Potential Red Flag and protecting the site from wolves

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Potential Red Flag and protecting the site from wolves

Ken Virzi
Long Beach, CA · Member since 2017 · 107 posts · 82 votes

So I got a colleague request with the following message:

"Hi Ken!

I am a Cleveland investor living in Los Angeles who is trying to gauge interest with people about organizing a Socal/Cleveland investor meet up.

I am reaching out to a couple dozen people on the Bigger Pockets site who are currently investing and/or interested in the Cleveland Market. If there is enough interest I will schedule a date in the next month or two.

This will just be a casual networking type of thing. I have nothing to sell other than my Knowledge of the area growing up in the Cleveland and the experience of investing there from a long distance.

I think it could be enlightening to hear from other people in the same long distance investing situation and find out what has worked and what didnât with their investments.

If youâre interested, let me know.

Cheers!"

The first slight (very slight) red flag was the line "I have nothing to sell" those kind of statements usually stand out to me. Nonetheless I thought it was a great idea and responded in kind with a question about where in Cleveland he grew up.

We sent a few messages back and forth and then in response to where I had bought he said, "let me guess, did you buy with Holton Wise?" I had researched his name and saw he was a cheerleader for them which is fine, but I thought I would test the water. I responded with "Yes for the first, but after that hell no." 

Next thing I know, he disappeared and possibly blocked me. 

I call these red flags because I cannot know for sure and I try to assume the best, but there is enough circumstantial evidence here to make me believe he is profiting through referrals and not be open it. Instead of inquiring why I said hell no, he simply cut and run. That just seems odd, unless you are trying to get a group together to specifically push them in a certain direction (even though you have nothing to sell). 

I know there are a lot of shady people in the business, and I hope we can protect Bigger Pockets and maintain a standard of ethical high ground, but I was wondering if there was a way to self police? I mean I do not want to see any lynching or false accusations, but what if we had a reporting feature where a team of volunteers or something could investigate? This site is a potential goldmine for those looking to take advantage and I would want to protect the members if possible. 

Then again we cannot protect everyone from everything and need to learn ourselves, but I am guessing there is some standard of behavior expected. 

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Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
8y

To say this post was slanderous or defamatory to Holton Wise is a stretch. I didn't read it that way, because @Ken Virzi said in the post, he has never purchased from them. Since he never purchased from them, how would Ken even be a credible source to evaluate Holton Wise? I had no negative thoughts about HW until the owner chimed in with an over reaction.

Why did Holton Wise immediately jump into a mud fight implying some legal wrong doing? It leads me to believe they are sensitive to attacks - maybe it happens regularly? If that is they case, why? 

If that was my company, my question would be, "Why did you use Holton Wise as an example in a negative context?". For example if I owned a restaurant and someone said they disliked my food, I would ask them what they have tried and why they didn't like it. I wouldn't tell them they are slanderous. 

James and Brent did more damage to their business reputation in this thread than the OP. Hot head responses and quoting dictionary definitions is condescending to all of us. I hope you don't treat your customers like that and if you do, that could be why you were cited as the example here. Just food for thought.

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  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

    To say this post was slanderous or defamatory to Holton Wise is a stretch. I didn't read it that way, because @Ken Virzi said in the post, he has never purchased from them. Since he never purchased from them, how would Ken even be a credible source to evaluate Holton Wise? I had no negative thoughts about HW until the owner chimed in with an over reaction.

    Why did Holton Wise immediately jump into a mud fight implying some legal wrong doing? It leads me to believe they are sensitive to attacks - maybe it happens regularly? If that is they case, why? 

    If that was my company, my question would be, "Why did you use Holton Wise as an example in a negative context?". For example if I owned a restaurant and someone said they disliked my food, I would ask them what they have tried and why they didn't like it. I wouldn't tell them they are slanderous. 

    James and Brent did more damage to their business reputation in this thread than the OP. Hot head responses and quoting dictionary definitions is condescending to all of us. I hope you don't treat your customers like that and if you do, that could be why you were cited as the example here. Just food for thought.

    Sounds like OP did actually purchase his first property from HW. 

    Personally I think Yelp blows because of their stupid algorithm but it sure is fun to read sometimes.

