Title company refuses to accept my notarized docs

23 Replies

Originally posted by @Daniel Hans :

Hello,

I got the loan docs notarized in my lawyer's office but the title company refuses to accept them as they only work with notaries they've selected themselves. What should I do? 

 There is only one thing you can do, redo all the loan docs with their notary. 

I have run into similar issues many times when doing deals. In the end it doesn’t matter.

@Daniel Hans Move on. Find a title company that will work with you. I view my title company as a partner in my business. They are very accommodating, move quickly and accommodate tight turnarounds and schedules to get us to closing. Lots of great ones out there, ask for referrals from your local REI group.

On what grounds? The whole point in having a notary involved is that the process itself authenticates the document and confirms the signer. It also eliminates potential liability for the title company, who can reasonably rely upon the docs ... unless there are some other material facts not being shared here.

Originally posted by @Daniel Hans :

Hello,

I got the loan docs notarized in my lawyer's office but the title company refuses to accept them as they only work with notaries they've selected themselves. What should I do? 

 what is the lender doing sending closing docs to an attorney that's carzy the lender is bozo.. they should ONLY go to who ever is extending title insurance..  now many attorneys write title insurance and have that practice but one who is not an agent for a title insurer should have known better and so had your lender.

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs :
Originally posted by @Daniel Hans:

Hello,

I got the loan docs notarized in my lawyer's office but the title company refuses to accept them as they only work with notaries they've selected themselves. What should I do? 

 what is the lender doing sending closing docs to an attorney that's carzy the lender is bozo.. they should ONLY go to who ever is extending title insurance..  now many attorneys write title insurance and have that practice but one who is not an agent for a title insurer should have known better and so had your lender.

 The lender did not send the docs to an attorney. I got them reviewed by the real estate attorney I've been working with for years. I got these docs notarized by the notary who works for my lawyer's company...

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs :
Originally posted by @Daniel Hans:

Hello,

I got the loan docs notarized in my lawyer's office but the title company refuses to accept them as they only work with notaries they've selected themselves. What should I do? 

 what is the lender doing sending closing docs to an attorney that's carzy the lender is bozo.. they should ONLY go to who ever is extending title insurance..  now many attorneys write title insurance and have that practice but one who is not an agent for a title insurer should have known better and so had your lender.

That's a good point, Jay... from a lender's perspective! But we run into situations all the time where a party is overseas or way out of the area. It's simply not possible to have a notary we "know" in every jurisdiction. We have to rely upon the process of authentication and yes, we will issue title insurance (absent red flags) and that insurance will cover problems with the execution of docs such as fraud or forgery.

Originally posted by @Tom Gimer :
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Daniel Hans:

Hello,

I got the loan docs notarized in my lawyer's office but the title company refuses to accept them as they only work with notaries they've selected themselves. What should I do? 

 what is the lender doing sending closing docs to an attorney that's carzy the lender is bozo.. they should ONLY go to who ever is extending title insurance..  now many attorneys write title insurance and have that practice but one who is not an agent for a title insurer should have known better and so had your lender.

That's a good point, Jay... from a lender's perspective! But we run into situations all the time where a party is overseas or way out of the area. It's simply not possible to have a notary we "know" in every jurisdiction. We have to rely upon the process of authentication and yes, we will issue title insurance (absent red flags) and that insurance will cover problems with the execution of docs such as fraud or forgery.

I get the foreign stuff but as a lender rule NUMBER one is don't let your Originial loan docs go to anyone but the closer.. or as you state a mobile notary who has insurance..  to send orgininal docs to a lawyer not a party of the contract I would never do.. no problem sending copies of course.. so they can review red line and send back with their instructions but this is how fraud happens.

I had lunch last week with Pat Stone and he said the east coast has far more claims than the west coast because of the smaller mom pop attorney relationships compared to someone walking into your multi jurisdictional or location for real title escrow company..  

@Daniel Hans if your lender insists on using  a particular title company why did the docs go anyplace else?

If the lender simply sent them to you or your lawyer to review, then simply resign at the chosen title company. They should have been there ready to sign when you showed up.  Why didn't you just sign the new copies at the title company and destroy the first set you had?

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs :
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Daniel Hans:

Hello,

I got the loan docs notarized in my lawyer's office but the title company refuses to accept them as they only work with notaries they've selected themselves. What should I do? 

 what is the lender doing sending closing docs to an attorney that's carzy the lender is bozo.. they should ONLY go to who ever is extending title insurance..  now many attorneys write title insurance and have that practice but one who is not an agent for a title insurer should have known better and so had your lender.

