Developers: How Do You Guys Make So Much Money?

Developers: How Do You Guys Make So Much Money?

Round Rock, TX · Member since 2017 · 86 posts · 45 votes

I put a piece of land under option and went through the whole process of getting quotes for everything for a 36 unit condo project.  Below are the numbers I came up with.  I have no idea how to make money in development now.  What am I doing wrong? (Sorry, I'm sure the formatting will get screwed up when I copy and paste this.)

Costs
Costs that can be financed
43200 x $140 = $6,048,000 building costs
      $75,000 pool
      $150,000 site work
      $85,000 land
      $10,000 design fees
      $60,000 civil engineering
      $5,000 legal fees (condo incorporation)
      $100,000 developer fees
      $288,000 commissions and closing costs
      $7,000 web design
      $6,828,000 total financiable costs
Costs that cannot be financed
      $1,092,480 closing and interest costs
Total cost
      $8,208,480 total costs
Total cash cost
$6,828,000 x 0.2 = $1,365,600 down payment on construction loan
      $1,092,480 closing and interest costs
      $2,458,080 total cash cost
Revenue, Profit, and ROI
      $200,000 estimated sales price per unit
36 x $200,000 = $7,200,000 revenue
$7,200,000 - $8,208,480 = ($1,008,480) profit
($1,008,480) / $2,458,080 = -41.03% ROI
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Architect · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 843 posts · 907 votes
7y

I dont know where you got your design fee from but it is WAY underpriced. Architecture fees alone ar going to run you 5-10% on construction cost. So based off you 6 mil price thats $30-60k. I also dont see any permit fees, which is going to be in the 5 digits as well, unless this is in your developer fees...which im not sure what those are exactly. 

One thing to note, I'm assuming you paid all cash for the land, you can use the land value as a down payment for the construction loan. 

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  • Architect · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 843 posts · 907 votes
    7y

    I dont know where you got your design fee from but it is WAY underpriced. Architecture fees alone ar going to run you 5-10% on construction cost. So based off you 6 mil price thats $30-60k. I also dont see any permit fees, which is going to be in the 5 digits as well, unless this is in your developer fees...which im not sure what those are exactly. 

    One thing to note, I'm assuming you paid all cash for the land, you can use the land value as a down payment for the construction loan. 

  • Round Rock, TX · Member since 2017 · 86 posts · 45 votes
    7y

    Okay, but even with understated design fees, it still loses a million dollars.  That's more of my focus here.

    Sorry, I thought it would be clear from what I said and the numbers.  My point is that when I run numbers, I get nowhere close to profitability.  Yet development is going on like crazy all around my area.  And from what I understand, it is ludicrously profitable.  So I'm wondering where the problem lies.

  • Real Estate Broker · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 427 votes
    7y

    People think developers make a lot of money but once you factor in the costs and the risks, profit margins are very minimal for a lot of work!  Would I keep building?  Yes, I will continue doing it in a low volume, along with other investment strategies.  

    For your case, hard costs at $140/ft and selling each unit for $200,000 is not enough margin at all.  

  • Architect · St. Charles, IL · Member since 2018 · 95 posts · 70 votes
    7y

    For one, it seems like you are bringing way too much cash to this deal. Secondly, it's true your hard construction costs don't align with what you want to sell the units for. Do the numbers look any better if they are rentals? 

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    7y

    You have to get the land REAL CHEAP and make sure SITE COSTS can be kept to minimum to try and curb risk.

    If you pay a premium for the land where margins are slim and everything has to go right to turn a profit then the risk versus upside ratio is out of whack.

    I have been in the business about 15 years and I listen to those in the business over 40 years and own millions of sq ft. in properties.

  • Developer · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2016 · 464 posts · 143 votes
    7y

    people always think developers make a ton of money. Reality is with permits, land costs and variety of uncontrollable variables most can’t turn a profit. 

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    Well,  no possible way to make a profit if your hard vertical building costs alone is $140/sf and your completed sales price is around $165/sf.  Don’t know the values in your specific area but I don’t think the building costs should be more than $110/sf or so.

    One thing that jumps out at me.....if you can buy enough land to build 36 units for $85k, sounds like it is not a desirable area......therefore prevailing prices will Not support new construction costs.

  • Architect · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 843 posts · 907 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jim Macedon:

    Okay, but even with understated design fees, it still loses a million dollars.  That's more of my focus here.

    Sorry, I thought it would be clear from what I said and the numbers.  My point is that when I run numbers, I get nowhere close to profitability.  Yet development is going on like crazy all around my area.  And from what I understand, it is ludicrously profitable.  So I'm wondering where the problem lies.

     I'm sorry. I guess I got focused on the numbers and not the intent of your post. 

