Updating the BiggerPockets Influence System

Joshua D. · 2012-03-13T10:22:57-07:00

Hey All - One of our upcoming projects is to update our influence system to one that better reflects a user's influence on the site. We will be transforming the system from the current limitless influence scale to a 0 to 100 scale, where all new users start at 50, and can work down or up from there. Active users who have influence points currently will be placed in the new system based on their current influence. That said, one of the important factors of our new system will be a time decay of influence, so those people who may have been active in the past, but who are no longer active, will slowly lose points over time. Ultimately, we're interested in hearing from you, what makes you trust OR NOT trust someone on the site? We want to take as many factors into account as possible so this system has some meaning and shows at any given time who the influencers are, and I'm looking to you for your feedback. One of the things I'm most interested in hearing about is user feedback on negatives and the drivers of a user losing "points" on our scale. Thanks and I look forward to a lively and respectful debate.

Bill Gulley

Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes

14y

Originally posted by Joshua Dorkin:

Mark Updegraff - If you get a job at BiggerPockets or become an investor in the company, I'd be happy to provide the ingredients to the special sauce, but otherwise, we're going to keep that close to the vest so as to avoid what happened with the last system.

LOL, but, we need to know if the ingredients will kill us or make us sick too, what there is in it, but not so much the amount.

I saw one who had a score in the 60s in a couple days he is up to96 and has not been burning up the board. Mine went up and is on the way down in a couple days.

So, if I leave my computer on and on BP, just walk away, does it put me in a slot as a lurker or something and begin deducting points?

Things such as that should be explained IMO as we may be making unintentional mistakes just because we don't know.

BTW, I'm not big on the badge thing either. If you do it, you decide, not a group of regulars allowing someone in a club type of thing.

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Michael Lauther

Investor · Hampton Bays, NY · Member since 2009 · 907 posts · 258 votes

14y

Went to bed a score of 64 woke up a 62 now if only my age could move in the same direction as easily . Not too concerned but if we are going to have a score it should have some credibility.

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Carlos Flores

Commercial Real Estate Lender / Syndicator · Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 888 posts · 309 votes

14y

I observed my number go up after I made a few posts. This occurred while many were at the Summit, and there was less people posting. Later, when everyone was back, I made a few posts again. It didn't go up. While not specifically tied to the number of posts, it made me think the algorithm may include percent of posts. I wasn't trying to test it. Just happened to have something to say in the forums.

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Ray S.

Property Manager · houston, TX · Member since 2010 · 48 posts · 20 votes

14y

First of all Joshua, thanks for all you do, but (the but takes away everything before it),

Some earlier comments that reflect my cynical perspective.

"There's a lot of us, and a lot of old school investors, just doing deals and not spending all of our time texting on our smart phones. Work on getting the best and the experienced here"

"It seems to be a marketing gig designed to encourage constant posting. Should you actually have something more important to attend to in your life for awhile, the "time decay" factor appears to decimate your score. So it looks like it's focused on driving site traffic."

Joshua you are in the ring and all of my respect goes to you, the contender, but, I dont think anybody who is knowledgable and a regular contributor needs their numbers to drop. Bad business. They are the Golden Goose.

Since this is a forums area, then the real value to the forum is CONTENT. People know content when they see it. Preserve the purveyors of content at all cost. If a poster is serving 5 to 10 for racketeering or buys a 450 unit rehab project doesn't mean his influence should drop, just because they are out of circulation. Both can probably deliver golden eggs.

IMO Forget influence, who knows what that means anyway. Change it to "Content Contribution" or Contributor. Use a scale of 1 to 5 when they vote. If they are a noob then weight it as such, if the voter has more knowledge then give the vote more weight(still a popularity contest).

Incidentaly I see the button that says VOTE. What am I voting on? Popularity? Friendliness, knowledge of the subject. Are the votes i get factored by the knowledge level of the person making the votes?

