Jeff planned on becoming a lawyer in college, but once he had his first child, realized that being away from home wasn’t for him. He got a sales job and became the top sales rep in his company. When the company started dangling bonuses over his head, he felt uncomfortable and knew that he needed to start his own thing.
If variety is the spice of life, then Jeff is doing things right! He argues that the best thing you can do is go into a completely new industry, focus on a problem that competitors are overlooking, build systems to make the industry better, and carve out a portion of the market. This strategy has worked well for him as he’s profitably sold and started many different companies. If you want his breakdown on his formula to success, you’ll have to tune in to this episode!
Welcome to the BiggerPockets Business Podcast, show number 96.
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The main thing for me has been I like to go into new industries with zero experience because I believe experience is one of the most overrated prerequisites to starting a company. And people spend 10 years trying to gain experience, then do things exactly the same way as everybody else and wonder why they’re not successful.
Welcome to a real-world MBA from the school of hard knocks, where entrepreneurs reveal what it really takes to make it. Whether you’re already in business or you’re on your way there, this show is for you. This is BiggerPockets Business.
How’s it going, everybody. I am J Scott, your co-host for the BiggerPockets Business Podcast. And I am here this week, as I’m lucky to be every week, with my lovely wife and co-host, Carol Scott. How’s it going today, Carol?
I am so happy. Can I tell you the greatest, most amazing, phenomenal exciting news ever?
You really sold that, so let’s hear it.
I know. Okay.
Better be great.
For me, it’s a really, really, really big deal, and potentially for you too. So Chase, and community members, Chase is our amazing 11-year-old fifth grader, Chase said to me on the way home from school today, “Mom, I just asked Alexa to add all the ingredients for chocolate chip cookies to the shopping list because I want to make chocolate chip cookies for you all on my own.” Do you even believe it? I have been waiting and waiting and waiting for this day to come and it is here. My child is making me chocolate chip cookies.
I was really hoping you were going to tell me that he was going to make the cookies, sell them and then start paying us rent.
Hey, baby steps, baby. We just got to little by little, we’ll work it out.
Okay. Cookies today, cookie business tomorrow. Alrighty. Well, let’s jump into our show for today. Because we have a really good show today. Speaking of business, we’ve got a guy named Jeff Fenster. And Jeff is a serial entrepreneur, he has got a book coming out in the very near future called The Relationship Bank Account. And Jeff has some amazing advice for us for those of us who are interested in being serial entrepreneurs. Actually, he has amazing advice for anybody in business, but specifically for those of us who are interested in being serial entrepreneurs. And when I say serial entrepreneurs, I’m talking about those of us who just couldn’t imagine doing the same business or the same job for the next 10 or 20 or 30 years.
People like Jeff, people like myself, probably people like you, who would much rather start multiple businesses and grow multiple businesses one every couple of years because you get bored and because you like new challenges. And that’s the type of person Jeff is. He’s had multiple businesses, he’s made multiple businesses successful. And on our show today, Jeff walks us through some of his best advice and wisdom for those of us who are interested in being a successful serial entrepreneurs. Among the things that he talks to us about why experience is the most overrated prerequisite for starting a business. We always hear that have experience, do something you’re good at, do something because that’s going to make your business successful.
Actually, Jeff kind of turns that advice on its head and says, “Focus on businesses that you don’t have a lot of experience doing.” And he tells us why Jeff talks to us about why money is likely not the thing that’s stopping you from starting your business. A lot of us think that money is the thing that’s keeping us from making progress. But Jeff explains to us why it’s probably something else, other than money that’s keeping you from being successful starting and growing your business. He talks to us about reverse engineering our business model, and he talks to us about losing our ego. And he uses the term himself, he calls himself the dumbest guy in the room, and how being the dumbest guy in the room is your best recipe for business success. And he tells us why you want to lose your ego and why it’s okay to be the dumbest guy in the room.
He talks to us about picking an industry and picking a business, creating a business that solves problems. And he talks to us about why relationship capital, this idea of building relationships, building your network is the single most important key to business success, and how you can go about generating and building this relationship capital. All in all, this is just an amazing episode. Jeff’s an amazing entrepreneur and he’s got some fantastic advice. If you want to learn more about Jeff, more about anything we talk about on the show, check out our show notes at biggerpockets.com/bizshow96. Again, that’s biggerpockets.com/bizshow96. Okay. Without any further ado, let’s welcome Jeff Fenster to the show.
Jeff, welcome to the BiggerPockets Business Podcast. J and I are huge fans and we know so many people in our community are huge fans of yours too, and you have so many great things to talk about. We’re entirely excited to learn from your knowledge and experience. So thank you so much for joining us today.
Thank you for having me. It’s an honor, I’m a fan of your guys’s show. It’s truly a pleasure to get the opportunity to be on here today and meet your audience and have some fun.
Well, thanks, Jeff. Appreciate that. Okay. So to set the stage, you are a serial entrepreneur, you started a lot of businesses, and I’m sure we’re going to talk about several of them on the show today. But let’s set the stage for our listeners, for our community. Tell us a little bit about where you came from and what is your big focus from an entrepreneurial perspective today?
Yeah. The word entrepreneur is a fun word now. I mean, it's the sexy buzz word that is being used so much today. I never had any idea or plan on being an entrepreneur, I probably didn't even know how to spell it when I started my career or even had any connection to it. I mean, back then it was business owner or career, those were your two paths in life. And usually it was career until you built up enough experience, then you became a business owner in whatever that field was. My background, I went to law school to be a sports agent. I really wanted to stay connected to sports, it was one of my passions. And I felt like I had to do something every day for the rest of my life, I might as well love what I do in the industry.
And so the only thing that really felt like, hey, you could do this forever was sports. And despite my obvious appearance, I wasn’t blessed with the gift to be a professional athlete. So I had to find a different way to connect to it. So I did that what I thought would be that, which was law school. My third year of law school, I got engaged and had a daughter with my … We had a daughter and got engaged and realized I didn’t want to travel the world representing athletes and being away all the time. And I wanted to stay more physically located where my future wife and kid were and be a good dad. And so when I graduated law school, I had no idea what I was going to do, because I didn’t want to practice law is a career and I had six figures of law school debt. And there was.
