Is it impossible to overcome a minor mold issue?
Rental Property Investor · Biloxi, MS · Member since 2019 · 28 posts · 1 vote
Is it impossible to overcome a minor mold issue?
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Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6yAll right, that's it. BP moderators, please check the facts.
I'm calling you out, Jeremy.
You know a whole lot of hype about mold and very little about the realities. I don't know if you make money off mold remediation and magic special cleaning solution and negative pressure devices and expensive pink-colored P100 respirator cartridges and how awful bleach is and the whole rest of the mold remediation con. I don't know if you were taken in by it and now spend your days as a holy apostle for residential indoor mold remediation, as many do.
But this is all scare tactics and charlatan hype. Mold in construction has been around since the beginning of construction. Every single structure ever built by a human being has mold in it. We eat mold in cheese, soy sauce, vinegar, beer, and have been doing it for thousands of years. Stop spreading the scare and selling the remediation.
The current mold remediation scare stems from a CDC statement in the 1990s that a number of Cleveland infants got sick from immense concentrations of a specific variety of rare black mold found in their home. This rare black mold produces and lets off compounds called mycotoxins. Later studies have found no medically significant evidence of the link between mycotoxins and various illnesses attributed by scaremongers to it.
Anyone who's interested can find evidence of this online. Don't believe the paranoia, don't spread the ignorance. Here's a study from 2010.
Elena H. Page & Douglas B. Trout (2001) The Role of Stachybotrys Mycotoxins in Building-Related Illness, AIHAJ - American Industrial Hygiene Association, 62:5, 644-648, DOI: 10.1080/15298660108984664
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15298660108984664
On a more general note, here's what the CDC says about mold today:
Here's what the EPA says about mold today:
A Brief Guide to Mold, Moisture and Your Home
War is not peace, freedom is not slavery, ignorance is not strength.
33 Replies
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Michael King:
I used to use bleach in swimming pool (no longer own a pool). I had a liquid chlorine feeder that would take 4 gallons of liquid chlorine and inject it when chlorine was low. Liquid chlorine is @ 12% Sodium Hypochlorite and the bleach you can get at Walmart for $2 a gallon is 8.25%. Versus $8-$12 a gallon for chlorine.
If you have a septic system, I recall being told to pour some occasional bleach into it.
Actually, it's best to limit chlorine as much as possible in a septic system, since it relies on bacterial activity to break down the solids. Just general exposure to chlorine, like what's in your water lines, or doing laundry, is ok but I wouldn't purposely pour it down the drain.
Skyline Properties - Rental Property Investor · Navarre, FL · Member since 2019 · 913 posts · 640 votes6y
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
Originally posted by @Michael King:
I used to use bleach in swimming pool (no longer own a pool). I had a liquid chlorine feeder that would take 4 gallons of liquid chlorine and inject it when chlorine was low. Liquid chlorine is @ 12% Sodium Hypochlorite and the bleach you can get at Walmart for $2 a gallon is 8.25%. Versus $8-$12 a gallon for chlorine.
If you have a septic system, I recall being told to pour some occasional bleach into it.
Actually, it's best to limit chlorine as much as possible in a septic system, since it relies on bacterial activity to break down the solids. Just general exposure to chlorine, like what's in your water lines, or doing laundry, is ok but I wouldn't purposely pour it down the drain.
Yes you're right I was told a small amount, and there was an appropriate place to put it, and how often. Like a cup, maybe, I don't remember much of the details, and I never ended up doing it.
- Rental Property Investor · Navarre, FL · Member since 2019 · 913 posts · 640 votes6y
I have my own mold stories. In 2015 I had a contractor add a 1000 sf extension onto my home. He tore down an entire external wall while I was working in Africa; the wife and kids were home. He didn't prepare it adequately for weather and over the course of the weekend it rained hard and flooded half the house to about a 2" depth of water. Got under my expensive engineered hardwood that started buckling. He ended up replacing the flooring, but by the time the idiot got around to doing it all three bedrooms had thick black mold growing under the underlay, on the concrete slab (in Texas). When he didn't show up as promised to clean it up, I went to town with straight bleach and eradicated that crap. Took me 6 hours to clean it up. Needless to say there was $10,000 that I withheld from the contract.