    Gimer Law516 Reviews
    WebsiteView Page
    1Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Ken Virzi:
    Originally posted by @James Wise:

    Holton-Wise does not use outside marketers or have any affiliation with outside sales representatives or marketers of any kind. The only people whom are paid to sell our products & services are our Real Estate Agents. This entire post is completely slanderous to myself & my company.

    I wrote "potential" for a reason. I used the word "circumstantial" for a reason, and left out the name on purpose. I also was very intentional about not being accusatory, but instead being cautious and asking in the event that this was in bad faith, what are the BP guidelines. I also chose to post in public so that anyone could chime in, my hope was that there was nothing shady going on, and it seems there is not. I am not sure how it was so offensive to you however, that is not my intention. In fact I even made sure to say I think it is fine for someone to be a cheerleader of your company (hardly slanderous).

    Slanderous or Defamatory, whatever verbiage the folks on this chain want to go back & fourth on is fine by me. 

    The real point here is that this thread is simply a platform for Ken to flame or troll. The entire point of Ken's post was meant to either get heavy traffic on one of his threads by getting a rise out of one of the more well known members of BP or simply to drag the Holton-Wise name through the mud because he has an axe to grind. 

    In my opinion Ken is not adding any value to the forums with junk like this. Ken you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You create a thread based on some fairy tail accusation just to give yourself the opportunity to say something negative about Holton-Wise such as"let me guess, did you buy with Holton Wise?" I had researched his name and saw he was a cheerleader for them which is fine, but I thought I would test the water. I responded with "Yes for the first, but after that hell no."

    Then the very next day after saying "hell no" to the idea of buying from Holton-Wise on a public forum that my company utilizes to generate clientele you reach out to me looking to buy rental property from me?

    I am here to run my business & provide quality Real Estate related content to the members of BP. BP is an incredible platform that a Real Estate Broker such as myself can utilize to get my message to the masses. That's what I am here for. Playing games on the forums with a member looking to stir the pot for whatever reason is of no interest to me.

    As for anyone who has questions about the email marketing practices of Holton-Wise that was discussed & answered by me in THIS THREAD.

    1Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

    To say this post was slanderous or defamatory to Holton Wise is a stretch. I didn't read it that way, because @Ken Virzi said in the post, he has never purchased from them. Since he never purchased from them, how would Ken even be a credible source to evaluate Holton Wise? I had no negative thoughts about HW until the owner chimed in with an over reaction.

    Why did Holton Wise immediately jump into a mud fight implying some legal wrong doing? It leads me to believe they are sensitive to attacks - maybe it happens regularly? If that is they case, why? 

    If that was my company, my question would be, "Why did you use Holton Wise as an example in a negative context?". For example if I owned a restaurant and someone said they disliked my food, I would ask them what they have tried and why they didn't like it. I wouldn't tell them they are slanderous. 

    James and Brent did more damage to their business reputation in this thread than the OP. Hot head responses and quoting dictionary definitions is condescending to all of us. I hope you don't treat your customers like that and if you do, that could be why you were cited as the example here. Just food for thought.

     There are a few things you didn't read the right way Joe. 

    To clarify for all Brent Combs is not an employee of, associated with or in any way related to Holton-Wise. Nothing wrong with any of his comments (I agreed with most of them) but let's keep the facts straight when going back & fourth Joe. Something you seem to have fumbled a few times in your analysis of the situation.

    0Reply
  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    https://grantcardone.com/blogs/grantcardone/critic...

    Have you ever been criticized? If you answered, “Yes” – this is a good thing! When you start taking enough action it won’t be long before you’re judged by people who aren’t taking enough, if any, at all. If you’re generating enough success, people will start to pay attention to you. Some will admire you, some will want to learn from you, but unfortunately, most will envy you. The moment the naysayers realize and acknowledge that your presence is unwavering—and that your success is something to imitate rather than judge— they eventually will give up and find another target to aim their negativity towards. From what I’ve learned criticism precedes admiration and undoubtedly goes hand in hand with success. This is to be expected and anticipated. Just know that criticism is a sure sign that you’re on the right path in order to succeed. The only way to handle criticism is to foresee it as an element of your success formula and push toward it. Actually go out and try to get some haters! Remember: Success is your duty, obligation and responsibility.
    - G. Cardone
    1Reply
  • Ken Virzi
    OP
    Long Beach, CA · Member since 2017 · 107 posts · 82 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @Ken Virzi:
    Originally posted by @James Wise:

    Holton-Wise does not use outside marketers or have any affiliation with outside sales representatives or marketers of any kind. The only people whom are paid to sell our products & services are our Real Estate Agents. This entire post is completely slanderous to myself & my company.