    I'll have to agree with everyone else. If you are building at $140/sf you need to be selling those condos at close to double what you have it as. $140/sf is at that fringe of almost being a high end condo (obviously that price varies with location) for most the country. 

    You also hit on why not just any location can be developed. There are a LOT of costs that are involved and the up front money is HUGE compared to just buying a building. Just because the land is flat doesnt mean its worth building on. 

  • Latham, NY · Member since 2014 · 20 posts · 12 votes
    7y

    What is your experience with real estate and building/contracting industry in general?

    Is this your first project are you parlaying similar experience into real estate?

    What connections/team do you have set up?

    If this is your first go at real estate and you are looking to do a large new build there is alot of things stacked against you. 

    I am all for people with BHAG (big hairy audacious goals) but if your numbers on paper don't work and people are pointing other things out that are needed i would recommend you look at other options.

    To answer your question how they make money:  They can make money in several different ways depending on the X factor they have.  

    Some developers own or partner with a construction company so all the work is done at cost.  On top of that a large company will have preferred pricing as well as not have a 10% (or more) mark up on all supplies ordered.  As well as have partnerships with design firms that keep design cost and know the most cost efficient designs.

    Meanwhile the developer is typically bringing financial backing and possibly a good raw land cost.

    So there are a lot of factors going into a development making money.  Even with all these factors going for a development there are a bunch of other tricky items that can sink the deal. One big one can be how long it takes to build and if the market has shifted by the time units are built.

    Im not experienced in ground up developments but the comments above bring to light some very good points that i would heed. 

    Also @joe owens above mentioned that he works with people more experienced than him. I think that is a great way to learn and help reduce your chances of getting into a bad deal.

    Good Luck!

  • Round Rock, TX · Member since 2017 · 86 posts · 45 votes
    7y

    Thanks for all your input. Really appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge. Is there a rule of thumb for construction cost vs sale price? Like sales price must be 50% more than construction costs or something like that? Or is every situation unique?

    Does a developer have to be a GC to make money? My understanding was that they usually aren't.

  • Developer · Tampa, FL · Member since 2016 · 118 posts · 61 votes
    7y

    Your running into a problem many developers are with multifamily. Its hard to make anything less than a Class A property pencil out. 

    I have a specific strategy I follow but the properties are difficult to find. If I can find one to meet the criteria I DO NOT press it. Be mindful where we are in the cycle.

    I am developing 12 town homes, 2 are complete. I am developing at $90-$105/SF depending on finishes for the intended customer. 

    Including the land the deal cannot exceed $145-$150/SF. I havent had any project come in over $141. Closing cost roughly $15/SF. 

    These are being marketed at $230-$240/SF. Expectation is to close at $220. 

    I have one project that is complete having first open house Saturday. Here is a birds eye view of the numbers.

    Construction: $97/SF

    Land: $39/SF

    Contingency: $10/SF

    Closing $15/SF

    Builder fee: $9/SF

    Total Cost/SF: $170

    Total SF: 5866

    Total Cost: $997,220

    Sales projection: $210/SF (conservative)

    Sales projection: $1,231,860.

    Potential Net profit: $234,640

  • Developer · Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 38 votes
    7y
    @Jim Macedon if you haven’t done a project like this before then abandon. Build a few single families then maybe a small commercial property or two. Make your mistakes, gain some valuable knowledge, amass some working capital, make some valuable connections, then take the bulls by the horns on a 36 unit building. BTW 85k for a lot that allows for a 36 unit building? Unless you brought a .357 to closing, that doesn’t sound right to me. Good luck!
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    in texas unless these are over the top nice which i doubt.. build cost for vertical should be more in the 70 to 80 dollar range per square foot.. ... 

    15% profit on gross  is a nice number..  so new construction at 200k exit is hard.. thats why a lot of new construciton is more in the 300 to 500k range.. so you make 45 to 75k a house.

    the money is made in velocity and and getting them up and sold quickly.

  • Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    It also doesn't help you that materials and labor are both extremely high right now ....

  • Lender · Oakbrook, IL · Member since 2018 · 34 posts · 9 votes
    7y

    Jay is right, move as quickly as possible time is of the essence, I have done a few bridge loans for builders that have got stuck in a bad situation and can't move on to the next project. 

  • Round Rock, TX · Member since 2017 · 86 posts · 45 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    in texas unless these are over the top nice which i doubt.. build cost for vertical should be more in the 70 to 80 dollar range per square foot.. ... 

    15% profit on gross  is a nice number..  so new construction at 200k exit is hard.. thats why a lot of new construciton is more in the 300 to 500k range.. so you make 45 to 75k a house.

    the money is made in velocity and and getting them up and sold quickly.

    Are you sure you're talking about Austin?  I shopped a duplex plan and a 4plex plan around for about a year and the best deal I was offered was $132/sq ft.  And that was rental finishes.  I must have talked to every builder in Austin over that stretch.  If you know a builder in Austin that will build for $70/sq ft, I'd give my left arm to meet him.