Obviously, I had a lot of influence from my parents to, hey, why don’t you actually go practice law, be a lawyer. Do the thing that you just spent all that money and time pursuing, and it’s a good career, and it’s a safe career. I really couldn’t see myself doing that. And so I got a job. A friend of mine was working at ADP, the payroll company, and they said, “Well, Jeff, you’ve been good in sales your whole life. You’ve done a lot of sales jobs throughout high school and college and law school. Why don’t you come work for us and figure out what you want to do next?” So I did. I got an outside sales job making $38,000 a year plus commission at ADP at 24 years old. And I was like, yeah, you know what, I’ll do this until I figure out what’s next for me.
Fortunately, I was very successful. My first six months there, I was the number one sales rep in the country out of 2,000 sales reps, first to make president’s club. I made six figures of income. My first six months was golfing three, four days a week working four hours a day, living that lifestyle. It was great. I was like, hey, this is my career. I mean, it’s that easy. And I’d earned a $17,000 bonus. And I went to my boss in January of 2008 and said, “I earned this bonus, I’d like to get paid it.” And they explained to me I had to wait to the end of the fiscal year, which wasn’t until June 30th. I’d get it in July. And my heart sunk that day. I just literally was like, “Oh, my God, I’m going to be trading my time and future months of my life forever to get some stuff that I earned.”
I had a big ego. I thought I was the because I had done so well. And I figured, hey, I’m the number one sales rep, they’ll change the rules for me. And so I tried to use that influence and sell them why they needed to pay me now. They basically said no way. I went home that night, I talked to my fiance and said, “I’d like to quit my job.” We had just purchased a house in Mira Mesa. It was our first house, we had moved in and I was like, “I want to quit my job and move in with my mom and dad and start my own payroll company because F them. And if they’re going to treat me this way, I can do this on my own.” My parents thought I was crazy. My friends said I was crazy. My fiance said, “Do whatever makes you happy.”
So I went in that day, threatened to quit if they didn’t pay me the money. They said there’s the big door if you want to walk out. And so I quit the very next day and started a payroll company out of my mom’s kitchen called i-CHEX with a buddy of mine. And that was my foray into what the word now what we call an entrepreneur. And I did it out of spite and over $17,000.
That is the best thing that company ever, ever, ever could have done for you. Right? At the time, were you just kind of like, are you even kidding me? But then boom, light bulb. You’re like, yeah, well, I’ll show you and I’m going to make this all better. I want to dig more into the journey. But I want to unpack one very specific point because I very highly suspect it will resonate with our community really well. Right up in the beginning of the story, you talked about how you were going to do sports law, and then, I guess I should say, you had a daughter on the way, and you wanted to make sure that you were in some type of role in your life where you were always there for your future wife and for your future daughter at the time. So I would just like to explore that more. Has that remained just front and center, would you say, through every decision that you’ve made throughout your entrepreneurial process over these past 12 years?
I mean, I’d be lying if I said it was as strong now and throughout the journey as it was then because you tend to navigate. Think about it like going down a river and there’s there’s ups and downs and sideways. Obviously, when babies are little, there’s all these major milestone life events, and missing one of those felt like something that I would not trade for anything. Fast forward, obviously my kids are older, my oldest is 15, my youngest is 9, a lot less of those. If I miss a Tuesday today, I’m not going to miss her first step or her first word, I might just miss a Tuesday. And so it’s been easier to travel a little bit more and be away as they age.
But being a young dad and not wanting to miss all of those things and be present for it, that was so important to me that it was amazing how your priorities change from what I thought I wanted to this. So I would say yes, they’ve definitely been in the forefront of my decision making. But through the journey, obviously, as they’ve aged and I’ve aged, I found more opportunities to do things that have required me to travel and have required me to be away from them a little bit more than I would like to but I felt like it wasn’t as big of a sacrifice.
So a lot of the entrepreneurs that we speak with on this show, and a lot of the entrepreneurs I know in real life, basically they pick a business, they pick an industry, and 10 years later, they look up and they’re still in the same business in the same industry and same company, and that’s a great thing. Certainly, there are some of us, it sounds like you’re one, I know I’m certainly one, where doing the same thing for 10 or 20 or 30 years. It sounds like over the last 10 years, you’ve kind of branched out from that first business. And I don’t know if you still have the first business, if you’ve done others, but talk us through a little bit what the last 10 or 12 years have looked like since you made that jump on your own.
Yeah. I’ll give you the quick version just so that way we can unpack what you think is the most pertinent. But, yeah, I used to be told … I was the guy in high school who worked seven jobs in two years. Tried them all. Had one that was constant. But constantly, I worked at Blockbuster for six months, I worked at pickup steaks for eight weeks, I worked at a nursery for 10 days and hated it. And it was like, hey, you need to find that thing. Back then one might said I had ADD or ADHD towards careers. And it was just none of that was inspiring, because like you just said, the idea of doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, especially when you’re not passionate about it, I didn’t want to do that.
But what I did fall in love with and what I realize now, because I have clarity of being on my own now since 2008 in doing all these different businesses, is what I love is startups. I love starting companies. I could do those over and over and over and over again. Because the what we do is different, but the how we do it in the process is the same. And there's a success formula that I've developed just through trials and tribulations that I use for businesses that works for me, and what business I do or choose to get into, what industry is kind of agnostic, it doesn't really matter. So I went from payroll. And me and my partner, we grew that company, we raised some private equity capital in 2009. I ended up selling the company at the end of 2011 to a company in Florida.
Simultaneously, I started a recruiting agency to serve those customers because my timing was impeccable starting a company right during the … Literally, I think two weeks before the financial meltdown of 2008. Because why not? Why not add that on to inexperience and no money. But it taught me a lot, it taught my partner a lot. And from that journey, once we got out of the payroll and HR business, and then I sold the recruiting company in 2012, I started a handful businesses in 2012. All different things from one called Equity Circle, which the purpose was to legalize equity-based crowdfunding, which is now legal through the job CARES Act.
We did a change.org petition. We wanted to have a platform for startup founders to be able to raise capital and micro investments from lots of people instead of having to go through private equity because our first experience with it, although we raised money from two different PE firms, it wasn’t a fun experience. And I didn’t enjoy it. And I think that I got taken advantage of my youth and inexperience. And I wanted to create a new outlet for entrepreneurs. While we were successful in our mission to get it passed, we failed in our platform because I didn’t spend as much time building out a platform as I did fighting the good fight. And so I set it up for others to make money and me to just fight the good fight. But I learned from that.