    I wrote "potential" for a reason. I used the word "circumstantial" for a reason, and left out the name on purpose. I also was very intentional about not being accusatory, but instead being cautious and asking in the event that this was in bad faith, what are the BP guidelines. I also chose to post in public so that anyone could chime in, my hope was that there was nothing shady going on, and it seems there is not. I am not sure how it was so offensive to you however, that is not my intention. In fact I even made sure to say I think it is fine for someone to be a cheerleader of your company (hardly slanderous).

    Slanderous or Defamatory, whatever verbiage the folks on this chain want to go back & fourth on is fine by me. 

    The real point here is that this thread is simply a platform for Ken to flame or troll. The entire point of Ken's post was meant to either get heavy traffic on one of his threads by getting a rise out of one of the more well known members of BP or simply to drag the Holton-Wise name through the mud because he has an axe to grind. 

    In my opinion Ken is not adding any value to the forums with junk like this. Ken you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You create a thread based on some fairy tail accusation just to give yourself the opportunity to say something negative about Holton-Wise such as"let me guess, did you buy with Holton Wise?" I had researched his name and saw he was a cheerleader for them which is fine, but I thought I would test the water. I responded with "Yes for the first, but after that hell no."

    Then the very next day after saying "hell no" to the idea of buying from Holton-Wise on a public forum that my company utilizes to generate clientele you reach out to me looking to buy rental property from me?

    I am here to run my business & provide quality Real Estate related content to the members of BP. BP is an incredible platform that a Real Estate Broker such as myself can utilize to get my message to the masses. That's what I am here for. Playing games on the forums with a member looking to stir the pot for whatever reason is of no interest to me.

    As for anyone who has questions about the email marketing practices of Holton-Wise that was discussed & answered by me in THIS THREAD.

     I offer honest opinions and read before I respond. If you read you would know what the "hell no" was. It was a test. I have stated that, and have even apologized for too strong of a test. I have never attacked you personally. I have commented on your business practices and have mentioned both your strengths and weaknesses. All of us have strengths and weaknesses and I am disheartened that you are so opposed to feedback from your customers. I hope you take the feedback more then it seems and that might be the case. 

    I have also stated that I would never rule out buying from you again several times. 

    It is this behavior as a businessman that loses respect. I find it interesting that you took a simple test of two words "hell no" and claimed slander then wrote about me what you did above. I am not insulted and I think these posts speak for themselves. The original post had to do with a potential bad actor, not HW at all. HW was used as a test only. And you are making it personal for some reason. If you bring me an interesting deal I will inquire. You could rip me off, lie to me, and insult my mother, but bottom line is that if you have a deal that I think worth looking into I, I would. Just to be clear, since things have seemed to be taken out of context and jumbled here, you have not ripped me off, you have not lied to me, and you have never said a word about my mother.

    My only feedback I shall give at this point is that you are dangerously close to coming off as a bully. Maybe you have enough buyers that you can afford such brazen words and that is fine. Like I said before it is your business and you clearly are doing very well. If I wished you ill will in any way I would not give you any useful feedback but instead would goat you into further incriminating responses.  

    If you wish to cut me off from any type of relationship I cannot control that, but like I have said many times now, I am not interested in severing on my end. In fact, the entire post was based on an apparent unfriending and blocking of such a sudden nature that it made me wonder. My desire is to ensure that this is and remains a safe community, I am saddened that you see no value in that.

    1Reply
  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Ken Virzi:
    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @Ken Virzi:
    Originally posted by @James Wise:

    Holton-Wise does not use outside marketers or have any affiliation with outside sales representatives or marketers of any kind. The only people whom are paid to sell our products & services are our Real Estate Agents. This entire post is completely slanderous to myself & my company.