Fast forward to this year, and the finished basement at my present home. The previous owner had scrubbed thick black mold off the laundry walls and painted over it. I know because when I pulled the baseboard back, it was thick black mold behind it that contrasted with the fresh paint so perfectly it was like a Hiroshima shadow. A mold remediation company wanted $1200 to tear out the bottom 2' of sheet rock and clean the AC ducts. When he said there's more mold in the air outside than inside, I wondered why I needed a pro to do this for me? I tore out the sheetrock myself and worked on cleaning up the mold spores that had found their way around the rest of the basement with bleach. This was the result of a leaking pipe in the laundry. 6 months later, no mold has returned, but I still have several areas where the idiot painted directly over the mold that I have deferred fixing until I'm ready. The previous owner is a custom home builder and some places he has repaired water damaged sheet rock with caulk, like large amounts of caulk. It's crazy, and the twilight zone moment is all the neighbors talk about him like he is the world's best home builder. He sure had them fooled.
Find and fix your water source, repair the damage, clean up the mold, and you should be just fine. Straight bleach is my choice of cleaner.
- Rental Property Investor · ME · Member since 2018 · 179 posts · 59 votes6y
Originally posted by @Michael King:
Originally posted by @Jeremy A.:
Bleach is carcinogenic
You had me worried there. A quick google search shows bunches of websites declaring bleach is not carcinogenic. Not sure where you're from, but I'm sure if it's California bleach, it probably is carcinogenic. What's that Prop 65 or something? Even wearing a backpack gives you cancer over there.
So I'm not doubting you, but I'd like to know where you got the information it was carcinogenic from? My limited googling is probably wrong.
Also, looking at the FEMA website I see where FEMA does not recommend using bleach over 5.25% Sodium Hypochlorite. I'm not doing exhaustive research, but maybe you could clarify at least for me? I love bleach and have found it does get rid of mold long term. As others say, eliminate the moisture source and that's most of the battle.
HELLO MY BIGGER POCKETS FORUM RESPONDERS….especially those unloving uncaring ones with huge egos. Heres my r
Last reply on subject. Dont delete this moderators the life it saves could be yours...
First The sources of mold problems in your home or office can be: flooding, leaky roofs, humidifiers, damp crawl spaces, constant plumbing leaks, excessive numbers of house plants, steam from cooking, shower/bath steam, wet clothes, and even your air conditioning system itself.
MOLD can be very toxic ESPECIALLY Stachybotrys Chartarum ESPECIALLY a certain subset of the population. Those especially susceptible include the elderly, the young and those who are immune compromised. do you know which landlord meets these requirements? Neither do i.
If you fit into one of those categories, cleaning up a mold problem could exacerbate any symptoms you’ve been experiencing because of the problem and could, in some instances, even create new health problem.
PLEASE DONT ADD EXTRA CHEMICAL or Pesticide TO YOUR ENVIRONMENT or house or future home of tenant.
The truth is, recommending or using undiluted sodium hypochlorite aka "bleach" to kill mold for new inexperienced person is probably one of the worst things you can do to new landlords in ANY PUBLIC FORUM WHERE YOU DONT KNOW SERIOUSNESS OF SITUATION or health of user ESPECIALLY with VACANT HOUSE WITH water damage.
Im not nor have been talking about chlorine of 0.2 and 0.5 ppm in your city water supply.
BUT IF sodium hypochlorite a epa registered pesticide in your opinion is so safe and non toxic go ahead drink up, bath in it etc. skip those rubber gloves too and why face mask, you dont care or worry about people breathing in the off gassing or splashing spraying it on their visible mold or homes.
If not toxic or dangerous why epa, osha, fda regulate it and usa and Europe restrict and monitor it even in drinking water. Why enquiries regarding hypochlorite bleaches poisoning have ranged from 43,000 to 46,000 per year over the period 2012-2016. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30689457/
Yes it is carcinogenic especially to skin lungs etc. You want volunteer be first human skin test subjects? Since scientists only get FDA approval test on rats and mice….
http://www.inchem.org/documents/iarc/vol52/02-sodium%20chlorite.html
Chlorine Poisoning
Medically reviewed by Stacy Sampson, DO.
"Chlorine poisoning can occur when you touch, swallow, or inhale chlorine. Chlorine reacts with water outside of the body and on mucosal surfaces inside your body — including the water in your digestive tract — causing hydrochloric acid and hypochlorous acid to form. Both of these substances can be extremely poisonous to humans."
Scott Curriden of The Scripps Research Institute's Environmental Health and Safety Department. "It has been around for centuries and can be remarkably effective at killing bacteria and viruses...but it can drill hole in stainless steel.,"
…"a warning to keep (bleach) away from children and pets. Drinking, breathing, touching undiluted bleach can destroy your flesh and kill you." by Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.
"Chlorine exposure can damage your circulatory system. Symptoms of this problem can include:
changes in the pH balance of your blood
low blood pressure
serious injury to the eyes, including blurry vision, burning, irritation, and in extreme cases vision loss
skin damage, resulting from tissue injury with burns and irritation, said CDC https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0115.html
Long-term complications may occur after breathing in high concentrations of chlorine. Complications are more likely to be seen in people who develop severe health problems such as fluid in the lungs (pulmonary edema) following the initial exposure."
