Heading toward Disaster with this Flip, HELP!

Heading toward Disaster with this Flip, HELP!

Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 7 votes

Help BiggerPockets!  

I am in desperate need of some help and advice  to steer me in the right direction.  I jumped out there  and bought a house that was supposed to be a rental property but when we looked at the area, my husband and I felt to  get us some Capital to get started with the rest of our real estate ventures, which is to buy and hold. This isour first property  and I'm feeling that it's heading towards disaster and all the people that I've been speaking with are not helping  partly because their family members .  Mistake number 1!  

So here's the scenario...(this is going to be long)

 In October,  we we're looking for our first rental property to buy  in Baltimore Maryland.  We met a wholesaler who had a couple of houses that were right in the price range that we were looking for and since this was my first  buy, we had read all the books,  read a bunch on the website, listened to podcasts, I felt we were ready. So, we went to our bank and got a personal loan at nearly 11%  for $35,000 .  We were looking for a house that would be about $20,000 that would need about $10-12K in rehab costs and then rent it.  We came upon this house and got it at $24k on Patterson Park Avenue and Monument in Baltimore City. This house is 5 blocks down from Johns Hopkins Hospital  which they are buying up blocks and blocks all around  the hospital  and they're gentrifying the neighborhood. It's one of the hottest neighborhoods  that is upcoming in Baltimore right now. Even though they haven't really started doing the major renovations yet but everyone knows that something big is coming because they're buying up blocks at a time.  And the city is all behind it and have really started  making the community  beautified, planting trees and fixing the roads. To the right of me, next door, that house just went up for sale for  $35,000  and it is a complete gut job . To the left, next door, is for sale a turnkey rental for $65000.  Next to that house  is a group  of 4 townhouses  that are for pre-sale  at $250,000, by a developer in New York .  They are going high end.  One block down, in the  800 block, reno homes are  for sale  for $200k. On the 900 block, the same. These are fully rehabbed upscale high end homes. 

My intention was to do a mid-grade rehab (because we didn't have a lot of money), have my brother (who's been doing carpentry and rehab work for other investors' rentals) would do the work and my husband would help......well, we got ourselves into a little mess. Basically, the money was getting spent but the work wasn't moving as I had anticipated. We ran out of money. 

I felt that my brother was cutting corners in the work and basically band-aiding problems and not really correcting them in order to stay on our very modest and tight budget. Since we decided to go with a flip instead of renting it, the rehab changed...but our budget didn't. I quickly learned that we needed more money to do the rehab. We halted the rehab so that Thanksgiving wouldn't be weird. I was getting frustrated and my brother felt like I was micromanaging. We never did a scope of work. He didn't know what that was and it was difficult for me to tell him what to do and my mother who is realtor and has her own rental property that my brother manages, was on his side. The outcome was that I was the newbie and needed to let him do what he does. But he was all over the place. Many jobs got started but nothing was considered "done." At thanksgiving I stopped all work and now my brother has no work for the christmas holiday and it seems like its my fault because this was suppose to support him through January. I felt we had no way to determine if we were on time, on budget, or how we were progressing. 

This isn't important but since I'm venting, why not tell it all. We got into investing to help my brother. Really this is his dream. We wanted to help him get a two-unit house, move out of where he was staying and then he'd have rental income to help get himself on the road to his own properties...so we said if we did a flip, we'd pay him 25% of profits. We were hoping that even if we jumped in and out quickly, we could still make like $80K with the numbers we had. But everything changed with him. We needed to pay him every week, $500, and then he needed helpers, and the money was just going very quickly now and I couldn't see anything get DONE, started but not done. My husband complained, why now should my brother get the 25% if we are paying him now, and paying him a fare wage? What was his risk? His contribution to garner the profits? I was torn between my husband and my family and I, of course, sided with my husband. He was, after all, working to fund this whole operation....and he works outside, mind you, and today, for example, is 20 degrees out there! He wasn't too happy. 

