Updating the BiggerPockets Influence System

Joshua D. · 2012-03-13T10:22:57-07:00

Hey All - One of our upcoming projects is to update our influence system to one that better reflects a user's influence on the site. We will be transforming the system from the current limitless influence scale to a 0 to 100 scale, where all new users start at 50, and can work down or up from there. Active users who have influence points currently will be placed in the new system based on their current influence. That said, one of the important factors of our new system will be a time decay of influence, so those people who may have been active in the past, but who are no longer active, will slowly lose points over time. Ultimately, we're interested in hearing from you, what makes you trust OR NOT trust someone on the site? We want to take as many factors into account as possible so this system has some meaning and shows at any given time who the influencers are, and I'm looking to you for your feedback. One of the things I'm most interested in hearing about is user feedback on negatives and the drivers of a user losing "points" on our scale. Thanks and I look forward to a lively and respectful debate.

Chris Martin

Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

Originally posted by Joshua Dorkin:

No plans to remove old posts right now.

An FYI... The link to the post earlier in this topic by Steve Babiak on March 21 http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/97/topics/36164-protocol-for-purchase-of-reo-s-bank-notes leads to This topic could not be found....

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Michael Lauther

Investor · Hampton Bays, NY · Member since 2009 · 907 posts · 258 votes

14y

I have rarely given the old influence number much consideration. Looking at members numbers in the thousands for some reason did not have much impact. The new system appears to be more usable if not an accurate prediction of the posters knowledge. I was curious to see the numbers of posters that I have gained respect for over the course of my membership and find those whose opinions and information it trust most are those with the highest scores in the new system. I believe a system that rates influence is useful both to the sites value and to the members as long as we understand what the system can and can not evaluate.

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Ned CareyPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes

14y

Joshua Dorkin you asked "what makes you trust OR NOT trust someone on the site?"

1) Does the poster back up what he or she says?
Is the post one or two lines without any reasons for what they say? Or have they backed up their facts or opinion. One exception would be a poster I already know is credible, for example Jon Holdman. Of course people like Jon usually do back up what they say.

2) Is the poster a good communicator?
Do they make their point clearly and effectively? Do they ramble on with excessively long posts?

3) Does what they are saying make sense given what I already know about real estate?

4) Is it a "me too" answer?
Is the poster simply repeating in another way what has already been written? Is the poster adding to the discussion by adding detail or elaborating on what has already been written? Or is it a short comment just repeating what has been said much better above?

5) Is the post obviously self promoting?
Is the post is clearly solely for self promotion or only marginally related to the thread? If in replying to a post on tax liens I say "I write a lot about tax liens at the site in my signature below" and that is all I say, I've added no value. If I give an answer in detail on on point and add as an aside about my site I have added value.

The above is mostly subjective, but I see three ways you could incorporate the comments above into the influence algorithm.

Length of post
Very short posts could be rated lower. In fact VERY long posts might also be rated lower, however a little research would be needed to validate my "extra long post is bad" theory.

Where is the comment within the thread?
Comments that come late in very long threads could be rated lower. These are often of the "me two" type or off topic chit chat only of interest to a couple of people following the thread. I see this a lot on long threads with many comments.

Personally I rarely post this late in a thread. If the original post is a question I know someone else knowledgeable here, has already answered it as well or better than I can.

Replies to very old threads
This is a common tactic of spammers on blog comments. On Bigger Pockets it is more likely for self promotion or someone who just wants to hear themselves talk. The original poster probably isn't very interested in his or her own thread 1-2 years later. The comment is not likely to add much value to the Bigger Pockets community.

OK, I have probably broken at least a few of my own rules here. But I though it important enough to take the time to comment. I hope you find it worthwhile.

Ned

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Will BarnardPro Member

Moderator

Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes

14y

Chris Martin - That post you referred to (and others like it) were deleted not because they are old, but rather due to something going wrong in the thread. For instance, the thread turned into too many spammers or solicitations or the thread turned into an argument between parties tossing out personal attacks, and so forth.
I seriously doubt that threads with great content will ever be deleted due to age. Just like an encyclopedia, we can go back and refer to content of these old threads to refresh or get an answer to a question we may have.

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Jerry K.

Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes

14y

I do have one valid reason for why I might comment on an old thread. Being newer to BiggerPockets (less than 3 months) I have been reading older threads to see if my questions have been asked/answered.

