Scummy realtor behavior in hot market
Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes
Scummy realtor behavior in hot market
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Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votesAnd that's the problem with where our world has devolved to....A man's word used to be good. Now it's not and most people on the forum thinks that is fine. Sad.
119 Replies
We have had way more buyers back out than sellers. Many Buyers plan from the very beginning to renegotiate the deal after under contract which can be considered more scummy than want this realtor has done. Now this seller changed their mind within a few hours it appears. It is not uncommon for people to sleep on a deal and then wake up in the morning with a change of heart.
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Wilson Hunter:
I understand when people say that it's not legally a deal until it's in writing, but the point of my post is that it's underhanded and scummy behavior. It's also not someone "changing their mind" - it's lying to my face that we have agreed to a deal while collecting my personal information and terms for a contract while simultaneously listing it on the MLS.
There are different ways of being a “capitalist.” It’s entirely possible to make money and act honorably. You don’t have to be a stone cold liar to be successful.
I can see why you feel this way.. the most important word in real estate deals is NEXT.. you cant get hyper focused and disillusioned on one seller changing their mind or in your mind doing something intentional to ruin your day. This is normal business in this game
just try to negotiate with the wholesalers out there.. IE Hey send me 5k non refundable to even go into contract.. that kind of sillyness.
- Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes4y
Originally posted by @Joe S.:
We have had way more buyers back out than sellers. Many Buyers plan from the very beginning to renegotiate the deal after under contract which can be considered more scummy than want this realtor has done. Now this seller changed their mind within a few hours it appears. It is not uncommon for people to sleep on a deal and then wake up in the morning with a change of heart.
I'll say this one more time - if you actually read the story - the seller, who also happens to be a real estate agent, didn't change his mind. He was playing me, and I found out from a Zillow app alert that he simultaneously listed his property on the MLS as he was pretending to finalize a contract for me. Even in high stakes poker there are things that are borderline technically within the rules of the game but considered angle shoots, and there are some players who build reputations doing stuff like this. I got angle-shot, and the takeaway is that I learned from it so I can avoid situations like this in the future.
I don’t know if it’s helpful context, but I’m not some sort of direct mail off market shark. I simply contacted my neighboring Airbnb host, told him I love his cabins and to let me know if he ever wants to sell them, he said “actually yeah how about for $X,” and I simply agreed to the price because it sounded fair. He was supposedly working on a contract, and it seemed clear cut to me.
There are underhanded ways to do pretty much anything in real estate. For example, my understanding is that you could go get a database of recently divorced single women and go try to buy their houses for way under market while they are in emotional distress. Many people on these forums do stuff like that and brag about it as a “strategy.” When I read posts like that my jaw drops at the shamelessness. It’s shockingly scummy even if it’s legal. You could be a trailer park landlord and have cops evict grandma from her double wide on Christmas day while her grandkids are opening presents. People here do that sort of stuff. It’s legal but doesn’t make it honorable or respectable.
The number of you who would sell your soul for a buck is disappointing to say the least. Just be honest with people and don’t lie to their face as part of your “real estate strategy.”
- 4yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Once again you completely miss the point.
@Bruce Woodruff Seems to me that most of these posts are missing the point. No it isn’t a valid contract until it is written and fully executed. And yes a seller (agent or not) has a right to change his mind until such time as that has occurred.
But the seller didn’t have the common courtesy to notify the buyer that he had changed his mind on the agreement. And I believe the OP is suggesting that as a real estate professional he would have expected at least that from the seller in a real estate transaction.
- Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes4y
Originally posted by @Mark S.:
@Bruce Woodruff Seems to me that most of these posts are missing the point. No it isn’t a valid contract until it is written and fully executed. And yes a seller (agent or not) has a right to change his mind until such time as that has occurred.
But the seller didn’t have the common courtesy to notify the buyer that he had changed his mind on the agreement. And I believe the OP is suggesting that as a real estate professional he would have expected at least that from the seller in a real estate transaction.
Exactly. Had the guy called me up and said "I hate to say this but right before I decided to sign I realized that I could probably get a lot more if I list it on the MLS, so I can't complete this deal with you" then that's a totally different situation.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Once again you completely miss the point.