And then from there, I had a couple of different websites. I started a digital marketing agency in 2012. Because my youngest was born and again, I wanted to be more present since I was gone the last couple years building up the previous company. So again, a new kid, a new idea of not wanting to miss firsts and I felt like a computer, I wasn’t going anywhere. And computers were becoming more mainstream in business and how we penetrated the payroll business was taking a paper driven industry that everything was done in filing cabinets and folders and binders and paper and built an HRIS platform that was technologically driven and created a situation where companies can have from hire to fire and every event in between in a single database, online, accessible with employees. Like, things we take for granted now.
But before iPhone and before apps, this was all online now. So I wanted to do something like that using digital marketing. And so I started a digital marketing agency in 2012, at the end of 2012. And from there, spun off a few websites, grew that, and that was a new business and then sold off our clients in 2015 and 2016 at the beginning, and then moved over to where we are now, which is Everbowl. And the main thing for me has been, I like to go into new industries with zero experience, because I believe experience is one of the most overrated prerequisites to starting a company. And to your point, people spent 10 years trying to gain experience, then do things exactly the same way as everybody else and wonder why they’re not successful, versus coming in with fresh eyes and being able to disrupt the market with your own approach towards it and your own acumen at the time and using, today’s 2021, so 2021 thinking.
But if it’s next year, 2022 thinking, and approach the problem from a different perspective. Because when you spend too much time in one niche, one industry, you end up getting blinded by the force, you get lost, because you’ve been doing it so long. And all of your mindset is built off of all the things that you’ve encountered over that last period of time. And therefore, you’re looking at it the same way as everyone else in the industry. It’s really hard to come in with fresh eyes. So every three to five years, I’m the same position as everyone else and I lose one of my competitive edges. So starting a new business in a new industry gives me that new competitive edge of fresh eyes and disruption.
So over the journey, over my entrepreneurial journey for me, it’s been I like new industry. So when I’m done with Everbowl, whenever that day is, I promise you, I won’t be doing another restaurant, it’ll be something in a completely different space. And using another concept that I really believe is important of vertical integration. And how we vertically integrate at Everbowl, which I’m sure we’ll get into, I learned with my recruiting agency to pair with my payroll business. And I learned in the digital marketing space, when you start to understand SaaS applications and how companies are using all these different tools internally on what you can build, and how when you vertically integrate your business, you build a moat. And you really create such a huge competitive advantage for your company, that it makes competitors almost irrelevant, and you’re not competing with anybody anymore.
So like when people ask me at Everbowl, who are your biggest competitors, I can name other restaurants, but we’re doing things completely different. We are not a restaurant, we are a machine, we are a system. We are a system to grow and scale our concept. But you might open a competitive food concept to us, but we’re not competing. And I can demonstrate later in our show or in your interview on how that and why that is. But to answer that last question that you asked in a long-winded way is my journey has been really identifying that I’m just more of a startup entrepreneur, a serial entrepreneur, and someone who really enjoys taking a concept or an idea and building it from the ground up and getting it to scale and then passing it off to someone who can optimize it to that next level.
I absolutely love everything about this. You’ve realized that your strength is that whole startup phase. You talked about the fact that you have this success formula that has several different components. And that it sounds like, if I’m understanding correctly, through your serial entrepreneurialism, you’ve put those to work and you’ve been able to dominate all of these completely different industries by following all these different parts of this formula. So I’ve heard a couple of them, for example, about zero experience you think is a big deal, for example, disrupting the market. Can you tell us more about your other components of your success formula and dig into a few of them that you are just absolutely certain are the ones that make you absolutely successful in this journey?
Yeah, sure. They’ve been turned back into like, I guess what you would call, core values. And the first two are the most important to me, which is make friends and have fun. And those sound very fluffy, but there’s a lot there. A lot can be unpacked from making friends and having fun. And one of the main pieces of success and where I have been able to be successful, and what I would recommend anyone who’s starting out or is on their journey to recognize is, relationship capital and your access to your network is the most important component. I’d rather you give me the right introductions than a million dollars if I’m starting a company with no resources.
Most young entrepreneurs, not in age but in experience, think money is what’s prohibiting them from growth. And they’re like, if I only had the capital. Well, I can give you a million dollars, you’ll blow it and then you’ll be in the same boat. But if I introduce you to the right person, and that right person can do the right thing for your company, or I create an opportunity for you to be in front of the people you need to be in front of, that’s going to be more predictive of your success or your future success than capital. And so part of my success formula has always been on relationship capital.
I’m actually coming out with my first book. It’s called The Relationship Bank Account. It’s truly about this one concept. And I’ve done a course for Forbes and of course for LinkedIn Learning, but it’s all in relationship capital. I owe 95% of my success that I’ve ever had to who I know and the relationships that I’ve nurtured over the 37 years I’ve been on the planet. And so part of that success formula is when I say making friends and having fun, it has two components. The first one is because you’re building your network by making friends with everybody and understanding that you don’t predetermine a relationship based on what you think you know about this person. And that’s the mistake people make, they go to networking meetings and we all ask the same questions. Who do you work for? And what do you do?
Because we want to know how much energy we want to put into getting to know this human being, not realizing that everybody is somebody’s brother, sister, aunt, cousin, mother, father, and everybody can be a champion on your team to help you get to where you want to get an open doors that you don’t even know that you need to open. And so making friends does that and having fun makes you likable. But then in addition, just as you go through the world, making friends and having fun as core values also means like you take our restaurant chain, Everbowl, those are the two main rules to work at our stores. And what does that mean? It means you show up on time because you’re not making friends with your co-workers and your customers if you don’t show up at the time you say you’re going to. The same way if I meet a friend for lunch, and I show up late, I’m not being a good friend.
You act with integrity, you don’t you don’t put someone down, you don’t judge people, you treat people the way you want to be treated. So it does all the things you want inside of your business as it does also on a macro level when you’re growing your business. So make friends and have fun are obviously the two most paramount ones that I think are the foundation. And then from there, as we talked about, obviously, fresh eyes and disruption are important. But being remarkable at what you do and really giving your best. Because so often we don’t get to where we want to get because we don’t give absolutely 100% of ourselves. And when you’re around other people who are giving 100%, it’s clear when you’re not if they are. And so you’re not attracting the right people.
