I know that BiggerPockets looks down on guru education programs and seminars that cost thousands of dollars to teach people what they can learn for free on this website. However, I didn't find BiggerPockets until after I was half way through the expensive one-year education and coaching program. One thing my coach told me over and over again was to find investors to partner up with because it didn't matter how much money I personally had to invest, I would eventually run out if I only used my own money. So, over the past few months to a year, I have reached out to several people who are newbies to real estate investing who are looking for a mentor to teach them how to flip houses for profit. I explain to them that I can show them from start to finish a system to learn how to find, fund, rehab, and sell houses for a profit in Arizona. I show them how they will gain experience, credibility, and earn money on the money they invest. But when I tell them that the profit they would make would be 10% APR on their money while it is invested, they become disinterested because they were hoping to make more on their deal. When I see a newbie who wants to partner up and learn how to flip a house for profit and expects to make more on a first deal I think to myself, " Let me get this straight, I spent 75k on a real estate education program which I will never get back and which gave me education but didn't supply me with experience or credibility (having done a profitable deal) and I am offering this to you, plus you get your money back, and you are unsatisfied because it isn't as much as you wanted it to be?" Hummm... I don't know of any education program, college, or institution, that you pay to go to that will teach you a skill to earn lots of money that will then give you your money back plus interest at the end of it. Is there something wrong with my thinking, that someone would be glad to find a mentor to hold their hand through the whole process, and show them a detailed system of how to make money flipping a house, where they would gain experience, credibility, and money and that they should be pleased with that? Or is it that many newbies read posts on success stories of first flips where people made 30 or 40 grand on their first flip and they believe that they should be able to do that also without doing it all on their own? Is it just me, or does it seem some newbies feel entitlement towards earning half of the profits when they come in with a quarter or less of the money for the deal and have no experience? I would appreciate any thoughts. And don't be shy to correct my thinking.

@Shiloh Lundahl No offense Shiloh, but it sounds like you were the sucker that paid $75k on REI education (when you could've gotten it for free on BP or WORKING for a mentor) and need to persuade inexperienced newbies to partner with you to be successful! They're not being "Entitled", they're being wise! I wouldn't fall for your spiel either! ;) What you may want to consider doing is just finding good deals and persuading SEASONED investors to partner with you. If you have the experience and credibility, they will partner with you...simple! Good luck warrior...anytime you can learn something new you're on the right track! ;)

As a newbie, exactly that. As well as not trusting that you're honest. People claim they're making boatloads of money and have retired but keep investing because they like it. Then they claim they're all about giving back to the community and helping others out. Then they ask you for money to learn more. Screw that. As a programmer, we write a lot of software that is given away for free to improve everyone and everything. There is likely more freely developed software powering this website than paid software and that's excluding the free browser you're using to view it. If it was true that you have enough money and were sincere in giving back to the community, then you'd write up your education plan or make a video of it once, perhaps have the first round of people pay for it to cover the cost of creating it, then you would release the entire thing publicly for free. But most people don't do that, so we have to wonder if you're really earning the money you say you are or are you just trying to take money from us because you're system isn't that good. If you have enough money, why are you asking for more? If you want to help people out out of the goodness of your heart, why are you asking to be paid? If we aren't to believe the stores of 40K easy flips, why should we believe the stories of an educational program? I'm seeing people saying one thing then asking for something else, so of course I'm not going to give them my time and money. You want to prove that your educational system is worth it? Put any payments into an escow account and offer a full refund if they don't earn equal to or more than the advertised amount in a specific amount of time. Front all the money for their first project, because you know it's going to make money so why wouldn't you want to increase your income. Your system works doesn't it?

@Shiloh Lundahl What program runs $75,000 so we can avoid it?

Thanks so much for your feedback @Bevla Reeves. I absolutely agree, there is a ton of information that I could have learned had I have known about BiggerPockets before I paid for the year-long real estate training. Actually, it was through the program that I was introduced to BiggerPockets by another program participant. And, although I think it is true that a lot of people who spend tens of thousands of dollars on a real estate education program could have learned the information for a lot less elsewhere, I did get a ton out of the training. Mostly through Contacts and connecting with really successful investors. I wish that I had known about Marty Boardman or others that could have mentored me in Arizona before I did the training, but I didn't. The year before the training I made 17k on 3 flips. The year of the training I made 95k on 6 flips and one seller finance deal and acquired 3 duplexes and 1 SFR in Indianapolis and I learned how to build a system. So, for me the training was worth it, but for others it may not be. With our system and our resources we can handle up to 6 flips at a time. Partnering with others could help us increase that to 8. I don't really need to partner with others but I am a teacher at heart and I really enjoy helping others become successful and reaching their goals (thus my daytime career as a child and family therapist). So that is why I want to work with newbies and give them something that I wish that I had had when I began. I just don't like it when people just expect to get something for nothing. That is what this post is about.

