BRRRR, Buy & Hold the Way to Go

Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes

I’m looking for some clarity from experienced investors on strategy and what’s actually working in today’s market.

I’ve done a few deals over the past couple years (mix of experiences, including some losses), and I’m now trying to reset and move forward in a more sustainable way. I've done fix & flips mostly along with landlording previously on long term hold (how I got in the game).

I’m trying to clearly understand the difference between:

BRRRR (buy, rehab, rent, refinance, repeat)
Long-term buy & hold (“doors” — just acquiring and holding rentals over time)

From what I'm seeing, a lot of investors say they're "buying doors," but in reality it sounds like they're still refinancing and recycling capital, which feels very similar to BRRRR.

So my questions are:

• When you’re scaling with BRRRR, is your wealth primarily coming from equity growth + portfolio size vs actual cash flow?
• How often are investors actually able to pull MOST or ALL of their capital back out on a refinance in today’s market?
• Realistically, how much liquidity do you actually need to start BRRRR right now? Is the “$5K in and recycle” idea real, or is that only possible with perfect deals / partnerships?
• For those actively doing BRRRR — are you typically leaving money in deals more often than not?

I’m also trying to decide on market focus.

I have experience and some connections in DFW, but I’ve also been exploring Midwest markets (specifically Ohio) due to lower price points and potential rent ratios.

My concern with Ohio is:
• starting from scratch with a team
• being remote
• execution risk

Versus DFW:
• higher prices
• tighter margins
• but stronger familiarity and existing relationships

For those who’ve faced this choice:

Would you stay in a market where you already have experience and a network, even if margins are tighter, or move to a lower-cost market and rebuild from scratch?

Appreciate any insight — especially from those actively doing deals in the current market (not just theoretical strategy).

4 Reply

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Bryce Fairburn

Lender · Lake City, MI · Member since 2019 · 118 posts · 42 votes

5mo

Hey Kay

My experience with the BRRRR method has been equity growth. Usually when I do the refinance part of the steps I end up reducing my single property cash-flow as a result of maximizing the amount of capital I can access. This has risks attached to it that are important to consider.

To pull most all boils down to how good was the purchase and how accurate was the rehab and ARV's on the deal? I have been considering leaving some capital in the deal as a solid base hit, pulling all out as a double/triple, and then pulling more then I started with as a homerun.
The $5K is a great marketing tool. the less money in requires more work on the deal structure/partnership/creativity portion. I work with lenders who will finance 100% of the reno costs on the correct deal, so there is possibility of lower amount of entry. However $5k is tough solo.

I have seen investors have great success in the Midwest for the following reasons
- lower cost of entry in comparison to rental rates
- Significant weather events are not as destructive as other parts of the country (snow storms vs hurricanes..etc)
- stable appreciation, not the big swings like the popular locations
- construction costs are typically lower then some other places.

I would be happy to help run numbers with you as you look at deals!
Bryce

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Remington LymanBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
5mo
Quote from @Kay Sam:
I’m looking for some clarity from experienced investors on strategy and what’s actually working in today’s market.

I’ve done a few deals over the past couple years (mix of experiences, including some losses), and I’m now trying to reset and move forward in a more sustainable way. I've done fix & flips mostly along with landlording previously on long term hold (how I got in the game).

I’m trying to clearly understand the difference between:

BRRRR (buy, rehab, rent, refinance, repeat)
Long-term buy & hold (“doors” — just acquiring and holding rentals over time)

From what I'm seeing, a lot of investors say they're "buying doors," but in reality it sounds like they're still refinancing and recycling capital, which feels very similar to BRRRR.

So my questions are:

• When you’re scaling with BRRRR, is your wealth primarily coming from equity growth + portfolio size vs actual cash flow?
• How often are investors actually able to pull MOST or ALL of their capital back out on a refinance in today’s market?
• Realistically, how much liquidity do you actually need to start BRRRR right now? Is the “$5K in and recycle” idea real, or is that only possible with perfect deals / partnerships?
• For those actively doing BRRRR — are you typically leaving money in deals more often than not?

I’m also trying to decide on market focus.

I have experience and some connections in DFW, but I’ve also been exploring Midwest markets (specifically Ohio) due to lower price points and potential rent ratios.

My concern with Ohio is:
• starting from scratch with a team
• being remote
• execution risk

Versus DFW:
• higher prices
• tighter margins
• but stronger familiarity and existing relationships

For those who’ve faced this choice:

Would you stay in a market where you already have experience and a network, even if margins are tighter, or move to a lower-cost market and rebuild from scratch?

