real estate investing for high income earner?

real estate investing for high income earner?

Melbourne, FL · Member since 2015 · 10 posts · 4 votes

hello all.  first post here.  I am interested in getting into the real estate investing world and have a few introductory questions.  Unlike many of you, I have no interest in doing this full time (at least not until I'm retired); however, I think real estate investing could be a fun, challenging, and more fulfilling way to make money than the stock market.  My day job pays well and I typically find myself in the 33% bracket.  

1.  what are the tax considerations for a relatively high incoming earning real estate investor?  It appears that rental incomes and/or proceeds from a flip would be taxed as ordinary income.  By contrast, stock market returns, if held for a year, yield a much lower LTCG rate of 15%.  What am I missing here (obviously I'm not an accountant!)

2.  I am debt adverse.  Much of what I read here and in several books I've picked up on the subject indicates that the way to make real money is to gain leverage by borrowing money from banks.  I just spent years paying off student loans.  Another mortgage is not really what I want.  I already have a mortgage and take the mortgage interest tax deduction with it (don't think I can do that twice?).  I was thinking of investing the cash I would otherwise put into stocks/bonds into a rental property or rehab/flip.  I'm not counting on monthly cash flows from this to pay my bills or feed my family.  

3. Many investors seem to focus on SFH in the $50-150k range. I imagine there is a lot of competition in that price range from all of you more savvy investors =). Does anyone out there go for a more "high end" rental?

4. If I decide to rehab/flip, I would do this as a team with my brother in law. what have folks done as far as structuring the business? ie, LLC, partnership, me as sole proprietor and him as employee? maybe too complex a question...

5. why should I go thru all the trouble of researching and purchasing properties when i can sit on my butt and purchase shares of a REIT?

Lots of questions; thanks in advance for your responses!

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Ned CareyPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
11y

@Brendan Prendergast  real estate investing is a big benefit to high net worth / high income earners. 

  • You get depreciation which can reduce your taxes (subject to limitations)
  • Rental Income is Not taxed as regular income as stated above. It is passive income which is not subject to social security/ self employment tax.
  • Capital gains can be deferred through 1031 exchanges as mentioned.
  • If you have substantial retirement funds you can invest tax free.

The above benefits are for buy and hold rentals not rehab and flip. There are no real tax benefits for Rehab and flip. Rentals do not have to be Single Family Homes, they can be apartment buildings or other commercial properties like shopping centers or office buildings.

Borrowing for personal items is bad. Borrowing for investing increases your risk but also increases your return. If you can borrow at 4% and invest that money at 8%, doesn't it make sense to borrow?

You can reduce your risk by reducing your loan to value ratio. If you borrow 80% loan to value (LTV) you have modest risk on a good deal. But if you only borrow 50% LTV that is a pretty safe situation. A Measure of risk in called "Debt Coverage Ratio". The higher the number the more income (profit) you have to cover the debt. Banks will lend at about a 1.25 DCR but if you only borrow at a 1.6-2.0 DCR you risk is minimal, but you have increased you return on your investment.

Rehab and flip is an active business that provide chunks of cash. Rental properties provide cash flow and wealth accumulation over time.

One thing to consider is being a lender on real estate. You can invest relatively safely with significantly better returns than most fixed income investments. Hard money lenders can earn 15% or more on their money.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Rental Property Investor · Central U. S. A. · Member since 2013 · 296 posts · 149 votes
    11y

    @Brendan Prendergast 

    The answers are in the following book:

    WHAT EVERY REAL ESTATE INVESTOR NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT CASH FLOW And 36 Other Key Financial Measures by FRANK GALLINELLI

  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 570 posts · 521 votes
    11y
    Just a couple of comments --

    Originally posted by @Brendan Prendergast:

    1.  what are the tax considerations for a relatively high incoming earning real estate investor?  It appears that rental incomes and/or proceeds from a flip would be taxed as ordinary income.  By contrast, stock market returns, if held for a year, yield a much lower LTCG rate of 15%.  What am I missing here (obviously I'm not an accountant!)

    Obama put an end to LTCG of 15%, it's now tiered to your income, which can put it at 20% plus the smaller tier of 3.8% , for 23.8%. Plus your state likely wants it's piece which puts it closer to 30%

    2.  I am debt adverse.  Much of what I read here and in several books I've picked up on the subject indicates that the way to make real money is to gain leverage by borrowing money from banks.  I just spent years paying off student loans.  Another mortgage is not really what I want.  I already have a mortgage and take the mortgage interest tax deduction with it (don't think I can do that twice?).  I was thinking of investing the cash I would otherwise put into stocks/bonds into a rental property or rehab/flip.  I'm not counting on monthly cash flows from this to pay my bills or feed my family.  

    A HELOC on your residence would extend the tax deductibility of the interest as it is a 1st or 2nd mortgage on your residence.

