is wholesaling illegal?

166 Replies

@Brian Gibbons

I'm adding cavalier to my vocabulary Brian, and all this time I thought it was a car. 

Yes, it seems many if not most trying to get into real estate do so with a very cavalier approach, gross indifference without regard to social, economic or ethical aspects and from there it snowballs into the illegal. 

In real estate, Dorthy, you better pay attention to the man behind the curtain! :)   

And when you market a property there are required documents such as Seller Disclosures, Agency Disclosures, Legal Disclosures and Lead Paint documents that need to be completed. If the wholesaler isn't executing those documents, then he/she is just asking for trouble. Furthermore, as a licensed Real Estate salesperson who spends thousands of dollars annually on Continuing Education, licensing, dues, MLS fees, Errors and Omissions insurance, etc. I will not tolerate an unlicensed/uninsured Wholesaler to undercut me and will report them to the licensing board immediately.

This post has been removed.

Originally posted by @Brittaney Woods :
@Brittaney Woods, why do you think its borderline unethical?
 

If a wholesaler has a seller under the impression that the wholesaler is going to buy their house and can afford to pay that large lump sum of money (knowing they can't buy it) that is lying and can be considered unethical.

That's why I always let them know I'm marketing the property as well and if it's something I am interested in purchasing as a buy and hold I let them know that I will be able to buy their property if the (hard money) lender considers it a good deal.

Brittaney: you state you are "marketing" the property. You might want to call FREC and get a legal opinion. You might need to request that in writing. I talked to them about two weeks ago. Marketing a property you do not own, for a fee, is brokering.  You can also go to www.myfloridalicense.com and find their contact info there. I talked to a "wholesaler" last week that gets the owners to sign an agreement stating she can "market, advertise, show" etc the property. Nice try! That is called a LISTING AGREEMENT. Simply getting an OK from a clueless owner to do so does not make it legal. That would be like getting written permission to rob a bank. That would not be an adequate defense against criminal charges. If you have an assignable contract, you CAN market the contract. You cannot market the house. That is the fine line between operating within or outside the law.

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs :

@Ken Graham    when a regulator wants to tag you with their version of whats lawful or not... its not up to them to prove the case.. you either acquiesce or you take the case to the law judge.. and you pay thousands if not 100's of thousands in attorneys fee's to prove your case.. rarely if ever done unless its a public type company... all of us mere mortals just take what the regulators say and move on... I know I had this happen to me personally where the regulators had one position my attorney and me thought we had the law on our side... the next step was administrative law court. and a 100k plus fight .. guess which way we went.. we got our hand slapped did the way the regulators wanted to see it done and went on to do another 20 plus million in business with their blessings.

I understand your point and agree with much of it.

I still firmly believe there are legal, ethical and proper ways to wholesale real estate (without a license) that will not attract attention of regulators. There are also improper and risky methods that can bring the wrath of regulators.

Regarding Ohio, I read the statements about wholesaling from the Ohio Real Estate Commission and I believe their interpretation of the laws is EXTREMELY aggressive and questionable. Depending on the specific facts of a case I am very skeptical of their position would be upheld in court. Under their interpretation of the law, someone buying and selling multiple FSBOs without using an agent would be violating the law.

I doubt most courts would accept that position but it doesn't matter until someone challenges it.

If I were wholesaling in Ohio (or another aggressive state) I would probably take the path of least resistance and get licensed. It would be more cost effective than an expensive legal battle.

Originally posted by @Bill Gulley :
Originally posted by @Felix Goldstein:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/masked_man...

@Richard C. , @Bill Gulley. No Bill don't know that guy. just because he has the same name doesn't mean its me. funny story though.

I know, same name, same hair color, eyes, similar nose bridge and facial points, same area, that wild and crazy kid in the mug shot looked similar to you, but you changed your avatar picture, so now we can't just see a little weight loss.

You might expect a bit of ribbing around town for awhile.

Anyway, nice Porsche, red gets more tickets I believe, LOL.  

Bill, are you going to believe your own eyes when you can take Felix's word for it? It's not like he has an uncommon name like Mike Johnson and lives in a small town like Chicago. I bet there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Felix Goldsteins in his part of Ohio. 