Appreciate any insight — especially from those actively doing deals in the current market (not just theoretical strategy).
Equity growth for me, but you need to have a high-earning job to support that. Also tax strategies to allow me to preserve my wealth
[email protected]614-541-8475 Podcast Guest on Show My Job Laid Me Off, So I Replaced My Salary with Rentals
Reafco512 Reviews
Website View Page
1 Reply
Bryce Fairburn
Lender · Lake City, MI · Member since 2019 · 118 posts · 42 votes
5mo
Hey Kay

My experience with the BRRRR method has been equity growth. Usually when I do the refinance part of the steps I end up reducing my single property cash-flow as a result of maximizing the amount of capital I can access. This has risks attached to it that are important to consider.
To pull most all boils down to how good was the purchase and how accurate was the rehab and ARV's on the deal? I have been considering leaving some capital in the deal as a solid base hit, pulling all out as a double/triple, and then pulling more then I started with as a homerun.
The $5K is a great marketing tool. the less money in requires more work on the deal structure/partnership/creativity portion. I work with lenders who will finance 100% of the reno costs on the correct deal, so there is possibility of lower amount of entry. However $5k is tough solo.

I have seen investors have great success in the Midwest for the following reasons
- lower cost of entry in comparison to rental rates
- Significant weather events are not as destructive as other parts of the country (snow storms vs hurricanes..etc)
- stable appreciation, not the big swings like the popular locations
- construction costs are typically lower then some other places.

I would be happy to help run numbers with you as you look at deals!
Bryce
2 Reply
- Kay Sam
  OP
  Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Bryce Fairburn:
  
  Hey Kay
  
  My experience with the BRRRR method has been equity growth. Usually when I do the refinance part of the steps I end up reducing my single property cash-flow as a result of maximizing the amount of capital I can access. This has risks attached to it that are important to consider.
  To pull most all boils down to how good was the purchase and how accurate was the rehab and ARV's on the deal? I have been considering leaving some capital in the deal as a solid base hit, pulling all out as a double/triple, and then pulling more then I started with as a homerun.
  The $5K is a great marketing tool. the less money in requires more work on the deal structure/partnership/creativity portion. I work with lenders who will finance 100% of the reno costs on the correct deal, so there is possibility of lower amount of entry. However $5k is tough solo.
  
  I have seen investors have great success in the Midwest for the following reasons
  - lower cost of entry in comparison to rental rates
  - Significant weather events are not as destructive as other parts of the country (snow storms vs hurricanes..etc)
  - stable appreciation, not the big swings like the popular locations
  - construction costs are typically lower then some other places.
  
  I would be happy to help run numbers with you as you look at deals!
  Bryce
  How many properties have you done with the BRRRR strategy? What kind of growth are you seeing on numbers? What I'm thinking to do is the BRRRR strategy, however, I wouldn't want to hold it for years and years. I'm thinking to keep for 1-2 years THEN sell hoping that ARV is higher and I can make money back.
  Have you done that at all?
  0 Reply
- Arman AhmedPro Member
  Real Estate Agent · Columbus Cleveland Dayton, OH · Member since 2024 · 2k+ posts · 939 votes
  5mo
  @Kay Sam
  
  You're not off, BRRRR vs buy and hold is really just a spectrum of how hard you're pushing to recycle capital, and right now most investors are leaving some money in deals unless they bought really deep. The "all cash out" deals still exist, but they're not the norm, and the $5K-in stuff is usually relationship-driven or off-market, not something to build a business on. Wealth tends to come from a mix of equity growth and stacking doors, but only if the deals still cash flow enough to hold comfortably. On market choice, this is where Midwest markets like Ohio start to make more sense for a reset. You get better entry prices, stronger rent ratios, and more margin for error, which matters after taking losses. Yes, you're rebuilding your team, but tighter markets like DFW can punish even experienced investors right now, so sometimes starting fresh in a more forgiving market is actually the lower-risk move long term.
  [email protected]614-418-6081
  0 Reply
- Kay Sam
  OP
  Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Arman Ahmed:
  
  @Kay Sam
  
  You're not off, BRRRR vs buy and hold is really just a spectrum of how hard you're pushing to recycle capital, and right now most investors are leaving some money in deals unless they bought really deep. The "all cash out" deals still exist, but they're not the norm, and the $5K-in stuff is usually relationship-driven or off-market, not something to build a business on. Wealth tends to come from a mix of equity growth and stacking doors, but only if the deals still cash flow enough to hold comfortably. On market choice, this is where Midwest markets like Ohio start to make more sense for a reset. You get better entry prices, stronger rent ratios, and more margin for error, which matters after taking losses. Yes, you're rebuilding your team, but tighter markets like DFW can punish even experienced investors right now, so sometimes starting fresh in a more forgiving market is actually the lower-risk move long term.
  
  Arman this has been a big decision regarding markets and whether I stay in the DFW area. I started investing in IL and then FL. Lost the most in DFW. So now nothing seems safe. Garland property is under contract for the 3rd TIME so I'm holding my breath that it actually closes.
  While I've learned all the things to say "no," to regarding a property, I'm wondering what else I'm missing. The margins have been tight (I've discovered), market softening and long DOM have been unexpected. I will be reviewing several deals to try and understand what makes sense.
  0 Reply
- Bryce Fairburn
  Lender · Lake City, MI · Member since 2019 · 118 posts · 42 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Kay Sam:
  
  Quote from @Bryce Fairburn:
  
  Hey Kay
  
  My experience with the BRRRR method has been equity growth. Usually when I do the refinance part of the steps I end up reducing my single property cash-flow as a result of maximizing the amount of capital I can access. This has risks attached to it that are important to consider.
  To pull most all boils down to how good was the purchase and how accurate was the rehab and ARV's on the deal? I have been considering leaving some capital in the deal as a solid base hit, pulling all out as a double/triple, and then pulling more then I started with as a homerun.
  The $5K is a great marketing tool. the less money in requires more work on the deal structure/partnership/creativity portion. I work with lenders who will finance 100% of the reno costs on the correct deal, so there is possibility of lower amount of entry. However $5k is tough solo.
  
