When to replace furnace.

When to replace furnace.

SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes

I have a single family rental in a low- to middle-income area. The furnace is about 22 years old and seems like it may be on it's last leg. When it turns on, it can take 2-3 tries for the burners to light - but it does always light and start, and then functions fine. Another quirk is the furnace won't light unless the front cover is put on upside down. I know that sounds odd but it's true. I previously lived in this house for about 3 years, it did this since I bought the house, but I never worried about it since it otherwise was fine.

I have the furnace serviced every year by various companies and each time the HVAC contractor has said it's safe and functions ok. But they can't explain the odd behavior, I had another that said he "thought" it was a problem that could be fixed for about $450, but would not guarantee that would fix the problem, or even if the part could be found nowadays anymore.

I'd not really want to put a lot of money into repairing an old unit. Still, would you replace it now (house is currently vacant) or just wait until it dies and then replace? I have been thinking it could last a year or another 10 years so just keep it as-is, but not sure if I am thinking about it correctly, like would the replacement bids cost me that much more if it goes out unexpectedly and they know I'm in a bind?

The other part of this is that return air ducts were never put in (it is a gas forced air furnace). The house is small and according to the local inspector, there is nothing against code in doing this - just makes it less efficient - but some HVAC contractors I called would not put a new one in without also adding the new return air ductwork, which obviously increases the cost quite a bit.

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Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
13y

Keep in mind that after May 1, you will not be able to put in an 80% furnace. New federal regulations will require a 90% or higher, which costs a lot more money. If you think that old furnace will break in the next couple years, you might want to replace it now.

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  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y

    The important thing is whether it's safe or not. The big risk with old furnaces is carbon monoxide leaks -- if your HVAC contractor is VERY confident that's not an issue, then the question becomes: Is it worth the short-term savings knowing that you'll likely get a call in the middle of the night one night from a tenant saying the furnace died?

    There's no right answer to that question. If you won't really mind the hassle of wrangling up an HVAC guy at a possibly inconvenient time, you may be able to get a few more years out of the unit. But, if you prefer to sleep well knowing that call isn't coming, it sounds like now is as good a time as any (with the unit empty). It may also be a decent selling point to get a new tenant in there.

    If you do keep the old unit, make sure you tell the new tenant about the "quirks" of the furnace, just to save you any unnecessary phone calls.

  • Investor · Union, NJ · Member since 2011 · 838 posts · 295 votes
    13y

    I agree with J Scott and also would suggest since youa re not under the gun to replace maybe get some quotes in the summer time off season and maybe you can get a good buy from a HVAC company who may be slower. Although summer time is their busy time if they handle central air as well.

    As another thought maybe put a Carbon monoxide detector close by to make sure the furnace stays safe as the older ones are the ones that will start producung carbon monoxide fumes in the house for various reasons.

    I have a Rheem furnace hot air in one of my rentals that is 24 yrs old and it runs like a clock and right next to it I have Carrier unit that is under 10 years old that is always having stupid annoyting problems.. go figure....

    Chris

  • SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
    13y

    J Scott, thanks so much for the reply. The property is in KY and I am in Washington State, so I have a property manager that would take the midnight call if needed, and they also have their own contractors that they use (they can get bids from other ones I request as well). I just didn't know if there was any other reason to replace ahead of time. I know another pm who says the first thing he does when he buys a new rental is replace the HVAC as a rule.

    Each year the companies have told me it's safe but say who knows how much longer it will last. I most recently had it serviced end of September last year.

    Good point too about letting the tenants know about the quirky furnace cover.

  • SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
    13y

    Chris Masons, thanks, I have a carbon monoxide/smoke detector on every level of the house. One HVAC guy told me it's OK to put it on the same floor as the furnace, but not right by it, because the way furnaces start it can falsely set it off when there is really no problem.

    Yeah it would be the high season now, good point, I will let my PM know anyway that I may be interested in replacing the furnace if they hear of any deals.

  • Realtor · Houston, TX · Member since 2011 · 916 posts · 296 votes
    13y

    Replace the furnance when it breaks.

  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Keep in mind that after May 1, you will not be able to put in an 80% furnace. New federal regulations will require a 90% or higher, which costs a lot more money. If you think that old furnace will break in the next couple years, you might want to replace it now.

  • SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
    13y

    Yeah, I saw that... the other thing is I might end up selling this one in a couple of years, I am not sure if the old furnace would be more a negative than a new one would be a positive, or how much of that $$ I would see back upon sale. It used to be that new furnaces didn't bring up the property value on a sale, now with the focus on energy efficiency, I'm not sure?

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    13y

    I'd have another HVAC person look at it. I have had that problem with my personal furnace which is in its 20's. The first year I was recommeded to replace the circuit board and did. It cost about 400 bucks. The next year it happened again and I called out a different company expecting that I might have it replaced. They cleaned a sensor and that fixed it for the price of a service call, 75 bucks.

  • SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
    13y

    I've had at least 3 or 4 service people look at it over the years. If my current PM has someone to recommend, perhaps I will go through their guy and see what he says.

  • Investor · Union, NJ · Member since 2011 · 838 posts · 295 votes
    13y

    Rob,

    This is a new Federal guideline? I had not heard about this before. SO after MAy first no 80% eff. furnaces are allowed to be sold???

    Chris

  • Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    13y

    I'd keep it until it breaks.

    I have a property with a brand new furnace from 2008. Guess what, I've already had to service it twice, to the tune of about $400. So, putting in a new one won't guarantee you don't have chilly tenants.

  • Investor · Appleton, WI · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 464 votes
    13y

    My take is that furnaces are cheap relatively speaking. If I had a furnace that was starting to give me problems I would just replace it right away, especially if it is 22 years old. It is prolly about 60% efficient on a good day and upgrading to a new 92% efficient furnace installed runs me under $2,500. I can then either save on my utility bills or raise the rent a touch higher and be able to boast a new energy efficient furnace.

    I switched an old old furnace to natural gas and it paid for itself in 18 months. I go with Goodman brand, have 3 with no problems ever. This is just my strategy and a different idea might work best for you. Good luck.

  • SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
    13y

    Thanks all. The bids I have gotten to replace the furnace were between $4000-6000 because as I said for whatever reason they won't install without the new return air ducting. The one in there now is an 80% efficient.

    I think I'm keeping it until it breaks because it could end up lasting a long time, and if I sell it soon I don't think it would bring up the resale (but it would pass inspection). The other thing is this is not a high rent area, so it would take a while to get paid back. My leasing agent told me I'm pretty much already at the high end of what the house would rent for, so charging more per month probably won't happen.

  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Chris Masons:
    Rob,

    This is a new Federal guideline? I had not heard about this before. SO after MAy first no 80% eff. furnaces are allowed to be sold???

    Chris

    I was wrong. Kentucky is not one of the states on thge map. Here is the link

    http://gilsonusa.com/sites/all/themes/gilson/pdf/ACCA-Northerners-ReplaceFurnace1.pdf

    Also, good news. It looks like the law will be changed. While looking for the first link, I found this story from last week:

    http://www.appliancemagazine.com/news.php?article=1644614

    Fortunately, it looks like common sense is not dead. While I disagree with the federal government telling any of us what to do, I thought this law was just a bad one from the beginning. The high efficiency furnaces cost more and produce water that needs to be dealt with. I have a 95.1% efficient furnace in my house. Yes, my gas bills are low. However, my electric bill did not go down like I was told that it would. The furnace also runs all the time. It also takes a long time to heat up the house if it is set lower. I found this out when I went to Florida and turned my heat down to 50. When I turned it back up, it took forever to get back to 70.

  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Amie D. Disregard what I said way earlier. Based on new information, I would keep that old furnace as long as it is safe. When it gets to the point where it needs an expensive repair, that would probably be the time to replace it. Sorry for the confusion.

  • SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
    13y

    Rob K, thanks for all the info, yeah I'm going to keep it. The other thing is the property is a single family home rental in which the tenants pay all utilities. So 80% efficient or 95% efficient, the rents I'd bring in monthly would be unchanged.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Amie D.:
    ... The bids I have gotten to replace the furnace were between $4000-6000 because as I said for whatever reason they won't install without the new return air ducting. The one in there now is an 80% efficient.

    ...

    How many stories / levels is this house? The more levels, the longer the return runs will get, and then you have to make their appearance look good in the living areas (like box them in with drywall).

  • SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
    13y

    House is very small, built into a hill, one floor plus basement, part of the basement has been finished, maybe 550 sq feet on the main floor and 200 or so sq feet (finished) on the lower floor.