And besides this alleged bank robber lived in Highland Heights, and Felix's company is based in Richmond Heights (according to docs he filed with the state of Ohio). That's a 4 minute drive away, according to Google maps.  And according to wikipedia both those cities combined have 18,000 residents. Couldn't possibly be the same guy. What are the odds?  A million to one? 

And why did he choose now to change his profile picture from one that looks just like the robber to a picture of a Porsche? Don't read too much into that.  He was just overtaken by his love of german automotive engineering when he read that article about the high speed chase. 

Originally posted by @Felix Goldstein :

That was really my biggest challange when getting started investing in real estate. i didn't read a lot of the post in the wholesale catagory, but i have not seen one taht address this.

 I'm calling BS on this post. I just typed "Wholesaling Legal" in the search box on the top right, and there are 143+ PAGES of posts regarding this topic. You're just lazy and not willing to do the research to find the answer. If you don't like research, don't like to read, and instead like things handed to you, good luck in this business, but you should not upset your boss at your day job.

This post has been removed.

Originally posted by @Brittaney Woods :
Originally posted by @Felix Goldstein:

@Richard C. there is a reason why attorneys will quote cases from courts in another state. but then again Liers (i mean Lawyers) say all sorts of non sense.  i can think of plenty of reasons why someone wholesales instead of getting a license.  i read the requirements to get a license in ohio a few years ago so i don't 100% remember them but i believe it says that only certain felonies would prevent someone from getting a license.  so if some guy that burglarizes houses, then the state would probably not give them a license.  and rightly so. if someone got caught with some cocaine well they might allow that person to get a license.  another reason is becuase the guy wouldn't want to be stuck between a buyer and seller.  an agent basically has no control. a wholesaler has a lot of control.

@Brian Gibbons ,  with the way things are going in this country, pretty soon one will need a permit get a license.  what next one would need a license to breath? Well with all the global warming the government needs to control peoples breathing. that's what's causing the earth's temperature to rise. we can't have all these people breathing so much.

 

@Kiffin Daniels ,thanks :) it annoys me and interferes with my business  with all the misinformation out there about wholesaling. that's why i decided to start this thread.  Also there are people on here trying to figure out the truth and all the lies about wholesaling is turning them off to investing.

@Ken Graham , yes i doubt the commissions opion is legally binding. they could start lying and playnig games. but for the most part they don't.  what he told me is that 1. i can assign a purchase contract. 2. there is a statute that says wholesaling is illegal. however when i asked him to send me the statute he sent me the statute that says selling property for another requires a license. haveing come across any ohio cases, but i haven't looked for them. im sure there is one out there. the interesting thing is in the case that you found, is the guy still got in trouble but not becuase he was brokering without a license. he was telling people that he was a broker but he wasn't. its strange that he would lie like that. if you ask google you can probably find some ohio cases.

@Brittaney Woods, just saw that wrote "Define "everyone"... are these real estate professionals or just random people?"   no one addressed that. i'm confused by your question. explain

In your original post you said "everyone" was telling you wholesaling is illegal. I just wanted to know if real estate professionals told you this or if random people not involved in real estate told you this.

Ken Rishel, a member here who is in compliance and isn't @ mentioned since he's not in this area so much and doesn't need to be bothered with this.......made a post with a great observation on a matter that directly relates, I'll paraphrase basically, with added clarity:

In law, there are primary laws enacted by government legislative bodies, Congress, Senate, at the federal and state levels. Then there are secondary rules and regulations made under those laws that carry the force of law. We have all kinds of agencies in government, HUD, EPA, Treasury Department, Securities and Exchange, federally, we have real estate commissions, department of natural resources, etc.

These primary laws grant two main powers to agencies related to the laws passed. 1. the power to interpret the law and to make rulings, changes, amend or supplement regulations to enhance the administration and operations of the laws enacted for the public good. And 2. to enforce those laws, rules and regulations by administrative powers. 

This is known as administrative law, agencies can impose fines and can apply other tools for enforcement.   For prosecution of criminal offenses, an agency refers the case to the proper jurisdiction such as the Attorney General. Prosecution goes to the courts, enforcement can be by administrative hearings.

If you ask most attorneys who deal with prosecutions in court, the will tell you they don't want to show up for hearings in administrative laws. Because they will generally lose, or at least they don't really win. Why? Because a hearing is not a court, but that body is charged with the interpreting the law, applying their rules and opinions (which are not arbitrary but set in published opinions) and then inflict pain! In any hearing, the regulators will have their ducks in a row!

