Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
Hi all,
I've been compiling my results from my postcard mailings to Absentee Owners over the past few years. Here's what I've been getting:
Average Call-In Rate: 10.67%
Average Voicemail Rate: 4.40%
My Call-In Rate is the total number of calls I receive (whether they leave a message after listening to my 2-minute pre-recorded message or not) divided by the total number of postcards I send.
My Voicemail Rate is the total number of voicemails I receive after they call in and listen to a 2-3 minute pre-recorded message that tells them a little more about how we buy houses, divided by the total number of postcards I send.
I always have the phone calls directed to this pre-screening voicemail greeting. I don't want to take the calls directly and immediately.
I don't include any website or company name on the postcard, just my name and the phone number for them to call the pre-recorded message. I only use a local phone number.
My list criteria: Last Market Sale Date 10 years ago or more, house not older than 1978 (lead paint year), 3+ BR, 2+ BA, 1000sf+, Absentee Owned in-state and out-of-state, exclude trustees and corporations.
If you're on the fence about direct mail in general, or what direct mail to do, and to what list, I've had great success with this combo of postcards and Absentee Owners. I would encourage you to give it a shot.
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
13y
Thanks for sharing. Have you gotten any deals from these mailings? Response rates are great but in the end are only as good as the deal/profit rates.
I'm curious why so many investors avoid trust owned properties in their list criteria. I've bought from plenty of trusts (and several corps for that matter). While arranging and setting up a trust shows some rudimentary estate planning, it certainly doesn't eliminate anyone from being or becoming a motivated seller. In some areas, the bulk of properties that would end up on an "inherited" list will be properties that transfer the property from the trust to a beneficiary/heir named in the trust. Trusts are becoming a customary holding entity for primary residences and for seniors. Just something to think about.
Specialist · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2012 · 582 posts · 353 votes
13y
Thanks for sharing Blair, this is good information to know about. I've also been doing mailings for years using similar list criteria to yours and my results have also been quite good (although I usually get a higher rate of voicemails vs. hangups). Direct mail really does work in this business, especially if you're working with current information and targeting your lists appropriately.
Probably my favorite thing about this approach is that it affords me the ability to avoid fighting with other investors over a deal - because the typical prospects who respond to my mailings don't even have their property listed (which gives me a tremendous advantage in the negotiation process - because nobody else knows that the property is "For Sale").
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
13y
Thanks for sharing. Have you gotten any deals from these mailings? Response rates are great but in the end are only as good as the deal/profit rates.
I'm curious why so many investors avoid trust owned properties in their list criteria. I've bought from plenty of trusts (and several corps for that matter). While arranging and setting up a trust shows some rudimentary estate planning, it certainly doesn't eliminate anyone from being or becoming a motivated seller. In some areas, the bulk of properties that would end up on an "inherited" list will be properties that transfer the property from the trust to a beneficiary/heir named in the trust. Trusts are becoming a customary holding entity for primary residences and for seniors. Just something to think about.
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
13y
Originally posted by Michael Spencer:
Hi Blair,
Do you know your Call-In to Deal Ratio? Also, where do you purchase your postcards?
I'll tell you, I've found this to be much harder to track than one would think - primarily because some deals come from past mailings (ones I didn't track), and some come from other sources.
To give a rough estimate though, we typically shoot for about 30 voicemails to 1 deal. It varies a bit from there, though, because, for instance, sometimes we'll get someone to call in and they have multiple houses they want to get rid of. So we'll get more than one deal out of that one prospect, which makes this deal-to-response ratio go way up of course.
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
13y
Originally posted by Michael Spencer:
Also, where do you purchase your postcards?
Forgot to answer your 2nd question...
Postcards printers are usually pretty easy to find. I know Michael Quarles on here looks like he has a good product, even if you have to buy in bulk. I have not used his service, though.
I used to use an online printing company, kind of like vistaprint but a step up in print quality, to print the full color with UV coating, etc etc. I did not get a good response rate from the "nice" professional looking cards. Low tech is best I've found.
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
13y
Originally posted by Seth Williams:
Probably my favorite thing about this approach is that it affords me the ability to avoid fighting with other investors over a deal - because the typical prospects who respond to my mailings don't even have their property listed (which gives me a tremendous advantage in the negotiation process - because nobody else knows that the property is "For Sale").
