Belleville, NJ · Member since 2016 · 46 posts · 19 votes
Hello fellow investors,
I am considering buying a large multifamily which has knob & tube wiring throughout and trying to figure out how much it would cost to update it. If you have ANY experience with this, please share. Especially if you have info on how much it costed you and the specifics of your job, that would be very helpful in estimating my cost and whether this property is a good investment or a bad one. Here are the details: A 2-unit multifamily (2500+ squarefoot) located in central Connecticut.
Lender · Winlock, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
You really need to talk with your insurance agent. you wouldnt want to think you have coverage only to find out at claim time that maybe you don't? No insutance companies that I'm aware of will insure a structure with knob and tube. Even if you get that policy in the beginning, they can still deny the claim. This is a very serious issue, all knob and tube must be eliminated to get the coverage your going to want. This can be very costly to open up all the walls and essentially rewire the hole house including the panel. I have the unique experience of being an 11 year vet. of the electrical industry and an insurance agent for years as well.
For an agent with experience with multi families this should be an easy question for them to get an estimate for. Or they may even know from past experience. This a common problem for older multi family houses in CT.
I'm finishing up a rehab in New Britain that had some knob tube. The knob and tube was pretty much limited to the basement and there were breakers. The wires were cut to the panels, and to get everything up and running, cost about $3100. This included removing the knob tube, and changing out to gfci in kitchens and bathrooms. That was my experience, but I would definitely get some quotes, there can be a lot of variables. Hope this helps.
Belleville, NJ · Member since 2016 · 46 posts · 19 votes
10y
Hi @Rick Santos thanks for sharing your experience. $3100 seems very manageable, HOWEVER, for my MF, it is likely throughout the home and not restricted to basement. So I might be looking at a much larger number! :-/ Were the wires in your basement open and easily accessible? If it was, I am sure that helped lower the labor costs. Would you be willing to share the name of the electrician who did your work so that I can call him and get an estimate too? Thanks!
@Michael Noto -- Thanks for the reply. I have asked my agent who gave me a rough estimate. However, he has not had to do it before, and me and him together are trying to figure out better, more precise estimates.
Real Estate Broker · Fairfield, CT · Member since 2015 · 312 posts · 231 votes
10y
I had a 1940s home with knob & tube, but it also had the old unshielded braided lines throughout the house. Is that more what you're referring to? The Knob and Tube is a type of panel - and you often can have such a panel but still have the shielded wire (bx). I have replaced many knob and tube panels and spent 2-3k on that. The house that I had to replace all electrical wiring from the braided lines to bx, that bill was about 18k. It was a 3400 square foot house though, so not a small job, and that included the panel and service upgrade. So the wiring was probably 13-15 of that?
Investor · New Britain, CT · Member since 2014 · 40 posts · 12 votes
10y
@Rick Santos hey Rick I had to replace knob and tube in basement last year for insurance purposes so I had the exact same situation as you. It cost me $650 from a licensed electrician. And he did a good job.
Real Estate Broker · Windsor, CT · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 268 votes
10y
Hi @Login George I have dealt with Knob and tube wiring. Are you financing this property? you would have to go 203k if you are or some kind of rehabbing loan. I would also suggest getting a a few electricians to give you a quote on the scope of work that needs to be done at this property. Best of Luck!
Rental Property Investor · Chappaqua, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 947 votes
10y
Login George good luck with the new house. I did all new electric in a small SFR 1600sf last year with Knob and tube. The new code, GFI breakers and switching electricians midstream hit me hard....11,000. Not sure how much less it would have been had I used one electrician.
In NYC I juts rewired a 650sf 2 bedroom for 5500. That was a mixture of Knob and tube, BX and Romex (fire just waiting to happen)
I did the same electric work on a bigger house with K&T in 09 and it was 6k
Belleville, NJ · Member since 2016 · 46 posts · 19 votes
10y
Hi @Travis Lloyd. Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have old unshielded lines going throughout the house so I will likely have to replace the lines through out the home. So perhaps my cost estimate would be similar to your 18k cost. The panels at this house look newer so I think they upgraded the panel without changing the lines.
@Luis Melendez so you did not have to change the lines throughout the home? And was able to just do the panel in the basement?
@Melissa Gittens thanks for your input. Yes, I will be financing this property, but I was thinking of going conventional and paying out of pocket for the upgrade. Do you know if knob and tube wiring would be a stick in the mud for financing? I just spoke to an insurance broker who said that most insurance companies would deny me if I don't update. If you have the contact info for the electrician who did your work, sharing that would be much appreciated! :-)
@John Hickey John, so based on your experience of $11,000 for the 1600sqft home, perhaps mine (due to the much larger square footage) may be closer 18k :-O Despite the cost, upgrading it would make me feel better and safe when I sleep!
Investor · New Britain, CT · Member since 2014 · 40 posts · 12 votes
10y
Right I didn't have to change the lines through the home only the panel in basement. What's your reason for updating though? Is it peace of mind or for insurance reasons?
Real Estate Broker · Windsor, CT · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 268 votes
10y
@Login George that is true. The house I was looking at in East Hartford had Knob and tube and the insurance company didn't want to insure the home with out upgrades being made. I was going to do a 203K loan for the repairs that needed to be done. I ended up walking away from the deal because it didn't appraise appropriately and the seller didn't want to go down in price.