And when you surround yourself with people who are pushing the envelope of their own capabilities and willing to go the extra mile personally to make sure that when I put my name on something, or I’m in charge of this department, or I’m in charge of this assignment, and I’m going to give my absolute best, when you do that, you attract other people who do that. And all of a sudden your enterprise starts to snowball into this unstoppable force of people who are just pushing the envelope. The truth is, 99% of the world doesn’t. Hard work beats talent every time when the talent doesn’t work hard. And so it’s also very hard to beat someone who won’t quit.
So although we don’t know what challenges we’re going to run into, we don’t know what the company is going to encounter, when you won’t quit, and you work your off, and you’re willing to give 100% of yourself, you’ll find a way. Just like water through rocks and crevices, it will find a way. And then being change-ready, to the other point that I think precludes a lot of people from success, but it’s allowed me to stay successful during challenging times like the 2008 financial crisis or the 2020 COVID crisis, whatever other crises have happened or we will encounter is understanding that what we did yesterday doesn’t mean it’s going to work tomorrow. And so when you have a change-ready attitude and a change-ready mindset, when things happen, you’re able to adapt and pivot and change your business.
Some of the greatest examples of that is Netflix and Blockbuster. I mean, blockbuster should be Netflix right now. And it is a professional crime that a company as big and grand is Blockbuster didn’t change when the market said it’s time to change and why blackberry is not an iPhone today is also incredible to me, or why Best Buy isn’t the Amazon of electronics. And all of these big boxes and big archaic businesses that didn’t change and didn’t have a change ready mindset, you become a dinosaur and you lose because the constant in the world has changed. And so that’s another component of the of my success formula is understanding that our business yesterday is not our business tomorrow. And we have to be ready to change and understand what we need to do.
Those variables, those concepts, if you understand them and really dig into the weeds on them, can make you pretty much have a formula that will allow you to be successful. And when I say successful, it doesn’t mean you’re going to be the next Jeff Bezos and Amazon. I mean, obviously, those are unicorns that we all can strive to be, but success it’s not a number. You’re achieving what you want to achieve. For Everbowl, my goal is to make healthy living accessible, affordable, delicious, and filling for as many human beings on the planet as I can. We just closed three units in St. Louis, we have stores coming to Florida, so to your hometown, or your home state. One of our goals is to bring Everbowl to all 50 US states. And if I can do that, that’s success to me. I didn’t mention money, right? So by us focusing on that as our success metric, we will be successful, we will get there. It’s just a question of when.
I absolutely love this. And there’s so many things that you’ve brought up in this discussion that I want to unpack. I don’t even know where to start. But I’m going to just pick one because you had so many great things that I think we could really dig into further. One, you mentioned, avoid competing and using systems to grow and scale so that you don’t necessarily have to find a competitive edge, your systems and your processes are the competitive edge. Can you talk a little bit more about that and maybe talk a little bit about how maybe inevitable today you are actually implementing that idea of not having to compete?
Sure. Yeah. So I started the first Everbowl in October of 2016. I self-funded the first couple and it costs a quarter of a million dollars to build and I got to experience firsthand when people say restaurants are expensive. And one would argue a quarter of a million dollars for a restaurant is cheap comparatively to a lot of restaurants. But it’s still a lot of money. And when you invest that kind of capital to start a business, now you have this whole location, location, location, location issue, and you have a will people buy issue and how long it will take to get my capital back and what competitors are in the market. I’d rather go where there’s a competitor because they’ve already built my market.
And so how that concept of not competing and building systems is, well, we looked at what is the problem? The problem is not that restaurants are expensive and risky, right? I mean, 9 out of 10 restaurants fail, my dad told me when I said I was going to start Everbowl. Well, they fail because people run out of capital, and they don’t have the opportunity to build their restaurant because they spent too much upfront. So the CapEx is a problem. And so, well, let’s attack that problem. So let’s think about what is the issue. And one of the things I like to do when there’s a problem, my family, my business, whatever is, before we run and solve the problem, which immediately people say, we’ll go raise a bunch of money. Restaurants are expensive. You want to build a lot of them, go raise a lot of money.
That sounds like a solution. But what if we think about the problem differently? What if we do something else and that problem disappears? We might have a different problem, but that problem is no longer. So before we solve the problem, what if we just change our inputs and now we don’t have that problem anymore? And so how do we make restaurants cheaper to build. And the beauty is you can be the greatest copycat in the world from other industries if you’re just always learning, and you’re just being aware of what’s out there. And so you look at IKEA. IKEA built furniture in a box. And I can go to IKEA right now and get my entire house furnished with a couple boxes come home in a few hours. Maybe not me, but somebody more handy with some tools could probably put most of that together.
And so we took the idea of, could we turn restaurants into IKEA? Can we not IKEA our concept and make it to where we build out our restaurants in a box and bring our cost of entry from a quarter of a million dollars to 150 grand or 100 grand or whatever the number will be, and change that outcome. And so serial entrepreneur startup guy started a company called WeBuild Stuff, WeBuild Stuff, LLC, and we built Everbowl. And so we did. Ad started going to my network and said, who can help me solve this problem? Because I'm not handy with tools. And like I said, I can barely put together Legos, let alone IKEA furniture, let alone a restaurant. But because I know a lot of great qualified, talented human beings. There's people out there who this is their passion, they love this stuff.
And so partnered with some of them and brought them onto our team and we launched WeBuild. WeBuild has built out all the Everbowls and change the whole mechanism from costing a quarter of a million to $300,000 to the low six figures to even under six figures to build restaurants, to where now my problem is not that they cost too much money, that’s gone now. I don’t have that problem. My problem now is picking good locations, which is a separate issue. But how the system changed the problem is the initial problem was they were just too expensive and I don’t need to raise money. So now I could build two, three, four restaurants for the price of one, which now allows me to scale and grow. And we have a construction company which generates its own revenue and its own profitability for us, or we just pass the savings back to ourselves, or now fast forward to where now we’re franchising, we pass that savings to our franchisees.
So, franchisees who want to get into Everbowl and are comparing us versus our competitors, well, to build out one of our stores versus our competitors is 25 to 75% cheaper, sometimes 200% cheaper if it's a super expensive bill. And all of a sudden, we'll wait, we haven't even gotten to food yet, we're just comparing CapEx up front. Wait, I can build two or three Everbowls, Jeff, for the same price as one of your competitor? Yes, you can. Well, that's interesting, right? Because now, all these other fun ideas get to … We started getting to talk about buying power and amortization of expenses across multiple stores and owning a market. And that growth that you wanted to do in five years can maybe be done in 18 months. And all of a sudden, it's a different conversation.
