Would You Buy for Cashflow Only?

Would You Buy for Cashflow Only?

Rental Property Investor · Olney, MD · Member since 2019 · 32 posts · 10 votes

The area: Sandusky, OH 44870.

The local economy: tied to the seasonal fluctuations of Cedar Point, an amusement park. Most major blue-collar jobs have left leaving a primarily services-based economy around Cedar Point tourists.

Background: I grew up there (live in Maryland now) and have seen my childhood neighborhood get taken over by the Firelands Regional Medical Center and have seen the surrounding area properties fall into disrepair. I have a team in place: agent, prop mgmt company, handyman, lawyer, et al. 

When I buy, I pay cash. I'm fortunate enough to own a couple tech companies that permit me that option. My goal is to find income producing assets for retirement. My two options today are between triple tax-free bond funds from T Rowe Price or incoming producing properties.

I have found a number of cash flowing properties that beat the tax-free return from the bond funds. My CPA created a spreadsheet for me that will calculate the return on these properties by taking into account my current tax rate (the highest) and the tax savings from the depreciation on these properties. When comparing the two returns, I want as close to apples vs apples as possible.

In light of all that, would anyone invest in cash flowing rentals when the potential appreciation is little to non-existent given the goal is cashflow only?

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Joe VilleneuvePro Member
Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
7y

Yes, but you still have to analyze that deal.  It's all about the deal you make, and how much you are actually paying for the property.

If you're paying all cash, you won't start making a profit until you recover all of it...in your case, from the cash flow.  If you buy a property all cash for $150k, and the cash flow (no loan) is $10k/year, it will take you 15 years (all going perfect) to recover your money spent...and then you start profiting.  Until then, all you're doing is getting your own money back in small (very small) pieces.

If you put 20% down instead, subtracting the mortgage payments, you could be getting $7k/year in cash flow.  That means you would recover all your cash, and start profiting, in year 5.  By the time you start profiting the all cash deal 10 years after), you would have profited $35k already...on just the one house.

Now the fun begins.  Take that same $150k, and put a down payment on 5 houses.  You end up cash flowing $35k/yr, instead of only $10k...spending the same money...and, all 5 houses recover their DP in 4 years.  So, by the time your all cash deal starts making a profit (11 years worth), you would have already profited around $385k.

Can that other investment do that?

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  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 91 posts · 23 votes
    7y

    @Terry Dunlap of it doesn’t cash flow I would t buy it. Equity is just icing on the cake honestly but the numbers always need to make sense.

  • Rental Property Investor · NJ · Member since 2016 · 36 posts · 25 votes
    7y

    @Terry Dunlap a mentor once said "with my first step I'm a buyer, with my second step I'm a seller". Even if it doesn't appreciate, can you at least sell it later on? I don't like to see high DOMs across the board. Makes me too nervous that I can't exit when I want to

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 9 votes
    7y

    @Joe Villeneuve cash flows affords me the ability to do alot, but without the appreciation I'm not getting the full value of my asset for what I'm doing. If the asset is appreciating then im doing my job because the community itself is appreciating.

    Think of a developer. Their job is to create value not just extract.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Jim K.@Jay Hinrichs@JD Martin

    You guys have hit on the cons to having a large SFR portfolio and an issue that isn't addressed on BP. The common refrains of Cash Flow is King, appreciation is a bonus, set up systems to scale quickly, brings with them two underappreciated facts.

    1. having more than 10-20 rentals becomes another JOB. You most certainly work for you money.

    2. When you do have that carefully constructed portfolio of 50 rentals each cash-flowing $200/month, it is extremely illiquid. Jim and I have talked before about strategies to convert a SFR portfolio to something else and it can be done, but it takes planing, patience, and time. I do think the big players moving into the SFR space, such as Invitation Homes, presents anther option for the SFR landlord to liquidate their portfolio en-mass. However, that plan brings with it a whole other bag of worms.