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Ann Bellamy

Lender · Tyngsboro, MA · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

14y

I also see my score go down overnight. I have logged in every day and posted every day (at least I think I have, I've been travelling) and it still goes down. That doesn't make sense to me, I can understand if it would stay the same, but not go down. That's kind of demotivating.

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Bill Gulley

Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes

14y

Josh has done an outstanding job with BP and has the best small RE investor site on the internet, IMO. What ever drives this new system it's clearly up to him and if it is designed to advance the site in a way he wishes to conduct his business, that's clearly his decission and more power to him.

I saw David Beard's "score" and I'm familiar with posts David has made, if his score is to be reflective of his RE knowledge, it is woefully inadequate, it's not even close to reflecting his advice given.

Michael Q's is another who has expertise in RE that is being grossly under rated as reflected by his score.

Michael L and Ann B are in the same boat.

So, IMO, the system as it is right now does not come close in identifying those with RE expertise and should not be relied upon as such.

And no, I'm not angry that my score droped again overnight...

I also see a few with scores in the mid 90s and when I compare their level of expertise to others I know there clearly has to be other factors that are totally unrelated to RE expertise that put them in that standing.

So I'd suggest we give Josh time to get his bugs worked out (if that is ever possible as it may need constant tweeking) and see how it goes.

I think a better indication as to who the newbies might give greater weight to would be from member's profile page and the number of followers and colleagues (while considering how long that person has been on this site as well) as it reflects how many others value their advice.

I'm just going to consider the "influence" system as an influence to or in the site, more like a partcipation rather than a positive influence by other members, it certainly does not reflect my opinion of other contributors!

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Joshua D.Pro Member

OP

BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes

14y

Originally posted by Bill Gulley:

I'm just going to consider the "influence" system as an influence to or in the site, more like a partcipation rather than a positive influence by other members, it certainly does not reflect my opinion of other contributors!

That's precisely what it was intended for; nothing more, nothing less.

If we were going to claim that it was the measure of someone's expertise, we'd have named it something like the "Expertise Index." That kind of rating system would be infinitely more complex, and subject to an incredible amount of interpretation. I've contemplated such an idea, but I don't believe that we should play judge and jury on who is an expert on something; that is up to you -- just as in the real world, you must do your due diligence.

Someone on the site can have a very high influence score, but may not necessarily be an expert investor. In fact, I'd say that most people with the highest influence now and before the change, would all agree that they are not experts in every facet of investing.

Bottom line -- I'm not interested in building an "index of experts" because again, that is just so subjective, but want a system that indicates who is the most influential on the site and to the site at a given point in time. I'd say that our system does a pretty good job of that, though as I've said countless times before, it will never be perfect.

An infinite scoring system just can't measure that, and a score that never declines can't either.

To those that want to stop using the site because they don't like their scores, I certainly hope you won't do that, but I can't stop you. You're not going to like everything we do here, but I believe that overall, we do it better than any other site in the space, and hope you will see that and continue to use the site.

Thanks for the understanding.

Podcast Guest on Show #100

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Bill Gulley

Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes

14y

Thanks Josh, I tried giving you a vote but it didn't take, lol.

You may have mentioned that before and it didn't sink in with me or others, so we are looking at this in the wrong light.

Maybe you should simply call it something else other than "influence" since that implies a degree of influence gained by the information posted, it is a reasonable assumption based on comments in this thread.

Maybe something like BP Score, Site Contributor Score....something that makes it a little clearer that it doesn't reflect the quality of advice by that member.

Other suggestions????

And again, thanks for the clarification Josh....

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Account Closed

Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

Some interesting responses here to the new "Influence" point system. Those that say they are concerned about their own points not being high enough, those that find their points being lowered as a dis-incentive to post: please know that's exactly what a voting and point system is intended to do. It's supposed to bring you back to the site because you won't be able to resist attempting to improve your own score. It's a petty game, but it works. It's all about site traffic people. It's Josh's job to get you to come here repeatedly. Otherwise he has nothing to sell advertisers. It would be a bad business decision to eliminate a system that works.