So who we’re competing with, I’m not competing with those restaurants because those restaurants are just names on a door that sell a product similar to ours. No. What we’re doing is we’re creating a system kind of like anyone who’s seen that movie The Founder. When you learned about what McDonald’s did, it was that easy, speedy system. That was their system. The hamburger is a hamburger. You can get hamburgers everywhere. Yes. Does their hamburger hopefully tastes better than the rest? Yes. I believe our Everbowls, our superfood bowls tastes better than our competitors, and we have our own proprietary flavors that make us confident. But before we even get to that, there’s a business line.
So whether you do restaurants or you do digital marketing, or you do payroll, or you’re elite law practice, or you’re a dental practice, the foundations of business is the same regardless of industry, regardless of sectors. There’s a P&L, there’s a balance sheet, you’ve got to make more money, you have a marketing arm, you have expenses. Can the business survive? And if you’re for-profit business, there’s business fundamentals that are identical across all businesses. And we were solving a problem of capital needs that allowed our P&L to be better and our balance sheet to be better and our cash to go further.
So if we picked 10 restaurants and 1 out of 10 is not a good location, I didn’t sink on My cash into it. And now I have to figure out how to survive. And if that happened to be my second store, it doesn’t put me out of business. There’s just a lot of ways that we’ve de-risked our business and we’ve enabled our franchisees and our current stores to be successful simply because of that implementation of a different system and approaching the problem differently.
Absolutely love that. And you mentioned earlier that you like to go into industries that you have no experience. I think you even made the point that experience is the least important prerequisite for going into an industry. And you sort of answered that question-
Most overrated. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that correction. I think you hit on part of the answer just now when you said it’s important to understand that every business has the same components. You have to understand supply chain management, you have to understand operations and fulfillment and customer service and inventory management and accounting and all those things. And so I assume that part of the reason why you can be successful in any industry is that you have these general business concepts and ideas and pieces well understood.
But what are some of the other things that our listeners who are thinking, okay, I’m going to go into an industry that I know nothing about, to avoid getting themselves in trouble doing that? What are some recommendations you would have for them going into an industry and learning enough about the industry that they can be successful and they can compete, and that they don’t find themselves underwater because of their lack of experience and knowledge?
Sure. Well, let me answer that but give you the first correction just to what you said is I don’t have all those skills. I’m the least handy human being when it comes to tools. But I own a construction and fabrication company because other people can do it. And when you lose the ego and surround yourself with great people, and let them be great at what they do and be the dumbest guy or girl in the room, you can do anything. I could start a podcast if I had the opportunity to partner with the two of you because you guys know how to do it. I don’t. But if we partnered together, I can basically use and stand on your experience and your knowledge and your know-how to be in the same space with you. And that’s how I started a digital marketing agency when I partnered with Neil Patel. He’s one of the world’s most renowned digital marketers. I could barely open a computer in 2012 and use one.
But when you understand that your network is how you do it. And by building bridges and making friends and having fun, going back to those values, you can now enter industries, because as long as you can meet or access the right people, if I don’t have accounting background, well, one of my best friends owns an accounting practice. He helped me launch Everbowl and he was my outsourced CFO and accounting company. And I gave them equity in the company, we partnered and I paid them and they helped me do all the things that I don’t know how to do so I could focus on what I did know how to do. So that’s the first part.
The second part for people who are looking to go into industries without experience and not get into trouble is you still have to solve a problem or have something unique. You don’t want to come in and be a me too business. That’s the mistake I think too many people make and they wonder why they’re not successful. It’s because you do everything the same way. There’s nothing different. So with Everbowl and the quick-serve restaurant space, what problem did we want to solve? I didn’t just come in and say, [inaudible 00:33:13]are delicious and people want to eat them. Well, that’s true, but that’s not solving a problem. That’s just me putting my own taste into the world saying I think people are going to like it.
And I think a lot of restaurateurs are chefs. And as a result of that, they think that way, instead of thinking of it as a business. And to scale a business, you need to solve a problem or have something unique. And so the problem we wanted to solve is, why in America are we not eating right and killing ourselves with bad choices. It’s like smoking, we know smoking is bad for us and hopefully we don’t smoke. There’s nicotine, it’s addicting. Some people are addicted. But each generation is smoking less because we’re aware. Well, heart disease, stroke, obesity, cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, all of these conditions, the science is out. 80% of it is a result of lifestyle, not genetics. So you can either delay or prevent over 80% of these conditions by living a different lifestyle.
We know that, so why are we still eating fast food four times a week on average? The average American, 3.8 meals a week is fast food. Why are we doing that? And when you break down the why and you reverse engineer what that reason is, it’s because of one of four excuses. And these four excuses became the four pillars that we’re trying to solve with Everbowl. And that is one, and in my opinion, they’re just excuses. But people believe eating healthy cost too much. Number two, they think eating healthy doesn’t taste good. Three, they don’t feel like they’re full if they eat healthy, because they envision healthy eating as eating a small little salad, and that cheeseburger and fries and coke fills them up. And then four, they just can’t get it. They’re busy. They have 30 minutes or an hour for lunch. They have this small little area that they work in and they have to eat something there and their options or fast food.
So if we reverse engineer those four excuses and understand that what we’re talking about is cost, taste, filling and accessibility, then all I got to do is build a business around healthy eating that is affordable, filling, delicious and accessible. Hence the four pillars that we’re trying to do at Everbowl. So everything we do, our North Star is those four pillars. Like everything we’re thinking about, every system we’re building from building out WeBuild, that’s accessibility. I can’t build 100 restaurants if they cost me a quarter of a million dollars. I can’t be on every corner where all the fast food guys are if they cost me $300,000 every time to build one. So we had to bring the cost down, hence the idea behind WeBuild, cost.
Well, unfortunately, we don't subsidize healthy food the way we subsidize some of the stuff that's bad for us in America, that's a government programs. We subsidize cattle and all these things so we can eat fried food, it's cheaper and we can make value meals for two, three bucks. Well, okay, so that was the problem. So rather than charge 14 bucks and price out the market, when we launched Everbowl, we were $8 a bowl because a Big Mac meal was $7.94. Two slices of pizza and a drink was $8. A sandwich, chips and a drink at your favorite deli was eight bucks. And so we wanted to reverse engineer our model to get to $8. It's obviously gone up over with inflation and cost of living since 2016. We're closer to about 9.75 now. But the point was, how do we do it?