As a matter of fact, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), stopped recommending the use of bleach for dealing with mold problems. And, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) updated their guide as well, https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/reg_actions/reregistration/fs_G-77_1-Sep-91.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjJ9q-UtL_mAhUOnlkKHSGEAHgQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2b0VEXWPGbrt6jJfPQif9c
https://www3.epa.gov ›
The problem is, it’s true that bleach can kill some mold in some places some of the time. But, bleach only works to remove mold on hard, impermeable surfaces like bathtub and shower surrounds or tiles. However, on porous surfaces like drywall or hardwood floors, it won’t work to kill mold or keep it from coming back.
Because mold spreads its roots (called mycelia and hyphae) deep into porous surfaces.
Simply spraying a bleach solution on the surface won’t kill mold spores at their roots.
Just ask lumber industry…. bleach is on wood, it starts to weaken it by breaking the fibers. When you spray bleach on metal, it starts to corrode it almost immediately. Thus, using bleach to kill mold creates problems with the structural integrity of a home.
I suggest the “Journal of Forest Products” who commissioned a study by Oregon State University years ago. The stain disappears but the microflora remains and under the right conditions the mold will begin to grow.
Bleach is extremely corrosive to humans and has cumulative affect when exposed. When you spray bleach and it evaporates, it releases chlorine gas. It irritates and eventually causes damage to the skin, lungs, and eyes.
The corrosive nature of bleach is even worse when it’s mixed.
Bleach should never be mixed with acids, because it causes dangerous fumes. Acids and chemicals are used in most building materials.
Remember: Mixing cleaning compounds containing ammonia with bleach and ammonia produces deadly gasses that can kill with just a few breaths.
As Michael Pinto, on the website Mold Sensitized reminds professional restoration companies: “Depending on the ratio of bleach to ammonia, chlorine gas, nitrogen trichloride and/or hydrazine will be produced when these two are mixed. In addition to being toxic, the last two listed by-products from this bleach mixture are also explosive. Other reactive by-products that can come from bleach mixtures are toxic chloramines and dioxins.”
Bleach doesn’t work as a sanitizing agent when it’s mixed with organic material. To be a successful sanitizer, bleach has to be used on clean materials and surfaces. That’s why bleach products get used in the laundry after the wash cycle. Light and heat compromise the sanitizing properties of bleach. Despite the fact that the chlorine odor lingers for a while after you use it, bleach loses strength so quickly it doesn’t have a residual effect. That is, it doesn’t prevent future bacterial or fungal growth.
Most bleach products are not registered with the EPA to be used as antimicrobial agents.
Use antimicrobial agents are registered with the EPA specifically for killing mold. Some are formulated to be friendly to the environment, your family and your pets. In addition, they are cost effective, easy to use, and, they have a true residual effect. That means they actually prevent bacteria and mold from regrowing.
*****more information about sodium and calcium hypochlorite, or about EPA's pesticide reregistration program, please contact the Special Review and Reregistration Division (7508W), For information about reregistration of individual hypochlorite products, please contact the Registration Division (7505C), For information about the health effects of pesticides, or for assistance
in recognizing and managing pesticide poisoning symptoms, please contact the National Pesticides Telecommunications Network
- Rental Property Investor · Navarre, FL · Member since 2019 · 913 posts · 640 votes6y
Originally posted by @Jeremy A.:
Originally posted by @Michael King:
Originally posted by @Jeremy A.:
HELLO MY BIGGER POCKETS FORUM RESPONDERS….especially those unloving uncaring ones with huge egos. Heres my r
I'm guessing you're saying I have a huge ego? Okay, let's get some facts together. First off, I did not recommend anyone use bleach or any product. I described what I do. Anything in excess can cause medical issues, especially in the young, elderly or immune system compromised.
Your post was rather tiresome. I stopped reading where it mentioned that doctors say you can be poisoned by drinking bleach. That's a remarkable statement. I guess we'll find out next that you can get sick from licking mold? Wait, what's this?
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Michael King:
I'm guessing you're saying I have a huge ego? Okay, let's get some facts together. First off, I did not recommend anyone use bleach or any product. I described what I do. Anything in excess can cause medical issues, especially in the young, elderly or immune system compromised.
Your post was rather tiresome. I stopped reading where it mentioned that doctors say you can be poisoned by drinking bleach. That's a remarkable statement. I guess we'll find out next that you can get sick from licking mold? Wait, what's this?
Not to mention 90% of the post was just c&p from other websites, most of which are designed to sell you remediation services. Which is my suspicion here.
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