  • Round Rock, TX · Member since 2017 · 86 posts · 45 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Michael Gravallese:
    @Jim Macedon if you haven’t done a project like this before then abandon. Build a few single families then maybe a small commercial property or two. Make your mistakes, gain some valuable knowledge, amass some working capital, make some valuable connections, then take the bulls by the horns on a 36 unit building. BTW 85k for a lot that allows for a 36 unit building? Unless you brought a .357 to closing, that doesn’t sound right to me. Good luck!

    You're 100% right.  I'm currently in the process of building a 4plex that I'm holding.  I was looking for a to sell project, and decided on this.  It was out of pure ignorance and naivete.  I thought I could do phases where I just built one building for like $800,000, sell the units, rinse and repeat.  I didn't realize the huge upfront expenses that pretty much defeat the whole purpose of doing phases.

    I already nixed the project and terminated the contract for the land.  I'm going to take a step back and make sure my current project goes well, and then maybe look at doing a slightly larger building, maybe 8 units or something.  Or I may go back to looking at existing multifamily.  I'm frustrated that I haven't been able to get a better deal on construction when I see so many people saying it should be $100/sq ft or less.  Where should I be looking?  Commercial contractors?  My focus up to now has been on custom home builders because my projects were only 2 and 4 unit.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    7y

    Commercial in GA per sq ft used to be cheaper 4 to 5 years ago for projects. Contractors worked with slim margins to keep crews working as the cycle recovered off the bottom. Now that rehabs and ground up is in full swing the contractors have more jobs than they can do so up their pricing for supply and demand.

  • Renter · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2018 · 278 posts · 71 votes
    7y

    Around here in a the Western Suburbs of Portland, Oregon, developers slowed down SFHs and condos a few years ago. Almost every new project is apartment buildings with a just few commercial projects here and there. Every time I drive by one of these 100-500 unit brand new apartment buildings, I try and guess the sale price with rents running $1500-2000 and the number always seems to be in the tens of millions. Don't apartments get valued as a multiplier of rent, based on interest rate investment comps, correct me if I'm wrong?

    Our area has tons of tech jobs and there's a constant flow of people that move in from out of state so it looks easy to sell these brand new $10-50M buildings but who knows if there's a downturn and rents drop? 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jim Macedon:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    in texas unless these are over the top nice which i doubt.. build cost for vertical should be more in the 70 to 80 dollar range per square foot.. ... 

    15% profit on gross  is a nice number..  so new construction at 200k exit is hard.. thats why a lot of new construciton is more in the 300 to 500k range.. so you make 45 to 75k a house.

    the money is made in velocity and and getting them up and sold quickly.

    Are you sure you're talking about Austin?  I shopped a duplex plan and a 4plex plan around for about a year and the best deal I was offered was $132/sq ft.  And that was rental finishes.  I must have talked to every builder in Austin over that stretch.  If you know a builder in Austin that will build for $70/sq ft, I'd give my left arm to meet him.

    OK did not realize your talking Austin.. then on the flip side Austin being expensive why would those townhouses not sell for 300k like other markets.. ???  you cant have a build cost at 140 a foot and a sale at 160 a foot  that no work..  

  • Round Rock, TX · Member since 2017 · 86 posts · 45 votes
    7y

    Well, it's not in downtown Austin.  It's a suburb.  Problem seems to be that the construction costs are the same as Austin, but the sales market is not.  I was attracted by the cheap land and availability of multifamily lots.  Looking for a diamond in the rough I guess.  But it looks like the obvious places to build are obvious for a reason.

  • Round Rock, TX · Member since 2017 · 86 posts · 45 votes
    7y

    Do commercial general contractor charge less than residential home builders.  And if so, how big do you think the project needs to be to draw their interest?

  • Developer · Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 38 votes
    7y
    @Jim Macedon Finding the right builder is definitely a challenge, especially now since things are booming. Everyone is so busy that the crazy numbers are being thrown out there and the contractors are doing the work for the people willing to pay. Your job is to find that contractor more interested in a long term customer or “partner” rather than capitalizing on a quick hit. Offer to pay them fairly and maybe even share in part of the profits to get them excited and keep them interested. I would try and stay away from any builder that also develops. Last thing you need is to be in competition with them. Problem is in this economy, most are doing just that. Best of luck!
  • Round Rock, TX · Member since 2017 · 86 posts · 45 votes
    7y

    Seems like more often than not the big developers are getting government assistance for their projects.

  • Mike ReynoldsPro Member
    construction · Nacogdoches, TX · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Jim Macedon pm me. I might have a few GC's in that area I can help you out with. That cost per foot is way too much. 

    I do expect a medium rare ribeye if it pans out next time I am in the area lol. And some good conversation of course. 

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