And so we started doing the same thing that others are doing, which is, we’re importing superfoods from all around the world, so it’s expensive. But we had to understand the supply chain. So we went down to Brazil. I flew down to Brazil, I met with the factories myself, I got to experience everything down there and understand how all of these superfoods are brought to the United States. We launched our own company. It was called Real Happy Foods at the time, it’s now called Unevolve products. And we imported our own superfoods. And we cut out the middleman and middlewomen company so we could control our own supply chain, and take those savings and give it back to our restaurants to give back to our customers to make healthy eating affordable.
The next part was filling, we wanted to give big bowls because we understand the average American eats a lot of food. We’re used to it. We’re used to the big gulp, we’re used to the supersize, we’re used to that whole idea of lots of food, little money. So we had to make big portions. And so as a result, we offer big bowls. And then taste. We do an unlimited toppings. You pick it, you get to create it, very similar to a Chipotle model. But we don’t add more for the guacamole, which for us is peanut butter, you don’t pay for it. It’s one price all your toppings, you decide what you want. You be the architect of your bowl, because if you pick it, you like it, you’re going to … And therefore, it’ll taste good to you.
And so that’s how we’re approaching those four challenges or those four excuses of it costs too much, it doesn’t taste good, it doesn’t fill me up, and I can’t get it. And we’re constantly trying to reinvent our system, our model to solve that. And so I haven’t even mentioned how to make an acai bowl and anything we’ve talked about, which is I started a restaurant chain and I don’t cook and I don’t know how to do it. And that’s okay. But we’re building businesses and solving the problems. And so if you’re looking at an industry with zero experience, what problem are you solving? With my payroll business, at first, I didn’t know what I was doing. I was just competing with ADP because I got mad. But once me and my partner unveiled and said, well, wait, what is the space lacking?
It’s like, well, these computer things are really picking up speed and the internet is becoming part of business. And everyone’s doing things on paper? And when I call HR, they have to pull my file out of an actual filing cabinet and find me and sift through of all this paper. Oh, my god, I lost their W-4 Form and what are we going to do? Hey, I want to take some time off. Well, fill out that form and submit it to HR. And it was like, this is so archaic. There are smartphones and smart devices coming out. And so I was like, “What if we digitize this?” So we built on HRIS platform. I mean, I’m not a coder, but you can find coders, you can find people. And it’s never been easier today than at any time in my lifetime.
I mean, in 2008, there wasn’t YouTube and there wasn’t Udemy, and there wasn’t all of these Etsy, and all of these freelancer.coms and Fiverrs where you can find qualified human beings that are willing to just take on one little job for you, and you can pay them. You had to actually hire human beings to do this and find companies that aren’t very well listed because SEO wasn’t a real thing then. Today, it’s just so easy to find talent. So it’s like if you want to come into an industry, I don’t care what it is, you can overnight learn anything and get access to so many human beings that can solve all these problems that you don’t have the experience for. So don’t wait for the experience, come up with your solution to what problem you’re solving, or what you think could disrupt your market, and then go for it.
I love this. You’ve talked so much about with all the problems that you’re solving with all of the markets that you’re disrupting, that you really make a very concerted effort to reverse engineer everything based on, for example, your four pillars within Everbowl. And as I’m thinking more about the concepts you’re talking about, it keeps coming back to those two core principles you’ve talked about in the beginning, there’s building relationships and having fun. And it sounds a lot like these, when you reverse engineering around these four pillars, that is one of the main things that is really right off the bat by addressing those needs of your customers, that’s really helping you build solid relationships with your customers. I think those are just some amazing examples.
I would love to hear more about some tactical ways you can build great relationships not only with your customers, but you’re clearly phenomenal at building awesome relationships, like you said, with your employees, with your vendors, with your franchisees, with everybody else that’s involved in your ecosystem. So can you give us some really great solid tips on how we can go about building those great relationships to continue growing our success?
Sure, yeah. So inside the company, it’s obviously your culture and understanding who you are. And again, I don’t have all the experience, I was fortunate enough to get to partner with a guy named Brian Augustine, our Chief Development Officer. He joined the company after we had only one store and we were just opening our second store. When I met him through another guy who’s involved in our company, it’s his brother-in-law, what sold me on him immediately was his focus on culture. His background was with Trader Joe’s, and he built out stores, and I realized my weaknesses. A lot of times people hire for comfort, instead of hiring for weaknesses.
I don’t want to hire people who are like me because I’m already part of the company. So we don’t need to have me we need me and then all the things that I’m not good at, let’s bring out great people. And his understanding of how to build those teams and take the culture that we wanted here and duplicate it and scale it was so important. And so when you’re building out teams, having that culture to fall back on, that’s what people work for. And I learned this actually in my recruiting company, because when I had my recruiting agency, I thought, well, you pay someone more money, who wouldn’t change jobs?I figured, hey, everyone’s going to just jump for money. And people don’t change jobs for more money. It’s the number one misnomer in that space.
Any recruiter out there can attest to it. It’s going to be culture and opportunity. That’s why people change jobs. And so when you understand that, building a good culture around your core values internally, has allowed us to scale and grow our team. And then by growing our team and attracting great people allows us to continue to disrupt and the mind pool starts to expand. But then just generally speaking, having your own core values, understanding who you are, and never wavering. I rub some people wrong, but they still, I think, respect me and work with me, because at the end of the day, I will bring my best every day. They are going to get my absolute best. I’m never going to give them second to that. And I’m going to hold them to that standard. And if that rubs you wrong, it rubs you wrong.
I’m not going to feel guilty about pushing people to be the best version of themselves, especially when you partner with me, because I’m subject to your performance and you’re subject to mine. And if I bring my best and I fail, that’s okay. If you bring your best and you fail, that’s okay. But if we fail, because we didn’t try our best, I can’t live with that. And that standard, I think, becomes contagious to others after they get over the shock and awe of it. Because I think a lot of people aren’t used to being pushed to be their best. They think 99% is good enough and why not? But it’s not. And that’s the difference like, the true success lies in that 1%, which is why it’s called the one-percenters.
