Duplexes, Triplexes, and Quads are NOT Multifamily!!

Duplexes, Triplexes, and Quads are NOT Multifamily!!

Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

Hi this is Swanny,

Please realize that single family, duplexes, triplexes and quads are valued based on Comparative Values or commonly known as Comps. You are at the mercy of comps when you buy, sell, or refinance these products. NOI and Cap rates have nothing to do with the valuation when you buy or sell either.

Now if you have a true apartment complex with 5 units or more, that is Multifamily. NOI, Cap Rates, etc... are ALL important when buying, selling or refinancing these products.

Hopefully, that helps a little for newbies that are asking these questions.  It is like comparing apples to oranges.  There is a world of difference between the two.

There is no comparison between the loan product on a 4 unit or less, fixed 30 year loan and 5 units or more Apartment loan 5+5 20 year amortization commercial loan and other variations.

On true Multifamily, every year, your lender needs to see your operating statement, tax returns, and demand you keep that DCR at 1.25 or higher and if not, need a plan to fix this problem. The bank's credit analyst watches carefully every year about tax time. Be very careful!!

Single family, on the other hand,  4 units or less is much less complicated, but you are at the TOTAL mercy of comps.  That is great when 4 units or less are rising across America like they are now.  However, when prices plummet, you are also at the mercy of comps too.  It is a double edged sword with single family.

There is a world of difference between single family (4units or less) and Multifamily (5 units or more). There are soooooooooo many many more differences, much more to list.  Maybe the rest of you that have apartment complexes (5 units or more) can add to my list.

If you don't know what you are doing, you can lose your you know what with true Multifamily. There are many land mines the u informed or inexperience could step on.  Although, the rewards on Apartment complexes are exponential if you know what you are doing!!!!

Swanny

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Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 292 votes
8y
Actually, anything at 2 units or more is a multifamily. It can’t be a single family home if you have 2 to 4 families living in separate apartments on the same building. If the idea is to clarify things for new investors I think we should not confuse things then. That being said, anything at 4 units or less is consider residential and anything at 5 units or more is considered commercial. Residential properties are valued according to comparables and commercial properties valued on NOI and CAP Rates. I agree with you on everything else. I just wanted to leave it clear and not cause confusion to new investors by calling a 4-plex a Single Family Property.
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  • Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 292 votes
    8y
    Actually, anything at 2 units or more is a multifamily. It can’t be a single family home if you have 2 to 4 families living in separate apartments on the same building. If the idea is to clarify things for new investors I think we should not confuse things then. That being said, anything at 4 units or less is consider residential and anything at 5 units or more is considered commercial. Residential properties are valued according to comparables and commercial properties valued on NOI and CAP Rates. I agree with you on everything else. I just wanted to leave it clear and not cause confusion to new investors by calling a 4-plex a Single Family Property.
  • Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    Unless you're using commercial financing for 1-4 unit, then income and DSCR are important factors.
  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y

    Random observation but I've never understood why members put 1-4 family residential posts in the commercial multifamily/apartment forum.

  • Mancelona, MI · Member since 2017 · 17 posts · 9 votes
    8y

    So what I understand is that anything under 4 is more like a regular home mortgage and 5 and over get into commercial/business type mortgages which are a disadvantage and more complex.

    But, that if a 5 and over property makes good money, good cashflow, it can sell for more because prices are more based on ROI prospects than comparable sales..

    I'm wondering what if, you buy a 4 plex that makes good cashflow, could you easily add a 5th apartment to bump it into a bracket where it would sell for considerably more if the numbers were good?

  • Rental Property Investor · DFW, TX · Member since 2013 · 953 posts · 910 votes
    8y

    @Ed L. Yes you could do that if zoning allow and it has a good enough ROI to make it worth adding the extra unit. Just be aware that once it is 5 units, "normal people" will not be able to buy it because they won't be able to get a traditional mortgage that works for 1-4 family buildings. Do some research and you may realize that the comps that appraisers use value it higher than what an appraisal using the income method would.

