Evicting for discharge of firearm in the house
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Kingston, NY · Member since 2017 · 252 posts · 138 votes
7y@Jason C.
Accidental discharge? Someone was playing with a loaded gun inside your property. PLAYING. It was either a kid or an adult so in either case the adult is incompetent. Let’s say they don’t kill their neighbors. They still put holes in your walls. Even a BB gun will do that. If they do harm their neighbors you better believe that you’ll get sued for letting this go on.
Do you really want incompetent gun owners who have loud parties on your property?
27 Replies
Why would there be liability for you to let them stay? Guns are legal. Liability is on the tenant. If tenant had a habit of getting drunk and shooting off the gun, maybe you'd have some liability. But tenant had once accident (it might not even have been him, it could have been the friend).
I'm not sure you'd be able to evict for this. It's a single incident of an accident. Not an act of violence of illegal behavior.
- Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2019 · 512 posts · 301 votes7y
@Jason C. I really don’t know much about this subject but when I bought s gun I was told by the dude there are two kinds of bullets.
There are bullets that are made for self defense in the sense that if you shoot it indoors, it won’t go through walls and kill the neighbor. It also would help the person shooting from being sued
Then there are recreational bullets that are dangerous indoors and will go through a lot of stuff and are a huge liability! Like even if you shot at an intruder, those bullets are riskier and you could get sued still for firing them indoors.
This is probably something you’d have to look at state laws but accidental discharge can be a misdemeanor or felony.
I’m not too sure about any of this and will definitely be following this discussion
- Kingston, NY · Member since 2017 · 252 posts · 138 votes7y
@Jason C.
Accidental discharge? Someone was playing with a loaded gun inside your property. PLAYING. It was either a kid or an adult so in either case the adult is incompetent. Let’s say they don’t kill their neighbors. They still put holes in your walls. Even a BB gun will do that. If they do harm their neighbors you better believe that you’ll get sued for letting this go on.
Do you really want incompetent gun owners who have loud parties on your property?
- Rental Property Investor · CT · Member since 2019 · 105 posts · 68 votes7y
@Jason C.
Did you talk to your lawyer? I ask this because I had a tenant that snuck an “emotional support animal” on to my property - a pit bull. This pit bull went and bit my downstairs tenant. The downstairs tenant was scared for her life after that and wanted to move - and she was a great tenant. Long story short my lawyer said I would have a VERY difficult time evicting the tenant with the pitbull, and that I had to send notice to her with a grace period to allow for her to correct the default, and after that I could evict if she did not correct the terms of the lease she was breaking. Since it was a one time dog bite, this didn’t help.
Not sure what state your in but here in CT, judges are very tenant friendly. If I sent her proper notice of violating the terms of the lease and she did it again, the judge might still rule in favor of the tenant. I had one judge actually renegotiate my rent in court saying he thought I was charging too much. It’s rediculous. So my point is, if your in a tenant friendly state, you may go thru all the hassle of evicting and get no where other then having an angry tenant who ends up remaining in place anyway and then just destroys your apartment before he/she finally does leave to try to get back at you.
So, send him written notice of violating section x x of the lease - violence on the property, AND make sure you also note something in there for violating the section of your lease that requires he maintain proper noise levels.
This way if it happens again, you have a leg to stand on in court.
Act like your doing him a favor and telling him you will withdraw the eviction, but if it happens again, or the noise continues, they are out. They might be greatful. In return, you could ask of them that they go next door and personally apologize to the next door tenant and have them try to offer an explaination of the accident. Hopefully the good tenant will remain in place.
It all depends on what your lease says.
Here is some language in mine that covers criminal activity (however, if no charges were filed, then your situation probably wouldn't apply):
11. CRIME-FREE / DRUG-FREE: You, a guest or other person under your control shall not engage in illegal activity on the Premises or near enough to adversely affect it or other residents.
This includes:
a. Drug-related illegal activity. "Drug-related illegal activity" means the illegal manufacture, sale, distribution, purchase, use or possession with intent to manufacture, sell, distribute, or use of a controlled substance (as defined in Section 102 or the Controlled Substance Act [21 U.S.C. 802]) or possession of drug paraphernalia.
b. Permitting the dwelling or grounds to be used for, or to facilitate illegal activity, including drug-related illegal activity.
c. Engaging in acts of violence or threats of violence, including but not limited to the unlawful discharge of firearms, prostitution, criminal street gang activity, intimidation, or any other breach of the Lease that otherwise jeopardizes the health, safety or welfare of the Landlord, his Agents or Tenants.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, many of the anecdotes above (including the OP) could be avoided by only offering MTM leases. Then, you don't have to comb through your lease looking for some provision to hang your hat on in court to try and evict a paying tenant. If you don't like how the tenant is conducting themselves, you issue a 30-day notice of termination (check your local laws) and you can both part ways relatively painlessly.