Seth, I couldn't have said it better myself! I usually tell people: Our marketing is “interruptive” and “proactive” instead of passive and reactive. This means we’re contacting this motivated seller before he has time to go online and search “sell my house fast”. You get the deal before his wife even knows he’s selling.
I once found a deal that I wholesaled to an investor in NC, the house was owned by a family that attended the same church as this investor, and the homeowners called ME from my postcard before they called him, even though they knew he was a full-time homebuyer. It was wild.
I firmly believe that the higher the number of people who know about a deal, the worse a deal it will usually end up being. So if you're the only buyer in sight, that gives you a very strong negotiating position. That's why I don't put much stock in internet leads that get sold and resold and resold. I think the direct mail leads are best. But I'm biased I suppose.
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
13y
Originally posted by K. Marie Poe:
Thanks for sharing. Have you gotten any deals from these mailings?
I'm curious why so many investors avoid trust owned properties in their list criteria. I've bought from plenty of trusts (and several corps for that matter). While arranging and setting up a trust shows some rudimentary estate planning, it certainly doesn't eliminate anyone from being or becoming a motivated seller. In some areas, the bulk of properties that would end up on an "inherited" list will be properties that transfer the property from the trust to a beneficiary/heir named in the trust. Trusts are becoming a customary holding entity for primary residences and for seniors. Just something to think about.
To your first question, I just posted a minute ago, we shoot for about 1 deal out of 30 voicemails, but it fluctuates a lot.
To your 2nd point, I agree with you there. I don't mail to trusts, though, simply because it usually complicates the deal. As a wholesaler, I want the simplest/fastest deal possible to pass off to my investors.
And as long as people like me believe what I believe about it, it puts people like you in a better position with the trustee-owned because there are fewer people mailing. :-)
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
13y
Originally posted by Seth Williams:
Thanks for sharing Blair, this is good information to know about.
By the way, Seth, I just read your story on your About page on your website - we have a very similar story. And it all starts with Rich Dad Poor Dad, doesn't it? :-)
Orlando, FL · Member since 2012 · 113 posts · 26 votes
13y
I have been sending postcards to 1000 Absentee Owners with specific criteria for 6 months. My response rate is less than 1%. During the past two months, I have received zero calls. Very disappointing.
I started by sending a simple yellow postcard - which resulted in a deal. Since that time, I went with Postcardmania for a slick looking card but have received nothing.
Orlando, FL · Member since 2012 · 113 posts · 26 votes
13y
@samantha M. I was sending to the same 1000 owners each month. That was the list from Listsource that fit my criteria: out-of-state, 51%> equity, SFR, $70k-180k range.
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
13y
Originally posted by Kelly P.:
I have been sending postcards to 1000 Absentee Owners with specific criteria for 6 months. My response rate is less than 1%. During the past two months, I have received zero calls. Very disappointing.
I started by sending a simple yellow postcard - which resulted in a deal. Since that time, I went with Postcardmania for a slick looking card but have received nothing.
What type of Postcards do you send?
Hi Kelly,
I know how you feel - I used to send the slick looking cards and got the dismal response rates like you're experiencing now. I read up on it more and more, and some people will tell you to just keep mailing those slick cards over a long period of time and eventually you will get people to start calling you.
BUT, if you read from the highly successful direct-response marketers out there (e.g. Dan Kennedy), you'll learn that just because you send the same card over and over doesn't mean the response rate to THAT card is going to increase. In other words, if a card doesn't generate a good response the first time, it's not necessarily going to improve just because you mail it again.
This does not take into account the timing factor, though - where you want to stay in front of the prospect repeatedly in order to be there when he's ready to sell. But, this timing factor, in my opinion, in the grand scheme of things is small compared to the factors of having a really strong offer, call to action, a good story, etc.
I send little yellow postcards. They are full of small-font text. They are personalized with the recipient's name and the address of their absentee-owned property.
The problem with slick cards is that they look like all the other commercial junk mail they get. But, you send a crappy, low-tech yellow postcard, and it stands out. It's not pretty, but they do not necessarily care about it being pretty. If they want to sell, they want to sell.