  I have seen investors have great success in the Midwest for the following reasons
  - lower cost of entry in comparison to rental rates
  - Significant weather events are not as destructive as other parts of the country (snow storms vs hurricanes..etc)
  - stable appreciation, not the big swings like the popular locations
  - construction costs are typically lower then some other places.
  
  I would be happy to help run numbers with you as you look at deals!
  Bryce
  How many properties have you done with the BRRRR strategy? What kind of growth are you seeing on numbers? What I'm thinking to do is the BRRRR strategy, however, I wouldn't want to hold it for years and years. I'm thinking to keep for 1-2 years THEN sell hoping that ARV is higher and I can make money back.
  Have you done that at all?
  
  I ended up doing 5 of them coming out of COVID. I started seeing the margins getting thinner where I was doing it, so I switched my strategy over to focusing on my Medium term rentals at the moment.
  
  to hold for 1-2 years is more of a slower brrrr strategy. This is definitly do-able, just have to have good numbers and a plan in place to execute it well!
  
  Do you have a location in mind? and a price point you want to be in for this?
  
  Bryce
  0 Reply
- Kay Sam
  OP
  Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Bryce Fairburn:
  
  Quote from @Kay Sam:
  
  Quote from @Bryce Fairburn:
  
  Hey Kay
  
  My experience with the BRRRR method has been equity growth. Usually when I do the refinance part of the steps I end up reducing my single property cash-flow as a result of maximizing the amount of capital I can access. This has risks attached to it that are important to consider.
  To pull most all boils down to how good was the purchase and how accurate was the rehab and ARV's on the deal? I have been considering leaving some capital in the deal as a solid base hit, pulling all out as a double/triple, and then pulling more then I started with as a homerun.
  The $5K is a great marketing tool. the less money in requires more work on the deal structure/partnership/creativity portion. I work with lenders who will finance 100% of the reno costs on the correct deal, so there is possibility of lower amount of entry. However $5k is tough solo.
  
  I have seen investors have great success in the Midwest for the following reasons
  - lower cost of entry in comparison to rental rates
  - Significant weather events are not as destructive as other parts of the country (snow storms vs hurricanes..etc)
  - stable appreciation, not the big swings like the popular locations
  - construction costs are typically lower then some other places.
  
  I would be happy to help run numbers with you as you look at deals!
  Bryce
  How many properties have you done with the BRRRR strategy? What kind of growth are you seeing on numbers? What I'm thinking to do is the BRRRR strategy, however, I wouldn't want to hold it for years and years. I'm thinking to keep for 1-2 years THEN sell hoping that ARV is higher and I can make money back.
  Have you done that at all?
  
  I ended up doing 5 of them coming out of COVID. I started seeing the margins getting thinner where I was doing it, so I switched my strategy over to focusing on my Medium term rentals at the moment.
  
  to hold for 1-2 years is more of a slower brrrr strategy. This is definitly do-able, just have to have good numbers and a plan in place to execute it well!
  
  Do you have a location in mind? and a price point you want to be in for this?
  
  Bryce
  
  I'm thinking between Texas (current DFW), IL or Ohio. I have no experience in Ohio at all, however trying to decide where's the best area for me to zone in on to rebuild. I am definitely not sure if BRRRR is the right way to go or traditional buy and hold (how I got into the game in the begining).
  0 Reply
Nicholas L.Pro Member
Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
5mo
@Kay Sam
1. all equity. my BRRRR's break even after the refinance.
2. i am trying to improve on each one. i haven't been able to leave $0 in a deal when factoring in holding costs, closing costs, etc.
3. not sure what you're asking here but short answer would be - a lot, you should not invest in real estate at all if you're not well capitalized.
4. yes.
5. experience and network.
2 Reply
- Kay Sam
  OP
  Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Nicholas L.:
  
  @Kay Sam
  1. all equity. my BRRRR's break even after the refinance.
  2. i am trying to improve on each one. i haven't been able to leave $0 in a deal when factoring in holding costs, closing costs, etc.
  3. not sure what you're asking here but short answer would be - a lot, you should not invest in real estate at all if you're not well capitalized.
  4. yes.
  5. experience and network.
  
  Hi! What about rolling closing costs into the loan so that it's not as much $ up front? How has your experience been in Ohio- what part? Although it's possible to build another team, it's a learning curve for sure.
  After losing $50k in flips over the last two years, I'm trying to rebuild my liquidity and do something not as volatile.
  0 Reply
- Dan H.Pro Member
  Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Kay Sam:
  
  Quote from @Nicholas L.:
  
  @Kay Sam
  1. all equity. my BRRRR's break even after the refinance.
  2. i am trying to improve on each one. i haven't been able to leave $0 in a deal when factoring in holding costs, closing costs, etc.
  3. not sure what you're asking here but short answer would be - a lot, you should not invest in real estate at all if you're not well capitalized.
  4. yes.
  5. experience and network.
  