They talk about why just 1% of the world have all of the resources? Well, some of it is just obviously genetic luck with families you’re born into. But somebody along that lineage understood that, that’s the difference. We can all do 99%. 99% is easy. That last 1% is what makes or breaks companies, relationships, people going that extra mile. And that’s where I, as the CEO of Everbowl and my companies, that’s the standard when people invest with me or join me and partner with me, that’s the standard that I’m going to bring. That is what I’m telling them that they’re getting with me that is my skill because I will require the company to be 100% of our best. And if not, I will find the right people to do it. And I will push people and I’ll be the if I have to be, but I’m going to make friends and have fun doing it. Because if we’re giving our best, we can have as much fun as possible.
And so by putting your foot down on that throttle and going, is where everything … The beauty there is it doesn’t require skill. It doesn’t require, oh my God, I don’t know how to speak that language. So I’m two years away from or I don’t have the resources to do. You can start right now. Like your audience or whoever’s listening, like today, your whole world changes if you just commit to give your absolute best at everything you do starting right now. If you just do that, you will be successful, because you will beat so many people who are more talented, more capable, more qualified, have more opportunity than you because you never quit. And we learn all these in those little fable stories that you teach children.
I feel like you can learn so much from kids. Because it’s amazing how parents teach kids the right thing, and then we don’t do it. It’s like do what we say but not what we do. Like, learning to walk. If kids quit as easily as adults, no one would walk. Because you fall down 7,000 times when you’re a little toddler. But you eventually learn to walk. And we as adults, we stumble a few times and then we quit. This is too hard. I’m going to do something else. I’m not good at that. That’s not my gift. It’s like no, no, no, don’t quit. Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn, but just keep going. One of the other core values at Everbowl and for me personally is, get 1% better every day. It’s something that’s obtainable. It’s part of the success formula is win stacking micro goals, because you can build success with micro goals.
It’s like if you’re sitting on the couch today and you want to run a marathon and you’ve never exercised, it’s a very daunting goal. And so if you go out and try to run two miles today, your knees are going to hurt, your ankles are going to hurt, you’re not going to work out tomorrow. If I’m not going to work out the next day, you might do it again, and then be like, oh my god, I’m not cut out for this. But what if today all you did was just put on the workout clothes. And then tomorrow, you walk or run to your mailbox. And then the next day, you walk or run to your next door neighbor’s mailbox. And the day after that you walk or run to your third neighbor’s mailbox. And every day you just go one more mailbox until you decide you want to go more than one mailbox. You can do
that. Nothing there is stopping. There’s nothing that would keep you from getting there. And whether it’s a week from today, or a year from today, or five years from today, eventually, you’re going to be at 26.2 miles worth of mailboxes, and you’ll run your marathon and you will have achieved the goal. And so part of my success formula is not putting an arbitrary time limit on it. Because when you put time on something, you’re not allowing your own progress to happen and things are going to happen. You’re going to get sick, life’s going to get in the way, challenges will happen.
And so micro goals in win stacking and getting 1% better every day is attainable for everybody, wherever you’re starting. And you will continue. And by doing that every day religiously with your full intention, 100% best effort, you will get to success, you will get to where you want to go. And 10 years are going to happen whether you do what I’m saying or not, it’s just the question of where you want to be in 10 years.
I absolutely love that. And I love the idea of getting 1% better every day, because we have to remember that there are compound effects at work here. And in 100 days, you’re not going to be 100% better, you’re going to be a whole lot more than 100% better in 100 days, because that 1% is compounding. I love it. I could talk to you all day, Jeff. This is just amazing tips and advice and expertise. I mean, you look like you’re 20 years old, but even at 37, I mean, this is just a tremendous amount of wisdom.
We need to jump into the last segment of the show that we call Four More. But before we do that, you mentioned earlier that you have a book coming out pretty soon. And I just want to give you an opportunity to mention that. You mentioned it’s called The Relationship Bank Account. Can you tell us who that’s going to be geared towards? When you expect that to be coming out? Anything else you want to tell us about the book?
Sure, yeah. I mean, it supposed to come out Q1, but COVID kind of derailed that a little bit, so I’m hoping it’s going to go live Q2. It’s geared towards everybody. It’s based off my LinkedIn Learning course on leveraging relationship capital, building and developing relationships and how to use them to grow and scale. It’s my secret sauce. If someone says, hey, what’s your secret? It’s who I know and it’s the people that I have around me and understanding that everybody can build those. But most people don’t realize how, because they approach it wrong. And it’s hopefully going to open up your mind and create an environment for you to start embracing and attracting good people, which will elevate you personally, professionally, and in so many different areas where you’ll be able to achieve all of the financial goals that you have for yourself, your company’s goals.
Everbowl, specifically, if you look at what we’re doing as a company and where we are, I’d be lying if I said to you I’m not where I am. But for the people I know, it’s true. But I’ve earned the right to have those people help me because of leading with value. Some of the tidbits is being more interested than interesting, and leading with value when you meet people, and not looking at relationships the way we do as. And it sounds a little gross when I first say it, but just bear with me and be open-minded, but treat it like a bank account, because they are. And so if you are always making withdrawals from your relationships, you run out of money, just like you would if you took money out of your bank every day. You’ve got to make deposits. And you make deposits by leading with value to help people and understanding how you can help people.
Like, I can’t help Bill Gates make money, he doesn’t need my money. That’s not the area of health that I can add value to Bill Gates. But Bill Gates has charitable events that are near and dear to his heart. And he’s got things at him and the Melinda Gates Foundation are part of. And so if I wanted to get with Bill Gates, I would try to figure out what I can do to add value to what is important to Bill and Melinda. And then focus my efforts to do that to make a deposit with him and her. So then one day, if I needed withdrawal, hopefully I’ve built up an account balance that I can use it. And understanding that if you don’t ever need it, it’s no big deal.
So like you run into 95 people every single day, just go into the grocery store in the gas station. And if you just communicate and see if you can help someone and you hear through The Grapevine that your next door neighbor’s cousin is looking to get a job in Dallas, Texas, and you know someone in Dallas, Texas, and you make that introduction, it costs you nothing. But what you did is you just made a deposit with a human being out there who may or may not ever help you. But who cares? I don’t want to be rich, I want to be wealthy. I don’t want money for the sake of money, I want to be wealthy in life. And part of that wealth is relationship wealth.