If I were you, I would not waste anymore of your marketing dollars on the slick cards.
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
13y
Originally posted by Kelly P.:
@samantha M. I was sending to the same 1000 owners each month. That was the list from Listsource that fit my criteria: out-of-state, 51%> equity, SFR, $70k-180k range.
Hey Kelly,
If you're doing repeat mailings, try to wait at least 6 weeks between mailings. Also, regarding your list, of course I don't know your specific investing goals and reasons for your property criteria, but you might do well to drop the equity and value criteria.
Listsource is good, but I do not believe their system truly knows the value of a home very accurately. And if they do not really know the value, they can't really sort the leads by home value and equity very accurately.
Point being, you might try loosening your criteria by dropping the 51%> equity, and the value range. It will probably give you more houses to mail to, which is a good thing.
Orlando, FL · Member since 2012 · 113 posts · 26 votes
13y
Blair - I am concentrating on wholesaling. I specified equity in order to find properties where owners have room to negotiate.
After 6 months of disappointing responses with postcards I switched to yellow letters. My first mailing dropped last week and I received a 4.5% response rate; however most calls were not motivated ("if its the right price I might sell"). It's a numbers game so possibly my follow-up letters will prompt better qualified responses.
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
13y
Originally posted by Kelly P.:
Blair - I am concentrating on wholesaling. I specified equity in order to find properties where owners have room to negotiate.
Yes - that's a good idea to try to find owners who have room to negotiate, what I was saying, though, is that list providers couldn't possibly be very accurate in determining equity (unless you simply specify free & clear) because they can't accurately determine home value. But this is just my opinion, I have no data to back this up.
Originally posted by Kelly P.:
After 6 months of disappointing responses with postcards I switched to yellow letters. My first mailing dropped last week and I received a 4.5% response rate; however most calls were not motivated ("if its the right price I might sell"). It's a numbers game so possibly my follow-up letters will prompt better qualified responses.
You could be right! Nothing to do but test it out. Go for it!
Originally posted by Kelly P.:
Who do you use for your lists?
I have used Listsource in the past (as you said you've used) - I thought it did the job quite well. I'd stick with that if I were you.
Orlando, FL · Member since 2012 · 113 posts · 26 votes
13y
Blair H. - the only negative I have about Listsource is the percentage of returned mail. On my recent yellow letter mailer, 11% were returned as undeliverable. Have you had that experience?
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
13y
Originally posted by Kelly P.:
Blair H. - the only negative I have about Listsource is the percentage of returned mail. On my recent yellow letter mailer, 11% were returned as undeliverable. Have you had that experience?
I haven't experienced too much of that with Listsource, however, I do believe it is different for different areas. For example, I purchased a list of Absentee Owners with Last Market Sale Date within the last 6 months in Atlanta, and I think something like 26% of the names were in fact NOT absentee owners.
The problem was that on the property record, whoever entered the data originally, put the mailing address as, for example, "123 Main St.", and then for the property address they put "123 Main Street". Just a different way to write it, or maybe they misspelled the street name. To a human, it reads as the same address, but to a database system computer it is technically a "different" address. So when the computer sees that the mailing address and the property address are different, it marks that entry as "absentee owned". Which of course is not the case.
So I sorted out all those erroneously marked Absentee Owners, there were maybe 216 of them. At $.185 per name, I essentially "wasted" about $40 on those bad names. Fortunately I noticed this before mailing to all of them, or I would have had some very bad response rates.
I considered calling Listsource for a refund, but in the end decided it wasn't really worth my time to go after them for $40. Too many other productive things to do. And in the big picture, it's not that big of a deal and I'd rather focus on the things that matter.
To that end, if/when I get a high undeliverable rate like you've mentioned, I just keep it moving and get to work on improving other more important factors like response rate, and revenue/profit.
Wholesaler · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
13y
Originally posted by Karen M.:
Blair H. How are you associated with Dealbot, the pay per response service?
ohhhhhhhhhh, okay I get it. I thought 10% was pretty fishy for a postcard response. Good eye Karen M.!