  Hi! What about rolling closing costs into the loan so that it's not as much $ up front? How has your experience been in Ohio- what part? Although it's possible to build another team, it's a learning curve for sure.
  After losing $50k in flips over the last two years, I'm trying to rebuild my liquidity and do something not as volatile.
  
  I question if you cannot flip what makes you confident you can do a brrrr or especially an OOS BRRRR.
  I do not understand doing value adds or especially brrrrs in low cost markets.
  On of my last value adds I added a half bathroom out of existing space in a high psf market ($2k psf ARV). The comps showed this half bathroom added $50k of value. How much value would a half bathroom added to existing space in an average Ohio market.
  Now apply the same logic to an ideal BRRRR. My definition of an ideal brrrr is that you are able to extract all of the invested capital so that at the end of the brrrr you have the asset without any money invested. If you can pull off the ideal brrrr why would you care about the acquisition cost because it cost you nothing.
  Next question is would you rather have a $1m asset without any money invested or a $209k asset without having any money invested.
  I have zero confidence that if you cannot pull off a flip in a familiar market with existing relationships that you can pull off an OOS brrrr. When I do a large rehab, I am at the property virtually every day. I do this even though I have done quite a few successful rehabs. This implies I strongly recommend you do your first brrrr in the market you are familiar with (DFW) rather than an OOS market that you have no contacts,
  Good luck
  1 Reply
- Kay Sam
  OP
  Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Dan H.:
  
  Quote from @Kay Sam:
  
  Quote from @Nicholas L.:
  
  @Kay Sam
  1. all equity. my BRRRR's break even after the refinance.
  2. i am trying to improve on each one. i haven't been able to leave $0 in a deal when factoring in holding costs, closing costs, etc.
  3. not sure what you're asking here but short answer would be - a lot, you should not invest in real estate at all if you're not well capitalized.
  4. yes.
  5. experience and network.
  
  Hi! What about rolling closing costs into the loan so that it's not as much $ up front? How has your experience been in Ohio- what part? Although it's possible to build another team, it's a learning curve for sure.
  After losing $50k in flips over the last two years, I'm trying to rebuild my liquidity and do something not as volatile.
  
  I question if you cannot flip what makes you confident you can do a brrrr or especially an OOS BRRRR.
  I do not understand doing value adds or especially brrrrs in low cost markets.
  On of my last value adds I added a half bathroom out of existing space in a high psf market ($2k psf ARV). The comps showed this half bathroom added $50k of value. How much value would a half bathroom added to existing space in an average Ohio market.
  Now apply the same logic to an ideal BRRRR. My definition of an ideal brrrr is that you are able to extract all of the invested capital so that at the end of the brrrr you have the asset without any money invested. If you can pull off the ideal brrrr why would you care about the acquisition cost because it cost you nothing.
  Next question is would you rather have a $1m asset without any money invested or a $209k asset without having any money invested.
  I have zero confidence that if you cannot pull off a flip in a familiar market with existing relationships that you can pull off an OOS brrrr. When I do a large rehab, I am at the property virtually every day. I do this even though I have done quite a few successful rehabs. This implies I strongly recommend you do your first brrrr in the market you are familiar with (DFW) rather than an OOS market that you have no contacts,
  Good luck
  
  Dan I appreciate you feedback. It seems that everything I've learned regarding what a buybox needs to have, having more conservative ARVs and really looking at the spread is something I've missed in the beginning. It's also been smaller things that didn't occur to me: layout/functional space, solar panels, no garage & foundation repairs- that has burned me. Not much feedback on the remodel- just the above.  These details noted caused the house to sit- now I know what to avoid and what works.
  Nevertheless, to learn all of this I've paid for it. At this point I'd like to recoup in the best and least volatile way possible. I've been thinking about whole-tail and not doing as big of rehabs to flip properties if I can find it.
  Adding the value to the property for the $50K bathroom was a good idea. How long did it take you to learn HOW to see these details in RE deals? I like the analogy of $209K home vs $1m; however I'd have to build up to that.  What market are you in and what area of RE do you focus on?
  0 Reply
- Dan H.Pro Member
  Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Kay Sam:
  
  Quote from @Dan H.:
  
  Quote from @Kay Sam:
  
  Quote from @Nicholas L.:
  
  @Kay Sam
  1. all equity. my BRRRR's break even after the refinance.
  2. i am trying to improve on each one. i haven't been able to leave $0 in a deal when factoring in holding costs, closing costs, etc.
  3. not sure what you're asking here but short answer would be - a lot, you should not invest in real estate at all if you're not well capitalized.
  4. yes.
  5. experience and network.
  
  Hi! What about rolling closing costs into the loan so that it's not as much $ up front? How has your experience been in Ohio- what part? Although it's possible to build another team, it's a learning curve for sure.
  After losing $50k in flips over the last two years, I'm trying to rebuild my liquidity and do something not as volatile.
  