  • Rental Property Investor · Concord, CA · Member since 2016 · 499 posts · 219 votes
    8y
    Michael Swan I know you are trying to stir up discussion but remember you were only able to buy multi family apartment complexes because your condos and other single family investment in San Diego appreciated a lot. Also apartment complex also loses value when rent goes down so when economy is tanking, the rent does comes down and hence the NOI and the value of your apartment building.
  • Hadar OrkibiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · USA / NZ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 812 votes
    8y

    @Michael Swan to be precise i would say that 2-4 units are MFR but are not Commercial type.

    As you mentioned there are different appraisal approach to each type.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    8y

    The way it works in my area is if a multi unit building can not be sold as legally separate deeded properties it is considered a multi. Investors will value them based on income however banks do not view under 4/5 as commercial. Multifamily and commercial are different animals. You can have a multifamily residential and a multifamily commercial. They are definatly different.

    Our lenders want to see leases, income statements, tax returns etc. on multifamily residential investment properties however our investing and banking system is considerably more stringent than in the US.

    A duplex with separate legal deeds is not a multi as it can and usually is sold as attached SFHs.

    Duplexes, Triplexes, and Quads are not commercial properties. 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    Hi all,

    I think we are all here are correct. @Mike Dymski  I agree that this forum post should be different.  Multifamily should not be in the same forum category as Apartments.  They are 2 different animals altogether.  @Avi Garg what was your point.  I post on Multifamily Apartment complexes to discuss my perspective on 5 units or more commercial advantages etc...  I notice a discrepancy here and @Mike Dymski said it much more succinctly than I posted here.  I love how as you said Avi I am trying to stir up discussion and I really appreciate how @Ed L. and Hadar have added to the discussion. I also am impressed by Lennon, Jason, and Peter have clarified.  Thanks guys!!

    Swanny

  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Perhaps we need a forum for 2-4 unit multi family?
  • Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2016 · 146 posts · 108 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Michael Swan:

    Hi this is Swanny,

    Single family, on the other hand,  4 units or less is much less complicated, but you are at the TOTAL mercy of comps.  That is great when 4 units or less are rising across America like they are now.  However, when prices plummet, you are also at the mercy of comps too.  It is a double edged sword with single family.

    I agree there is a difference between commercial properties that require commercial loans and small multifamily that can still get a conventional mortgage. I would just like to clarify that when prices start to plummet the cap rates on apartment complexes will likely go up, so apartment complexes are also at the mercy of comps, just a different type of comp, a comp of the cap rates. 

    There is more control over value with a commercial property, but still the market place has a roll in deciding what the cap rates are and therefore what the value of the property is. 

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Ed L.:

    So what I understand is that anything under 4 is more like a regular home mortgage and 5 and over get into commercial/business type mortgages which are a disadvantage and more complex.

    But, that if a 5 and over property makes good money, good cashflow, it can sell for more because prices are more based on ROI prospects than comparable sales..

    I'm wondering what if, you buy a 4 plex that makes good cashflow, could you easily add a 5th apartment to bump it into a bracket where it would sell for considerably more if the numbers were good?

    I'm wondering the opposite: "what if, you buy a 6 plex that makes good cashflow, could you easily convert it to a 4 plex to bump it into a bracket where it would sell for considerably more if the numbers were good?"  Both questions could be looked at on a case by case basis...

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    Hi @David Grabiner,

    In the last housing crash, people lost their homes and rents went up.  People lost their homes and had to move somewhere.  Downsizing to an apartment was the logical choice.  In my area of the country, rents just kept going up.

    In the area of the country I am currently buying Multifamily rents are going up substantially.  However, I am purchasing $8,000 under market per unit ($33,825) from burnt out landlords David Lindahl style.  

    Nothing is fool proof.  I am just buying low and raising rents anywhere from $100-$250.00 a month from the low rents these burnt out landlords were charging. Most of these units rented for about $600.00 a unit when I purchased and am now raising to between $700-$850 depending on the unit size.  I am starting to control market rents in a 6 block to 1 mile radius.  If the rents depress in the next 5 years to where I first bought them, substantially below market rents, the great thing about the commercial loans I am using is that they are on 20 year amortization schedule and a few of these loans will be reduced substantially in a 5 year period.  The highest I have paid is 4.6% fixed and the lowest is 4.1% fixed.  In the last 7 months these fixed products have risen to 5.6% which is my rate on the 34 unit I will close on end of May.