Thank you @Douglas Krofcheck for your response. I totally agree with you that it is hard to trust people, especially if you have been taken advantage of in the past or have experienced a trauma around people not being honest. I think that I may not have been very clear in my earlier post and you may think that I am selling an educational program. Let me try to be more clear about what I mean by partnering up with newbies looking to invest. It starts with finding a property that has at least 20k of profit in the deal when all is said and done. Then I secure a hard money lender on the deal and I get a bid for the repairs from one of our contractors that we work with. Then I ask if anyone wants to partner up on the deal by putting in 10% of the down to the title company and paying the rehab costs directly to the contractor (half upfront and half at the end). The investor gets a deed of trust on the property and a promissory note at 10% APR while their money is invested. The deal usually lasts 3-6 months and then the investor gets their money back with the interest upon close from the title company at the sale of the property. When the investor partners with us we show them how to flip the property from start to finish. How we found the property, how we funded the property, how we rehabbed and sold the property. They get to meet everyone we work with from our contractors to our insurance company, our pool man to our landscapers. Why we chose the particular design style, the staging company we use, etc. The investor gets an educational experience by seeing everything that went into the project and they gain a ton of contacts that they can use on their projects and they can duplicate the system that they just saw. Plus they gain credibility by having done a successful deal. They can present the before and after pictures to show others (like hard money lenders or banks or private investors) a deal that they have done to help them access capital for their projects. Additionally, they get their money back and the interest accrued at the end. The benefit that I get out of doing this is that I have less money into the deals which allows us to do more deals at the same time. The benefit that the newbie investor gets out of this as I mentioned before is experience, credibility, and money (and they get to hang out with our team members who are pretty cool). We only plan on partnering up with the new investor through a deal or two until they feel comfortable and are ready to do it themselves. I hope this clears up any misperceptions of what we are doing and why we are doing it. Again, thank you for your comments and I wish you well as you begin your real estate investing journey.

@Shiloh Lundahl "Or is it that many newbies read posts on success stories of first flips where people made 30 or 40 grand on their first flip and they believe that they should be able to do that also without doing it all on their own?" Bingo. Most gurus and other investors tell newly minted investors to just "jump in with both feet" as if this is just a pool party. Therefore, most new investors naturally think, well, how hard can it be. Many find out just how hard it is once they lose what little money they have. Also, I've literally seen wannabe gurus advertising their mentoring to new investors when the "mentor" has only done one or two deals and knows nothing about the intricacies of this business. When there are no legal standards, anyone can be a guru...and they often try to pass themselves off as such. Everyone and their half brother is trying to sell to the newbie investor...newbie's are simply being over-sold. Heck, I've seen folks advertising real estate coaching on Fivver for $5.00! It's only natural that people who have no business experience, knowledge or capacity to understand what it takes to succeed in any entrepreneurial endeavor, and are not really following a long-time passion of real estate investing, will believe they can do this easily and quickly without any assistance. And since so many coaches are really not coaches, but are instead marketers, I can't really blame the newbie...they simply don't know what they don't know. The proof is always in the pudding...and now days proof of one's success is never asked for or offered, hence the reason newbies fail within 90 days and move on to the next distraction (business endeavor) in their life.

Thanks @Alex Cordero. With an expectation that you won't make a lot on your first deal but that you can learn a lot, I think better rehabbers will be more willing to teach you and you will learn a ton. I set up a lunch appointment with @Marty Boardman in Arizona who did the first podcast. He was gracious enough to be willing to meet with me. Anyway, he said if someone wants to do a deal with him then they need to bring him a deal or money for a deal. That made sense to me. He already has a system that works for him and he doesn't need my help to be successful. But if I wanted to learn then I would have to bring something to the table. Truthfully it was really helpful sitting down with him and he was complementing to what we are doing in real estate. After meeting with him I tightened up our system and it has been a lot better since. So thanks Marty. Again, a great example of what you can learn from an experienced flipper.

