Real Estate Agent · Suffolk, VA · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 11 votes
I am about to close on my first rental using the BRRRR strategy. We (my son and I) will be doing most of the work ourselves including roofing, siding, gutters, windows, new floors, kitchen, bath, and paint. No major footprint change. Is there any work we need to have permits for or will an inspection be required prior to selling down the road? Insurance for example? My insurance agent came out and looked at the property and required us to get a builders risk policy until the work is finished. It raised this question in my mind. Anyone know what I can expect? Thanks!
Rental Property Investor · Napa, CA · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 75 votes
7y
The best thing for you to do would be to reach out to the building department. Explain to them what you will be doing and they can tell you if the work will require permits.
Rental Property Investor · Napa, CA · Member since 2016 · 69 posts · 75 votes
7y
The best thing for you to do would be to reach out to the building department. Explain to them what you will be doing and they can tell you if the work will require permits.
Developer · Charlottesville, VA · Member since 2018 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
7y
@Tricia Miller As long as you are only doing cosmetic repairs and not doing anything structural or adding or moving electrical plumbing or HVAC etc. you do not need a permit.
Rental Property Investor · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 9 votes
7y
@Tricia Miller my fiancé and I are about to close on our first "live-in BRRRR in VB next month and were looking into this. What we have found is concurrent with the others. As long as no structural changes are occurring you're good. The only gray area is non-load bearing interior walls. If anyone knows I'd love to find out too!
Rental Property Investor · Abbeville, SC · Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 1 vote
7y
@Tricia Miller
Last year I replaced all the siding, and windows on my own house. Had some family come help and knocked it out in a week. Half way through the project an inspector stopped by and informed me if I didn’t get a permit by the end of the day, he would shut me down. I explained I owned the house, was living in it, and all the lifts and other equipment was rented. He said it didn’t matter. So always check with your building department, especially if your work is occurring out doors!
Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
@Tricia Miller you should really reach out to the local building department and ask....many people are very misguided as to what does and doesn't need a permit, and I'll tell you it really depends on the local codes. You can go and look at the local municipal code which will specify things that require or don't require a permit.
For context, I grew up and invest in FL and I now live and invest in CA and work as a site/land use civil engineer.
In FL (Orlando/Central FL area) ALL exterior windows and doors require a permit even if the replacement is the same size ect. Additionally all roofs require a permit even if you are only doing shingles, because the state requires updated nailing even on shingle replacements. Fences of any type require permits, even if you simply replace an existing say 6' wood fence with a new 6' wood fence.
In CA (San Diego specifically) the City does not require a permit for windows and doors for SFR and (I believe) duplexes, but does for all other building types. Roofs do not require any permits unless you 'alter the diaphragm' meaning replace sheathing. Fences up to 6' high do not require a permit, however taller than 6' do.
So taking one areas permit requirements to another won't work. The point is that building departments have over the years determined what is 'important' in their area, and without looking at the code for your area none of us can actually answer your question with more than generalities.
Contractor · La Mirada, CA · Member since 2015 · 66 posts · 48 votes
7y
@Greg Dickerson
It is so hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that you don’t need a permit for all that stuff. In Southern California we have to have a permit for everything, you can’t change your windows, do your roof, do your siding, Remodel your bathroom, or remodel your kitchen without multiple inspections. You can paint and put floor covering down that’s about it. We even have a drywall screw inspection, so after you put up your drywall the inspector comes out and make sure you have enough screws in your drywall before you mud and tape. Must be nice to live and work in the free world.
It is so hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that you don’t need a permit for all that stuff. In Southern California we have to have a permit for everything, you can’t change your windows, do your roof, do your siding, Remodel your bathroom, or remodel your kitchen without multiple inspections. You can paint and put floor covering down that’s about it. We even have a drywall screw inspection, so after you put up your drywall the inspector comes out and make sure you have enough screws in your drywall before you mud and tape. Must be nice to live and work in the free world.
Yes it makes things easier. You can even build buildings on land zoned agricultural in my area without a permit. Pretty crazy.
It is so hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that you don’t need a permit for all that stuff. In Southern California we have to have a permit for everything, you can’t change your windows, do your roof, do your siding, Remodel your bathroom, or remodel your kitchen without multiple inspections. You can paint and put floor covering down that’s about it. We even have a drywall screw inspection, so after you put up your drywall the inspector comes out and make sure you have enough screws in your drywall before you mud and tape. Must be nice to live and work in the free world.
The permits are not what bothers me. What bothers me is that when replacing you are often held to the current rules and regulations. It does not matter that you are simply replacing something whose life is up.
An example is windows. Bedroom windows in my market now are required to have easier ingress/egress than the original windows. This implies that often to replace a bedroom window requires enlarging and lowering the window. There are also more stringent regulations for windows near doors than the original windows. These regulations add cost to the window upgrade that does not add value to any appraisal. I guess it is simply part of the cost of doing a window upgrade.
In justification for the better ingress/egress regulation, I have been told it was the result of a fireman having issues evacuating someone out of a unit (so it has good intentions). The issue is all the units that have not upgraded the windows or update the windows without permit, do not have the same expense/safety.
