OHio Multifamily R20 insulation requirement for new roofs

14 Replies

Greeting;

Today, while gathering information for obtaining a bid on 7,200 sq ft of flat roof for a 38 unit apartment complex, I was told that in Cincinnati, Hamilton County, if a permit is pulled for a re-roof, prior to issuing the permit, the building department must inspect and verify that R20 insulation is in the rafters. 

No R20, no re-roof permit. 

How long has this requirement been in place?

DL

@Ben Leybovich this  (insulation) looks to be (approximately) another $12,000 capex every 12 to 15 years (flat commercial roof) in addition to the roof itself. (Assuming that they put rigid insulation boards down under the rubber roof, as opposed to taking down the ceiling of all of the upstairs apartments, installing R20 insulation between the ceiling joists, and then reinstalling drywall, texture and paint. Ben, I've never seen this discussed on BP. Is this an Ohio "green" statute or is this just a "Hamilton County" requirement?

Originally posted by NA Martin:

Greeting;

Today, while gathering information for obtaining a bid on 7,200 sq ft of flat roof for a 38 unit apartment complex, I was told that in Cincinnati, Hamilton County, if a permit is pulled for a re-roof, prior to issuing the permit, the building department must inspect and verify that R20 insulation is in the rafters. 

No R20, no re-roof permit. 

How long has this requirement been in place?

DL

@Ben Leybovich this  (insulation) looks to be (approximately) another $12,000 capex every 12 to 15 years (flat commercial roof) in addition to the roof itself. (Assuming that they put rigid insulation boards down under the rubber roof, as opposed to taking down the ceiling of all of the upstairs apartments, installing R20 insulation between the ceiling joists, and then reinstalling drywall, texture and paint. Ben, I've never seen this discussed on BP. Is this an Ohio "green" statute or is this just a "Hamilton County" requirement?

 Flat roofs are a pin in the *** in Mid West. I was once on a roof with 2 feet of standing water. If you are flipping it, then pay for the insulation and sell to an idiot.  And if you're looking to hold an old PIG with a flat roof in Cinci - well, you are the idiot! hahaha

Seriously, DL - these flat roofs cannot be held long term. They are nothing but one leak after the next. The only thing worse are the boilers... I won't buy a building that requires to hold more than 5 years with a flat roof!

Flat roofs are horrible, if its a keeper I'd frame a real roof over it. 

Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich

 Flat roofs are a pin in the *** in Mid West. I was once on a roof with 2 feet of standing water. If you are flipping it, then pay for the insulation and sell to an idiot.  And if you're looking to hold an old PIG with a flat roof in Cinci - well, you are the idiot! hahaha

Points taken Ben.

But I am in a position where I have to 1031 forward gains from the sale of a CA 4 plex (closes tomorrow), so I have to choose from the "value add" local properties available and negotiate for the best Value Add deal that I can find.

I hate/do not believe in property management companies, so I guess I will spend the next 10-15 years "working in" my business instead of "working on" my business. 

I retired this past Fall and I'm already ready to un-retire. Most people would think that taking a big, fat, obscene, unconscionable, UNSUSTAINABLE (blah blah blah) California public pension, and fleeing to the Midwest would be the ultimate golden parachute for a common, blue collar working man like myself. But if I'm not working, I'm not living. (proof positive of my limited intellectual capacity).

On a lighter note, I'm pretty happy that I've traded CA's 9.3% state income tax for Ohio's 4.4%. (and the suburb that I bought my Cincinnati home in exempts all pension income from the local income tax)

: )  

Oh, and my primary residence property tax bill dropped from $8k per year (CA) to $3,700 (OH) per year. And our car insurance dropped from $2,000 per year (CA) to $850 per year (OH). And our annual vehicle registration fees dropped from $1,000 per year (CA) to $180 per year (OH). And gasoline purchases  (using today's Gas Buddy prices) dropped from $4.09 per gallon (CA) to $2.56 per gallon (OH), and on and on and on... 