    I wrote "potential" for a reason. I used the word "circumstantial" for a reason, and left out the name on purpose. I also was very intentional about not being accusatory, but instead being cautious and asking in the event that this was in bad faith, what are the BP guidelines. I also chose to post in public so that anyone could chime in, my hope was that there was nothing shady going on, and it seems there is not. I am not sure how it was so offensive to you however, that is not my intention. In fact I even made sure to say I think it is fine for someone to be a cheerleader of your company (hardly slanderous).

    Slanderous or Defamatory, whatever verbiage the folks on this chain want to go back & fourth on is fine by me. 

    The real point here is that this thread is simply a platform for Ken to flame or troll. The entire point of Ken's post was meant to either get heavy traffic on one of his threads by getting a rise out of one of the more well known members of BP or simply to drag the Holton-Wise name through the mud because he has an axe to grind. 

    In my opinion Ken is not adding any value to the forums with junk like this. Ken you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You create a thread based on some fairy tail accusation just to give yourself the opportunity to say something negative about Holton-Wise such as"let me guess, did you buy with Holton Wise?" I had researched his name and saw he was a cheerleader for them which is fine, but I thought I would test the water. I responded with "Yes for the first, but after that hell no."

    Then the very next day after saying "hell no" to the idea of buying from Holton-Wise on a public forum that my company utilizes to generate clientele you reach out to me looking to buy rental property from me?

    I am here to run my business & provide quality Real Estate related content to the members of BP. BP is an incredible platform that a Real Estate Broker such as myself can utilize to get my message to the masses. That's what I am here for. Playing games on the forums with a member looking to stir the pot for whatever reason is of no interest to me.

    As for anyone who has questions about the email marketing practices of Holton-Wise that was discussed & answered by me in THIS THREAD.

     I offer honest opinions and read before I respond. If you read you would know what the "hell no" was. It was a test. I have stated that, and have even apologized for too strong of a test. I have never attacked you personally. I have commented on your business practices and have mentioned both your strengths and weaknesses. All of us have strengths and weaknesses and I am disheartened that you are so opposed to feedback from your customers. I hope you take the feedback more then it seems and that might be the case. 

    I have also stated that I would never rule out buying from you again several times. 

    It is this behavior as a businessman that loses respect. I find it interesting that you took a simple test of two words "hell no" and claimed slander then wrote about me what you did above. I am not insulted and I think these posts speak for themselves. The original post had to do with a potential bad actor, not HW at all. HW was used as a test only. And you are making it personal for some reason. If you bring me an interesting deal I will inquire. You could rip me off, lie to me, and insult my mother, but bottom line is that if you have a deal that I think worth looking into I, I would. Just to be clear, since things have seemed to be taken out of context and jumbled here, you have not ripped me off, you have not lied to me, and you have never said a word about my mother.

    My only feedback I shall give at this point is that you are dangerously close to coming off as a bully. Maybe you have enough buyers that you can afford such brazen words and that is fine. Like I said before it is your business and you clearly are doing very well. If I wished you ill will in any way I would not give you any useful feedback but instead would goat you into further incriminating responses.  

    If you wish to cut me off from any type of relationship I cannot control that, but like I have said many times now, I am not interested in severing on my end. In fact, the entire post was based on an apparent unfriending and blocking of such a sudden nature that it made me wonder. My desire is to ensure that this is and remains a safe community, I am saddened that you see no value in that.

    What is the purpose of your thread? What is the message here, the takeaway? If you weren't trying to defame a certain company, why bother mentioning their name in a conversation that according to you was simply inconsequential to the big message here? Your message to me reads like you are playing the victim, being bullied by the big, bad company you named, when you simply wanted to discuss something totally unrelated to them - well then, why did you mention them and what is that discussion you want to have?

    I don't do email marketing, but I do a ton of direct mail and phone calls, sometimes going through 1k numbers in a call session. And I get these same complaints. Callbacks that my missed call is somehow invading their privacy. Calls to stop sending letters and if I ever do again they'll take "legal action". Calls from no-name attorneys that if I ever contact their "client" again, I'll pay dearly.