  I question if you cannot flip what makes you confident you can do a brrrr or especially an OOS BRRRR.
  I do not understand doing value adds or especially brrrrs in low cost markets.
  On of my last value adds I added a half bathroom out of existing space in a high psf market ($2k psf ARV). The comps showed this half bathroom added $50k of value. How much value would a half bathroom added to existing space in an average Ohio market.
  Now apply the same logic to an ideal BRRRR. My definition of an ideal brrrr is that you are able to extract all of the invested capital so that at the end of the brrrr you have the asset without any money invested. If you can pull off the ideal brrrr why would you care about the acquisition cost because it cost you nothing.
  Next question is would you rather have a $1m asset without any money invested or a $209k asset without having any money invested.
  I have zero confidence that if you cannot pull off a flip in a familiar market with existing relationships that you can pull off an OOS brrrr. When I do a large rehab, I am at the property virtually every day. I do this even though I have done quite a few successful rehabs. This implies I strongly recommend you do your first brrrr in the market you are familiar with (DFW) rather than an OOS market that you have no contacts,
  Good luck
  
  Dan I appreciate you feedback. It seems that everything I've learned regarding what a buybox needs to have, having more conservative ARVs and really looking at the spread is something I've missed in the beginning. It's also been smaller things that didn't occur to me: layout/functional space, solar panels, no garage & foundation repairs- that has burned me. Not much feedback on the remodel- just the above.  These details noted caused the house to sit- now I know what to avoid and what works.
  Nevertheless, to learn all of this I've paid for it. At this point I'd like to recoup in the best and least volatile way possible. I've been thinking about whole-tail and not doing as big of rehabs to flip properties if I can find it.
  Adding the value to the property for the $50K bathroom was a good idea. How long did it take you to learn HOW to see these details in RE deals? I like the analogy of $209K home vs $1m; however I'd have to build up to that.  What market are you in and what area of RE do you focus on?
  >I like the analogy of $209K home vs $1m
  
  The $209k was a typo as I meant $200k, but the exact number is not relevant. The relevant aspect is the gap in value of a property obtained with the only cost being sweat equity.
  >How long did it take you to learn HOW to see these details in RE deals?
  IMO the learning never stop but it does slow down. I do not have clear start dates but if you go back to my first efforts related to RE, I started maybe before I was a teen (about the time I became a teen). I believe I have in my profile my family friend that was an estate lawyer and let us loose on his units. He once was trustee on an entire town east of San Diego. I was in college so did not work that effort but my brother did.
  >What market are you in and what area of RE do you focus on?
  I am mostly in San Diego but most of my recent offers have not been in San Diego. I have made recent offers in the sierras and Emerald Coast.
  We have SFR to quad. We have LTRs and STRs. We are looking for a flip. Most of my recent offers have been on planned STRs. My current favorite ploy is sophisticated value adds. About 2 years ago my initial protege made ~$500k via a sophisticated value adds in a short time span. I have made more on a sophisticated value adds, but my timeline was a few years.
  By the way I used to be largely concentrated in brrrrs. I networked with various other local investors doing brrrrs. Virtually all of them pivoted post q2 2022 when the rates started increasing substantially. The issue with brrrrs currently is that in virtually all markets the property has negative cash flow (allocating for sustained costs) when refinanced at max LTV. Many of the local investors that use to concentrate on brrrr have shifted to flipping (the exact opposite transition as you are proposing). I have most interested in sophisticated value adds or STRs in special markets. Flipping is too much a job, stop flipping, stop earning.
  Good luck
  
  0 Reply
Kenneth GarrettPro Member
Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
5mo
@Kay Sam
I've completed approximately 25 BRRRR projects. A few I pulled all of my money out. Most had a little money stuck in, but was able to pull my money out within 12-18 months through cash flow. A couple took 3 years.
1-2 years is not enough time to have the property appreciate and that is way to speculative. Don’t count on appreciation. You can benefit from appreciation, but don’t count on it. It’s a bonus if anything. The market can change at anytime. Today’s market is pretty flat.
Buy at a good price with the ability to force value of the property. If I put in 30K, I need to get 45K of value back at a minimum. That’s a 50% markup for your effort. Some will want to double there money invested. 30K in 60K of value. Buy right and you’ll be fine. Buy wrong and you’ll get crushed.
Best of Luck.
1 Reply
- Kay Sam
  OP
  Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Kenneth Garrett:
  
  @Kay Sam
  I've completed approximately 25 BRRRR projects. A few I pulled all of my money out. Most had a little money stuck in, but was able to pull my money out within 12-18 months through cash flow. A couple took 3 years.
  1-2 years is not enough time to have the property appreciate and that is way to speculative. Don’t count on appreciation. You can benefit from appreciation, but don’t count on it. It’s a bonus if anything. The market can change at anytime. Today’s market is pretty flat.
  Buy at a good price with the ability to force value of the property. If I put in 30K, I need to get 45K of value back at a minimum. That’s a 50% markup for your effort. Some will want to double there money invested. 30K in 60K of value. Buy right and you’ll be fine. Buy wrong and you’ll get crushed.
  Best of Luck.
  