That's a good point, Jay... from a lender's perspective! But we run into situations all the time where a party is overseas or way out of the area. It's simply not possible to have a notary we "know" in every jurisdiction. We have to rely upon the process of authentication and yes, we will issue title insurance (absent red flags) and that insurance will cover problems with the execution of docs such as fraud or forgery.

I get the foreign stuff but as a lender rule NUMBER one is don't let your Originial loan docs go to anyone but the closer.. or as you state a mobile notary who has insurance..  to send orgininal docs to a lawyer not a party of the contract I would never do.. no problem sending copies of course.. so they can review red line and send back with their instructions but this is how fraud happens.

I had lunch last week with Pat Stone and he said the east coast has far more claims than the west coast because of the smaller mom pop attorney relationships compared to someone walking into your multi jurisdictional or location for real title escrow company..  

That's a good point. Buyer side vs. seller side. Loan docs should be under the control of the settlement agent. The "trust the process" issue comes up much more often for us in the context of a seller who has to go to an embassy / consulate / attorney in a foreign land, get the deed, etc. executed, authenticated and then go one step further to have the capacity of the official who authenticated the doc verified as well. 

In the instant situation I would be interested to see whether the title company's "approved" list of notaries happened to be staff on hand who make a few extra hundred $ for the title company. And as @Ned Carey pointed out ... interested in hearing how the docs got to the buyer/borrower in the first place. 

FYI Maryland requires third parties to rely upon a properly executed, witnessed and notarized POA... subject to damages if they refuse.

Originally posted by @Tom Gimer :
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Daniel Hans:

Hello,

I got the loan docs notarized in my lawyer's office but the title company refuses to accept them as they only work with notaries they've selected themselves. What should I do? 

 what is the lender doing sending closing docs to an attorney that's carzy the lender is bozo.. they should ONLY go to who ever is extending title insurance..  now many attorneys write title insurance and have that practice but one who is not an agent for a title insurer should have known better and so had your lender.

That's a good point, Jay... from a lender's perspective! But we run into situations all the time where a party is overseas or way out of the area. It's simply not possible to have a notary we "know" in every jurisdiction. We have to rely upon the process of authentication and yes, we will issue title insurance (absent red flags) and that insurance will cover problems with the execution of docs such as fraud or forgery.

I get the foreign stuff but as a lender rule NUMBER one is don't let your Originial loan docs go to anyone but the closer.. or as you state a mobile notary who has insurance..  to send orgininal docs to a lawyer not a party of the contract I would never do.. no problem sending copies of course.. so they can review red line and send back with their instructions but this is how fraud happens.

I had lunch last week with Pat Stone and he said the east coast has far more claims than the west coast because of the smaller mom pop attorney relationships compared to someone walking into your multi jurisdictional or location for real title escrow company..  

That's a good point. Buyer side vs. seller side. Loan docs should be under the control of the settlement agent. The "trust the process" issue comes up much more often for us in the context of a seller who has to go to an embassy / consulate / attorney in a foreign land, get the deed, etc. executed, authenticated and then go one step further to have the capacity of the official who authenticated the doc verified as well. 

In the instant situation I would be interested to see whether the title company's "approved" list of notaries happened to be staff on hand who make a few extra hundred $ for the title company.

it drives me nuts when I close deals and the vendors want to use OSS out of FLA.. they want a mobile notary.. well they also want to charge me for said mobile notary.. I refuse.. flat out.. that stops them in their tracks.. 

then I tell them we have first American  Fidelity WFG  TIcor Chicago take your pic I have closers at each that you just send the docs there and you know my files skinny as they are I can pop in sign in 5 minutes and leave.. they run that up the flag pole and will comply.

I fell for the mobile notary one time in NYC when I was at my daughters wedding and that cost me 350 bucks I about came unglued on that one.. never again nothing against those folks but I have all those title companies on one street 5 minutes from my home base.. and I know all the senior closers on first name basis so for ME and I know I am not one off but that's how I do it..   

Originally posted by @Ned Carey :

@Daniel Hans if your lender insists on using  a particular title company why did the docs go anyplace else?

If the lender simply sent them to you or your lawyer to review, then simply resign at the chosen title company. They should have been there ready to sign when you showed up.  Why didn't you just sign the new copies at the title company and destroy the first set you had?

 I just want to analyze the whole issue from a legal standpoint. Is the title company's demand to get the docs "re-signed" legal?

Originally posted by @Daniel Hans :
Originally posted by @Ned Carey:

@Daniel Hans if your lender insists on using  a particular title company why did the docs go anyplace else?

If the lender simply sent them to you or your lawyer to review, then simply resign at the chosen title company. They should have been there ready to sign when you showed up.  Why didn't you just sign the new copies at the title company and destroy the first set you had?