Account Closed "It's not personal. It's just business." I love that part of the movie You Got Mail. I appreciate the feedback. I would say that I'm not so much offended as I am frustrated - probably from my unmet expectations. Because I wish I had had someone to hold my hand along the way when I started and offer to me what I am offering to others, I expect that others would be excited and grateful for the opportunity. So in a way I am doing the same thing. I am expecting something and getting somewhat frustrated with the results just like people who expect something for nothing (or very little) get frustrated when they don't get what they want. Thanks for your insight. And, by the way, if I have come across as condescending to anyone, I would like to sincerely apologize.

Newbies: Eager to learn or Entitled?

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

@Sam White I won't argue with you that I just "may not be a good salesman."

I think part of my problem is I don't have the time or take the time to get to know potential investors for a long time before I let them know what I am doing in real estate. After hearing about what they are doing in real estate and letting them know what I am doing, I think that I may just be moving too fast by letting them know that I am looking for possible money partners on deals. Maybe I just need to slow it down more. Thanks for the feedback.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

1 Reply

Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

@Manuel Gerakios Marty Boardman @Marty Boardman is a successful real estate investor in Arizona. He did the first podcast that is available on BiggerPockets. He was gracious enough to meet me one afternoon last year for lunch and shared about his story and what he is doing now in real estate. He was very friendly and encouraging. He would be someone great to learn from. He told me that he is easier to contact through his website than through BiggerPockets if you are interested.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

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Christine Mwai

Investor · Alabaster, AL · Member since 2016 · 280 posts · 88 votes

9y

Kindly tell us all in detai, not vague references or appeals to people's emotions about "newbies and entitelment", what you paid 75k for...

Nothing is free, true!, but it does seem that you were taken for a ridiculous 75k ride.. Explain the justification for that in details please. No, offense, but I self-taught, it IS a business for those with a passion for it. You don't need to pay 75k to learn REI... who took you for that ride??..:)75 k?? LOL!!

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Donnell Jackson

San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 34 posts · 12 votes

9y

Shiloh Lundahl while I was reading this I couldn't believe that anyone would ever turn down a mentor like that. If I had that offer on the table I would take it in a heartbeat. To be honest all of the skills required to be good at this business can only be gained by going through with deals so I can't even relate to people who wouldn't jump at the first chance to get experience. I would literally work for free if I could shadow someone on deals just to learn. I think most newbies just want something in exchange for nothing.

3 Reply

Rolanda Eldridge

Investor/Realtor · Hoover, AL · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 459 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl...Finding the right partner is key. But you should keep looking for money sources, before you need them. You can't grow without some $$...GL

0 Reply

Ian WalshBusiness Member

Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

9y

I wouldn't get too hung up on it. Everyone has a different mentality.

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RaeAnna Ebel

Investor · Madison, WI · Member since 2017 · 9 posts · 6 votes

9y

What's wrong with being entitled? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion as shown by this post, so what's different in expressing their opinion regarding how much they should make in a first deal? Sure, a newbie may not have much real estate experience but what else do they bring to the table? We are missing an entire side of this story so honestly, it's a little hard to judge whether that's an unfair ask or not.

I strongly believe that you should always be your number one advocate because no one else is going to do it for you.

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Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

@Dan Mahoney Thanks for your input. I don't think that I am at a place where I would charge a consulting fee. There are a lot of people with more knowledge and experience on this site than me. I just like doing deals and want to expand.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

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Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

@Brad O'Neill I agree, I think that there has been things said on this tread that are laughable.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

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Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

Thank you @Adam VanOverbeke for your comment.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

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Shiloh LundahlPro Member

OP

Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

9y

@Don Ashby Thanks for reading through the thread thoroughly. Yes, that is correct, the investor receives a promissory note at 10% APR, learns the system, meets my contacts, gains experience, and yes, hopefully gains a new friend too. They also get a deed of trust on the property.

If the deal ends up taking a loss, then the investor still gets their principle and interest. If the deal doesn't work out as planned that would be our mistake, not the investors. So the investors always get paid out first before we take any profits - even if I have to bring money to the closing table at the sale.

This situation hasn't happened to us but I do know of investors who take profits/commissions first even if the person who invested with them has a loss on their money. I don't think that's right.