    3. Many investors seem to focus on SFH in the $50-150k range. I imagine there is a lot of competition in that price range from all of you more savvy investors =). Does anyone out there go for a more "high end" rental?

    With high income and I'm assuming high cash to invest I'd stay clear of low priced properties and invest in quality properties in excellent neighborhoods and focus on appreciation as well as rental income.

    4. If I decide to rehab/flip, I would do this as a team with my brother in law. what have folks done as far as structuring the business? ie, LLC, partnership, me as sole proprietor and him as employee? maybe too complex a question...

    I'd be wary of any partnership, I'd run as fast as possible in the other direction of a partnership with a family member.

    5. why should I go thru all the trouble of researching and purchasing properties when i can sit on my butt and purchase shares of a REIT?

    Exactly.

  • Investor/RE Broker · Eugene, OR · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 968 votes
    11y

    @Brendan Prendergast 

    Hi and welcome to BP! I am not a tax accountant either, but here is my understanding.

    1) you are right rental income is taxed as regular income; however that is after being able to deduct expenses such as mortgage interest, repairs, and (here is the big advantage) depreciation of the improvements to property (27 year amortization) - ie: the building.  Often these deductions can bring your net income from rental down to a very minimal amount, even zero.

    When you sell the property, after owning for at least a year, you are taxed at the capital gains rate, not as regular income; and even this amount can be totally voided through a 1031 exchange - way to involved.  

    As the equity appreciates you can actually borrow against it, spend the borrowed (maybe to use for another purchase), and not be taxed on those borrowed funds (only when you sell the property).

    2. You don't have to borrow to make money, although it can certainly make it go further and grow wealth faster.  Many investors do all cash deals on buy and holds.  You should also consider hard money lending to rehab/flippers, where you can get a top interest rate secured by property.  Note the interest is taxed just like regular income.

    3. The 50-150k range property range is huge, and there are so many properties available in that range in the right areas that you really don't have to worry about competing.  If you want to go higher though, start looking at small multis (2-4 units) or even commercial residential (5+ units).

    4. I have no experience to answer this question with

    5. You can buy properties that are totally turnkey, let someone else do all the research, from locating, purchasing, to rehabs, to placing tenants. You just have to research the area you are investing in, and the company you are doing business with - and spend little time after closing. A little more than a REIT requires, but a lot more fun, and you are in much more control of the risks and rewards.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    @Mike F. Interest for an investment property is deductible against rental income without restriction, period.  

  • Bill ExeterBusiness Member
    1031 Exchange Qualified Intermediary · San Diego, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Brendan Prendergast 

    You will not incur any capital gain, depreciation recapture or Medicare Surcharge (Obamacare tax) upon sale of the investment properties as long as you 1031 Exchange into other investment properties.  The 1031 Exchange allows you to continually defer these taxes into the future, and they will completely go away if you never sell and your heirs end up inheriting the properties.

    Exeter 1031 Exchange Services, LLC and Exeter Trust Company4.726 Reviews
  • Brandon TurnerPro Member
    Investor · Maui, HI · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    Hey @Brendan Prendergast welcome to the site! Definitely start jumping into the community here! Be sure to read through The Ultimate Beginner's Guide to Real Estate Investing to help you get started.

    Also -be sure to setup some keyword alerts - especially for "Melbourne" so you can jump into local conversations.

    See you around the forums!

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    11y

    I have buy and hold rentals with depreciation deductions coming out my ears. Where were they when I had a normal w-2 career?   Can't think of a better vehicle for tax advantages than holding rentals!  

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    @Brendan Prendergast  real estate investing is a big benefit to high net worth / high income earners. 

    • You get depreciation which can reduce your taxes (subject to limitations)
    • Rental Income is Not taxed as regular income as stated above. It is passive income which is not subject to social security/ self employment tax.
    • Capital gains can be deferred through 1031 exchanges as mentioned.
    • If you have substantial retirement funds you can invest tax free.

    The above benefits are for buy and hold rentals not rehab and flip. There are no real tax benefits for Rehab and flip. Rentals do not have to be Single Family Homes, they can be apartment buildings or other commercial properties like shopping centers or office buildings.

    Borrowing for personal items is bad. Borrowing for investing increases your risk but also increases your return. If you can borrow at 4% and invest that money at 8%, doesn't it make sense to borrow?

    You can reduce your risk by reducing your loan to value ratio. If you borrow 80% loan to value (LTV) you have modest risk on a good deal. But if you only borrow 50% LTV that is a pretty safe situation. A Measure of risk in called "Debt Coverage Ratio". The higher the number the more income (profit) you have to cover the debt. Banks will lend at about a 1.25 DCR but if you only borrow at a 1.6-2.0 DCR you risk is minimal, but you have increased you return on your investment.