If circumstances have changed since the original thread was started, I like to add my comment and ask if now (a year or two later) people have changed their opinions/answers.

By commenting on the old thread I acknowledge the topic has been discussed in the past and I have done research before posting. It gives other newer participants a chance to see the original post and re-ignite a topic that circumstances may have changed opinions over time.

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Will BarnardPro Member

Moderator

Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes

14y

Back to this topic, as I discussed my opinion with Josh in person, I do not see a value to us members in the new influence system and prefer an idea of a badge system with some democratic means to get a badge, thus removing just about all possibilities for the system to be "cheated" and to provide more valid confirmation (for lack of a better word) to users on who is an expert in what field(s).

The idea would be to get rid of the point system and replace with a badge system. For instance, it is clear to me that Peter Giardini is an expert in landlording and I know this from his posts here on BP and also from his wonderful presentation at the Summit. So, I would recommend him for a "landlord" badge and to avoid favoritism, he would also have to have "X" amount of recommendations to be considered. Once considered, a selected group of 5, 7, or 9 (selected by the dictator Joshua Dorkin ) would vote on the recommendations before that member would be granted the badge. The democratic portion of this idea was actually from Jake Kucheck who added this to the badge idea.

What this does in my mind is enables those perhaps not familiar with a certain poster (particularly new members who don't hardly know anybody here yet) to confirm that they have expertise in a specific subject. So if a new member reads a post thread from Pete on Landlording, they would see he has that badge and would feel more "comfortable" knowing his answer likely holds more weight than say another poster without the same badge (not always true in all cases, but at least it is better than some arbitrary influence number).

I suggest this be the system implemented for BP Nation, it is only my opinion & my suggestion.

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Michael Quarles

Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

IMHO the "Influence" system is as bad as the idea of "Labeling" people.

I am absolutely certain having a low score or a high score doesn’t equate to ability or reliability. Having a rating system on what someone says or types is like rating everything Bill Maher or Rush Limbaugh say as correct and should be followed without regard for their personal perspectives. It isn’t practical. And frankly can lead to disaster for someone who may interpret the influence points of a posters comments as a righteous investment strategy.

I personally would vote to have a switch to turn off seeing the influence system when I sign on.. I would rather use my judgment and not be influenced by someone’s agenda.

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Uwe S.

Property Manager · Dublin, OH · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 291 votes

14y

After some days with the new system I see one bad side, I grew from 75 - 84 points in these days. Will and Josh have now 100 points, starting from 91-93 points.
With some spend of time a newbie can rush his points very fast. Its a little bit easy to reach 100 points.

-Uwe

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Joshua D.Pro Member

OP

BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes

14y

Uwe S. - As I said earlier, the algorithm will take some adjustment, and we've made several tweaks thus far. Many more to come . . . we'll get there.

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Uwe S.

Property Manager · Dublin, OH · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 291 votes

14y

Sorry Joshua Dorkin I must skip that.

-Uwe

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Karen MargraveBusiness Member

Moderator

Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes

14y

A badge system becomes a popularity contest too, and would not necessarily mean someone knows more than someone else, that might actually live in the same state and know specifics on laws, codes, etc. Personally the influence system is amusing, but not really that helpful. I've seen very good advice and wisdom coming from new members, and some not so good from others with high numbers. In addition, longer responses aren't better than short sweet and to the point. Just my opinion!

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James H.

Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes

14y

Okay, I kind of feel like Austin Powers when I see this thread popping up anew so much. I hear, "WHY WON'T YOU DIE?!?!?!?!?!!" in my head, lol!

But seriously, one thing I notice is that the 100 point system does not appear to adequately represent the disparity between one highly reputable person such as Will Barnard and one mediocre contributor such as myself. On the old system, Will had like 800% more influence than me (or some huge number), and I think that is appropriate. Now he shows less than 40% more influence above me. I think new members should at least start at zero, and I think a larger scale or introducing more significant digits (82.3, 85.6, etc) could better represent the breadth of knowledge here. It's giving a single math test to students from elementary school all the way to the pHD level and then comparing results by having such a limited scale. I may be just blowing hot air since the new system is already in place, but maybe it could be easily tweaked? Also, if it doesn't change it will not break my heart!

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Ed O.