    BULL. If you don't want people to contact you, go live in the northern woods of Wisconsin. Otherwise, it takes literally less than half a second to delete an email, throw away an envelope, or silence a call from an unknown number. But 90% of the time, these are people who have nothing else going on in their lives, and rather than just delete something that they aren't interested in, they take the time to do this. I get a ton of junk mail and emails too - when I'm interested I take a look/talk, when I'm not I simply unsubscribe or delete. Don't have the time or energy to lodge disparaging comments about companies simply trying to present their business that they feel may be of interest to me. What difference does it make HOW they got your email? If you don't like the message, delete, and if you don't like the topic unsubscribe. Problem solved.

    I was attacked on a large local Facebook page which ended up with me on the Sunday night news - people who weren't ever going to be my clients were disparaging my business. Luckily I realized there was no need to appease these people, and it turned into a great free advertising moment to get me in front of people who actually will be my clients - and they appreciated/understood my message.

    1Reply
  • Ken Virzi
    OP
    Long Beach, CA · Member since 2017 · 107 posts · 82 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:
    Originally posted by @Ken Virzi:
    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @Ken Virzi:
    Originally posted by @James Wise:

    Holton-Wise does not use outside marketers or have any affiliation with outside sales representatives or marketers of any kind. The only people whom are paid to sell our products & services are our Real Estate Agents. This entire post is completely slanderous to myself & my company.

    I wrote "potential" for a reason. I used the word "circumstantial" for a reason, and left out the name on purpose. I also was very intentional about not being accusatory, but instead being cautious and asking in the event that this was in bad faith, what are the BP guidelines. I also chose to post in public so that anyone could chime in, my hope was that there was nothing shady going on, and it seems there is not. I am not sure how it was so offensive to you however, that is not my intention. In fact I even made sure to say I think it is fine for someone to be a cheerleader of your company (hardly slanderous).

    Slanderous or Defamatory, whatever verbiage the folks on this chain want to go back & fourth on is fine by me. 

    The real point here is that this thread is simply a platform for Ken to flame or troll. The entire point of Ken's post was meant to either get heavy traffic on one of his threads by getting a rise out of one of the more well known members of BP or simply to drag the Holton-Wise name through the mud because he has an axe to grind. 

    In my opinion Ken is not adding any value to the forums with junk like this. Ken you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You create a thread based on some fairy tail accusation just to give yourself the opportunity to say something negative about Holton-Wise such as"let me guess, did you buy with Holton Wise?" I had researched his name and saw he was a cheerleader for them which is fine, but I thought I would test the water. I responded with "Yes for the first, but after that hell no."

    Then the very next day after saying "hell no" to the idea of buying from Holton-Wise on a public forum that my company utilizes to generate clientele you reach out to me looking to buy rental property from me?

    I am here to run my business & provide quality Real Estate related content to the members of BP. BP is an incredible platform that a Real Estate Broker such as myself can utilize to get my message to the masses. That's what I am here for. Playing games on the forums with a member looking to stir the pot for whatever reason is of no interest to me.

    As for anyone who has questions about the email marketing practices of Holton-Wise that was discussed & answered by me in THIS THREAD.

     I offer honest opinions and read before I respond. If you read you would know what the "hell no" was. It was a test. I have stated that, and have even apologized for too strong of a test. I have never attacked you personally. I have commented on your business practices and have mentioned both your strengths and weaknesses. All of us have strengths and weaknesses and I am disheartened that you are so opposed to feedback from your customers. I hope you take the feedback more then it seems and that might be the case. 

    I have also stated that I would never rule out buying from you again several times. 

    It is this behavior as a businessman that loses respect. I find it interesting that you took a simple test of two words "hell no" and claimed slander then wrote about me what you did above. I am not insulted and I think these posts speak for themselves. The original post had to do with a potential bad actor, not HW at all. HW was used as a test only. And you are making it personal for some reason. If you bring me an interesting deal I will inquire. You could rip me off, lie to me, and insult my mother, but bottom line is that if you have a deal that I think worth looking into I, I would. Just to be clear, since things have seemed to be taken out of context and jumbled here, you have not ripped me off, you have not lied to me, and you have never said a word about my mother.

    My only feedback I shall give at this point is that you are dangerously close to coming off as a bully. Maybe you have enough buyers that you can afford such brazen words and that is fine. Like I said before it is your business and you clearly are doing very well. If I wished you ill will in any way I would not give you any useful feedback but instead would goat you into further incriminating responses.  