    That is not to say that SFRs are bad, but much like a dog chasing a car, you need to have a plan for what you'll do when you catch the car. If you get burnt out, you will have to take a large haircut to unload your properties or wait a long time to maximize value. There are some significant trade-offs to exit the investments.

    @Casey Powers I guess we will agree to disagree. In all of my experience, it take time and skill to manage employees/contractors/professional. An exceedingly small number of people are capable of operating completely autonomously and those that can still require clear and effective tasking; a skill that most leaders lack. 

  • Brookfield, WI · Member since 2016 · 191 posts · 108 votes
    7y

    short answer: Yes, but not that scenario.  

    Long answer, yes, but only for much higher cash flow and an area with "little" appreciation, as in, it is not likely to depress MORE.

    I do wonder though, could you instead turn those houses for seasonal weekly rentals instead of $400/month long term tenants.  We used to drive down to Sandusky, camp or stay a night in a hotel after we hit cedar point and head back up in the morning.  (or sometimes, cut out a bit early and drive back to Detroit at night).  Now, if we could get a nicer house for say, $250 for the weekend, there are other things to do that we never bothered to due to the quick turn around...still sounds like more work, since you have cash available, seems like some leveraged MF units in some nice "B" area's would be better.  It doesn't have to be local.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Bill F.:

    @Jim K.@Jay Hinrichs@JD Martin

    You guys have hit on the cons to having a large SFR portfolio and an issue that isn't addressed on BP. The common refrains of Cash Flow is King, appreciation is a bonus, set up systems to scale quickly, brings with them two underappreciated facts.

    1. having more than 10-20 rentals becomes another JOB. You most certainly work for you money.

    2. When you do have that carefully constructed portfolio of 50 rentals each cash-flowing $200/month, it is extremely illiquid. Jim and I have talked before about strategies to convert a SFR portfolio to something else and it can be done, but it takes planing, patience, and time. I do think the big players moving into the SFR space, such as Invitation Homes, presents anther option for the SFR landlord to liquidate their portfolio en-mass. However, that plan brings with it a whole other bag of worms.

    That is not to say that SFRs are bad, but much like a dog chasing a car, you need to have a plan for what you'll do when you catch the car. If you get burnt out, you will have to take a large haircut to unload your properties or wait a long time to maximize value. There are some significant trade-offs to exit the investments.

    @Casey Powers I guess we will agree to disagree. In all of my experience, it take time and skill to manage employees/contractors/professional. An exceedingly small number of people are capable of operating completely autonomously and those that can still require clear and effective tasking; a skill that most leaders lack. 

    the bigger hedgefunds though wont buy low end rentals they want or are buying that solid B class at the median price point.. we saw that in ATL when they first started buying courthouse steps and we were active there.. they tried some lower value C class and quickly left those behind as they realized being a big machine they  were not feasible from a management standpoint.  there are a couple that will deal with the lower value assets.. but they know they drive a hard bargin for certain..  one can try roofstock  they started selling larger portfolios between hedge funds.. but I have had a few of my clients that have 100 to 200 SFRs list on their site with no Joy. 

  • Lender · Long Island, NY · Member since 2019 · 20 posts · 11 votes
    7y

    Terry I'd leverage myself out with loans and never outright own a property all cash. You leave money on the table by not using leverage to extend your reach. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    If your talking about cashflow property in Ohio for $30k and get $700 in rent for a 3/1 then who cares if you sell for $30k in 20 yrs or $20k, you have moved $168,000 in gross rent, $84,000 @ 50% expense.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jason Hyman:

    @Joe Villeneuve cash flows affords me the ability to do alot, but without the appreciation I'm not getting the full value of my asset for what I'm doing. If the asset is appreciating then im doing my job because the community itself is appreciating.

    Think of a developer. Their job is to create value not just extract.

    I have done developing.  All I'm saying is, the cash flow you're not valuing enough, is what can accelerate your control over areas and force appreciation where it currently lies stagnant. 

  • Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2018 · 403 posts · 474 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Bill F.:

    @Jim K.@Jay Hinrichs@JD Martin

    @Casey Powers I guess we will agree to disagree. In all of my experience, it take time and skill to manage employees/contractors/professional. An exceedingly small number of people are capable of operating completely autonomously and those that can still require clear and effective tasking; a skill that most leaders lack. 

    If you are "tasking" a property manager, again, something is wrong. Either you've hired an incompetent, or you're trying to micromanage the manager, which is just plain silly. Let the manager manage. That's what they're for. Micromanagers make the absolute worst leaders.

  • Real Estate Agent · Stockton, CA · Member since 2019 · 11 posts · 7 votes
    7y

    @Joe Villeneuve

  • Martin NealPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 293 posts · 383 votes
    7y

    @Terry Dunlap Yes I would and yes I am. I currently buy Class C properties so I am buying exclusively for cash flow on the south side of Chicago.

  • Martin NealPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 293 posts · 383 votes
    7y

    @Terry Dunlap Yes I would and yes I am. I currently buy Class C properties so I am buying exclusively for cash flow on the south side of Chicago.

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 9 votes
    7y

    @Joe Villeneuve I'm valuing everything I need too. Thanks

  • Rental Property Investor · Douglas County, MO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @George Gammon:

    What I'd like to do first is address the misconception that I've seen on this thread that somehow you have to make your money back on a property before you make a profit.

    This might be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.  If you buy a bond, stock, or gold do you not make a profit until your paid enough interest or dividends to recoup your initial investment?  As if the asset you purchased is worth nothing.  Let's think about this.  You have 150k in the bank so your net worth is 150k...if you buy a 150k home is your net worth now 0? or is it still 150k?  

    If this were true, the IRS wouldn't tax your cash flow because "its not profit." 

    Bottom line: Ignore this nonsense.  If you buy a cash flowing prop the positive cash flow is profit, just like the interest earned from a savings account is profit.  

    This is very close to what I was going to say. I consider my houses to be a bank account, and the cash flow is interest. Yes, the work involved is greater, but so is the interest!

  • Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2014 · 25 posts · 0 votes
    7y

    Im new to investing and want to buy a duplex in the Myrtle Beach area to capitalize on the snowbirds from Canada.

    Any advice on if this is a good way to start investing?

  • Rental Property Investor · Beavercreek OH · Member since 2018 · 422 posts · 970 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Bill F.:

    @Jim K.@Jay Hinrichs@JD Martin

    You guys have hit on the cons to having a large SFR portfolio and an issue that isn't addressed on BP. The common refrains of Cash Flow is King, appreciation is a bonus, set up systems to scale quickly, brings with them two underappreciated facts.

    1. having more than 10-20 rentals becomes another JOB. You most certainly work for you money.

    2. When you do have that carefully constructed portfolio of 50 rentals each cash-flowing $200/month, it is extremely illiquid. Jim and I have talked before about strategies to convert a SFR portfolio to something else and it can be done, but it takes planing, patience, and time. I do think the big players moving into the SFR space, such as Invitation Homes, presents anther option for the SFR landlord to liquidate their portfolio en-mass. However, that plan brings with it a whole other bag of worms.

    That is not to say that SFRs are bad, but much like a dog chasing a car, you need to have a plan for what you'll do when you catch the car. If you get burnt out, you will have to take a large haircut to unload your properties or wait a long time to maximize value. There are some significant trade-offs to exit the investments.

    @Casey Powers I guess we will agree to disagree. In all of my experience, it take time and skill to manage employees/contractors/professional. An exceedingly small number of people are capable of operating completely autonomously and those that can still require clear and effective tasking; a skill that most leaders lack. 

     Bill,

    Sorry I totally disagree. I have 80+ SFR's all paid for plus 25 multi doors. At this scale I have a full time handyman and part-time employee who handles property management. This includes advertising and leasing the units when they become vacant.