  That's where I've been crushed is "buying wrong." At this stage, 2 years into RE doing fix & flips (prior was landlording) I've lost a decent amount of $ so now I'm treading water. I'd like to recoup & not sure how. I thought holding a property for 1-2 years would be long enough- so something to consider for me.
  
  What would be the best way to recoup? I've considered smaller flips on a $15K-20K scale and basically whole-tail.....I've gone from $55K renovations to this now due to how much I've lost. Thank goodness for my day job.
  1 Reply
- Marcus Auerbach
  Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Kenneth Garrett:
  
  @Kay Sam
  I've completed approximately 25 BRRRR projects. A few I pulled all of my money out. Most had a little money stuck in, but was able to pull my money out within 12-18 months through cash flow. A couple took 3 years.
  1-2 years is not enough time to have the property appreciate and that is way to speculative. Don’t count on appreciation. You can benefit from appreciation, but don’t count on it. It’s a bonus if anything. The market can change at anytime. Today’s market is pretty flat.
  Buy at a good price with the ability to force value of the property. If I put in 30K, I need to get 45K of value back at a minimum. That’s a 50% markup for your effort. Some will want to double there money invested. 30K in 60K of value. Buy right and you’ll be fine. Buy wrong and you’ll get crushed.
  Best of Luck.
  
  As a mindset, I totally agree to not count on appreciation.
  But long term (think in decades) as a business model, appreciation is literally the name of the game. Here is why: IMO you need a full rehab every 30 years (roof to kitchen) and if you can't fund that out of appreciation, you'll better safe up all that cash flow.
  The good news is there has been no 10 year period in US history where home prices have not gone up. The long term average is about 6%. Most of that is built into our financial system and the dollar decline (aka inflation).
  0 Reply
Evan HoppleBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Columbus Cleveland Dayton, OH · Member since 2023 · 284 posts · 420 votes
5mo
@Kay Sam

Most BRRRR investors are leaving money in deals right now but still view it as a win. You're spreading your capital out to acquire more doors, and the built-in rehab phase addresses issues upfront. With a conventional or DSCR loan, any repairs needed after closing come straight out of pocket, which ties up even more cash on top of your down payment.

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Philip M.
Rental Property Investor · Garland · Member since 2018 · 40 posts · 22 votes
5mo
The less resources you have the more creative you will need to be. When we started we didn't have much money (and low paying jobs) so we did hard money to buy and renovate and we were still able to cash flow when it got refinanced and could pull out EVERYTHING that was put in. We could do this because we found deals and did not wait for them to show up. As time passed we did need to leave some money sometimes so that it would still cash flow to keep our debt to income ratio balanced for conventional loans. Cash flow in most cases should be about being able to maintain (pay for) the debt so you can get more properties. Also the cash flow account should be used to build up an emergency / repair fund. When it gets bigger, then think about using some of it for cost effective capital improvements on existing properties as well as for buying the next opportunity.
Over the years the properties will generally increase in value as well as the debt being paid down. After a bit of this you can refinance again and pull out more, to then buy more properties.
This should be treated like a business. The owner (you) gets paid last, if ever. If it's treated like a piggy bank it's harder to grow.
I would also suggest working a market that you know. It's harder to find good deals in areas that you are not intimately knowledgeable about. There are opportunities in DFW.
1 Reply
- Kay Sam
  OP
  Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Philip M.:
  
  The less resources you have the more creative you will need to be. When we started we didn't have much money (and low paying jobs) so we did hard money to buy and renovate and we were still able to cash flow when it got refinanced and could pull out EVERYTHING that was put in. We could do this because we found deals and did not wait for them to show up. As time passed we did need to leave some money sometimes so that it would still cash flow to keep our debt to income ratio balanced for conventional loans. Cash flow in most cases should be about being able to maintain (pay for) the debt so you can get more properties. Also the cash flow account should be used to build up an emergency / repair fund. When it gets bigger, then think about using some of it for cost effective capital improvements on existing properties as well as for buying the next opportunity.
  Over the years the properties will generally increase in value as well as the debt being paid down. After a bit of this you can refinance again and pull out more, to then buy more properties.
  This should be treated like a business. The owner (you) gets paid last, if ever. If it's treated like a piggy bank it's harder to grow.
  I would also suggest working a market that you know. It's harder to find good deals in areas that you are not intimately knowledgeable about. There are opportunities in DFW.
  