Investor · Statewide, MO · Member since 2011 · 814 posts · 425 votes

14y

I'd suggest adding awards for Presenting @ the summit +10 points or so and for attending the summit +5 points. Both actions show that a person is committed to developing their business and gives them credibility, especially the speakers. I'd also suggest not penalizing those who do not make it to the summit as well on the system. Thinking i could be used as a plus for those that were able to get there. If this was mentioned in the previous 150 posts, please forgive me, In just haven't had the time to review everyone else's ideas.
Just my .02, but I think it makes sense.
Also, by default, Brian Hancock should get a 99. He was losing in fast on 100,000 influence on the old system. That's unspeakably good!

@

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Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member

Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 690 votes

14y

Joshua Dorkin what is the algorithm?

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Joshua D.Pro Member

OP

BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes

14y

Mark Updegraff - If you get a job at BiggerPockets or become an investor in the company, I'd be happy to provide the ingredients to the special sauce, but otherwise, we're going to keep that close to the vest so as to avoid what happened with the last system.

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Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member

Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 690 votes

14y

Joshua Dorkin Trade Secrets :D I'm guessing the "donate" is a weighted parameter. Only one way to find out ;-) ;-)

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Karen MargraveBusiness Member

Moderator

Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes

14y

Since we're discussing "influence", upon starting the new group for Orange County, CA Real Estate, I wanted to "invite friends", however; when clicking on that link both on the group site, and on the home page of BP (to invite friends to BP) I keep getting an error message. Also, I have a link on my website for Bigger Pockets.

I don't think there's any accurate way to guage the "influence" any one member has, because there's no one way to spread the word about the site. The fact that some of have been on longer than others, or make more posts, doesn't necessarily mean they are more knowledgable, about any given topic, only that they found BP sooner, and have been posting longer. Someone much more experienced could join today, and their influence would still be less.

Personally, I come on here to see if there's anything new, find out what's going on in other areas of the country, learn from other-, in other words, network with other investors, developers, agents, contractors, lenders, etc. and for that, IT'S GREAT!!

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Will BarnardPro Member

Moderator

Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes

14y

I disagree. The way I laid it out, one can only get a badge through a democratic process with multiple layers, that avoids chances of popularity contests.

Either way, badge system or the new current system, I will continue to somewhat ignore the points anyways and weigh more on the content of each member's info they post as well as the ability to network with others to do deals. While I am hear to "give back" knowledge I have gained, I am also here to do deals with other like-minded individuals.

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Rich Weese

Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

I probably won't earn points for this,,,,,but, I'm just happy to be here! Rich

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Chris Martin

Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

Well, Rich, I hear you! I gave you a vote. As far as I am concerned, you can have my 64 influence. That would give you 162. Not bad on a scale of 50 to 100 like the current system.

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David Beard

Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes

14y

The influence scoring seems pretty ridiculous (I'm a big boy, so I won't say it's demoralizing, but at a minimum somewhat irritating to have to stare at the large number there). It seems to be a marketing gig designed to encourage constant posting. Should you actually have something more important to attend to in your life for awhile, the "time decay" factor appears to decimate your score. So it looks like it's focused on driving site traffic.

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Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member

Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 690 votes

14y

Joshua Dorkin : I'm pretty sure my influence dropped a point or two in the last day or so... are there guidelines for this new system?

can we at least find out what takes us down in points?

If content is king, why punish active members?

This new influence system has more of a negative feel for me now. It will probably actually make me less active here on BP :-/

Cheers,
Mark

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Uwe S.

Property Manager · Dublin, OH · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 291 votes

14y

Originally posted by Mark Updegraff:

Joshua Dorkin : I'm pretty sure my influence dropped a point or two in the last day or so...
Cheers,
Mark

Yes Mark, same here I lost 4 points now from 85-81 in three days, okay posted only 2 answers in this time but this is a little bit fast loss. If you in vacation 14 days you will drop 20 points or so with 70 points you will be a newbie with 50 points then.

-Uwe

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Joshua D.Pro Member

OP

BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes

14y

As I've said before, we're making adjustments to the algorithm, and have several more to make in the coming days. The system will never be perfect, but we're aiming to make it a lot more fair than it once was.

Like the old system and many other functions of the site, not everyone is going to be a huge fan. I certainly hope that influence is only a minor factor in the reason why they use the site.

Thanks again for the feedback.

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Michael Quarles

Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

14y

@Joshua

As I said before I would vote to be able to turn off viewing the influence ranking as a paying member. If members want to see the influence points of others they can leave their switch on..

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Updating the BiggerPockets Influence System

Updating the BiggerPockets Influence System

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