DL

Originally posted by @Chris Field :

Flat roofs are horrible, if its a keeper I'd frame a real roof over it. 

Seriously considering this. Thanks for the post. 

DL

Originally posted by NA Martin and I continually laugh at this very scenario: CA guys selling 4-plex and thinking it's a good idea to buy a 40-unit in Ohio. Why good idea - because you can afford it...

Do you see how asinine this logic is, DL? I won't buy it, and I am here. And when I tell you why not, you say - but I have a 1031 out of CA 4-plex that I have to place. lol This isn't the reason to buy anything, DL. We only buy good deals. That doesn't have anything to do with any other aspect of your financial life. Find a good deal first, then we talk. I told you why this is not it. That's my take...

Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich :
 
Do you see how asinine this logic is, DL? I won't buy it, and I am here. And when I tell you why not, you say - but I have a 1031 out of CA 4-plex that I have to place. lol This isn't the reason to buy anything, DL. We only buy good deals. That doesn't have anything to do with any other aspect of your financial life. Find a good deal first, then we talk. I told you why this is not it. That's my take...

Ouch!!!  

DL 

Originally posted by @Chris Field :

Flat roofs are horrible, if its a keeper I'd frame a real roof over it. 

 I completely disagree.  On the 38 unit in question, one can only imagine the staggering cost.  I like flat roofs.  EPDM is a wonderful material.  Most roofing companies on the other hand stink. 

Originally posted by NA Martin:
Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
 
Do you see how asinine this logic is, DL? I won't buy it, and I am here. And when I tell you why not, you say - but I have a 1031 out of CA 4-plex that I have to place. lol This isn't the reason to buy anything, DL. We only buy good deals. That doesn't have anything to do with any other aspect of your financial life. Find a good deal first, then we talk. I told you why this is not it. That's my take...

Ouch!!!  

DL 

 Yesterday I underwrite a 99 unit and 44 unit in Cinci. Today I underwrote an 80 unit also in Cinci. Passed on all. There are easier ways to make money than flat roofs and boilers in Mid-West. Just telling you the things I know to be true, DL :)

Flat roofs are not that big of a deal, there is a reason they are used in many commercial applications. The issue is with roofing companies. Spraying foam is an art and takes experience to grade it appropriately. Many roofers that do not specialize in flat roofs just purchase the equipment and spray the foam and brush a coat of elastomeric and call it a day. What you need to do is find a company that specializes in flat roofs and look at there work. Ask who will be spraying the foam. If installed properly it should last a long time. You would generally never have a reroof job, just maintenance every 10 years where you remediate blisters, fill low spots and apply a new coat of elastomeric. If applied inappropriately, it will pond water and will not last 2-3 years, especially where there is snow. The cost of maintaining a flat roof is generally considered cheaper and as such all the large commercial retail buildings use this material. I went through hell with improper installations until I found the right company that does it right.

What you want to do is go look at the roof after a long rain. There will be some ponding but it should not be more than 10-20% of the roof at most and it should be less than 3/4" after 24-48 hours. If it ponds on a greater area or more than an inch then it was installed incorrectly.

Regarding the CA 1031 money, yes we joke about that all the time. I find it interesting that you would move from CA to Ohio. Yes I understand the cost of living is less but Ohio? Why not AZ or FL? Same cost of living, lower property taxes and non of the snow or industrial grime. Bring your 1031 money to AZ and I'll show you some nice flat roof property:)


Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich :
Originally posted by @DL Martin:
Originally posted by @Ben Leybovich:
 
Do you see how asinine this logic is, DL? I won't buy it, and I am here. And when I tell you why not, you say - but I have a 1031 out of CA 4-plex that I have to place. lol This isn't the reason to buy anything, DL. We only buy good deals. That doesn't have anything to do with any other aspect of your financial life. Find a good deal first, then we talk. I told you why this is not it. That's my take...