    If you wish to cut me off from any type of relationship I cannot control that, but like I have said many times now, I am not interested in severing on my end. In fact, the entire post was based on an apparent unfriending and blocking of such a sudden nature that it made me wonder. My desire is to ensure that this is and remains a safe community, I am saddened that you see no value in that.

    What is the purpose of your thread? What is the message here, the takeaway? If you weren't trying to defame a certain company, why bother mentioning their name in a conversation that according to you was simply inconsequential to the big message here? Your message to me reads like you are playing the victim, being bullied by the big, bad company you named, when you simply wanted to discuss something totally unrelated to them - well then, why did you mention them and what is that discussion you want to have?

    I don't do email marketing, but I do a ton of direct mail and phone calls, sometimes going through 1k numbers in a call session. And I get these same complaints. Callbacks that my missed call is somehow invading their privacy. Calls to stop sending letters and if I ever do again they'll take "legal action". Calls from no-name attorneys that if I ever contact their "client" again, I'll pay dearly.

    BULL. If you don't want people to contact you, go live in the northern woods of Wisconsin. Otherwise, it takes literally less than half a second to delete an email, throw away an envelope, or silence a call from an unknown number. But 90% of the time, these are people who have nothing else going on in their lives, and rather than just delete something that they aren't interested in, they take the time to do this. I get a ton of junk mail and emails too - when I'm interested I take a look/talk, when I'm not I simply unsubscribe or delete. Don't have the time or energy to lodge disparaging comments about companies simply trying to present their business that they feel may be of interest to me. What difference does it make HOW they got your email? If you don't like the message, delete, and if you don't like the topic unsubscribe. Problem solved.

    I was attacked on a large local Facebook page which ended up with me on the Sunday night news - people who weren't ever going to be my clients were disparaging my business. Luckily I realized there was no need to appease these people, and it turned into a great free advertising moment to get me in front of people who actually will be my clients - and they appreciated/understood my message.

     I was not trying to defame anyone. I was trying to figure out what the BP policy was in regards to keeping this a safe community. I have already apologized for not doing it perfectly. I provided context in order to have a productive discussion. I had no idea anyone would read this as an anti HW post in any way. I also have not mentioned anything about being contacted and not wanting to be contacted, however that does to appear to be a common concern by at least a few who chime in here. The confusion of what I wrote and others wrote seems to be confusing you, and thus your post is a bit confusing to me.

    1Reply
  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    @Ken Virzi

    Here's the contact link to ask those types of sooo-innocent questions about site policies/concerns next time and not throw mud on other companies/people:

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/contact

    0Reply
  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @Matthew Olszak

    Not sure I understand your post. Are you saying it is ok in your mind to cold call anyone and spam anyone with emails ?  

    FYI- It does matter where someone obtained your email. Harvesting emails from BP is against the rules

    1Reply
  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Greg H.:

    @Matthew Olszak

    Not sure I understand your post. Are you saying it is ok in your mind to cold call anyone and spam anyone with emails ?  

    FYI- It does matter where someone obtained your email. Harvesting emails from BP is against the rules

    Absolutely. If someone opens a line of communication, IE has an email and enters that email on sites that disclose that such address may be advertised to, or discloses it publicly, or has a phone number and is not on the DNC list, then yes - if I have a product I feel may be of interest to them its not wrong of me to reach out to present my product/service. How in the world is that some "invasion of privacy"? Its no different than walking down the street; is it somehow an invasion of privacy if I extend my hand for a handshake and to introduce myself if I see you stopped in front of a distressed home? In my opinion, no. And in all of those cases, there are easy ways to exclude yourself from further marketing efforts if the product/service is of no interest.

    Now what is being claimed by others (not the OP) is that they used a certain email address to register here, only used it once for that purpose, did not make it public, and are receiving advertising from a member of the moderation staff. The BP higher-ups in another thread already made clear that moderators do not have that level access, therefore that person's argument is bunk and only an intent to defame the subject company and this forum.

    So besides breaking the BP rules, what does it matter where someone who advertises to you got your email/phone number/address/etc? Why not focus on the point, are you interested or not in the product, and if not, then you can expect to not be contacted again.