Realtor · Hanover Twp, PA · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
7y
@Tricia Miller, I would DEFINITELY check with your local code enforcement. My experience is that everything on your list except paint would require a permit AND you would not be allowed to pull a permit yourself UNLESS it was your primary residence or UNLESS you were a licensed and insured contractor. Rules to vary from place to place, but I think this is the most common scenario.
Even if your area allows for work to be done with no permit. I would consider what could happen if something happens to a tenant, their guest, or their belongings if something happens as a result of your work. If you were a licensed and insured contractor you'd probably be covered, otherwise I'm not certain.
Rental Property Investor · Suffolk, VA · Member since 2017 · 143 posts · 78 votes
7y
@Tricia Miller Hi Tricia. I just flipped a house in Suffolk and the stuff you listed doesn't require a permit in Suffolk. With that said, Suffolk is super easy to work with and very helpful so don't be shy about going in for a visit. It's worth checking anytime you are doing framing, plumbing (non-fixture), and electric wiring. And for any of that work, even if you get a permit, you still can't do the work yourself as a flip unless your are licensed (only personal residence and rentals you can do the work yourself). I know a lot of people do it anyway but there is a risk there.
Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 174 posts · 124 votes
7y
@Tricia Miller definitely follow the advice of @Matt Devincenzo. What does and doesn't require a permit is very localized. I have a place in New Jersey where everything, and I mean everything, requires a permit. Putting up a fence requires a site inspection before the permit is issued and after the work is completed. Replacing a hot water heater requires a permit but there is no inspection at all. I have places in Philly, 30 minutes away, where none of that is required. Learn what is required in your area by your local building office.
Specialist · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 298 posts · 118 votes
7y
I have found from personal experience to check with the local license inspections department (L&I). In New Castile County Delaware, almost nothing short of an addition needs a permit. However, 10 minutes away in Pennsylvania, the rules for work requiring permits adjusts from township to township! The same with New Jersey.
Don't even get me started on Philadelphia requirements. They wouldn't even let me pull my own permits (since it was owned by my LLC...not TECHNICALLY me), only a licensed GC (or the INDIVIDUAL property owner) can pull the permits. So, I gained a GC license, just to control permitting on my projects (Yes, I AM a control freak).
So, I always check out the permit requirements tied to work type with the local municipality. I find that it avoids fines and stop work orders. Plus I sleep better at night.
I have found from personal experience to check with the local license inspections department (L&I). In New Castile County Delaware, almost nothing short of an addition needs a permit. However, 10 minutes away in Pennsylvania, the rules for work requiring permits adjusts from township to township! The same with New Jersey.
Don't even get me started on Philadelphia requirements. They wouldn't even let me pull my own permits (since it was owned by my LLC...not TECHNICALLY me), only a licensed GC (or the INDIVIDUAL property owner) can pull the permits. So, I gained a GC license, just to control permitting on my projects (Yes, I AM a control freak).
So, I always check out the permit requirements tied to work type with the local municipality. I find that it avoids fines and stop work orders. Plus I sleep better at night.
Amen Rob on the GC license in Philly. And don't get me started on that 25 hour OSHA course that they make you take to get the license.
Anyways,
@ Trisha
In my experience, the simplest way to think about it is...If you have to open a wall you probably have to get a permit.
In terms of selling the property, in most states you have to disclose certain known "issues" in a sellers disclosure. Whether or not it matters that the upgrades have permits is usually up to the buyer and they could possibly use that in negotiations so be prepared.
I have found from personal experience to check with the local license inspections department (L&I). In New Castile County Delaware, almost nothing short of an addition needs a permit.
This is most certainly not true for the City of Wilmington and I think Newark is similarly more strict @Rumen Mladenov could advise better on that topic though.
Just putting this here as a disclaimer against broad statements and encouraging anyone reading to due their own due diligence to make sure they know what is needed.
Specialist · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 298 posts · 118 votes
7y
Very true in reference to the City of Wilmington, DE and the requirements for permits pertaining to improvements. My comment was referencing the County, not the individual cities or towns within the county. Have seen Wilmington permit requirements migrate through the years and get, in my opinion, a little crazy, almost to the point that some investors avoid doing projects there.
Towns like Elsmere, DE and some small towns & townships in Delaware County, PA seem to almost count on permitting fees to help them survive. In Elsmere, DE the realtor that I used needed a permit to install a for sale sign in the yard! I have had to purchase a temporary GC license (exceeding $1K) in addition to the permit required in a small municipality just to work on the property.
Every municipality is different, so it is best to research which municipality would oversee your project and become familiar with their regs.
Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2018 · 428 posts · 484 votes
7y
@Rob Beeman couldn't agree more with how DelCo like to get their cut. In places like Glenolden or Ridley, it can get a little ridiculous with the hoops they make you jump through. @Tricia Miller for this reason you should ALWAYS call the L&I for each township since it can change within a stones throw and they change more frequently than they should.