Health Care Reform Yes or No?
Real Estate Investor · brighton, MI · Member since 2009 · 56 posts · 12 votes
Should we refom health care? Do we leave thing the way they are? Do we pay $800 co-pay per month and then bail out banks? Are we listening to our president or do we disagree just to disagree? Please share how you feel.
"...When there was a fire, all private insurance companies would send their fire crews to see if it was their customer and those that were other companies fire crews would have to get out of the way of the company who was the fire crew for that customer..."
Well, thanks for the history lesson. Actually, in some towns if you hadn't paid a seperate "fire tax" they wouldn't show up at all. In any event, you can continue to hold on to your ideological trappings while the system burns (sorry, couldn't help myself) or, you can join the rest of the civilized world in the 21st century in acknowledging that government involvment is REQUIRED in making health care benefits available to most of us. The notion that you can leave the care of the sick in the hands of for profit health care insurance companies is just, well, nuts. It's a bit like the Medieval notion that the world was flat. You can say it, you can believe it, you can pray that it is so, but the Earth will still NOT be flat.
I confess, I like most services I get from my government. They're not perfect, but who is? I took a shower this morning and made my coffee with water treated by the government and piped to my front door. I didn't worry about drinking it either. I flushed the toilet and they are processing that, as we work. Here in Chicago where I live, if I get sick the city will send an ambulance and EMT's to take me to the hospital (and they have). If the house is on fire, they'll send firefighters. If one of our local freaks tries to break in, the police will come and not inquire as to my home owner's insurance. At the federal level, our soldiers, sailors and Marines are protecting me and, I think, do a pretty good job for a bunch of federal employees. I know most conservatives might think they'd be better off with a .45 and a posse, but I like the military.
So, do nothing, hold on to your values. It won't belong before the system totally implodes. Then the politicians of both parties can all look around and wonder what happened. Naturally, one will blame the other, but there'll be plenty of blame to go around. In the meantime, they'll continue to enjoy tax payer funded government health care. Why America is afraid of tackling this issue is both sad and disconcerting. But, in the near term this will all come home to roost.
Not only on the person, but what they had to do. Even though he healed them he always said something like "get up and walk". What do you think would have happened if they choose not to get up? Would they have been healed by choosing to continue laying there? Probably, but what good did it do to heal them when they WONT take advantage of being healed?
So, those who are working hard (even if they aren't earning much) deserve to be healed as long as they continue to work hard and continue to try to provide for themselves and their families.
And those who are too infirm to work, as long as they contribute to the community to the best of their ability (whatever that means depending on their disability), they deserve to be healed as well.
As for the too young to contribute (the children), I hope we all agree that Jesus would help them, regardless of their situation, right?
Do we agree on all that?
Jawsette --
I'm not sure how to make an analogy between back then and now, so I'm not going to try.
Instead, how about a practical example...
Let's say that a woman was working 10 hours a day at McDonalds (because she was put to work at a young age and had no other marketable skills), and was making minimum wage to support her two kids, so that they could focus on their studies and still have food in their stomachs to hopefully one day be able to go to college and get well-paying jobs.
One day, she notices a lump in her breast, and goes to a nearby clinic to get checked out. The doctor at the clinic determines that she might have breast cancer, and tells her that she needs to have a biopsy right away and needs to consult with a specialist.
The woman has no health insurance, the clinic can't help her any further, and the emergency rooms turn her away because they claim it's not an emergency.
That same day, Jesus comes down to Earth, and sees this woman.
Does he help her? Are there conditions on his helping her (and if so, what are they)? Does he expect repayment for his help (and if so, what repayment)?
I thought I remember Jesus having a ministry where he feeds the hungry and heals the sick without regard for their merit or circumstance. In fact, I thought God's own goodness was characterized by the fact that he provided without regard to merit.
Again, not my area of expertise, just what some of my religious friends have told me. In fact, as I heard one minister say on the topic of health care, "Jesus would heal first and ask questions later..."
First of all she made several choices. She chose to not educate herself any further than the work that she was doing from that early age. She choose not to have those marketable skills by not educating herself while not at work.
Then she chose to sex which could and did produce children on an imcome that could not possibly provide for those children. I also noticed that the father is not in your story. If he were then there would possible be more income involved and someone who could take care of her and the children.
This is where the family unit comes in. Where is her mother, father, brothers, sisters. The breakdown of the family structure is part of why there are sooooo many people in the position of what many consider a position of not being able to help themselves when problems come about.