I'm partial to law-abiding gun owners, but I would definitely be less than thrilled that an accident of this nature occurring in one of my properties. If you do not act on this incident it could create some culpability for you (in my non-legal opinion) in the future if something similar happened and someone is injured.
At the risk of infringing on someone's constitutional rights, I might require that this particular tenant, based on their demonstrated lack of responsibility with a firearm, sign a lease addendum prohibiting them (or their invitees) from bringing firearms on the premises. Again, without a MTM lease, you may have to wait until lease renewal to implement this without their cooperation.
- 7yTheresa HarrisPro MemberMember since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
@Frank Maratta I can't believe they let the dog stay-here that dog would have been destroyed after one bite regardless if it is a 'support' animal.
@Jason C. The tenant invited someone into the house with a loaded gun who then shot someone (even if it was accidental). It shows poor judgement. If you don't evict them, use what Frank and Wesley said and get them to sign something about noise levels and violence or threats of violence. Your other tenant has the right to feel safe in their home.
@Jason C. There is no doubt I would continue with an eviction. An illegal and dangerous act was committed inside your property. Accident or not, someone was shot on your property, they have to go.
- Rental Property Investor · CT · Member since 2019 · 105 posts · 68 votes7y
@Theresa Harris
Animal services did take the dog. But I believe she did get it back. Anyways I was lucky enough that she left on her own after two weeks because the downstairs tenant tried to sue both me and her.
The whole “emotional support” service animal thing needs to be controlled better by the fair housing authority. Almost anyone can apply for an emotional support animal and they don’t have to report it to the landlord because it’s not considered a pet, it’s a “service animal”. I had a no pet policy on this apartment, and sure enough, the tenant put “no pets” on her application.
What’s even worse is I had a friend who was leasing an apartment of his own and had a “prospective tenant” call asking her if he allowed emotional support animals. His response was “I’m not sure what that is but I don’t allow pets”. Well, turns out, that that “prospective tenant” was actually a feeler put out by the fair housing authority, and sure enough they called him back to let him know he was in violation of fair housing laws and discriminating against service animals. So moral of the story BE CAREFUL
- Rental Property Investor · CT · Member since 2019 · 105 posts · 68 votes7y
@Theresa Harris
Animal services did take the dog. But I believe she did get it back. Anyways I was lucky enough that she left on her own after two weeks because the downstairs tenant tried to sue both me and her.
The whole “emotional support” service animal thing needs to be controlled better by the fair housing authority. Almost anyone can apply for an emotional support animal and they don’t have to report it to the landlord because it’s not considered a pet, it’s a “service animal”. I had a no pet policy on this apartment, and sure enough, the tenant put “no pets” on her application.
What’s even worse is I had a friend who was leasing an apartment of his own and had a “prospective tenant” call asking her if he allowed emotional support animals. His response was “I’m not sure what that is but I don’t allow pets”. Well, turns out, that that “prospective tenant” was actually a feeler put out by the fair housing authority, and sure enough they called him back to let him know he was in violation of fair housing laws and discriminating against service animals. So moral of the story BE CAREFUL
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes7y
...back to the original question.
I would make them leave the property. First, they discharged the weapon - accidentally or not - which means they don't know how to handle weapons safely and it could happen again. Second, they failed to report it and you only found out from the neighbor which tells me they aren't responsible with communication. Third, you've had other complaints about these tenants so this isn't the first problem.
Get rid of them. Better to err on the side of caution, I say.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7247 Reviews - Rental Property Investor · Houma, LA · Member since 2019 · 63 posts · 23 votes7y
@Jason C.
I personally would move to evict, accident or not. There are enough headaches with owning a property I don’t need to worry that a tenant may accidentally shoot the tenant next door.
Last month I evicted for a lease violate, the young lady was not late on her rent and the apartment seemed maintained but it was nonstop complaints of fighting, loud all hours, cars pulling in way to fast, and finally the police at her apartment. I woke up to find out she had the police there and they had a made an arrest that’s all I needed.
I also have a wavier if notice in lease so I can go directly to the city court to file no excessive notices. This is in Louisiana I’m not sure if your state has that or not but something to look at.
- Investor · Canton, GA · Member since 2014 · 728 posts · 500 votes7y
@Jason C.
Texas issues firearms at the border when you arrive, in case you left yours at home.
Second amendment case in Texas, even though it’s Austin... guess how that would turn out.
No charges were filed, so one can assume no laws were broken, move along IMHO.
Don’t go looking for additional stomach acid, because you’ll find it. Let it ride and just keep an ear to the ground.
- Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes7y
It would be easy to find out whether charges were filed , if they were not filed , then it would be an accidential discharge . I wouldnt evict if this were so . If the tenant has no record , pays on time , accidents happen . back in the late 1980's I had something similar happen a tenant lent out his pistol , he went to clean it and one was in the chamber . He shot thru a door and a picture window . He paid for both . i just told him to point it at the floor next time .
- Real Estate Agent · Houma, LA · Member since 2016 · 240 posts · 115 votes7y
Depending on what'sin your lease, if they are disturbing the neighbors, regardless of paying rent on time, AND they discharged a firearm inside the premises, accidental or not, I would proceed with the eviction. There is a liability issue where if one of your other tenants would have gotten hurt, you could possibly have been involved in a lawsuit.
- Property Manager · San Antonio Texas · Member since 2018 · 21 posts · 29 votes7y
....first time I have even threatened eviction on anything other than non-payment. (Always consult a lawyer) I would first start at....what is your definition of a good tenant? My definition of a good tenant is one that pays on time. A great tenant does not exist. Second if the discard was an accident and not his personal fire arm but a visitor...then I would let it slide after making a note in the file and having tenant sign that they understand that this is not something you or your owners want in there home. You can call the police department and ask if there has been any report filed. (you might want to call a couple of officers until you find the one willing to help) You can always try to find it in Austin Incident Database. I know all this takes time away from tasks that need your attention. But I found that you can turn a renter into a life long customer as a buyer or at least a lead source. Easier to give a slap on the hand then to evict, make ready and find a qualified tenant. hope this helps
- Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes7y
Pick which resident you want to loose...the shooter or the neighbor, because the neighbor will leave if nothing is done.
Originally posted by @Jason D.:
@Greg M. Liability can very easily be on the landlord. Dogs are legal too, but if a dog bites someone on your property, you, as the the landlord, can be held responsible.
Landlords can be held liable for dog bites, but not very easily. There are very limited circumstances where a landlord can be held liable for a tenants dog bite. The rare cases where the landlord is held liable usually includes some sort of negligence on the part of the landlord, like failing to properly maintain a gate and the dog got out.
The landlord would also need to believe that the dog was vicious (in CA I would have had to have actual knowledge about the dog being vicious, not just "should have known") and continued to allow it to live on the property. This liability can be mitigated by showing that the landlord took proper action against the tenant.
@Jason C.
I’m not saying your tenant is a liar however might be able to understand the gun incident more if there is a police report. I think it’s a good idea to go to the police department to get a copy of the police report of this incident. Since it resulted in a person being shot I believe police should had done a complete investigation in interviewing multiple witnesses, ballistic projectile travel, etc. This could help you determine how you deal with your tenant issue.
Originally posted by @Mark C.:
@Greg M. A crime being committed on the premise is grounds for immediate eviction. It does not have to be the tenant. If there was a police report of the incident, just reference that.
There are clauses in the lease and there is getting a court to enforce that clause. Very different.
In this instance no charges were filed. Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that the DA did not believe there was enough evidence that a crime occurred. It was an accident, not a crime. The tenant will reference this. Do you think that a court is going to look favorably on this landlord substituting his judgement for that of the DA and saying a crime occurred and a reasonable response to this is the removal of the tenant?
@Greg M. That would depend on the police report. The eviction part does not require a conviction just that a crime was reported and there was reasonable evidence of criminal activity. If the police arrived and everyone said it was an accidental, then you would have a problem with this eviction path, but if one person said it was intentional you would have grounds, even without a conviction.
- Developer · Houston TX · Member since 2018 · 423 posts · 400 votes7y
@Jason C.
Call police department and give address and see who you can speak with. If a ticket or charges have been filed they can give you that info. If you get further complaints while investigating this incident send certified letter about noise complaint and log this into your records.
Having paper trails helps.
I’ve seen the bigger landlords evict for such offenses in their large apartment complexes here in Houston.
- Real Estate Agent · Commerce CIty, CO · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 78 votes7y
It doesn't matter if your having second thoughts now. You already posted the eviction notice. As a business owner and a man, you have to keep your word, own your decisions and move forward with the eviction. If he's prone to accidental discharges it certainly does put his neighbor at risk. Moreover, loud parties alone are enough to evict someone.
- Saint Joseph, MO · Member since 2018 · 401 posts · 244 votes7y
@Jason C.
So, was this an accidental discharge, or a negligent discharge? Like was the gun in a safe and some freak accident caused it to go off and shoot someone? Or did some fool have his booger hook on the bang switch when he should have been following the gun safety rules? Regardless, I would get rid of him(evict) if you are legally able. He lied to you by omission. Pretty sure if someone got shot in my apartment I would mention it to my landlord. Just my opinion.
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