    Plus, if I choose to do so, I can pay down the loan balance an additional 15% per year with no penalty, creating more safety. I also have a 5 year option at the end of my first 5 years at a fixed rate too.  Most likely that may be 2% higher.

    So far a few of these apartment complexes we have substantially increased the NOI in less than a 2 year period of ownership. We still have a year or two more of repositioning and then we will Refinance, 1031 exchange, or straight sell. Again, if people start losing their houses again, they need to live somewhere. How about an affordable 1br or 2br apartment in a solid blue collar neighborhood?

    Swanny

  • Rental Property Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 94 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Anthony Gayden:

    Perhaps we need a forum for 2-4 unit multi family?

    No way!!!! I like to read about Multis and Apartments in the same forum, there is already too many forums to decipher through no need to make it more confusing than it already is. Multi means more than one, last time I checked the English language more than one means two or more hence a Duplex IS a Multi-family property. 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    I understand @Rick M.,

    I just get a lot of people reaching out to me asking advice and talk to me about NOI, Cap rates etc... and they think it is like commercial Multifamily and I explain it time and time again. They are residential for loans, refinancing and general valuation etc... I talk to at least 5 to 10 BP members a week asking me for advice and this topic or misunderstanding comes up over and over again. I believe it is due to this forum of Multifamily and Apartments being lumped together. I look to talk to people about commercial Apartments and they are thinking residential duplexes, triplexes and quads. Those two producers are soooooooo different. You don't know how different until you own an apartment complex.

    Owning single family residential (1-4 units) was pretty intuitive for me.  Apartments was an entirely different animal altogether.  The potential is amazing if you do this right.  The downside is also just as dramatic if you don't do it right.  Apartment complex business model of repositioning a value play takes a really strong team in place that has been there and done that, so you don't step on landmines.  They are everywhere and tough to detect if you are a newbie.

    Swanny

  • Rental Property Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 94 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Michael Swan:

    I understand @Rick M.,

    I just get a lot of people reaching out to me asking advice and talk to me about NOI, Cap rates etc... and they think it is like commercial Multifamily and I explain it time and time again. They are residential for loans, refinancing and general valuation etc... I talk to at least 5 to 10 BP members a week asking me for advice and this topic or misunderstanding comes up over and over again. I believe it is due to this forum of Multifamily and Apartments being lumped together. I look to talk to people about commercial Apartments and they are thinking residential duplexes, triplexes and quads. Those two producers are soooooooo different. You don't know how different until you own an apartment complex.

    Owning single family residential (1-4 units) was pretty intuitive for me.  Apartments was an entirely different animal altogether.  The potential is amazing if you do this right.  The downside is also just as dramatic if you don't do it right.  Apartment complex business model of repositioning a value play takes a really strong team in place that has been there and done that, so you don't step on landmines.  They are everywhere and tough to detect if you are a newbie.

    Swanny

    Ok Fair enough 2-4 units isn’t commercial loan worthy, I will agree with that. I currently own a quad and would love to get into more units (5+) but finding that in New Hampshire is damn near impossible, or maybe just where I have been looking/want to own property. I’d love to know what you do different with 5+ units opposed to owning 2-4 also how to avoid the landmines.

  • Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2016 · 146 posts · 108 votes
    8y

    @Michael Swan

    Congrats. It seems like you are doing great and have a wonderful position in your market. I don't disagree with what you said but I think you missed my point. I am not saying that you will be in trouble if there is a price correction and I didn't say rents will go down. What I said is that Cap rates will go up so the values of commercial properties will fall if there is a market correction. Now obviously I'm not trying to teach you anything, you seem to know exactly what you are doing and will be well positioned to weather any storm that is coming. I am more saying this as a warning to newbies who might misconstrue what you are saying to mean that commercial property will never drop in value because it is based on the NOI.