Originally posted by Blair H.:
Seth, I couldn't have said it better myself! I usually tell people: Our marketing is “interruptive” and “proactive” instead of passive and reactive. This means we’re contacting this motivated seller before he has time to go online and search “sell my house fast”. You get the deal before his wife even knows he’s selling.
That's straight copy direct from the website disguised as a forum response.
Hey Blair, if you're going to market your product on this site, at least be straight up about it, and do it in the proper forum. This kind of sneaky schilling stuff just mostly irritates the majority of people on BP
Real Estate Entrepreneur · Winston-Salem, NC · Member since 2008 · 101 posts · 40 votes
13y
Originally posted by Jerry Puckett:
Hey Blair, if you're going to market your product on this site, at least be straight up about it, and do it in the proper forum. This kind of sneaky schilling stuff just mostly irritates the majority of people on BP
Hey Jerry,
Thanks for your input. I gotta say, sometimes I feel like I can't get anything right on here. I wasn't aware I was "marketing my product" on this thread. I mean, I never even mentioned the name of the company or that I even do direct mail for other people. Instead, I gave props to Michael Quarles' "competing company", shared actual data collected from spending a lot of money on mailings so that whoever reads this can learn from it, and gave more tips and info when asked, etc etc.
When I approached Josh Dorkin about paying for advertising on the website, this was his response:
Blair -
We're not looking for any partnerships in your space at the moment. If you are interested, we can provide you with our Media Kit and promo materials. ***Otherwise, we've found that those companies that engage and help our members with their questions in areas where you have expertise, tend to get a good amount of business as a result from simply participating on our forums.***
NOTE: We've just launched the ability to create an interactive company profile on our platform at http://www.biggerpockets.com/companies -- we definitely recommend you guys get an account set up there in addition to any personal accounts your staff might set up on the site.
Regards,
Joshua Dorkin
Founder & CEO | BiggerPockets, Inc.
(I added the stars "***" to highlight the pertinent part of his message.)
So I took his suggestion, I looked in the forums at what was popular reading, and found this thread with a lot of views:
http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/93/topics/79088-early-results-on-yellow-letter-mailing
So I thought to myself, "wow, looks like people appreciate reading about other peoples' actual results from mailings, I'll post mine because I have a lot of experience in it and maybe someone can benefit from my data." So I posted. Now I get the impression you think I was lying about it.
I looked at what Michael Quarles does, what Gary Boomershine has done, and I used their posts as guidelines because it seemed nobody has a problem with what they do on here. Am I doing something different or wrong?
I also see that you offer marketing services for other investors as well. Am I doing something different than what you do in your posts?
I know it's hard to tell through the written word, but I'm being sincere here when I ask all these questions. I really would like your input on how to do this right. I thought I was doing it right, but your post makes me think otherwise, and generally feel like a big heel right now.
I'd appreciate any input from anyone on here. What did I do wrong? What should I have done instead? What can I do in the future? Should I not provide data on mailings? Should I not chime in when I have expertise to offer? Should I not try to get involved in forum threads relating to a topic in which I am well versed? Sometimes it's very frustrating here.
BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
13y
Hey Blair -
As for your concerns, our policies are pretty simple . . .
1) DISCLOSE -- If you work for a company, disclose it. If you're promoting your company, do it in the Marketplace. Doing so elsewhere is not okay.
2) Be Helpful - If you want to help in a thread in an area where you have expertise, do so. By having a signature, people who see your responses will be able to choose to visit your site or contact you if interested. Otherwise, putting any kind of plug for your company or site is a problem --> see #1
You're certainly ok talking about things you know about, which is what you appear to be doing in this thread. I'm not certain what happened here, but I'm not seeing any problems in the thread unless I missed it.
The thing is not to post a thread that's just designed to get people to ask: how can I get that? Where do I buy it? etc. Essentially -- a thread that is a lead in to an ad needs to be placed in the Marketplace like any other ad. I'm guessing that is what the others think you've done here.
So . . . how do we get this discussion back on course to something fruitful?
BTW - To post in the Marketplace, you need a PRO or PRO Basic Account - http://www.biggerpockets.com/pro --> PRO accounts are great ways to get visibility for yourself and you get great add ons like your company's logo in your signature, SMS alerts for keywords, data on who visits your profile, and more.