 I just want to analyze the whole issue from a legal standpoint. Is the title company's demand to get the docs "re-signed" legal?

Depends where you are. Real estate is very location-specific and honestly BP should require at least a State associated with a user and most posts.

With that said, you may not even need to re-sign the docs. Could be the solution is to bring the signed docs to the title company where they could take another acknowledgement from you and attach their own certificate.

@Daniel Hans I don't know. I suspect it is. (although @Tom Gimer 's point about MD law was interesting) But there is no law you have to use that title company or that lender.  I'd be tempted to say, "well then you just did a lot of work for nothing "cause I'm not paying you a cent if you won't settle this."

I have little tolerance for professionals that don't know their own job as well as I do. I probably would have re-signed and gotten the deal done with as little hassle to me as possible.  Then I would put them on my DO NOT USE list. I haven't done it yet but I have come close to reporting some title attorneys to the MD Attorney Grievance Commission.

PS: I would check into whether there is any kind of law in your state requiring them to accept a notary. I like to know the law so I can shove it down someones throat when I need to.

This seems to be much a do about nothing. Since you were paying your attorney to review the docs I doubt he charged you for the notary. 

Fraud has become rampant in the real estate industry and I can’t blame a title company for wanting you to sign the docs in front of them. You’re going there for the closing anyway. 

Here we have had a lot of fraudulent deeds recorded that were “notarized”, but maybe we’re just ahead of the curve here. 

It would have taken less time to resign the docs than do this thread. 

Originally posted by @Ned Carey :

@Daniel Hans I don't know. I suspect it is. (although @Tom Gimer 's point about MD law was interesting) But there is no law you have to use that title company or that lender.  I'd be tempted to say, "well then you just did a lot of work for nothing "cause I'm not paying you a cent if you won't settle this."

I have little tolerance for professionals that don't know their own job as well as I do. I probably would have re-signed and gotten the deal done with as little hassle to me as possible.  Then I would put them on my DO NOT USE list. I haven't done it yet but I have come close to reporting some title attorneys to the MD Attorney Grievance Commission.

PS: I would check into whether there is any kind of law in your state requiring them to accept a notary. I like to know the law so I can shove it down someones throat when I need to.

 Ned it may not be a law but the title company can have their own rules and simply not insure them.. nothing says they have to.

as Wayne says tons of fraud with Notaries and the east coast leads the nation in title loss's.. according to Pat Stone .. at least that's what he told me at lunch.. just like people get private folks to sign quit claims record them .. and now no one will insure the title going forward.. they don't trust docs that were not prepped by a title company or in your area attorney … I have seen that..

Is there a reason you can't sit down and resign the loan package at the title company and get it done? 

I agree with the comments above, I've never heard of a title company only allowing certain notaries. It's possible something about your deal raised a red flag in underwriting and they don't want to accept your docs. I've walked into a closing with a pre-signed loan package before and didn't have a problem.

@Jay Hinrichs

Ned it may not be a law but the title company can have their own rules and simply not insure them..

I thought that was implied by my answer but for others reading along Jay is absolutely right. Title companies often choose not to insure for what often seem petty reasons.

Originally posted by @Bob Floss II :

Is there a reason you can't sit down and resign the loan package at the title company and get it done? 

I agree with the comments above, I've never heard of a title company only allowing certain notaries. It's possible something about your deal raised a red flag in underwriting and they don't want to accept your docs. I've walked into a closing with a pre-signed loan package before and didn't have a problem.

 Bob its actually quite common... like Chicago title in Dallas will not let you choose your own notary.. but closings in IL are far different than any other state were you have attorneys in the tulles in the deals.. we never see that out our way.. It is extremely rare that a buyer or seller in a residential transaction will engage an attorney.. 

Originally posted by @Bob Floss II :

Is there a reason you can't sit down and resign the loan package at the title company and get it done? 

I agree with the comments above, I've never heard of a title company only allowing certain notaries. It's possible something about your deal raised a red flag in underwriting and they don't want to accept your docs. I've walked into a closing with a pre-signed loan package before and didn't have a problem.

there just a ton of fraud goes on with Notaries .. this is why title companies at least some are so picky..  

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs :
Originally posted by @Bob Floss II:

Is there a reason you can't sit down and resign the loan package at the title company and get it done? 

I agree with the comments above, I've never heard of a title company only allowing certain notaries. It's possible something about your deal raised a red flag in underwriting and they don't want to accept your docs. I've walked into a closing with a pre-signed loan package before and didn't have a problem.

there just a ton of fraud goes on with Notaries .. this is why title companies at least some are so picky..  

 FYI -- Around here you have to be a licensed title insurance producer to conduct a settlement. Oversight, annual reporting, continuing education, etc. Major lenders require this info up front.