After a hearing, a violator may go to court as a judicial process. 

Here comes the judge. The poor defense attorney is pleading the case against those who have been authorized under law to interpret it, administrate it, enforce it and the burden of proof as to the commission of any violation is shown by that interpretation, it is on the defendant to prove otherwise. It's on you to show you were not speeding in a school zone, not on the cop who gave you the ticket, they have the radar recordings!

The best you can hope for is arbitration and compromise, the regulator has unimpeachable authority. Any judge will admit, the expert in the room is that agency, their job is then, at best, finding and equitable solution or appropriate sentence. 

They say there are no guarantees in court, that's not really true, there will always be one winner in such cases, your defense attorney! Government employees get paid the same regardless of that they might be doing!

So, all the high school graduates who took civics and went on to become their own lawyer, including those that got passed Sesame Streets' How a Bill Becomes a Law, who are detached from reality need to regroup. Stop making a fool of yourself.

Here's a suggestion, get a formal education and stop relying on your uniformed opinions. Seek competent legal advice!

As to BP making this topic confusing, let's remember what BP is, a SOCIAL real estate investor's site. It is not an accredited university or college, it's not a government information site, it's not a law firm handing out legal information, it is in the business of driving internet traffic and collecting membership fees. You need to read the Terms Of Use for BP if you think this is an education site! Pay attention to disclaimers! 

This thread, like others about wholesaling is no different than the others. You have those claiming to be in the business but probably haven't done a deal, if they have landed something, their earning are meager as they attempt to wheel and deal. Newbies trying to get started defending what they do, they simply can't admit taken by guru misinformation as the seek their fortune. Naive! They will either find reality or they will go do something else. 

BTW, speaking of licenses, let me predict now that in ten years, real estate investors will need a license. Yes, a license for any real estate business activity. It will allow ma and pa some exemptions, but at some point, if you profit in real estate, you'll need a license! Why? Because investors are screwing up a good thing, just like seller financing with Dodd-Frank, the regulators and government as well as the public are only going to take so much. The flocking in of newbies into this area with no knowledge is already at a breaking point.  Great days ahead IMO. :)       

       

    

@Bill Gulley

"As to BP making this topic confusing, let's remember what BP is, a SOCIAL real estate investor's site. It is not an accredited university or college, it's not a government information site, it's not a law firm handing out legal information, it is in the business of driving internet traffic and collecting membership fees. You need to read the Terms Of Use for BP if you think this is an education site! Pay attention to disclaimers!"

  Thanks for addressing what I mentioned above, in regards to BP, as well as all the other great points you made in your post.  I understand your input but still think its disingenuous they would post pro-wholesaling articles if its illegal.  To me this would undermine the credibility of the site and, therefore, future revenues if they were found to be spreading false information.  Anyway I get what you are saying.  I'm not a paying member, yet, but appreciate what I learn here daily.

Originally posted by @Eric Beale :

@Bill Gulley

"As to BP making this topic confusing, let's remember what BP is, a SOCIAL real estate investor's site. It is not an accredited university or college, it's not a government information site, it's not a law firm handing out legal information, it is in the business of driving internet traffic and collecting membership fees. You need to read the Terms Of Use for BP if you think this is an education site! Pay attention to disclaimers!"

  Thanks for addressing what I mentioned above, in regards to BP, as well as all the other great points you made in your post.  I understand your input but still think its disingenuous they would post pro-wholesaling articles if its illegal.  To me this would undermine the credibility of the site and, therefore, future revenues if they were found to be spreading false information.  Anyway I get what you are saying.  I'm not a paying member, yet, but appreciate what I learn here daily.

 Hi Eric,

I am in California, and I wish you the best.

See

http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/21/topics/2184...

Make friends with investor - real estate brokers in California.

Learn the code,

Make some money.

Good luck!

Originally posted by @Eric Beale :

@Bill Gulley

"As to BP making this topic confusing, let's remember what BP is, a SOCIAL real estate investor's site. It is not an accredited university or college, it's not a government information site, it's not a law firm handing out legal information, it is in the business of driving internet traffic and collecting membership fees. You need to read the Terms Of Use for BP if you think this is an education site! Pay attention to disclaimers!"