    I realize it would run more efficiently with return air ducts but if there is nothing against code the way it is, why would I want to do that for a rental? When it was installed there were returns cut into the floor, the upstairs has an staircase open to the basement, so there is return airflow.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    13y

    Sounds too high then. Returns, for a single story building heat only (no central AC) with furnace in basement, just need to get to the flooring of the first floor, so not as much effort involved to doing that. So there would be a return "trunk" with ducts going to flooring of rooms other than bath and kitchen. Returns from finished basement area too.

  • David NilesBusiness Member
    Property Manager · DeLand FL · Member since 2012 · 860 posts · 243 votes
    13y

    I agree with Steve Babiak sounds awfully high for that small of a unit. While your not doing the install anyways, I would probably cross that hvac guy off my list for future use.

  • SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
    13y

    I actually got bids from a few. One was lower but tried to say other things were not right, which when I called the building inspector, what they pointed out was fine.

    I have remodeled 4 houses this one down to the studs, but have never replaced an HVAC unit myself. I now live across the country so would have to fly in to do it as well.

    A big problem has been that contractors see a petite younger woman and think I can't do anything and don't know anything, and try to take me for a ride. This has happened so many times that I normally DO end up doing it myself. Perhaps the new PM will have better luck since they have their own people they go through.

  • David NilesBusiness Member
    Property Manager · DeLand FL · Member since 2012 · 860 posts · 243 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Amie D.:
    Perhaps the new PM will have better luck since they have their own people they go through.

    Usually it will work that way because volume work nets some pretty good discounts. Our hvac guy does work for us at a fraction of the public price but we feed him work regularly.

  • SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes
    13y

    Yeah I am going to just keep it in there and if/when it dies get bids through my PM on the repair. There is one contractor I have had things done at a fair price so I'll have him bid it too, if/when the time comes.

  • Commercial Landlord · Oshkosh, WI · Member since 2013 · 299 posts · 88 votes
    13y

    I feel your pain here I just replaced a furnace in one of my units too. The gas bills where out of hand and I decided in the interest of tenant retention to replace the old dinosaur. I installed the furnace myself and ran brand new black pipe to the furnace and did a pressure test myself.
    Afterwards I called in a heating pro to run me a new flue and test the furnace out to make sure my handy work was up to code. I paid 700 for the furnace and another 100 in supplies like heat tape and ect, and another 800 for the flue and inspection.
    Before I started on the project I was quoted from a few heating companies 4600 and another company quoted me 5300 to do the job with furnace included.
    Then after I got the quotes I did some search online to see what furnaces cost and I arrived at between 650 and 1000 dollars. Thats when I decided a days worth of my labor was certainly worth 3000 dollars. I did put in about 8 hours on the project and paid a helper big ox of a man 60 cash to carry the furnace down in basement and set it for me before I did all the grunt work installing it. I did break for lunch. The hard part was matching up the supply plenum to the supply duct work on the furnace. I actually didnt have much work in any other part of the project. The thermostat wired up in less then 15 minutes since if you have preexisting wires it goes pretty easy. The gas line I ran 10 feet with 2 elbows that went out of the building through concrete block that already had old gas pipe going through it. The ease of going the same route made the gas line about 1.5 hours of the project including test line. The other issue was installing a switch since the old switch on old unit looked in really bad shape and aged.
    My goal was to cut heat by 1/3 between insulation, furnace and a couple newer windows and one new door installed. I have been attempting to go green in a few of my older buildings since I think even using conventional means should return me double digits in higher rents and retention. Doing the math brings me to the thought I made 300 an hour working on this project in my estimation.
    I rarely spend an 8 hour day on my buildings doing labor since you cant leverage yourself but once, but every so often money gets me off of my laptop or away from my orchard;)

  • Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes
    13y

    Hi Amie!

    Just curious... Is the furnace in a mechanical room, closed off from the rest of the house, with a return air phlenum simply ducted thru the wall pulling air from one central location? Im confused why heat techs would say they wont install new furnace without ducting the return, while an inspector says it meets code. Was it a private home inspector or a city inspector?

    As long as the furnace is in its own room, with a fire door and outside combustion air vent, and return air drawn from main house, It should be good to go and doesnt have to have return air ducted throughout house.

    One important thing I would recommend for all those with rentals is to place a sign at combustion air vent in mechanical rooms that instructs tenants to NOT close off or obstruct that vent. Not bad idea to have one saying not to put stuff on or in front of furnace either.

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