    Just out of curiosity what are cap rates in your area right now and what where they in 2008?

  • Country Club Hills, IL · Member since 2018 · 51 posts · 45 votes
    8y

    @Rick M. they may be hard to find in NH but they're here in Chicago as far as the eye can see

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Rick M.:
    Originally posted by @Anthony Gayden:

    No way!!!! I like to read about Multis and Apartments in the same forum, there is already too many forums to decipher through no need to make it more confusing than it already is. Multi means more than one, last time I checked the English language more than one means two or more hence a Duplex IS a Multi-family property. 

    It's problematic for the commercial investors to have most of the posts in the commercial forum to be about 1-4 residential properties.  Instead, other sites are popping up that cater more to commercial investors.

    "The multi-family investing forum is for the discussion of commercial multi-family and apartment investing. No matter what your questions are, if they concern properties with 5 or more units, this is the place to ask them."

    It's not a huge deal but most are not aware or just ignore the forum definition.

  • Investor · Campton, NH · Member since 2010 · 286 posts · 144 votes
    8y

    @Rick M. - Not sure which towns you're looking in around Rye, but surely you'd be best trying to get some larger multi's more up toward Rochester and Dover, which are in the path of progress from the seacoast, full of renters who can't afford to be in Portsmouth etc and you're more likely to get a building at a price that makes sense cash flow-wise?! 

  • Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Suggestion for a new title to this thread:  Commercial MF vs Residential MF, Know the difference.

    Because the initial statement you make is incorrect, even though your explaination goes into what you are really trying to convey.  For the record, 2-4 units ARE multi-family because there is more than 1 unit.  However, the point, I think you are trying to make, is that the processes involved in Commercial MF is very different than residiential (2-4) MF.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    Hi @David Grabiner,

    I sold and 1031 exchanged all my single family where I live in San Diego for Apartment complexes in NE Ohio.  The Cap rates in the Blue collar solid C class communities I invest in have Cap Rates of about 9.  The market rents for a 2br same size I own are about $720.00 for a 2br and $620.00 for a 1br apartment. At purchase, I am purchasing them at approximately $600.00 for a 2br and $525.00 for a 1br.  I own 82 front doors in a 6 block to 1 mile radius.  One particular 12 unit, has much larger townhouse layouts that I have been pushing rents to $800-$850 a month.  I purchased those also with rents about $600-$625 about 18 months ago.   I am following David Lindahl's Multifamily Millions proven strategy of repositioning a value play.

    Swanny

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    Hi @Rick M.,

    First read David Lindahl's Multifamily Millions right away.  I am living pages 47-130 everyday in the hard cover.  Read it and study it well.  Just realize if you follow it really closely and know the right people, getting in a solid value deal, with the right team, the potential is amazing!! If you don't follow it really well and don't have a proven team, the landmines will get you!! It is treacherous out there for a newbie with limited connections, education, and a proven team.  My first two apartment complexes went bad real fast.  I just sold those two dogs this past December and learned the hard way!!  I lost a lot of money learning the hard way!!

    The rest of my 8 apartment complexes and 4 single family out there are doing really well!!  122 front doors and counting.

    Onward and upward!!

    Swanny

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    Hi @Cara Lonsdale,

    You are correct.  If you are looking for 4 units or less residential, that is not anywhere close in all aspects to 5 units or more Apartment complexes, which are considered commercial is the distinction that needs to be made.  I love talking on the phone, texting and communicating on BP.  However,  I explain this to a lot of people and they do not know the difference.  This forum title is the avenue that they get the idea they are the same I believe.

    Swanny

  • Irvine, CA · Member since 2016 · 545 posts · 614 votes
    8y
    I definitely agree with @Michael Swan and @Mike Dymski because on a daily bases I see BP post asking questions about 2-4 unit properties in the Commercial Multifamily and Apartment forum. I personally think there should be separate forums, especially for the newbies who keep combining concepts and information of the 2-4 unit properties and the Commercial Multifamily properties when they're clearly only talking about residential 2-4 unit multifamily
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