    0Reply
  • Yashar E.
    Real Estate Agent · Gloucester City, NJ · Member since 2016 · 67 posts · 30 votes
    8y

    Sorry I don't have anything interesting to post that pertains to the OP..

    However, while skimming this thread I keep thinking to myself how I am in an actual legal issue with a "wolf" on BP that commonly advertises his company and I have the utmost confidence that his card tower will collapse once again, without my help.

    1Reply
  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    Olszak Realty... where do not call meets do not care.

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  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:

    Olszak Realty... where do not call meets do not care.

     Nice, if you read my last post, I clearly state that if someone has a phone number and is not on the DNC list.

    I'm not the type to call and badger, folks either want to sell or they don't, there isn't much convincing to be done. So as soon as I get a NO I'm on to the next call and you're off my list. And if you are in the DNC you aren't on my list to begin with...plenty of other numbers to ring without having to break the law.

    0Reply
  • Matt K.
    Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    I get those emails too thought I might of signed up somewhere but Cleveland wasn't ever really a market I was considering so who knows. But it looks like a lot of people get the emails... and I know it's been discussed they use various ways to get emails, but it'd be nice to know if they are scraping BP for them. Seen it asked few times, don't recall seeing a direct answer though.

    3Reply
  • Matt Motil
    Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 880 votes
    8y

    second post in the last couple weeks accusing scraping emails from the system. Last time it was people who openly had their emails in their sig lines. Now people are saying they’ve never had their emails public and are ending up on a list. 

    While people can say this is not cool, or annoying, or unprofessional - it’s flat out illegal and the one doing it can face major fines for it. It’s against the CAN-SPAM act of 2003. The fines are pretty hefty. 

    Hopefully BiggerPockets takes this seriously. 

    1Reply
  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:
    Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:

    Olszak Realty... where do not call meets do not care.

     Nice, if you read my last post, I clearly state that if someone has a phone number and is not on the DNC list.

    I'm not the type to call and badger, folks either want to sell or they don't, there isn't much convincing to be done. So as soon as I get a NO I'm on to the next call and you're off my list. And if you are in the DNC you aren't on my list to begin with...plenty of other numbers to ring without having to break the law.

    Oh sorry, I was responding to your first few posts...

    Remember, the ones where you basically said “if you don’t like it, go live in the woods”? 

    Laughed at no-name attorneys telling you to stop? 

    Bragged about turning bad publicity into leads?

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  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
    Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:
    Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:

    Olszak Realty... where do not call meets do not care.

     Nice, if you read my last post, I clearly state that if someone has a phone number and is not on the DNC list.

    I'm not the type to call and badger, folks either want to sell or they don't, there isn't much convincing to be done. So as soon as I get a NO I'm on to the next call and you're off my list. And if you are in the DNC you aren't on my list to begin with...plenty of other numbers to ring without having to break the law.

    Oh sorry, I was responding to your first few emails...

    Remember the ones where you basically said “if you don’t like it, go live in the woods”? 

    Laughed at no-name attorneys telling you to stop? 

    Bragged about turning bad publicity into leads?

    Apples and oranges. You accused me of breaking the law. I work within the law, and stated prior that there are folks who go nuts when they are contacted (or simply when I attempt to contact) just once and then start all the law talk on me. My point is if you aren't interested, just say no. That's all you have to do. I don't need a silly $100-per-letter attorney calling me to make that happen. But there are people who go through all that trouble of getting an attorney involved instead of using a 0.5 sec. solution. My call or letter is apparently such an intrusion, but yet they have time to spend an hour writing a long-winded complaint or consulting with an attorney.

    If you don't want to be contacted by other people, yes, go live in the woods and disconnect yourself.

    Its amazing that somehow being advertised to yourselves is BAD, but you go on any other part of this site and will read countless threads about how to "target" IE "market to", IE "contact", IE "invade the privacy of" distressed sellers so you can get a deal.

    0Reply
  • Tom GimerBusiness Member
    DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:
    Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
    Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:
    Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:

    Olszak Realty... where do not call meets do not care.

     Nice, if you read my last post, I clearly state that if someone has a phone number and is not on the DNC list.