    I find SFR's are about as liquid as any real estate there is.  Easy to sell and easy to finance.

    Further, if this is a job, it's the easiest one on the planet grossing a million a year.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Gary L Wallman

    First off congrats on your success. I'm sure its due in no small part to your own hard work, dedication, and perseverance.

    I agree with you that a single SFR's is probably the most liquid REI that exists. However a portfolio of SFR's is what I was referring to as illiquid. How long do you think it would take for you to sell your entire portfolio at +/- 5% of today's fair market value net fees?

    As for the job, you strike me as the exception rather than the rule and/or someone who truly loves what they are doing. What I don't see a lot of "passive rental crowd" talking about when they referenced their 50 doors it will take to get them to $10k/month or whatever their goal happens to be, is the SG&A expenses that you have mentioned like an assistant and handyman. All of those take away from the mailbox money aspect of SFR investing and require more rentals to support the fixed costs, which then drives more time requirements if one's not careful.

    @Jay Hinrichs great point about the hedge funds not wanting C-D class rentals. They probably aren't an option for guys in the trenches like @Jim K., but could be an option for others whose rentals fit the bill. 

  • Corby GoadeBusiness Member
    Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    There is no right answer- every market, investor and their resources are different. That said, I like a little of both. The cash flow pays for the ongoing expenses and takes care of your debt service. The appreciation allows you to scale and reach bigger, better goals. If you only have cash flow with limited appreciation, lack of equity will severely impact your ability to leverage and grow. If you only have appreciation, your DTI will suffer and getting a loan will prove to be difficult.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Bill F.:

    @Gary L Wallman

    First off congrats on your success. I'm sure its due in no small part to your own hard work, dedication, and perseverance.

    I agree with you that a single SFR's is probably the most liquid REI that exists. However a portfolio of SFR's is what I was referring to as illiquid. How long do you think it would take for you to sell your entire portfolio at +/- 5% of today's fair market value net fees?

    As for the job, you strike me as the exception rather than the rule and/or someone who truly loves what they are doing. What I don't see a lot of "passive rental crowd" talking about when they referenced their 50 doors it will take to get them to $10k/month or whatever their goal happens to be, is the SG&A expenses that you have mentioned like an assistant and handyman. All of those take away from the mailbox money aspect of SFR investing and require more rentals to support the fixed costs, which then drives more time requirements if one's not careful.

    @Jay Hinrichs great point about the hedge funds not wanting C-D class rentals. They probably aren't an option for guys in the trenches like @Jim K., but could be an option for others whose rentals fit the bill. 

    the key to this is they are all paid for..  that takes a huge amount of stress off of a portfolio compared to the refi to you die max debt crowd that is the prevailing wisdom on BP..  I mean look at Gary sitting on all that dead equity  LOL..  Congrats Gary all the most successful landlords I know have if not all but most of their portfolios paid for or almost.. And if I was in your market I would have done the same thing buy those houses for the price of used cars for cash and keep stacking them.. at some point you had to have income or cash to do this from some other source.. you cant buy one house for cash and then stack that rent and buy another..  Or in the case of the folks I know they were west coast Hawaii investors who rode massive appreciation gains and rolled into new deals with limited or no debt..  

  • London · Member since 2019 · 722 posts · 386 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:
    Originally posted by @Bill F.:

    @Jim K.@Jay Hinrichs@JD Martin

    You guys have hit on the cons to having a large SFR portfolio and an issue that isn't addressed on BP. The common refrains of Cash Flow is King, appreciation is a bonus, set up systems to scale quickly, brings with them two underappreciated facts.

    1. having more than 10-20 rentals becomes another JOB. You most certainly work for you money.