  Philip so many things have changed since I wrote this post! Under contract again & hit with a whammy. The house has to have sewer system replaced which has wiped out $20K from what I was scheduled to get back. At this point I don't see how I can rebuild at all. Or better yet how I can preserve what little capital I have & leverage lender's money. I need a mentor!
  1 Reply
- Philip M.
  Rental Property Investor · Garland · Member since 2018 · 40 posts · 22 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Kay Sam:
  
  Quote from @Philip M.:
  
  The less resources you have the more creative you will need to be. When we started we didn't have much money (and low paying jobs) so we did hard money to buy and renovate and we were still able to cash flow when it got refinanced and could pull out EVERYTHING that was put in. We could do this because we found deals and did not wait for them to show up. As time passed we did need to leave some money sometimes so that it would still cash flow to keep our debt to income ratio balanced for conventional loans. Cash flow in most cases should be about being able to maintain (pay for) the debt so you can get more properties. Also the cash flow account should be used to build up an emergency / repair fund. When it gets bigger, then think about using some of it for cost effective capital improvements on existing properties as well as for buying the next opportunity.
  Over the years the properties will generally increase in value as well as the debt being paid down. After a bit of this you can refinance again and pull out more, to then buy more properties.
  This should be treated like a business. The owner (you) gets paid last, if ever. If it's treated like a piggy bank it's harder to grow.
  I would also suggest working a market that you know. It's harder to find good deals in areas that you are not intimately knowledgeable about. There are opportunities in DFW.
  
  Philip so many things have changed since I wrote this post! Under contract again & hit with a whammy. The house has to have sewer system replaced which has wiped out $20K from what I was scheduled to get back. At this point I don't see how I can rebuild at all. Or better yet how I can preserve what little capital I have & leverage lender's money. I need a mentor!
  
  Hey Kay, I am a bit confused. How did we go from investment advice to having a plumbing problem? Also $20K, sounds like complete sewer line replacement under a slab, ouch. older home? Maybe pre 1970's. That would be very common. Always inspect older systems prior to purchase or build in the replacement expense in your numbers.
  Also just to clarify, what area are you located in?
  0 Reply
- Kay Sam
  OP
  Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Philip M.:
  
  Quote from @Kay Sam:
  
  Quote from @Philip M.:
  
  The less resources you have the more creative you will need to be. When we started we didn't have much money (and low paying jobs) so we did hard money to buy and renovate and we were still able to cash flow when it got refinanced and could pull out EVERYTHING that was put in. We could do this because we found deals and did not wait for them to show up. As time passed we did need to leave some money sometimes so that it would still cash flow to keep our debt to income ratio balanced for conventional loans. Cash flow in most cases should be about being able to maintain (pay for) the debt so you can get more properties. Also the cash flow account should be used to build up an emergency / repair fund. When it gets bigger, then think about using some of it for cost effective capital improvements on existing properties as well as for buying the next opportunity.
  Over the years the properties will generally increase in value as well as the debt being paid down. After a bit of this you can refinance again and pull out more, to then buy more properties.
  This should be treated like a business. The owner (you) gets paid last, if ever. If it's treated like a piggy bank it's harder to grow.
  I would also suggest working a market that you know. It's harder to find good deals in areas that you are not intimately knowledgeable about. There are opportunities in DFW.
  
  Philip so many things have changed since I wrote this post! Under contract again & hit with a whammy. The house has to have sewer system replaced which has wiped out $20K from what I was scheduled to get back. At this point I don't see how I can rebuild at all. Or better yet how I can preserve what little capital I have & leverage lender's money. I need a mentor!
  
  Hey Kay, I am a bit confused. How did we go from investment advice to having a plumbing problem? Also $20K, sounds like complete sewer line replacement under a slab, ouch. older home? Maybe pre 1970's. That would be very common. Always inspect older systems prior to purchase or build in the replacement expense in your numbers.
  Also just to clarify, what area are you located in?
  Illinois. When I wrote the post initially, a deal was on table allowing me to have more capital available. Then a few days later capital was chopped in half due to mentioned sewer issue w/ the same deal. Therefore I don't know if I'll be able to rebuild via BRRRR or buy and hold. Nevertheless; I appreciate your input.
  0 Reply
Marcus Auerbach
Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
5mo
@Kay Sam anything you do remote is much harder than local. You have operational inefficiencies on top of flat out cost premiums. If you want to put a number on how much it costs more remote, make it 20%.

I am not sure where home is for you, but DFW is a great market, it's not like you are in NY or SF. The grass only looks greener, because everyone is bragging about their success online and they stay quiet about their losses.

BRRRR has been the #1 strategy long before Brandon coined that term. But the only way to do a full recycle is by slum lording it a little. You are basically putting big ticket capex off until later. Anything that does not improve ARV. If you install new windows you are getting zero return on that investment. Same for new plumbing, a new electrical panel or for cutting that old leaning monster tree down. But that's how you can recycle all your money, even though you pay the price later. It took me about 5 years to gradually realize that and we shifted more and more to doing things the right way the first time. You learn that we you have a tenant turn over and spend 30k on a property that you thought you had already rehabbed.

Otherwise, not much to add to what @Nicholas L. and @Dan H. said.
0 Reply
- Kay Sam
  OP
  Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
  
  @Kay Sam anything you do remote is much harder than local. You have operational inefficiencies on top of flat out cost premiums. If you want to put a number on how much it costs more remote, make it 20%.
  
  I am not sure where home is for you, but DFW is a great market, it's not like you are in NY or SF. The grass only looks greener, because everyone is bragging about their success online and they stay quiet about their losses.
  