We could revolt. We could ask that there be no Influence system. We could ask for more site moderators in order to keep content on track. More of us could PAY so that the site has to cater to customers as opposed to traffic numbers. Just something to think about. How about creating an RE networking/information site that 10,000 people or more couldn't resist paying for?

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Rich Weese

Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

Chris Martin- Thanks for the offer of your influence points, lol. As I said, I'm just happy to be here. I don't put much thought into this. It can just die, imo. I wonder how the posts would drop by certain BP members, if there WASN'T an influence game. I go on the record here and now. I'll continue posting the same with or without an influence system- it means zero to me. Like others, it is pretty easy to know who is good after awhile and who has ulterior motives... Rich
p.s. Like others, my # continues to drop, so I must be doing something bad!

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Michael Quarles

Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

@Rich can I borrow a number. I'm almost at the second best number in life 69 Maybe I'll achieve heaven on earth with this useless post and won't need the loan.

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Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member

Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 689 votes

14y

Joshua Dorkin It kinda made me cancel my pro account.

I think the people you want to attract here are more aware of their content than your typical user of social media.

If I'm blogging on your site, or providing answers to questions, I'm giving you free content.

That should not be penalized in any way. Decreasing influence on active members is bad practice IMO. I would get rid of it all together before going that route. But that is just me. Maybe I'll reactivate my pro account and keep contributing... maybe something else will happen.

Down to 68
Mark

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Steve Babiak

Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes

14y

Josh,

I see a number of frequent posters who have voiced their concerns about declining influence. Maybe you could arrange things so that people get some sort of notification explaining the decline whenever that happens, whatever the reason: did not login, did not post, posted spam, post in incorrect forum, violation of rules, etc.

This would allow for the person experiencing the decline to take corrective action in the future, without exposing the entire algorithm / formula being used to obtain the influence number. And if they're on vacation with their IPad, they can climb back up ...

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Joshua D.Pro Member

OP

BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes

14y

Steve Babiak - The algorithm takes into account a user's activity on the site, their connections, and the activity of other users in response to that activity. Influence is also relative, so a user with more influence can have more of an affect on the influence of others, and it is certainly more difficult to increase influence as your score increases. Also, as I explained above, there is a slight decay over time.

That said, as I mentioned above, influence in no way designates expertise or experience -- simply the influence of a user on the site at a given point in time.

Lastly, there are no current plans to design a system to 'judge' users based on expertise or experience.

I hope that puts many questions and concerns to rest -- again, this system is ONLY a reflection of a user's activity and "influence" here on BiggerPockets for a given point in time -- NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Podcast Guest on Show #100

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Jake Kucheck

Residential Real Estate Agent · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 380 votes

14y

After initially being a fairly silent critic of the new system... I have to admit its premise is starting to grow on me.

The phrase that comes to mind is "if you're not moving forward, you're moving backward". A system that penalizes complacency in addition to negative content is, after some thought, actually pretty cool.

Probably doesn't hurt site traffic, either ;)

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Luis A.

Real Estate Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2009 · 339 posts · 126 votes

14y

Originally posted by Mark Updegraff:

Joshua Dorkin : I'm pretty sure my influence dropped a point or two in the last day or so... are there guidelines for this new system?

can we at least find out what takes us down in points?

If content is king, why punish active members?

This new influence system has more of a negative feel for me now. It will probably actually make me less active here on BP :-/

The above comment reflects my opinion almost exactly. Like others have already reported I have seen my influence drop over the last week who knows why (that is the most frustrating, not knowing why).

So initially this is a slight demotivator for keeping on coming back...

I see people with half my posts and higher influence than me and people with much more posts than me with the same influence...what gives?

Originally posted by Joshua Dorkin:

Bottom line -- I'm not interested in building an "index of experts" because again, that is just so subjective, but want a system that indicates who is the most influential on the site and to the site at a given point in time.

How can you indicate that with a "green meter thing"? You can only figure that out by participating...