Now that we've stopped. I'm at a lost now. I know that in a couple years that area will be HOTT! But then I really want to get my business off the ground and I think a flip would give us the capital to move ahead quickly and not have to wait a year or more before we get our next property (that's about how long I imagine it would take us to save enough money). 

Here's what I'm thinking, we found a new contractor that has done many many rehabs similar to this one in Baltimore City. He works with my other brother who is an electrician and came highly recommended. I got a good gut read from him and he taught me a lot during our walk thru. His guesstimate on the rehab was to go high end like the houses in the area and the ones next door. He said $40k for the rehab and 12 weeks. He said we needed to do a scope of work to make sure we were on the same page. He even said he'd hire my brother so that he can learn and be able to work with me in the future. But at this point, I wasn't sure about the money. My personal loan is for 6 years/10% fully amortized, so my monthly payment is $687. I was thinking about getting a hard money loan to pay off the personal loan and then add the $40k for the rehab, so a total of $75k we'd be all in. First off, I don't even know if a private lender would even do this type of loan so I'll have to just wait and see. My mom, who is a realtor, thinks that because of the low prices of the houses next door will allow us to only be able to sell ours for maybe $120-130K even if we went high-end, but she doesn't work in that area and hasn't been "actively" doing real estate for years, but she is a wealth of knowledge with 25+ years of experience.  

I'm so stressed, anxious, tired, exhausted, at a lost...I wrote this long book so that you guys can know what it is going on and will best be able to assist, guide, provide advice. 

What are your thoughts? 

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Wholesaler, Rehabber and Landlord · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
9y

Some will say sell and some will say stick to it. I will say sell, BUT I will tell you how you can sell and make some $$$$$$$. 

Find out who is doing the rehab next to you on either side. Approach them with your great property that you already gutted and has ready for them to jump into. IF they are not interested, go to the other rehabs in progress that are in the area.  Maybe someone will want to joint venture with you on the project. Meaning the other person will put in the rest of the rehab money, help you manage construction and/or get it completed in exchange for a % of the deal. If your partner put in 50k and now you are in for 85k or even if it went up to 100k and you sold for 200k that would be a 50k profit for your half. 

There has to be a better way to finish this with a profit than a loss. When it is all over you can look at all the ways you messed up, but right now work on making it a win for you and for another investor.

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  • Investor/Landlord · Farmington Hills, MI · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    This project threatens your finances, your family relationships, and your mental health. Sell it now. If the area is as hot as you say you may be able to make a little money or, at least, recoup most of your expenses. If you wait until this project destroys your finances it will also worsen your family situation and maybe your health. You will have much fewer options then. Desperate sellers attract vulture buyers. Sell it now.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y

    Sounds like you were doing great when it was just going to be your rental. I would have scratched and saved, eating pb & j while driving a beater before borrowing at 11%, but the goal was sound.

    The greedy, non-working partner derailed this. Your husband was right. We don't pay a partner until we share the spoils, if any. It's extra sad your partner is your brother. Additionally extra sad you changed your whole purpose of this project on his behalf and for his benefit.

    I only shared all that to help ID what went wrong for the future. I'm with Jeff on this.  Too much family drama to make this work. I'd sell and only do arms-length, solo projects in the future.  I'd also sacrifice and save money first.

    Best wishes to you!

  • Investor · Portsmouth, VA · Member since 2016 · 289 posts · 107 votes
    9y

    Don't mix family with business...especially family that does not have much to lose. I would sell and start over.

  • Wholesaler, Rehabber and Landlord · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Some will say sell and some will say stick to it. I will say sell, BUT I will tell you how you can sell and make some $$$$$$$. 