Seems more scummy to me that someone believes somone should have to sell their property to them for less than what its worth. There is a reason we have contracts in real estate. The op can as the seller told him ACTUALLY SUBMIT AN OFFER AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. He hasnt submitted an offer. He had a conversation. Its scummy to blame his own failure to close on someone else. Its scummy to believe he is entitled to buy a property for $50k less than the seller can sell it for to someone else. Why is the op so angry if he still has the chance to go ahead and submit the offer like the seller told him to do? Its because he knows someone is likely going to be paying more for the property than he is willing to. If someone wasnt, then there would be absolutely zero to be upset about, as he could then move ahead and buy it.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes4y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Once again you completely miss the point.
Seems more scummy to me that someone believes somone should have to sell their property to them for less than what its worth. There is a reason we have contracts in real estate.
Either your reading comprehension is poor or you like to intentionally strawman to justify some similar tactic you also use in your profession. Our deal wasn’t under market and it was exactly the price he offered me. He even asked for an appraisal buffer because he had bought it for 75% less 12 months ago.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Wilson Hunter:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Once again you completely miss the point.
Seems more scummy to me that someone believes somone should have to sell their property to them for less than what its worth. There is a reason we have contracts in real estate.
Either your reading comprehension is poor or you like to intentionally strawman to justify some similar tactic you also use in your profession. Our deal wasn’t under market and it was exactly the price he offered me. He even asked for an appraisal buffer because he had bought it for 75% less 12 months ago.
Real estate 101. Verbal means zero. A contract is a contract. Its amazing that people doing 50 deals a year under all seem to understand basic contract law, and the people who all complain about deals getting stolen or falling apart doing zero to a few deals a year dont seem to understand you need a contract.
You want the property? Make an offer the seller will take and get a contract in place. It is as simple as that.
You had the opportunity to seal the deal. You muffed it. It happens. But instead of trying to blame other people because you couldnt close the deal, maybe its time to take a look inward and say, what could I have done differently to get this deal closed, then apply that the next time you're negotiating. Check out the BP episode with Kevin Leahy on virtually the same topic. Kevin didnt go around calling the orher person scummy because he couldn't get the deal closed. He realized he didnt seize on the opportunity to get a contract in place asap....now he doesnt make that mistake. He learned from his mistakes.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - 4yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
I didn't come here today to argue, I got me better things to do.....
You can clearly see who believes what and how they handle their affairs.
If a man gives his word on a fair deal, that's it, regardless of whether it 'costs anything or not'.
That old tenet appears to have gotten lost somehow, but there are still enough that get it.
@Wilson Hunter Thanks for starting this thread, I, for one, am sorry you got treated like this by this scumbag, but there will be plenty of other deals as good or better then this one....and now you know how to approach the next one. More importantly, you know one more ahole that you will never deal with again. Make sure you spread the word on him (bearing in mind the defamation laws, of course :-) Good luck!
@Russell Brazil Wow!! This thread is amazing! I don’t believe the OP thinks the seller should’ve taken less than he could get for it. I think the OP just was asking for some common courtesy in this process. I for one don’t think that’s too much to ask but if others do well, I guess that’s up to them. And with that I am signing off this thread because this is going right down the drain.
- Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2020 · 210 posts · 302 votes4y
Thanks a ton, Bruce! Sounds like you and I have a similar perspectives.
I also have to run - going to do some fun activities with the family.
Russell, you’re right that there does seem to be some parallel between hyper-aggressive real estate brokers like yourself and a lower bar for ethics and expectations for communication. “Oh look, the people who expect a higher level of integrity and communication are the ones who haven’t done as many deals as me.” Hopefully you can reflect on that and realize how problematic it sounds.
Signing off! Thanks for the thread participation, everyone.
I would be angry also. I trust people and expect them to be a man or woman of his or her word.
As others have said, the seller didn't do anything illegal although it makes the seller look unprofessional, rude and a man who doesn't honor his word as he wasted your time. Give the realtor proper reviews on Zillow, Yelp, Google Reviews, etc. and you'll feel better, I promise.
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Wilson Hunter:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Once again you completely miss the point.
Seems more scummy to me that someone believes somone should have to sell their property to them for less than what its worth. There is a reason we have contracts in real estate.
Either your reading comprehension is poor or you like to intentionally strawman to justify some similar tactic you also use in your profession. Our deal wasn’t under market and it was exactly the price he offered me. He even asked for an appraisal buffer because he had bought it for 75% less 12 months ago.
Real estate 101. Verbal means zero. A contract is a contract. Its amazing that people doing 50 deals a year under all seem to understand basic contract law, and the people who all complain about deals getting stolen or falling apart doing zero to a few deals a year dont seem to understand you need a contract.