Why would you want to jeopardize the participation of active, contributing, helpful members over a "green meter thing" that no two people can agree on what it means?

Josh, I appreciate the site and the work you do to put it all together, I really do. But I just don't see the point with this obsession over quantifying influence. Let the content speak for itself.

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James Vermillion

Lexington, KY · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

14y

It is 0657 and I still do not care about my influence points (which have fallen over the past several weeks). I have not been as active in the past several weeks due to a busy schedule and some upcoming life changes. The fact that my influence points have fallen do not bother me one bit, why? Because anyone who visits BP very often will see my posts and make a decision about me on their own. They can look at my post counts and get an idea about how active I have been on the site and they will make a decision about me, some good and some bad. So, to those who are so upset about the influence system...what’s the big deal? Have you really been participating on BP to gain points? That seems very video gamish to me...trying to increase your level. I come back to BP because of the amazing content, the incredible posters and the relationships I have formed over the past couple years, all of which have not been affected by the algorithm change to the influence points.

I do understand that some people may not like the system, but it is one of hundreds of features on BP. I ask that those who do not like the system and are feeling less compelled to post re-assess their position, as we should all continue to grow the community. We need to keep in mind that Josh does have to make a lot of decisions and he cannot keep everyone happy, but at the end of the day he relies on BP and has to do what helps him and the community. He may make a poor decision in someone’s eyes, but that is not a reason to give up on the BP community, especially if you have gained a lot from it.

I hope to continue to see everyone around, no matter what your influence points turn out to be, as you all add something to BP and have probably helped someone and do not even know it.

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Luis A.

Real Estate Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2009 · 339 posts · 126 votes

14y

Originally posted by James Vermillion:

...Because anyone who visits BP very often will see my posts and make a decision about me on their own. They can look at my post counts and get an idea about how active I have been on the site and they will make a decision about me, some good and some bad.

Exactly! So what is the use of the system then? (other than create confusion and perception instead of reality)

Originally posted by James Vermillion:

So, to those who are so upset about the influence system...what’s the big deal?

IMO, that it's confusing and will cause false perceptions.

No, therefore what is the purpose of a point/meter system?

Completely agree. So should your "influence" go down as you continue to grow the community?
-----------------------------------------------

Not to beat a dead horse but what I suggest is that the influence system takes away from the true BP user experience by focusing on a number/green meter. Then since it's so complicated to find something that is fair it should not be done, just scrape it and let the content and participation be influence enough.

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James Vermillion

Lexington, KY · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

14y

Luis A., I agree and if it were up to me I would get rid of the influence points, but it is not and I will not let one thing I do not necessarily like dissuade me from utilizing the many other features...I simply ignore it. My point was very simple...I am asking people who do not agree with the system to keep growing BP, regardless of how it impacts your "score".

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Michael Quarles

Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

Originally posted by Michael Quarles:

@Joshua

As I said before I would vote to be able to turn off viewing the influence ranking as a paying member. If members want to see the influence points of others they can leave their switch on..

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David Wedemire

Real Estate Investor · Bellingham, WA · Member since 2008 · 407 posts · 90 votes

14y

I don't know of any one I have been in contact with on BP that contacted me because of my influence meter. Most of then don't understand what it signifies. The contacted me because of something I posted.

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Luis A.

Real Estate Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2009 · 339 posts · 126 votes

14y

Originally posted by David Wedemire:

...Most of then don't understand what it signifies.

My point exactly.

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Thomas Salomone

Developer · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2011 · 12 posts · 1 vote

14y

I personally like the new scale. I think it's simple and will be effective. The badges are a good idea but I feel like there should be more badges that are possible to earn.

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Michael Quarles

Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

Let me add:

Josh could have killed this topic a long time ago.,, it takes a great mind to let us rant. Just another reason I show up.

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Rich Weese

Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

Josh- Just wanted to say, "hope you're having a great day." Good luck with this influence system-impossible to satisfy everyone. Rich

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Updating the BiggerPockets Influence System

Updating the BiggerPockets Influence System

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