    2. When you do have that carefully constructed portfolio of 50 rentals each cash-flowing $200/month, it is extremely illiquid. Jim and I have talked before about strategies to convert a SFR portfolio to something else and it can be done, but it takes planing, patience, and time. I do think the big players moving into the SFR space, such as Invitation Homes, presents anther option for the SFR landlord to liquidate their portfolio en-mass. However, that plan brings with it a whole other bag of worms.

    That is not to say that SFRs are bad, but much like a dog chasing a car, you need to have a plan for what you'll do when you catch the car. If you get burnt out, you will have to take a large haircut to unload your properties or wait a long time to maximize value. There are some significant trade-offs to exit the investments.

    @Casey Powers I guess we will agree to disagree. In all of my experience, it take time and skill to manage employees/contractors/professional. An exceedingly small number of people are capable of operating completely autonomously and those that can still require clear and effective tasking; a skill that most leaders lack. 

     Bill,

    Sorry I totally disagree. I have 80+ SFR's all paid for plus 25 multi doors. At this scale I have a full time handyman and part-time employee who handles property management. This includes advertising and leasing the units when they become vacant.

    I find SFR's are about as liquid as any real estate there is.  Easy to sell and easy to finance.

    Further, if this is a job, it's the easiest one on the planet grossing a million a year.

    Well said Gary.

    Once you have success, the goal becomes having more time to things you enjoy rather than working harder. The shift can easily mean fewer tenants by more 'free and clear' properties.

    The old 'model' was to own 20 properties until they doubled in value. Assume 100% debt when you purchased each one. If the properties have doubled, you sell approximately half and pay off the other half. You will have 1/2 the tenant management and the same income with no risk that a bank will mess you around. You are almost interest rate agnostic. Keep the maintenance ticking over and keep the units occupied while you get on with the rest of your life. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Beavercreek OH · Member since 2018 · 422 posts · 970 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Bill F.:

    @Gary L Wallman

    First off congrats on your success. I'm sure its due in no small part to your own hard work, dedication, and perseverance.

    I agree with you that a single SFR's is probably the most liquid REI that exists. However a portfolio of SFR's is what I was referring to as illiquid. How long do you think it would take for you to sell your entire portfolio at +/- 5% of today's fair market value net fees?

    As for the job, you strike me as the exception rather than the rule and/or someone who truly loves what they are doing. What I don't see a lot of "passive rental crowd" talking about when they referenced their 50 doors it will take to get them to $10k/month or whatever their goal happens to be, is the SG&A expenses that you have mentioned like an assistant and handyman. All of those take away from the mailbox money aspect of SFR investing and require more rentals to support the fixed costs, which then drives more time requirements if one's not careful.

    @Jay Hinrichs great point about the hedge funds not wanting C-D class rentals. They probably aren't an option for guys in the trenches like @Jim K., but could be an option for others whose rentals fit the bill. 

    the key to this is they are all paid for..  that takes a huge amount of stress off of a portfolio compared to the refi to you die max debt crowd that is the prevailing wisdom on BP..  I mean look at Gary sitting on all that dead equity  LOL..  Congrats Gary all the most successful landlords I know have if not all but most of their portfolios paid for or almost.. And if I was in your market I would have done the same thing buy those houses for the price of used cars for cash and keep stacking them.. at some point you had to have income or cash to do this from some other source.. you cant buy one house for cash and then stack that rent and buy another..  Or in the case of the folks I know they were west coast Hawaii investors who rode massive appreciation gains and rolled into new deals with limited or no debt..  

    Jay,

    True.  I'm in the car business first and foremost.  While the capital I diverted from that business arguably could have produced even more income staying where it was, I felt I needed some diversification.  That plus the miser in me couldn't resist buying 20 dollar bills for 10 bucks. This was what the 2008-2016 markets were to me.  Didn't need much appreciation, just a return to normalcy.  We got that plus a lot of value add through renovations and we are sitting on a pretty nice asset. Like you, I prefer sitting on my assets then just sitting on my a**. LOL.

  • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Yes as a newbie to real estate investing, I would love to buy just for the cash flow. 

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