    Find out who is doing the rehab next to you on either side. Approach them with your great property that you already gutted and has ready for them to jump into. IF they are not interested, go to the other rehabs in progress that are in the area.  Maybe someone will want to joint venture with you on the project. Meaning the other person will put in the rest of the rehab money, help you manage construction and/or get it completed in exchange for a % of the deal. If your partner put in 50k and now you are in for 85k or even if it went up to 100k and you sold for 200k that would be a 50k profit for your half. 

    There has to be a better way to finish this with a profit than a loss. When it is all over you can look at all the ways you messed up, but right now work on making it a win for you and for another investor.

  • Rental Property Investor · Malvern, PA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 934 votes
    9y

    I agree with the above thoughts and add the developer you just found to the list @Rick Pozos just suggested.  Choosing that developer would allow you to get out with a profit or at least breaking even, hopefully, and you could help your brother.  The developer might also help your brother learn some process and discipline if that is what he needs.

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    9y

    @Lynn Hill-Torres I like @Rick Pozos positive thinking.  However you have made some poor assumptions.  The houses that are selling for $200K probably have had a $80K rehab done to them. That area is still going to be a tough sell, in the short term.  Long run the Hopkins area development will be coming for perhaps the next 10 years. But don't count on future prices today. 

    I suspect your rehab estimate of 10-12K was pretty low even for a rental. I have spent that much on a house that was "Ready to rent"

    I would look into talking to other rehabbers in the area, potentially for partnering but more realistically to sell them your property. If the full gut job down the street got $35K, you may be  able to get out this without loosing anything. Trust me, Lots of people get in your position and it is tough to get out. As other said selling now, even at a loss, may be a better option then a slow torturous death. 

    If  you are going to go bust anyway "Accelerate the Splat" The sooner you get past this the sooner you can get back on the right track.

  • Investor · Oxford, AL · Member since 2016 · 1 post · 1 vote
    9y
    I don't think I understood all your information, but could you possibly find a bank to refinance your property. 11% interest is really steep. Then if you own the home you are currently living in, get a line of equity(credit) and use that money to fix up your other property. You only pay interest on what you have spent, and interest is usually around 5%. I don't think your current residence has to be fully paid off on order to do that. As far as your brother goes, I understand wanting to help. I'm doing the same thing for my brother right now. I'd definitely evaluate that situation. Tough love has its place. I would verify what I am telling you with someone more experienced, as I am new and learning as well.
  • Rental Property Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2015 · 278 posts · 156 votes
    9y

    @Lynn Hill-Torres you have my sympathies.

    I have a house, a very small house in Baltimore, currently getting fixed up and I would have loved if it were $10-15K to fix. It's estimated north of $50k. 

    Family entanglements can be hard. I tried to hire a normal company to put up a fence on my Florida property but my mom/property manager hired my dad to do it, back in August. Well half of the fence is up and the contractors (hired sometime in October) for the Baltimore house will probably get done renovating the house before dad finishes putting up the whole fence at the Florida house. My dad does have a legit business that's as old as me, but because I grew up in the business I know his customer service is crap. I have childhood memories of dealing with my dad's angry customers.... and now I'm one of them. I got mom to agree to let me hire a non-family owned (got lot's of family members with business) fencing company come spring if he doesn't finish the job by the end of the year. I'll have to keep reminding her and maybe dad will finish out of pride. Every time I threaten to hire a non-family member, he finishes the job. Why do I keep using my dad's business? Because eventually.........eventually he gets the job done at the lowest financial price (parts + free labor), but it costs a lot emotionally.

    So my advice is to end this business with your brother. No hard feelings but it's just not working for you, because it looks like it is just not working for you, and there is no more money. I'm sorry that things didn't work out as you'd hope. 

  • Hurst, TX · Member since 2016 · 192 posts · 114 votes
    9y
    Sell ASAP. Cut your losses. It reminds me of a hot stock I bought once that had great potential but kept dropping and dropping and dropping so I doubled down every time because it HAD to eventually go up, right? Well, the company went bankrupt. Money gone. Lesson learned. Don't keep chasing that rabbit down the hole. SELL!!!
  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    Yes, defiantly sell and recoup.