    Rehab and flip is an active business that provide chunks of cash. Rental properties provide cash flow and wealth accumulation over time.

    One thing to consider is being a lender on real estate. You can invest relatively safely with significantly better returns than most fixed income investments. Hard money lenders can earn 15% or more on their money.

  • Dave VisayaPro Member
    Moderator
    Audio Engineer and Investor · Cebu City, Cebu · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 881 votes
    11y

    Hey @Brendan Prendergast welcome to the site! 

    BiggerPockets
  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1 post · 0 votes
    11y

    Hello and welcome to BP, 

    A great resource for answering your concerns as a new real estate investor would be online websites, there are a lot of resources that could help you out a lot.
    If i were you, the #1 priority for me would be to get to know the terminology in the business, you must learn the lingo before you get any deeper otherwise you would be completely lost and without direction. Try to check out listing websites, or websites that have specific information about real estate investing, such as cap rate, Cash-on-Cash ...etc. 

    Good luck with your journey.

  • Developer · Grand Haven, MI · Member since 2015 · 37 posts · 6 votes
    11y

    You will not be allowed depreciation deductions at all if you make over 150k. Which you stated you do. Unless your primary job is real estate related.

  • Specialist · Sibley, LA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 190 votes
    11y

    @Brendan Prendergast Nice to see you joined BiggerPockets.

     Wish I was in Florida right about now for that great weather bro.

    More useful content below to get you started off on the right track.

    Homeless Guy Finds 8,300 Buyers and Sellers in 10 Minutes by Doing the Research

    Here is another good place to start by reading some top blog posts here on BP

    http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/author/antoniocoleman/

  • Investor · Melbourne, FL · Member since 2014 · 32 posts · 19 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Daniel Dexter:

    You will not be allowed depreciation deductions at all if you make over 150k. Which you stated you do. Unless your primary job is real estate related.

     I think you meant to say you will not be able deduct "losses" against other types of income in a year you make over 150k.  You will however be able to carry forward the "loss" until you either sell the property or earn less than 150k in a year (it's a gradual transition from 100k to 150k for the amount of rental loss you can claim against other income).

    So if you buy cash and are cashflowing like mad, there's a good chance your depreciation and expenses could still be deducted from the rental income and you still have cashflow earnings left over.  If your depreciation + expenses is greater than the rental income, the excess "loss" will have to be carried forward until sale or your MAGI (i think it's magi) is below 150k.

    Seems like IRS doesn't want high income earners to be able to lower their high bracket taxes by buying up a bunch of real estate to reduce their other taxable income unless it has to do with that actual investment.

    Not a tax professional :)

  • Herndon, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 324 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Bob R.:
    Originally posted by @Daniel Dexter:

    You will not be allowed depreciation deductions at all if you make over 150k. Which you stated you do. Unless your primary job is real estate related.

     I think you meant to say you will not be able deduct "losses" against other types of income in a year you make over 150k.  You will however be able to carry forward the "loss" until you either sell the property or earn less than 150k in a year (it's a gradual transition from 100k to 150k for the amount of rental loss you can claim against other income).

    So if you buy cash and are cashflowing like mad, there's a good chance your depreciation and expenses could still be deducted from the rental income and you still have cashflow earnings left over.  If your depreciation + expenses is greater than the rental income, the excess "loss" will have to be carried forward until sale or your MAGI (i think it's magi) is below 150k.

    One criteria for investment properties in your situation should be that they will cash flow in excess of depreciation.  You will have to pay income tax rates on the amount beyond that.  I would start out with a cash investment and then add leverage as you can be confident the income will come out ahead of the depreciation and other expenses - so that you have tax deferred income, but have a net passive income gain.

  • Melbourne, FL · Member since 2015 · 10 posts · 4 votes
    11y

    wow!  where to start, thank you all for the kind and detailed replies.

    so it sounds like I need to do a bit more reading ;)

    I think the buy and hold strategy is more up my alley...sound like it will take a little more tax planning but the tax savings are there if you take the long run and consider depreciation and 1031 exchange.

  • Melbourne, FL · Member since 2015 · 10 posts · 4 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Bill Exeter:

    @Brendan Prendergast 

    You will not incur any capital gain, depreciation recapture or Medicare Surcharge (Obamacare tax) upon sale of the investment properties as long as you 1031 Exchange into other investment properties.  The 1031 Exchange allows you to continually defer these taxes into the future, and they will completely go away if you never sell and your heirs end up inheriting the properties.

    I assume the goal would be to, for instance, purchase a property and hold for years until significant appreciation occurs making selling more attractive, then 1031 exchange the capital gains into a new more expensive rental property (or several!)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Brendan Prendergast 

      couple of things you might consider if your accredited and debt adverse.