    I'm not the type to call and badger, folks either want to sell or they don't, there isn't much convincing to be done. So as soon as I get a NO I'm on to the next call and you're off my list. And if you are in the DNC you aren't on my list to begin with...plenty of other numbers to ring without having to break the law.

    Oh sorry, I was responding to your first few emails...

    Remember the ones where you basically said “if you don’t like it, go live in the woods”? 

    Laughed at no-name attorneys telling you to stop? 

    Bragged about turning bad publicity into leads?

    Apples and oranges. You accused me of breaking the law. I work within the law, and stated prior that there are folks who go nuts when they are contacted (or simply when I attempt to contact) just once and then start all the law talk on me. My point is if you aren't interested, just say no. That's all you have to do. I don't need a silly $100-per-letter attorney calling me to make that happen. But there are people who go through all that trouble of getting an attorney involved instead of using a 0.5 sec. solution. My call or letter is apparently such an intrusion, but yet they have time to spend an hour writing a long-winded complaint or consulting with an attorney.

    If you don't want to be contacted by other people, yes, go live in the woods and disconnect yourself.

    Its amazing that somehow being advertised to yourselves is BAD, but you go on any other part of this site and will read countless threads about how to "target" IE "market to", IE "contact", IE "invade the privacy of" distressed sellers so you can get a deal.

    Haha. You and James Wise went to the same law school, eh?

    I made a joke about Olszak Realty and oh boy now we've got another potential defamation suit on our hands.

    I honestly don't care how you run your business but it's well within my right to joke about it.

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  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @Matthew Olszak

    Somehow I have managed to stay in business for 28+ years without cold calling or sending unsolicited emails. I guess my abilities and product are able to stand on their own

    This post barely exceeded .5 seconds 

    4Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Greg H.:

    @Matthew Olszak

    Somehow I have managed to stay in business for 28+ years without cold calling or sending unsolicited emails. I guess my abilities and product are able to stand on their own

    This post barely exceeded .5 seconds 

     one of the stranger threads I have read on BP... I really could not understand the first guy..

    and I don't know what the heart burn is about Jim is simply broker selling real estate.. and brokers in his type of business use all sorts of advertising.

    when my wife takes a listing it auto populates to like 25 sites.. its part of being a full service brokerage.. at least in the retail end of things..

    in the distressed space we did door knock.. as so many distressed owners simply would not respond to anything other than someone talking to them belly to belly.. but out here on the west coast most of those techniques are now illegal as it relates to distressed ( in foreclosure ) assets.

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  • Matt P.
    Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 625 posts · 601 votes
    8y
    This is crazy. With all the scams you read about on here this guy makes a post basically just letting us know what happened in a curious exchange by PM and half the replies are people coming on here accusing him of slander. SMH.
    1Reply
  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    8y

    I understand the OP's concern.  What started out like a causal message about sharing knowledge appeared to turn into a sales front to push an agenda.  Assuming he was not the only one contacted in this manner it would appear to be a bait and switch and he was simply asking how that falls into the rules of the site.  

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  • Brent Coombs
    Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Brie Schmidt:

    I find it super unprofessional when my email automatically gets added to a list.  I unsubscribe and will forever have a negative impression of that company.  It makes me feel that they are desperate for business so just need to blast out as many people as possible and hope someone sticks 

    Brie, maybe you could consider not placing your email address on every one of your posts?... 

    1Reply
  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:
    Originally posted by @Brie Schmidt:

    I find it super unprofessional when my email automatically gets added to a list.  I unsubscribe and will forever have a negative impression of that company.  It makes me feel that they are desperate for business so just need to blast out as many people as possible and hope someone sticks 

    Brie, maybe you could consider not placing your email address on every one of your posts?... 

     It is in the signature line - I can't choose which posts get it and which posts do not.  

    Just cause my email address is on a public forum, it does not give someone the right to add me to a list and spam me.  It is a federal offense and enforced by the FTC

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  • Tim B.
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pensacola, FL · Member since 2017 · 33 posts · 24 votes
    8y

    Ugh...I'm here or RE Education not this bickering.

    How many different arguments can he have in this post. 

    I"m glad there are so many more posts to read around here :D  

    Next!

    0Reply
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