You want the property? Make an offer the seller will take and get a contract in place. It is as simple as that.
You had the opportunity to seal the deal. You muffed it. It happens. But instead of trying to blame other people because you couldnt close the deal, maybe its time to take a look inward and say, what could I have done differently to get this deal closed, then apply that the next time you're negotiating. Check out the BP episode with Kevin Leahy on virtually the same topic. Kevin didnt go around calling the orher person scummy because he couldn't get the deal closed. He realized he didnt seize on the opportunity to get a contract in place asap....now he doesnt make that mistake. He learned from his mistakes.
What episode number are you referring to?
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Joe S.:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Wilson Hunter:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Once again you completely miss the point.
Seems more scummy to me that someone believes somone should have to sell their property to them for less than what its worth. There is a reason we have contracts in real estate.
Either your reading comprehension is poor or you like to intentionally strawman to justify some similar tactic you also use in your profession. Our deal wasn’t under market and it was exactly the price he offered me. He even asked for an appraisal buffer because he had bought it for 75% less 12 months ago.
Real estate 101. Verbal means zero. A contract is a contract. Its amazing that people doing 50 deals a year under all seem to understand basic contract law, and the people who all complain about deals getting stolen or falling apart doing zero to a few deals a year dont seem to understand you need a contract.
You want the property? Make an offer the seller will take and get a contract in place. It is as simple as that.
You had the opportunity to seal the deal. You muffed it. It happens. But instead of trying to blame other people because you couldnt close the deal, maybe its time to take a look inward and say, what could I have done differently to get this deal closed, then apply that the next time you're negotiating. Check out the BP episode with Kevin Leahy on virtually the same topic. Kevin didnt go around calling the orher person scummy because he couldn't get the deal closed. He realized he didnt seize on the opportunity to get a contract in place asap....now he doesnt make that mistake. He learned from his mistakes.
What episode number are you referring to?
Episode 439
District Invest Group545 Reviews - 4yMichael BlumBusiness MemberNC · Member since 2018 · 55 posts · 49 votes
@Wilson Hunter - I believe you will get something soon. Listened to an awesome podcast by Brian Buffini and it talks all about the boomerang in life. So many people live life so short sighted. They make the decisions that will profit them (however they justify it) in the short term and forget all about the great justifier: TIME. What you give, you shall also receive. He will get what is coming to him and you will get what is coming to you. Honorable people with integrity are noticed and in a much better way then people who aren’t, especially if they cannot keep their word
- 4yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
@Michael Blum I always liked the saying "my karma just ran over your dogma"
- 4yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Wilson Hunter:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Once again you completely miss the point.
Seems more scummy to me that someone believes somone should have to sell their property to them for less than what its worth. There is a reason we have contracts in real estate.
Either your reading comprehension is poor or you like to intentionally strawman to justify some similar tactic you also use in your profession. Our deal wasn’t under market and it was exactly the price he offered me. He even asked for an appraisal buffer because he had bought it for 75% less 12 months ago.
Real estate 101. Verbal means zero. A contract is a contract. Its amazing that people doing 50 deals a year under all seem to understand basic contract law, and the people who all complain about deals getting stolen or falling apart doing zero to a few deals a year dont seem to understand you need a contract.
You want the property? Make an offer the seller will take and get a contract in place. It is as simple as that.
You had the opportunity to seal the deal. You muffed it. It happens. But instead of trying to blame other people because you couldnt close the deal, maybe its time to take a look inward and say, what could I have done differently to get this deal closed, then apply that the next time you're negotiating. Check out the BP episode with Kevin Leahy on virtually the same topic. Kevin didnt go around calling the orher person scummy because he couldn't get the deal closed. He realized he didnt seize on the opportunity to get a contract in place asap....now he doesnt make that mistake. He learned from his mistakes.
this is a good learning experince many of the folks I fund out in America when they go look at a house with a seller they have their contract with them and fill it in and sign it on the spot.. I was with one a few months ago in BALT city and went in on two presentations he made he came out with signed contracts both times.. this is how competitive it is on the market place especially with wholesalers those dudes know you need to ink the deal on the spot.
So I know agents these days dont carry contracts per se as they want to use MLS forms in docusign ( which I love personally) But nothing is stopping you from buying a standard contract at Office depot and bringing it with you next time.. you meet an off the market seller.