  Thanks for addressing what I mentioned above, in regards to BP, as well as all the other great points you made in your post.  I understand your input but still think its disingenuous they would post pro-wholesaling articles if its illegal.  To me this would undermine the credibility of the site and, therefore, future revenues if they were found to be spreading false information.  Anyway I get what you are saying.  I'm not a paying member, yet, but appreciate what I learn here daily.

I can't agree more. I would be more careful about what I put my logo on, but BP's purpose isn't to bring compliance to investors, more about getting interest generated along with revenues, it is a business. We don't hold the gun dealer or manufacture responsible for the crime.

I think that many of the issues surrounding wholesaling were unknown when some materials may have been written. Real estate is always changing, it is not a static industry, neither is law. Josh has stated time and again that readers are to due their own due diligence.  

I only contribute here and do so very freely, have for over 5 years and believe me, I've seen many changes. I think you have a very valid point, worthy of its own thread.    :)

Updated about 3 years ago

BTW, just saw Aaron's post, we don't hardly ever agree, but I do this time I can, if you need answers you want to hear, go look them up! If I were admin, I'd lock this thread! :)

In all sincerely, I am a big believer in redemption. I have given many people second chances, employed ex-cons, provided the start-up money for the second business of a guy whose first flamed out spectacularly, made a point of making sure the guy down the street who got into a legal but very embarrassing sexual mess got invited to the neighborhood cookouts. 

So I am all about giving even a guy who has gotten into very serious trouble with the law a chance to make it.

But redemption requires turning things around. And contempt for regulators, unrestrained ego, combativeness and unwillingness to learn from the experience of others are not good signs.

Originally posted by @Eric Beale :

@Bill Gulley

"As to BP making this topic confusing, let's remember what BP is, a SOCIAL real estate investor's site. It is not an accredited university or college, it's not a government information site, it's not a law firm handing out legal information, it is in the business of driving internet traffic and collecting membership fees. You need to read the Terms Of Use for BP if you think this is an education site! Pay attention to disclaimers!"

  Thanks for addressing what I mentioned above, in regards to BP, as well as all the other great points you made in your post.  I understand your input but still think its disingenuous they would post pro-wholesaling articles if its illegal.  To me this would undermine the credibility of the site and, therefore, future revenues if they were found to be spreading false information.  Anyway I get what you are saying.  I'm not a paying member, yet, but appreciate what I learn here daily.

 

Regarding "I understand your input but still think its disingenuous they would post pro-wholesaling articles if its illegal." BP probably has posts, articles, blogs, and whatever on Lease Options (L/O) as well. Just like 'wholesaling', some states (like mine) regulate Lease Options. The implementation of L/O (like 'wholesaling') varies on a state by state basis. Most L/Os done in states elsewhere would violate NC statute. Most 'wholesaling' in OH violates the Ohio Revised Code. Algorithm Alert: State A != State B End Algorith Alert.
Example: I can fire up a doobie with Wheatie in CO without issue, but not in NC.

It looks like the OP is hell bent on being a test case, and for that I applaud him.

I've posted my OH opinions in the other long OH thread. Look at the exemption to brokerage section in the Ohio Revised Code (4735.01 Real estate broker definitions) carefully. "With reference to real estate situated in this state owned by such person, partnership, association,..." The exemption states "owned by" and the old ORC definition was more liberal (track down my posts in the old OH thread...).

OH changed state law years (based on a court case... see the other thread) and adjusted legal definitions accordingly.  NC has done similar things as have most other states. "Megan's Law" applies in real estate contracts some places, like SC, but not elsewhere, like OH and NC. CO changed state law too. Not real estate, but their change has a SOCIAL NETWORK application as well;)  What's the old saying? If you can't stand the smoke... 

"Wholesaling", just like Brokering, is not illegal when you follow your state laws.

Disclaimers: I have no vested interest at this time in OH real estate.