    1. find a good HML in your area and make loans you can make 10 to 12% pretty consistently and safely if your hooked up with the premier broker in your community.

    2. some crowd funding deals could be a good fit.

    3. search for private syndicators... Of course these deals are only as good as the sponsor only invest with BLUE RIBBON TOP SHELF Sponsors. Some deals you will need to be accredited others you will not.

    continuing doing what your doing with investing in the stock market and Reits... Rental investing is a whole nother level of commitment to time and Risk.. ONe needs to understand that.. You can buy a good one that will be trouble free and you can get unlucky and get one that has issues ... depends on how involved you want to get.

    For me personally I see no reason to go into debt if your debt adverse... Life is not all about tax write offs and leverage...

  • Melbourne, FL · Member since 2015 · 10 posts · 4 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    I have buy and hold rentals with depreciation deductions coming out my ears. Where were they when I had a normal w-2 career?   Can't think of a better vehicle for tax advantages than holding rentals!  

    Can you briefly explain how depreciation deductions work?  Especially if I plan to buy a rental property in a place that I expect to appreciate in value over time?  I must be missing something...

  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 570 posts · 521 votes
    11y

    I assume the goal would be to, for instance, purchase a property and hold for years until significant appreciation occurs making selling more attractive, then 1031 exchange the capital gains into a new more expensive rental property (or several!)

    Maybe, maybe not. The 1031 is a method to shuffle properties without paying capital gains. If you have no need to shuffle properties, you have no need to use a 1031.

    If somebody wants to get rid of a property due to circumstances such as the neighborhood goes bad, or the property is not a good rental, or they want to move from a single family property to a multi-family or for whatever reason, but they will buy another property than the 1031 is a method to do so without paying capital gains. 

    If there comes a time you want to cash out of a property without reinvesting the cash into another you're going to pay the capital gains. That issue is determined by you personally.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Mike F. 

      tax's on a 1031 are deferred  but still owed at some point unless estate planning comes into play.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    11y

    Sure @Brendan Prendergast .  I'm not a CPA, but with rental property you can 'depreciate' the rental property over 27.5 years.  The building only.  Say for instance you buy a rental property for $300,000.  County records show the land value is $25,000.  You will depreciate $10,000 per year for 27.5 years.  The $10,000 is not affected by the rising fair market value of the property at all.  You deduct $10k against normal income for tax purposes.  There are probably other variations on the depreciation method, but the easiest way I have found is dividing the improved value by 27.5.  When you sell, you 're-capture' the depreciation amounts you have taken over the years, reducing your cost-basis for tax purposes.  By then you can 1031 exchange or it will be a long-term cap gain.  Hope that helps!  

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    Being able to use the depreciation deduction, with a cash purchase should certainly be a non issue. Depreciation is about 3% a year. Depreciation can Always be used to off set the rental income. If the property doesn't have at least a 3% NOI, it's a really lousy investment.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    11y

    I reviewed a previous post and saw there may be an AGI limit of $150k to be able to depreciate.  I didn't know that.  Better talk to a tax person, which I am not.  I would run a what-if analyses if I was close to that threshold.  Depreciation reduces your AGI.  The $40k+ I depreciate annually reduces my AGI below the $150k.  If you are close, it may be just what you need!

  • Bill ExeterBusiness Member
    1031 Exchange Qualified Intermediary · San Diego, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Mike F. 

    Mike is right on the money.  The 1031 Exchange allows you to sell property when you need to reposition, diversify, trade up, etc., with out incurring capital gain, depreciation recapture and/or Medicare Surcharge (Obamacare) taxes.  The 1031 Exchange should allow you to put yourself into a better position after the transaction is completed, otherwise you should not be doing a 1031 Exchange. 

    As they say, don't let the tail wag the dog.  The transaction has to make good business/economic sense first, and if you can also structure a 1031 Exchange then all the better. 

    Exeter 1031 Exchange Services, LLC and Exeter Trust Company4.726 Reviews
  • Bill ExeterBusiness Member
    1031 Exchange Qualified Intermediary · San Diego, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    I reviewed a previous post and saw there may be an AGI limit of $150k to be able to depreciate.  I didn't know that.  Better talk to a tax person, which I am not.  I would run a what-if analyses if I was close to that threshold.  Depreciation reduces your AGI.  The $40k+ I depreciate annually reduces my AGI below the $150k.  If you are close, it may be just what you need!

    The $150K AGI limit refers to your ability to deduct the depreciation on your taxes and take advantage of the tax shelter provided by the depreciation.  You must still depreciate the property even if your AGI is too high.  You might not be able to take advantage of the benefits currently, but you will be taxed on depreciation recapture when you sell (and cash out) if you do not 1031 Exchange in the future.

    Exeter 1031 Exchange Services, LLC and Exeter Trust Company4.726 Reviews
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