If he wont sign it after your verbal agreement and you filled it out then you know where you stand.
as for your word your bond I get that.. but agents with any experience know that buyers are liars sellers are liars.. I can only recall one out of literally thousand plus deals I have personally done where a buyer said his handshake was all that was needed and we went to closing with no contract and he closed.. the rest its all just talk. ( PS he was a very staunch Texan) Boy my Handshake is all you need put it there.
Flip side in my day in CA bay area there was a ton of Irainians who had fled once the sha of Iran got kicked out.. We would run into them all the time every one of them was the sha's cousin.. and they just spun wild tales I learned quickly with those folks I needed stuff in writing.
- Member since 2021 · 217 posts · 190 votes4y
"Hot Market" not even required for scummy Realtor behavior, all too often.
As an investor and a buyer, you need to realize very few of them are aligned with your interests, and all will tell you they are.
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Wilson Hunter:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Once again you completely miss the point.
Seems more scummy to me that someone believes somone should have to sell their property to them for less than what its worth. There is a reason we have contracts in real estate.
Either your reading comprehension is poor or you like to intentionally strawman to justify some similar tactic you also use in your profession. Our deal wasn’t under market and it was exactly the price he offered me. He even asked for an appraisal buffer because he had bought it for 75% less 12 months ago.
Real estate 101. Verbal means zero. A contract is a contract. Its amazing that people doing 50 deals a year under all seem to understand basic contract law, and the people who all complain about deals getting stolen or falling apart doing zero to a few deals a year dont seem to understand you need a contract.
You want the property? Make an offer the seller will take and get a contract in place. It is as simple as that.
You had the opportunity to seal the deal. You muffed it. It happens. But instead of trying to blame other people because you couldnt close the deal, maybe its time to take a look inward and say, what could I have done differently to get this deal closed, then apply that the next time you're negotiating. Check out the BP episode with Kevin Leahy on virtually the same topic. Kevin didnt go around calling the orher person scummy because he couldn't get the deal closed. He realized he didnt seize on the opportunity to get a contract in place asap....now he doesnt make that mistake. He learned from his mistakes.
this is a good learning experince many of the folks I fund out in America when they go look at a house with a seller they have their contract with them and fill it in and sign it on the spot.. I was with one a few months ago in BALT city and went in on two presentations he made he came out with signed contracts both times.. this is how competitive it is on the market place especially with wholesalers those dudes know you need to ink the deal on the spot.
So I know agents these days dont carry contracts per se as they want to use MLS forms in docusign ( which I love personally) But nothing is stopping you from buying a standard contract at Office depot and bringing it with you next time.. you meet an off the market seller.
If he wont sign it after your verbal agreement and you filled it out then you know where you stand.
as for your word your bond I get that.. but agents with any experience know that buyers are liars sellers are liars.. I can only recall one out of literally thousand plus deals I have personally done where a buyer said his handshake was all that was needed and we went to closing with no contract and he closed.. the rest its all just talk. ( PS he was a very staunch Texan) Boy my Handshake is all you need put it there.
Flip side in my day in CA bay area there was a ton of Irainians who had fled once the sha of Iran got kicked out.. We would run into them all the time every one of them was the sha's cousin.. and they just spun wild tales I learned quickly with those folks I needed stuff in writing.
This is one reason why I wish I lived in Texas.
- Rental Property Investor · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2016 · 262 posts · 205 votes4y
@Wilson Hunter that’s crummy. There’s no way I could treat people that way and still sleep at night. I guess maybe you can see it as a good thing this guy showed you his true colors before you got involved in a deal with him!
- 4yPeter MckernanBusiness MemberResidential Real Estate Agent · Irvine, CA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
@Wilson Hunter this sucks, sorry to hear it, and it happens a lot when you think you have a deal in hand (verbal) and then they cancel. In my experience in "these days" get it in writing or it's not a true deal/transaction, and know going forward that even when you have it in writing some people still change their mind. Even with a contract signed they have changed their mind, at least you have something to hold them accountable to at that point once it's signed.
Going forward knowing that make the best decisions possible on those experiences and get it in writing to have recourse.
The McKernan Group4.958 Reviews - Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2018 · 352 posts · 176 votes4y
@Wilson Hunter
If he was representing any client his job would be to effect the highest possible sales price, why should it not be the same for himself? I understand it’s kind of a jerk move but not reprehensible by any means. He might just not have looked at the comps recently, sometimes prices change drastically in just a few months.
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