  BRRRR has been the #1 strategy long before Brandon coined that term. But the only way to do a full recycle is by slum lording it a little. You are basically putting big ticket capex off until later. Anything that does not improve ARV. If you install new windows you are getting zero return on that investment. Same for new plumbing, a new electrical panel or for cutting that old leaning monster tree down. But that's how you can recycle all your money, even though you pay the price later. It took me about 5 years to gradually realize that and we shifted more and more to doing things the right way the first time. You learn that we you have a tenant turn over and spend 30k on a property that you thought you had already rehabbed.
  
  Otherwise, not much to add to what @Nicholas L. and @Dan H. said.
  
  I'm in IL and have struggled to find good deals here. Current deal wrapping (3rd times the charm) in DFW area. I definitely appreciate what you mentioned about people posting their WINS and not posting a lot of the learning process that they've experienced or Loss overall. I jumped in RE and haven't quite figured it out. It's cost me a LOT imo and now I'm trying to preserve the little bit I have.
  0 Reply
- Marcus Auerbach
  Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Kay Sam:
  
  Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
  
  @Kay Sam anything you do remote is much harder than local. You have operational inefficiencies on top of flat out cost premiums. If you want to put a number on how much it costs more remote, make it 20%.
  
  I am not sure where home is for you, but DFW is a great market, it's not like you are in NY or SF. The grass only looks greener, because everyone is bragging about their success online and they stay quiet about their losses.
  
  BRRRR has been the #1 strategy long before Brandon coined that term. But the only way to do a full recycle is by slum lording it a little. You are basically putting big ticket capex off until later. Anything that does not improve ARV. If you install new windows you are getting zero return on that investment. Same for new plumbing, a new electrical panel or for cutting that old leaning monster tree down. But that's how you can recycle all your money, even though you pay the price later. It took me about 5 years to gradually realize that and we shifted more and more to doing things the right way the first time. You learn that we you have a tenant turn over and spend 30k on a property that you thought you had already rehabbed.
  
  Otherwise, not much to add to what @Nicholas L. and @Dan H. said.
  
  I'm in IL and have struggled to find good deals here. Current deal wrapping (3rd times the charm) in DFW area. I definitely appreciate what you mentioned about people posting their WINS and not posting a lot of the learning process that they've experienced or Loss overall. I jumped in RE and haven't quite figured it out. It's cost me a LOT imo and now I'm trying to preserve the little bit I have.
  
  The complexity and cost of anything you do remote is higher. You can't compete with local investors, they always have an advantage over you. And they will complain here on BO how hard is for them in Ohio or in DFW - and you trying to do better than them while remote? They have every advantage over you. And the crazy part is, you are already in the Midwest, that's where half the country wants to be for investing. Chicago is one of the hottest rental market in the US according to data from RentCafe, I think second only to Miami. Tell me why you have to go somewhere else?
  0 Reply
- Kay Sam
  OP
  Member since 2025 · 123 posts · 41 votes
  5mo
  Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
  
  Quote from @Kay Sam:
  
  Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
  
  @Kay Sam anything you do remote is much harder than local. You have operational inefficiencies on top of flat out cost premiums. If you want to put a number on how much it costs more remote, make it 20%.
  
  I am not sure where home is for you, but DFW is a great market, it's not like you are in NY or SF. The grass only looks greener, because everyone is bragging about their success online and they stay quiet about their losses.
  
  BRRRR has been the #1 strategy long before Brandon coined that term. But the only way to do a full recycle is by slum lording it a little. You are basically putting big ticket capex off until later. Anything that does not improve ARV. If you install new windows you are getting zero return on that investment. Same for new plumbing, a new electrical panel or for cutting that old leaning monster tree down. But that's how you can recycle all your money, even though you pay the price later. It took me about 5 years to gradually realize that and we shifted more and more to doing things the right way the first time. You learn that we you have a tenant turn over and spend 30k on a property that you thought you had already rehabbed.
  
  Otherwise, not much to add to what @Nicholas L. and @Dan H. said.
  
  I'm in IL and have struggled to find good deals here. Current deal wrapping (3rd times the charm) in DFW area. I definitely appreciate what you mentioned about people posting their WINS and not posting a lot of the learning process that they've experienced or Loss overall. I jumped in RE and haven't quite figured it out. It's cost me a LOT imo and now I'm trying to preserve the little bit I have.
  
  The complexity and cost of anything you do remote is higher. You can't compete with local investors, they always have an advantage over you. And they will complain here on BO how hard is for them in Ohio or in DFW - and you trying to do better than them while remote? They have every advantage over you. And the crazy part is, you are already in the Midwest, that's where half the country wants to be for investing. Chicago is one of the hottest rental market in the US according to data from RentCafe, I think second only to Miami. Tell me why you have to go somewhere else?
  
  Hi Marcus. At this point I'm figuring out what's the best area to be in. I haven't heard about Rentcafe before; I will have to look into this. Thx!
  0 Reply
Jake YuskaitisBusiness Member
Lender · New Jersey, USA · Member since 2022 · 254 posts · 67 votes
5mo
we are seeing a lot of volume on the lending end in Ohio. There are some great deals but you are right. Being remote does not fare well with real estate. It's a very in-person and intensive business.
[email protected]551-287-6884
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