@Brittaney Woods , both real estate professionals and regular people told me that what i was doing is illegal.  this one person that was (still is selling) this real nice pretty office building told me that when i assign a contract i'm brokering.  that was one of his reasons for not signing the purchase agreement.  my  one close relative told me that i was tricking people!  she still thinks that. she also thinks that i'm brokering even though i explained to her a hundred times what i do.  i can't say that it was "everyone" i had a bunch of people say get something under contract and bring it to me.  i didn't really start off wholesaling in this business.  

my original plan was to invest in only commercial real estate. that is what i decided to do. i didn't know what wholesaling was all about. didn't have the money to pay a lawyer to write up contracts and give me advise. since i wanted to look at the property, i decided i would buy in cuyahoga county (Cleveland area). so next i had to figure out where i would find the properties and where i was going to find the money to buy them. first i found properties just by driving around. even when i was just driving somewhere to do something i would see for sale signs. then i discovered the MLS (mostly overpriced properties on there. although you can find deals on there its like looking for a needle in a hay stack). then i discovered craigslist. as far as finding money i went to pretty much all the banks in town. they ALL said no. then i went in the yellow pages and called mortgage companies (under the section called "mortgages"). couldn't get anyone to loan me from tehre. then i found hard money lenders that would loan to me. then i came up with the idea to get a partner with the money and split the ownership of the property with him. to that the banks said yes to me. so i sort of backed into wholesaling.

@Peter Sanchez. me changing my pic? what are you talking about?  and you must of not noticed that that guy spells his name differently then me.  stop defaming me! I googled "Peter Sanchez attorney" apparently you practice law in the Philippines. where did you get your law degree out of a cracker jacks box? that is what it seems like. with the crazy legal advise you posted on here. maybe i should file a complain against you for giving terrible legal advise. We can deffer that to the DC Bar.

I'd sure hate to see the OP get a forum award out of this thread count, especially as often as he posted and has been simply so argumentative!

Let's lock this down, there are at least 50 other threads with the same thing, just different players.  :)

Some people on here haven't read my account of what the dept of real estate told me.  The investigator said wholesaing is illegal. then i asked to talk to his manager. he said yes also. then when i explained to him why i think it is legal, he got their lawyer on the phone! She didn't tell me No.  and i would of already gotten a cease and desist letter form them.  i didn't hide from them.  i was kind of nervous when calling them.  but i figured that is the best way to make sure i don't get in trouble.  

@Eric Beale i didn't send them a signed copy of my contract. however, i did tell them that that is the contract that i use, and then i told them that after that is signed, i make a nice flyer and send it out to my list.

  @Randy Johnston what sites were you talking about that i was searching on teh internet? the court case that i found? you must not of read my experience when calling the Real estate dept carefully.  Also, their actions speak louder then their words.  they know my name, company name, address and telephone number. that was in my email that i sent them. as far as their actions. its what they didn't do that speaks louder then their words. they didn't send me a cease and desist letter. unlike some people on here playing games, you actually seem like you are trying to help me. not looking to get in an argument with you. discussion is good. arguing is not. i called the investigator manager a goober becuase among other things he told me that the local city here has no regard for real estate law. that non sense that he was saying that is why i called him a goober. i would use a lot stronger language, but this is a professional website.

nd when you market a property there are required documents such as Seller Disclosures, Agency Disclosures, Legal Disclosures and Lead Paint documents that need to be completed. If the wholesaler isn't executing those documents, then he/she is just asking for trouble. Furthermore, as a licensed Real Estate salesperson who spends thousands of dollars annually on Continuing Education, licensing, dues, MLS fees, Errors and Omissions insurance, etc. I will not tolerate an unlicensed/uninsured Wholesaler to undercut me and will report them to the licensing board immediately.

@Judy P. a wholesaler undercuting you? sounds like you are just afraid of competition :). look around at all that real estate. plenty of business for the both of us. errors and omissions insurance. interesting, i never knew a realtor can get that.  yes some of those disclosures would need to be signed by a wholesaler also. not all those since they don't apply. especially if a commercial property is involved. very little disclosure in commerical properties is required. the brokers that i know are happy to be on my list. (by the way, if i was brokering without a license, brokers would not want anything to do with me. they would be in trouble also even though they are not the ones brokering without a license). to a broker that is a lead that just feel in their inbox. every now and then i will have a broker txt or email me saying that they have someone, that wants to buy my property.