    In the future never involve family in your financial matters and never ever do anything to help someone else with your investment plans, especially family. Business should never include "helping" someone.

    Do not hire a contractor that employs any of your family members either. 

    Separation between your investments and family/friends is essential when you understand that going in you must be prepared to lose everything.

  • Investor · san antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 133 posts · 43 votes
    9y

    i know it sucks going through it now, but youre learning a ton of good lessons on this one.  Your next project will be a cakewalk after applying what you are learning now.  

  • Investor · Salt Lake City, UT · Member since 2016 · 78 posts · 38 votes
    9y
    Either joint venture with someone working in the area. If the numbers are as good as you think then it shouldn't be to hard. Or sell and cut your losses ASAP.
  • John CasmonPro Member
    Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Lynn Hill-Torres Agree with @Rick Pozos to see if others would be interested in partnering, but you should have an agent perform a CMA first so you understand the ARV. If nothing materializes, sell as quickly as you can. Even if things go great, you will have a lot more stress and frustration between either your husband, brother, mother or all three. Rinse your hands of the deal.

    Doesn't sound like you even want to flip houses so I'd suggest working your plan and staying focused on figuring out how to execute it when you run into an obstacle. Don't get sidetracked into flipping houses if you don't want to be flipping houses. 

  • Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes
    9y

    thoughts?...houses that burn to the ground sometimes have insurance coverage. 

  • Lansing, MI · Member since 2015 · 301 posts · 149 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed - are you suggesting the house catches fire somehow???

  • Real Estate Agent · Warrenton, MO · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 12 votes
    9y

    I'm really sorry to hear this didn't work out for you. I just completed a flip with my dad and sister and it went well -some stress but nothing like that. You are right to look for a solution now, before it gets even worse. Sit down look at the numbers, figure out exactly how much money you have in the project. I like the idea of approaching another group in the area that's doing a remodel to see if they will buy it. Do this with confidence, not desperation. 

    You were on track for a rental it seems, but got derailed. Learn that lesson for next time.  

  • Real Estate Agent · Garden City, NY · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Lynn Hill-Torres It's possible to find some finishing money through a partner that will take a stake in the venture.

    First thing to do is nail down some solid numbers. It looks like there is a lot of fuzzy math going on. Investments can't be run that way. If you had solid numbers, you would have put a stop to the work right away as the carrying costs were starting to build.

    You need to run this through the BP calculator or on spreadsheet with solid ARV comps and nail down the rehab money needed to finish.

    Time is money. Every month this drags on without getting a renter in there is going to eat a hole in your pocket.

    I also agree that your brother shouldn't be getting a salary for his work and getting a cut down the road. If he was working for free and you only paid for materials, then that would be building equity into the project. He's getting a salary as he works but you are the one with your money on the line.

  • Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 7 votes
    9y

    deep sigh. 

    I will take all into consideration. Thank you all. 

  • Investor · Brenham, TX · Member since 2016 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    IF you decide not to sell, the first thing you need to do is come up with a solid scope of work and get a firm price to complete the project.  Next, do as other have previously said and either find someone to share equity in the deal or get a loan to complete the project.

    Best of luck!

  • Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Steven Mitchell:

    i know it sucks going through it now, but youre learning a ton of good lessons on this one.  Your next project will be a cakewalk after applying what you are learning now.  

    Uh, in regard to your last sentence, I would doubt that!

    But fortunately she will learn her lesson and never make the same mistake twice.  That's the best we can hope for as investors.  Never assume a "cake walk".  The best investors became the best investors by learning about ALL risk that they are taking and developing ways/systems/processes to minimize them.

  • Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 398 posts · 156 votes
    9y

    @Lynn Hill-Torres

    Hey Lynn, sorry to hear about your misfortune. However if you look on the bright side you have been given plenty of consultation for free. 