Electrical Contractor · Walden, NY · Member since 2015 · 46 posts · 6 votes
10y
@Travis Lloyd knob and tube is the style of wiring. The panel is not know and tube. I am a licensed electrical contractor and it really depends on the house and the situation. If you have a lot of accessibility than the price goes down. If you don't then you may get involved in cutting open walls. It all really depends on how much you want to replace to. There is to many variables to give a rough estimate without someone actually looking at it. I just did a 2nd floor of a rental for a customer and snaked in 11 new outlets to remove the old bx and that job was 1200.00
@Travis Lloyd knob and tube is the style of wiring. The panel is not know and tube. I am a licensed electrical contractor and it really depends on the house and the situation. If you have a lot of accessibility than the price goes down. If you don't then you may get involved in cutting open walls. It all really depends on how much you want to replace to. There is to many variables to give a rough estimate without someone actually looking at it. I just did a 2nd floor of a rental for a customer and snaked in 11 new outlets to remove the old bx and that job was 1200.00
Robert glad you pointed out that it's not the panel. I spent some time today talking someone through what it is on a commercial job. If your in the basement, crawl space or attic you should be able to see it. The knobs look like little porcelain yoyo's with no slot and tubes are about the size of a bic pen, only porcelain which the wire goes through. One protects the wire going through the joist, the other provides an insulated turn of generally 90 degrees. The bad news many times the tubes are not in the joist anymore and are hanging on the wire between the joist. Then you bring in Robert to replace it. Grin.
Belleville, NJ · Member since 2016 · 46 posts · 19 votes
10y
@Melissa Gittens I see. Yeah, I might have to do 203k to do the updates, but really it all depends on whether the seller is able to adjust the price given the updates needed. I hope the seller will be willing to negotiate, in which case, I would be willing to proceed with the purchase.
@Robert Gailie thank you for your expert opinion. Is it an option to just replace part of it and not all of it?? I would have thought that I should change the entire home, since updating just parts of the home won't fully eliminate the fire hazard and the insurance company concerns. I am pretty sure that in the case of my home, the walls would need to be cut to access wiring throughout the home.
@William Morrison thanks for the input. I was able to look at pics and identify exactly what the components are of this type of wiring.
Investor · Silver Spring, MD · Member since 2014 · 178 posts · 60 votes
10y
@Login George you need someone just like Robert to give you a quote, get a couple. They can tell you if they can pull wire and with about how much damage to the walls. Sometimes even the wire can be the pull wire. They can do a lot with fish tape and over sized boxes. The exposed wire is easy for them to estimate. I'm sure Robert can tell you for sure, but you maybe able to leave some old wire behind he wall. You do not want any exposed in the attic, basement or crawl space, any place someone might connect latter. Are you going to pull wire for cable at the same time?
Belleville, NJ · Member since 2016 · 46 posts · 19 votes
10y
@William Morrison yes, it definitely seems like I need electricians to actually walk through the home and give me their opinions and estimates. Some of the walls also have wall paper, which I assume would increase the costs (because I might have to rip the wall paper off the entire walls and just have them painted instead).
I am not sure what you mean by "pull wire for cable". I assume you are not talking about cable TV. Can you please elaborate...I am not familiar with wiring very much.
@William Morrison yes, it definitely seems like I need electricians to actually walk through the home and give me their opinions and estimates. Some of the walls also have wall paper, which I assume would increase the costs (because I might have to rip the wall paper off the entire walls and just have them painted instead).
I am not sure what you mean by "pull wire for cable". I assume you are not talking about cable TV. Can you please elaborate...I am not familiar with wiring very much.
Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it!
Login, Let me see if this old guy can do a word picture. Grin. Think of an attic you've been in. If you pull the insulation back you can see the ceiling and in places you can see the top plate of a wall below. The top plate is a 2x4 that the wall studs nail to. If you were to drill a hole in the plate from the attic you would have a place for the new wire and yes cable TV wire to enter. Then 14 inches or so off the floor below you would cut a square for the box for the electric and the cable. Now think of a long coat hanger, it not but a fish tape is a lot like it, only longer. You push or pull the new wire and cable TV wire with it into the box without cutting the wall. If you have to make a small cut at the ceiling you can sometimes cover it with new molding without tearing the whole wall up as well. Surface mounted systems are around but I don't think I would ever use it in a residence. Guys like Robert can be even more creative with how they pull wire without tearing up a wall. Good Luck. Hope this helped.
Ah i see. There is so much to electrical wiring that I do not know. I am sure that by the end of this process, I will know more than what I ever thought possible! I appreciate your help. I will post again once I get through this whole process so that those of you that shared thoughts can get an update. The whole deal rests on successful resolution of the wiring issue -- so it can either make it or break it. Talk soon.
Lender · Winlock, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
You really need to talk with your insurance agent. you wouldnt want to think you have coverage only to find out at claim time that maybe you don't? No insutance companies that I'm aware of will insure a structure with knob and tube. Even if you get that policy in the beginning, they can still deny the claim. This is a very serious issue, all knob and tube must be eliminated to get the coverage your going to want. This can be very costly to open up all the walls and essentially rewire the hole house including the panel. I have the unique experience of being an 11 year vet. of the electrical industry and an insurance agent for years as well.