@Ken Graham or anyone else. so this statement from the ohio REC that i've read and heard about.  does anyone know if it actually came from the commission? maybe someone made that up.  

as far as licenses. who i think should be licensed is all the gurus out there that are charging $999 for some videos and forms that aren't right.  but this paragraph is me ranting my opinion.

im not argumentative with everyone on here.

and i did win an award for this post :)

I am a new member here and to be honest I am a bit puzzled by the animosity regarding people's opinions regarding wholesaling. Evidently this is a touchy subject for some and they feel its appropriate to make personal attacks against members with different opinions.

Regardless, I did a little further research, specifically on the topic of wholesaling in Ohio, which seems to be cracking down on certain practices.

Below is a link to an email from Jeff Watson, a very experienced real state attorney in Ohio. Jeff met (in person) with  Ohio's top Real Estate regulator and the Real Estate Commissions's in house council regarding wholesaling.

Jeff's opinion that that wholesaling is legal in Ohio as long as its done CORRECTLY. Although I am sure many wholesalers are not doing things correctly. Please read the post to see exactly how to structure wholesale deals to be in compliance. Even in states other than Ohio these are probably good practices to follow.

If anyone has a BETTER or MORE CREDIBLE source than this PLEASE share it. If you disagree with Jeff then please cite sources.

http://www.realestateinvestingmastery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Letter-from-Jeff-Watson-re-Wholesaling-in-Ohio.pdf

Originally posted by @Felix Goldstein :

@Peter Sanchez. me changing my pic? what are you talking about?  and you must of not noticed that that guy spells his name differently then me.  stop defaming me! I googled "Peter Sanchez attorney" apparently you practice law in the Philippines. where did you get your law degree out of a cracker jacks box? that is what it seems like. with the crazy legal advise you posted on here. maybe i should file a complain against you for giving terrible legal advise. We can deffer that to the DC Bar.

 Look kid, you were found out. It happens. Just dial it back, respect the education and experience of people who have far more of each than you do, and ask for help. People here are very generous with help, even for those who may or may not have been in significant legal trouble in the past. But taking this aggressive attitude with so little to back it up doesn't accomplish anything.

Some pertinent facts:

1. No one with your name has been part of a recorded real estate transaction in the past two years in Ohio;

2. Your LLC is 18 months old, and has also not been a party to any transactions;

3. Interactions with the legal system always leave a trail, should you sufficiently irritate Attorney Sanchez, he can prove certain connections with maybe 5-10 minutes on Lexis-Nexus. If such connections exist, of course.

Originally posted by @Ken Graham :

I am a new member here and to be honest I am a bit puzzled by the animosity regarding people's opinions regarding wholesaling. Evidently this is a touchy subject for some and they feel its appropriate to make personal attacks against members with different opinions.

Regardless, I did a little further research, specifically on the topic of wholesaling in Ohio, which seems to be cracking down on certain practices.

Below is a link to an email from Jeff Watson, a very experienced real state attorney in Ohio. Jeff met (in person) with  Ohio's top Real Estate regulator and the Real Estate Commissions's in house council regarding wholesaling.

Jeff's opinion that that wholesaling is legal in Ohio as long as its done CORRECTLY. Although I am sure many wholesalers are not doing things correctly. Please read the post to see exactly how to structure wholesale deals to be in compliance. Even in states other than Ohio these are probably good practices to follow.

If anyone has a BETTER or MORE CREDIBLE source than this PLEASE share it. If you disagree with Jeff then please cite sources.

http://www.realestateinvestingmastery.com/wp-conte...

 What percentage of "wholesalers":

1. Act as a principal;

2. Market only what they own;

3. Do not make offers contingent on finding a buyer?

Like 1/2 of 1 percent?

"Wholesaling" as THE TERM IS COMMONLY UNDERSTOOD, is illegal in Ohio.

Done correctly it is not.  Almost no one does it correctly.

i can dial it back  it just irritated me that i got defamed and that there are people on here like attorney sanchez that are misleading people. like the whole deference that the court does. come on, that is ridiculous.  and im sure he knows that.  yes people on here seem to be for the most part alright. 

u mentioned abt people guessing how many transactions me or my company has done.  i wasnt going to comment but since you brought it up again... when i assign a contract to someone that is done privately. im sure u know that.  are you trying to get on my nerves again? so there wont be a public record of it.  also perhaps i have more companies that i created. you never know that. and just because my name does not appear as the incorporator on the secretary  of states site, does not mean that i dont own the company. 

@Peter Sanchez

@Richard C.

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