said is that make sure you are actually dealing with the legal tenant. I had tenant that would have her pushy boyfriend call me at all hours to 'demand' X Y and Z. Obviously he had no standing to ask for anything since he wasn't on the lease. I nipped that sh*t in the bud real quick.

    5) Also make sure you don't accept rent from someone not named on the lease.

    2Reply
  • Redgy Saint-Germain
    Developer · Boston, MA · Member since 2017 · 249 posts · 135 votes
    7y

    @Louis W.

    Some states requires a written  "repairs request"  prior to withholding rent. Tenants ALWAYS think they know they law ,  I would go online on your state's website to double check. Also what happens at the end of your lease ? does it terminate or roll into a month to month lease? You may be able to start the eviction process right away :)

    Good luck 

    0Reply
  • Zach F.Business Member
    Property Manager · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2016 · 82 posts · 55 votes
    7y

    I agree with @Nathan Gesner, most "professional tenants" know how to really work a new or inexperienced landlord.  The second you show any signs of weakness, you are going to get hammered by the tenants with demands/threats/etc.  

    This is a good example of how a property manager can make your life exponentially less stressful.  We have gotten all kinds of demands/threats to "take this to the local news" and since we know all our local rules inside and out, we can stomp that fire out real quick.  

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  • Alex Penalva
    Kearny, NJ · Member since 2017 · 45 posts · 11 votes
    7y

    @Louis W. Since you claim to know nothing about real estate and tenant laws I suggest you invest in an attorney. That way you’ll be best informed.

    0Reply
  • Michael Ealy
    Developer · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    As someone who has acquired over 1,000 apartment units (and dealt with THOUSANDS of tenants - well - not me directly but through my property managers)...here's what I've learned:

    Don't let the tenants threaten or bully you. If you can, legally kick them out. Life's too short to be bullied by tenants. 

    If you follow the above advice, you'll have some hair left by the time you're my age (LOL).

    5Reply
  • Blake Cooper
    Wichita, KS · Member since 2018 · 29 posts · 9 votes
    7y

    I agree with Chris Szepessy, 99% of the time they have no idea what they are talking about, and it would be best to find tenants that will work out better with a fresh lease agreement. HOWEVER, there is always the chance that they could be part of the 1%, and will royally screw you. I recommend you consult a lawyer, and find out whether or not you are within your rights to issue them their notice. 

    0Reply
  • Phil Chadbourn
    Rental Property Investor · Bethlehem, PA · Member since 2018 · 13 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    @Louis W.

    I would check the original Lease first off, to see what happens after it expires.

    I would check with a lawyer your get a referral to.

    I wouldn’t necessarily say run and get a Property manager as suggested as this can be a good way to learn the ropes. The lawyer can get you out of this situation anyway and/or just have the PM company do it themselves.

    ****ALSO**** you might not be licensed properly to manage properties that you don’t own yourself. I’m not sure if there’s some family relation stipulation to this but in many states you have to be a licensed broker (or working through one) and also need another license for property management as well in order to manage properties for other people *****

    0Reply
  • Albert Ng
    Rental Property Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 401 posts · 221 votes
    7y

    SF has strict rent control laws. I would document everything, and talk to a good eviction lawyer. If there’s anything the tenants did (withholding rent payment) that you can use for eviction, you hit the jackpot. Get them out & you will get much better tenants and much higher rent.

    1Reply
  • Tony Kim
    Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 844 posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Louis W.:

    There is no lease agreement anymore. The old one long expired. So, I want to discuss signing a new lease with an increased rate. They bring many issues about the rental unit and refuse to discuss a new lease. They talk about cutting their rent payment because they spend money to fix issues themselves. They threaten me with legal means and bring it the attention to local anti-gen support groups

    It's a mistake to bring up increased run to any tenant verbally in person.  There is actually NOTHING to discuss. The rent is going up and that's all there is to it. Just send them a notice that their rent is going to increase 3% or whatever the maximum annual allowed amount is. 

    As for the money they spent on making repairs, ask for receipts or some sort of proof of expense and if it is genuinely the type of expense that should be covered by the landlord, just provide reimbursement. But I agree with @Albert Ng If you could somehow get these hippie jokers off your property, that would be the best scenario. 

    1Reply
  • David Ho
    Investor · Frankfort, IL · Member since 2014 · 55 posts · 15 votes
    7y

    Send them a 90 day notice to terminate the rent " For remodeling purposes"  sometimes you need to shoot one to save many.

    1Reply
  • Mike G.
    Real Estate Agent · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2016 · 589 posts · 275 votes
    7y

    @Louis W. Find out exactly how long it takes to evict them (ie: 30 notice of eviction or 5 day pay or quit, which ever your city uses) and get rid of them. They will always complain about something and once you resolve this and that then it will be something else. Teach them a lesson, you dont want their money or headaches. Evict them and find new tenants with a tighter lease agreement and higher rents. 

    0Reply
  • Patrick C. Sullivan
    Realtor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2018 · 8 posts · 7 votes
    7y

    @Louis W. evict them as soon as possible. they will be nothing but trouble.

    1Reply
  • Linda Ray
    Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 1 vote
    7y

    Seems there is a reason they didn't want to manage this unit themselves! Check and see what actually needs to be done in the flat, could very well be repairs needed and their concerns are justified. 

    0Reply
  • Dennis M.
    Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y

    Lots of good solid advise . If there’s anything I could add it would be about tenants throwing around legal jargon and their rights. When I hear stuff like the buzz words words ; courts lawyers laws or attorneys etc. I immediately tell myself in mind that I have no future business with this person . I begin to consider ways of getting this tenant out of my life and my rental . I will not tolerate being threatened . I don’t reason or negotiate with these types

    4Reply
  • Scott L.
    Broomfield, CO · Member since 2012 · 47 posts · 43 votes
    7y

    Don't ever let a tenant threaten or intimidate you. If they do, they need to leave as its only the tip of the ice burg.

    In Colorado a lease goes month to month when it expires and either tenant or manager can give 30 days written notice to leave. I don't know about SF/CA laws.

    2Reply
  • William Coet
    Lititz, PA · Member since 2013 · 595 posts · 272 votes
    7y

    Sounds like they've seen this coming and were ready for you.   Ask yourself if they will be doing any favors for you anytime soon? 

     If they owned the house, would they let you stay at a discount?

    0Reply
  • Julie MarquezPro Member
    Investor · Skagit County, WA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 807 votes
    7y

    @Louis W. @Marcia Maynard Whatever Marcia says! She always has the best, well-written advice here. Thank you for your contributions, Marcia! I've copied and saved some of your responses in the past

    1Reply
  • Justin R.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · San Anselmo · Member since 2015 · 659 posts · 600 votes
    7y

    @Louis W. This is exactly why I use property management, and practice anonymity.

    Try and build management cost into your underwriting and focus on acquisitions.

    0Reply
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