Typical cost is $1/sq foot for maintenance (recoat and remediation) and $2/sq foot for a refoam. Tear down and new plywood is extra.

most of the problems around low slope roofing is design flaw or bad installation. If installed per specification (which is available on every manufacturers website) they are good systems. The mid west is still one of the regions of the U.S. where EPDM roofs are popular but the best systems today are TPO. They can be installed in various methods whether is be fully adhered or mechanically attached but the best part about them is they have heat welded seams which are the strongest point of the sheet vs. an EPDM seam which is an adheared seam and can fail if water ponds around it. You could build a pool liner out of TPO. Pounding water will not void the warranty on TPO. To control pounding water and have the correct slope for drainage, a tapered ISO insulation board can be used. The tapered design plan and take off can be geneated for very little money. Most of the problems I'm hearing here are with the roofer and not the roof b

Originally posted by NA Martin:

Greeting;

Today, while gathering information for obtaining a bid on 7,200 sq ft of flat roof for a 38 unit apartment complex, I was told that in Cincinnati, Hamilton County, if a permit is pulled for a re-roof, prior to issuing the permit, the building department must inspect and verify that R20 insulation is in the rafters. 

No R20, no re-roof permit. 

How long has this requirement been in place?

DL

@Ben Leybovich this  (insulation) looks to be (approximately) another $12,000 capex every 12 to 15 years (flat commercial roof) in addition to the roof itself. (Assuming that they put rigid insulation boards down under the rubber roof, as opposed to taking down the ceiling of all of the upstairs apartments, installing R20 insulation between the ceiling joists, and then reinstalling drywall, texture and paint. Ben, I've never seen this discussed on BP. Is this an Ohio "green" statute or is this just a "Hamilton County" requirement?

 @DL Martin  I might be able to help. PM me.

Originally posted by NA Martin:

Sounds like a Hamilton County requirement, but I only have one flat roof, so I'm not sure. However,

Depending on the roof condition there may be more options. I'm looking at doing a coating (GACO) over a flat roof I have.  much cheaper, still a long warranty.  The product looks pretty impressive.

My roofer been using it for a couple years now, and really likes it.

Originally posted by @Serge S. :
 
Regarding the CA 1031 money, yes we joke about that all the time. I find it interesting that you would move from CA to Ohio. Yes I understand the cost of living is less but Ohio? Why not AZ or FL? Same cost of living, lower property taxes and non of the snow or industrial grime. Bring your 1031 money to AZ and I'll show you some nice flat roof property:)
 

Serge, thanks for the info on the flat roofs/materials. I will do some research on those materials and application methods.

Why Ohio, and not AZ or FL?

Ohio has a Republican State House, Republican State Senate and Republican Governor. My vote, in California, hasn't counted in twenty years. The Florida and Arizona demographic are both rapidly trending toward liberalism. 

1. Prescott is beautiful but extremely isolated. (My family and I have spent 4 of the last 5 4th of July weekends in Prescott. We attend the "World's Oldest Rodeo" every Saturday night before the 4th.) Flag is even more isolated with fewer amenities. 

2. If I am going to live in the desert (Phoenix, Tuscon), then Las Vegas would be the only acceptable place to live. I once came out of a restaurant in Phoenix at 10:00 pm and it was 112 degrees. I lived in Riverside, CA and that place is hot as h$ll. Central and Southern AZ is even worse that Riverside. 

3. I love Jacksonville and to a lesser extent, Gainesville and all of Central Florida. (World Class water skiing/wake boarding). Tampa/Clearwater, however, is too much like SoCal, which I finally escaped from. South Florida is great for vacation but not a place that I would want to call home. (We will probably eventually buy a winter home in Jacksonville)

4. Cincinnati has the nicest/most polite people in the world. 

5. Cincinnati has division 1 college football and basketball, pro football, pro baseball, world class symphony orchestra, world class zoo, multiple major music venues, and excellent schools. My 12 year old is enrolled at the #1 public school in Ohio, #65 in the USA, per the US News and World Report Annual Ranking of Public High Schools. 

6. I'm 50 years old and I've been all over the country. Cincinnati is home and always will be.   : )

DL

p.s.  I have a 4 wheel drive and PRAY for snow. 

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