    I believe that in order to learn from your mistake its essential to know where the break down occurred. In this case I believe at least to vital errors were made. 1.) Not having a scope of work to guide the process and expectations.  2.) Changing plans mid-way through the project. 

    Im in agreement with others as to cut your losses and sell and regroup with a better game plan when your ready to invest in another property having learned from these lessons.  

  • Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Lynn Hill-Torres,

    I can't really add much, as I'm not in the flipping market, but let me just say .. I understand.. I originally estimated  $10K-$15K in renovations, what turned out to be around $35K, so you never really understand the cost until you're in there, dirt under your nails and at the verge of screaming because of contractors.  I also sympathize, because initially, to save money, we hired a friend who did, this.. again, big mistake... he caused us SOOO MUCH STRESS!  It sucks even worse that it's your brother.. sorry!  He gets paid in sweat equity.. if he demands the $500/month, tell him the total amount is coming out of his portion when you sell it...  I just wanted to say, I feel your pain!    Never mix business with family/friends, and have very clear written contracts of expectations, including dates, material costs, etc... good luck!

  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 247 posts · 321 votes
    9y

    Rehabbing/Buy and Holds are hard. Its twice as hard in Baltimore City. Almost all my rentals I've rehabbed and rented were bought by newbies who ran out of money.

  • Contractor · Glen Cove, NY · Member since 2016 · 209 posts · 89 votes
    9y

    So, by now you realize your errors in business judgement with the family so I won't rub it in. I trust you will not be doing the family thing again. It is not easy to fire family for sure. My opinion is only to do flipping as you really have to have a strong gut and be a real gambler to be a landlord. I would rather be in the stock market if I was to throw my money to the wind and hope for ROI.

    To me flipping at least assures collateral in owning property. This is why banks approve as property as collateral. Anyway I would just do a very short clean up of what yiu have done and no more than necessary. No frills, no emotion. Put it up for sale immediately. do not concern yourself with the past events. Let the net owner play decorator and buy the appliances, choose the color, Leave it in primer and jump out with whatever profit you can.  Remember that closing costs, attorney fees and taxes are not profit you should come away with modest profit to cover the interest you lost the deal. So, it was not a total bust. You learned something going to the school of hard knocks. Use this experience in doing better deals moving forward. Every experienced investor has war stories that made them a better more experienced investor.  Happy Festivus for the rest of us. :-) 

  • Rental Property Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 257 votes
    9y

    Hi @Lynn Hill-Torres, first of all my heart goes out to you, this sounds like a very stressful situation.  I have a rental 2 blocks from there on Patterson Park Ave.  Huge potential in that neighborhood, but as @Ned Carey mentioned it is still very early in the turnaround.  I see a lot of flips that sit on the market for long periods of time.  So I think the top priority right now is to find a good realtor (who's not family) and identify specific comps.  Find out what this property is worth so you can decide whether to finish the project or sell now.  It will also guide you on what finish quality you'll need to match the comps...and what it will cost to achieve that.  

    I tend to agree with other comments that you should sell now, but that may not be possible without a significant loss.  That's a tough pill to swallow, and easier said than done.  

    Be conservative in your estimate of ARV...the pool of buyers is still very limited in this neighborhood due to crime and safety...if you decide to push ahead, your potential buyers may be limited to singles and couples without kids. Some comments on the neighborhood:

    • There is still active drug dealing in the immediate area.  I hired a local kid as a bird dog to scout vacants, and he quit after one day because he was worried he might be perceived as an informant (and get killed).
    • Violent crime remains high. Hopkins keeps armed security posts at the 4 corners of the hospital, 24/7.  

    Buyers will know this, so pricing it right will be massively important...avoid what has happened to so many others in the neighborhood.

    And finally, get more bids from contractors to finish the job! Even if you sell now, you must know the completion cost in order to price it correctly for other rehabbers.  And finally, don't hire this GC who offered to employ your brother...that shows either bad judgment or intent to manipulate you.

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