And when you have a lot of people who are championing for you and that person in Dallas, all of a sudden we opened an Everbowl in Dallas, and that person works at 100 person company goes, oh my god, my friend just opened this restaurant right down the street and brings their entire group of 100 people to that restaurant. I earned that by introducing them to someone six years ago. That just happens. And then I get lucky. And luck is a byproduct of preparation and opportunity in a focus to build and create luck. Think of it like fishing. If you have one line in the water, you’re hoping the fish comes by and bites. What if you have 100 lines in the water at all times? You’re more likely to get lucky and get a fish.
And so the more humans that you have out in the world that are champions for you, and your businesses, and your ideas, and your causes, and your missions, and your family, the more likely that you’re going to know so and so. And when you think about life, in general, we all know so and so got that job because they’re so and so’s brother or sister or they’re someone’s best friend. True. Nepotism is huge in this world. And so use it and use it by developing and creating relationships. And when you mentally think about them as a bank account, not because you should be thinking about it so selfishly like I need to use this person, no. Think of it as I’m making deposits for one day. And if I never use it, so what?
So I’m just known as a good human being for these 100 people that I’ve helped, and they have no extra value to me. I don’t need anything from them, but I’ve done a good by them, okay. They’re going to go around the world hopefully saying nice things about me, and nice things about my brand and be open-minded to ideas that I throw out into the world and you build your army, you build your you build your tribe of champions. And that’s how you can add that extra layer to your success in life by having champions out there who are constantly thinking about you, even when you’re not putting in that work. And that’s the passive income from your relationship bank account.
Awesome. I absolutely love it. Okay. I think it’s time for the final segment of the show, which we call the Four More, and that’s where we’re going to ask you real quick the same four questions that we ask all of our guests. And then the more part of the Four More, we’re going to let you tell our listeners where they can connect with you, find out more about you and anything else you want to tell us. Sounds good?
Okay. What was your very first or your very worst job? And what lessons did you take from it that you’re still using today?
So my very worst job was actually working at Walter Anderson’s nursery, moving rose bushes as manual labor when I was 15 years old. First day I came home and my entire hands were cut up from touching these rose bushes until the next day when I was told by somebody I showed up again, and somebody said, “Why don’t you wear these gloves that are sitting over here in this corner?” And it taught me a lesson that maybe I should be more aware and observant of what’s around me and not just be so … I was a 15-year-old male not paying attention to anything but what was in front of me. And so it taught me the lesson to look around and measure twice, cut once kind of a thing and protect yourself. So that was the idea of helping to learn and be aware.
Love, love, love it. Okay. Question number two. All right. So Jeff, 30 seconds or less, what is the very, very best piece of advice that you have for small business owners or entrepreneurs that you have not yet mentioned today?
Understand the power of four minutes. So if you do something for four minutes a day, over the course of a year, that’s going to add days to your life and days to your skill set. And so don’t hit the snooze button because snooze is eight minutes. You’re wasting calendar days a year doing things. So because I only a 30 seconds, I won’t dig deep, but just do some math. Type 4 minutes times 365 and divide it by 60 and you’ll see how many hours a day you’re wasting, and recognize that if you spend four minutes learning a new skill or a new thing, at the end of the year, you’re going to be really good at it.
Jeff, I can’t wait to get my hands on your book. You have so many amazing nuggets of wisdom. J, take number three.
Okay. Number three. I imagine you’re a reader. I imagine you love books. If you could recommend one book that maybe our listeners haven’t been recommended by a million people already, what’s your favorite not tremendously popular book?
So I don’t think it’s that popular because a lot of people never heard of it. But it’s from Tim Grover. It’s Relentless from going from … Basically, it’s about being unstoppable and relentless, and he was the coach, mindset coach for Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan.
Very cool. We’ll link that one in the show notes for sure. Okay, fourth and favorite fun question. What is something, Jeff, along the way, either for one of your businesses or for your family or just somewhere in any facet of your life that you have splurged on that was totally and entirely worth it?
Yeah. I would say that probably vacations. I go a little above and beyond when we take them. I like to make sure that I seize the opportunity or carpe diem them. So if there are things that I have to try, even if it’s like ridiculously expensive, and you’re like, am I really going to go eat at this restaurant that costs way too much money? But if it’s this one that you have to try. So I’ve definitely done that with my wife and kids. So experiential, for sure.
Jeff, this has been absolutely amazing. Tremendous wisdom, tremendous knowledge. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing. Best of luck with Everbowl. And before we log off, I do want to do the more part of the Four More and give you the opportunity to tell our listeners where they can connect with you, where they can find out more about you and your businesses, anything else you want to tell us.
Sure. Yeah. Obviously social media is the easiest and best. So, @fensterjeff on the traditional social media platforms. You can email me, [email protected] or connect at jefffenster.com. If you’re interested in Everbowl and want to join our Ever family that’s growing quickly across the country, we’d love to meet you. So you can go to everbowl.com and click on franchise tab and we can obviously get a conversation going there or on LinkedIn as anyone who wants one of my two courses can hit me up. And yeah, I look forward to meeting more people and continuing to make friends and have some fun.
Awesome. Jeff, thank you so much. We so appreciate you being here and we look forward to talking to you again soon.
Thank you, guys. It was such a pleasure.
Thanks, Jeff. See you soon. Oh, my goodness. You knew I was going to say that. But seriously, how awesome is Jeff? I especially loved his concept of re-engineering everything in reverse, so that you’re not competing with what’s already out there. You’re determining what the pain points are, what the problems are, what is going on upfront, and then building your business backwards to make sure that those customer needs can be met. And by doing that, you are building relationships and making friends along the way that just helps your business and adjacent businesses grow and prosper.
Yeah, absolutely. There’s so many great little nuggets in there in this episode. Just a few of my favorites, make friends and have fun. It’s all about relationship capital and building your network. Most people think it’s money that’s stopping them, but it’s not. Hard work beats talent every time and get 1% better every day. I mean, just a few of the simple things that when you think about them are obvious. But so few of us actually take the time to think about these things in our business and realize that these little things, these little changes can really make the difference between success and failure long term. I loved this episode. I loved all the wisdom. I loved all the advice.
Loved it. Okay, let’s wrap it up. Baby, I’ve got some chocolate chip cookies. Chocolate chip cookies supervision, I think, is what’s going to happen next.
We have to supervise too?
Hey, whatever. Again, little parts. All right, let’s go, let’s go.
Thank you, everybody.
Let’s finish this episode.
Thank you, everybody, for tuning in. Have an amazing rest of your week. Stay warm, and we will see you next week on the BiggerPockets Business Podcast. See you.
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