It all came about because of previous decisions that were made. These previous decisions removed the "safety nets" that should be there making them rely upon the last thing available, the government. And as we have seen in major disasters the government can not even provide the basics (see Katrina) let alone any thing that those safety nets would normally provide.
Jesus returning to the earth today is just not going to happen according to the scriptures, so we can only use examples of what was back then to show what he would do, and that I did. You can accept it or reject it, as you wish. But he only helped those who were willing to accept his help. If they rejected him they did not recieve his help.
The analogy between back then and now is the breakdown of the family unit!
The family unit is what taught their children personal responsibility. Each choice has its consequences and only you are responsible for those.
Personal responsibility starts with yourself, then extends to the family, then to the family unit, then to the society. If you can not help with the beginning (yourself) you certainly can not help with the extended responsibility (society).
Those that can help should help, but again it is a choice and can not be forced upon anyone. Whenever this is attempted they will choose not to be in the position to be able to help, so where will the help come from?
Jawsette hit the nail right on the head! His analysis is quite profound and exactly right. The loss of faith and a sense of right and wrong has caused our current problems. Shacking up; having children out of wedlock; and the entitlement mentality is destroying the family and the country.
The bottom line is that people do NOT have a right to healthcare or anything else for free. Extended family and charity have always taken care of the poor, even 2,000 years ago. STEALING from a productive person to pay for the MILLIONS of lazy people is WRONG and IMMORAL! We should immediately put a stop to it!
Mike
Not being judgmental from a religious standpoint has absolutely nothing to do with making judgments. I make judgments every day. I judge which applicant might make a good tenant and which one is a scumbag. I judge whether people are telling the truth or lying. I judge whether a person is behaving or needs to have their lease terminated. I am not judging their soul - that is God's job. I am doing my job and judging their actions and responding to them accordingly.
Mike
Oh great. This became a theological argument now. Tim suggested in a another thread, to send all those in favor of universal health care to the blue counties. I have a better idea. Universal health care to those who believe in Jesus and repent their sins!!! How about that one?
This country seriously becoming "religulous"...
Quite the contrary, I think the bible is quite clear. You'll note that I agreed with J Scott - the bible does encourage charity to the helpless and needy. The bible also does not condone laziness, which is our big problem today - MILLIONS of lazy deadbeats!!!
Or is this just your interpretation of how Jesus would act towards lazy people?
Health Care Reform Yes or No?
Yes, no doubt about it.
P.S. You hit one of three topics I was raised in. My dad had a master's degree in music, was a missionary to Europe, and is a real estate investor. It was different growing up learning to play 6 instruments, writing music, reading the King James translation of the Bible, speaking French, and learning how to start and operate a business at the same time. Probably why I've never been able to have 1 "job" at a time....
Not a single teaching Christ has contradicts principles in the Old Testament. I was merely giving an example from Judaism for Eddie's sake since Judaism and Christianity share this principle and I felt a discussion of Christianity alone may make him feel excluded.
I did read it. And the takeaway I got was exactly what *I* was arguing for...
The takeaway I got was that it didn't matter what your profession (tax collector, prostitute, etc), what your status in life, or how many bad decisions you have made in the past, as long you as you attempt to live a good life and do what you think is right, you are worthy of being helped.
The other takeaway is that appearances don't matter. You can appear to be a great person on the outside and say all the right things, but if your motivations aren't pure, you are unworthy of anything.
Is that a correct interpretation?
In my post earlier, I gave the example of the woman who made some bad decisions in her life (as Jawsette pointed out), but who was working her butt off to take care of her children and provide for them so that they could grow up to be better than she was.
I claimed that this woman deserved charity, because she was making every effort to do the right thing and improve her life, regardless of her previous circumstances and previous bad decisions that led her to where she was (just the previous bad decisions of the prostitutes in the parable).
Jawsette said that the woman in the example was unworthy of charity because she had made bad decisions in her life, and was getting what she deserved, regardless of her current intentions.
So, Tim, would you say that the story you pointed out above more supports my take or more support Jawsette's take?
(Btw, thanks for helping me out on this one...I didn't know about that story, but it certainly was what I was looking for)
Wow I would like to thank everyone for their view. I wish that we all call talk about this issue without shouting over each other.(thanks "bigger pockets") Some would like to reach out and help, and some are not concerned about any one but themselves. Either way you can at least hear their veiw. I am going to stick to what I learned in church, to help no questions asked. I think health care reform is a good idea. The time is now!!!
I glad to hear that's what they still teach in some churches!