Thanks for the thoughtful question. I wonder why no one asked it before now.

480-206-1209 Podcast Guest on Show #287

2 Reply

Anthony GaydenPro Member

Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

9y

Originally posted by @William Brown:

"I prefer to not work with others."

That scares me. That tells me, any potential lenders or investors, and everyone that you are high-risk. Real estate is a people business. Successful investors have created their teams, because they understand that there are people out there who can do things better and cheaper than they can with a consistent result. If you choose not to work with anyone, and try to hold your entire business up yourself, you will find you hit a limit really quickly when everything starts crashing down on you during an expansion phase.

my .02

Everything crashing down on me.......lol

My entire business is held up by just me and I prefer it that way. I do not believe anyone should be judging a successful investment strategy. Not all of us want to own hundreds or thousands of properties and work full-time in real estate.

Podcast Guest on Show #21

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Jonathan Boyd

Flipper/Rehabber · Springdale, AR · Member since 2016 · 79 posts · 41 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl Great post! I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'd jump at the opportunity you described! To learn and gain experience WHILE making some money too? I'm currently meeting with local real estate investors in my area hoping to just shadow and clean their shop or something to catch any crumbs falling from the table of knowledge they possess. You're offering a great resource- it's a shame it's being shunned.

2 Reply

Jason Richey

Oregon, OH · Member since 2016 · 23 posts · 12 votes

9y

Just my thoughts on the subject, but it sounds like you're more upset that you paid top dollar for what is essentially a trade-school education and are projecting that frustration. Maybe I'm way off base, but you sound exactly like a guy I know that is perpetually friendzoned by women even though he has a great career and by all objective marks should be great boyfriend material. Just reading your post here you already rubbed the wrong way because it feels like you are coming from a place of entitlement with the presumption that your big expensive education is worth something, and I'm not saying it's not, but flaunting it around while simultaneously admitting you can get the same education for free right here on BP just didn't feel right. Like I say to my buddy that blames women for not liking him, maybe the problem isn't them...

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Joe SplitrockPro Member

Moderator

Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl I think the point some are trying to make about the $75K worth of guru education is that a better path would be to invest the $75K in your business. Real estate is a very capital intense business. That $75K could have been a down payment on a $375K multifamily or could have funded a cash purchase on a flip. It could have been spent on mailers to find off market homes. Instead you sold a rental property to finance the training, so you gave up monthly cash flow plus you paid capital gains tax on your sale.

These training programs are how the guru makes their money. I am sure some are better than others, but ultimately if they could make more money in real estate, they wouldn't spend their time teaching it.

Learning is no substitute for doing. People should find a mentor and add value, either through money, deals or time.

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Adam N.

Investor · OH · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 4 votes

9y

I think I would take the 75k buy a house and learn by doing with the remainder. Who in their right mind would pay anyone that kind of money to learn anything? My goodness you could attend a great college for that sum too!

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Sean Phillips

New to Real Estate · Falls Church, VA · Member since 2016 · 51 posts · 23 votes

9y

@Jason Richey yeah you are way off base. There is NO projected frustration at the education @Shiloh Lundahl paid for. As a parent I hear what my kids and others around them say. Getting something for nothing is "Entitlement". From what I have read Shiloh is asking a question about newbie investors based on what he is offering. The answer to your question Shiloh is yes. The newer generations have embraced the word "Deserve". The majority of them do not have a solid work ethic. When I am not working REI I work in IT. I see the younger generation only wanting the answers and not going thru the process or earning the information. Many newbies are looking to get a deal as that is what @Brandon Turner talks about in the webinars but they think it is easy and that it will take no time at all and that the money will just fall into their laps. You only have to look at those joining the site then going dark. I want this and that but when action is required or they don't see success at the speed of emails and snapchats then they go to something else. @Shiloh Lundahl you are looking for them to commit and if they cant see the benefit of education for the price you mentioned it is not your issue. You mentioned that you have a counseling background so what is the psychology here? And like others have mentioned move on. I am sure others will take the opportunity and will thank you for it.

2 Reply

Bevla Reeves

Real Estate Agent · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2011 · 471 posts · 296 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl ...didn't feel any condescension with your last comment at all! ;)

...I worked my *** off for my mentors so the exchange was fair!

...with the successes you've had you shouldn't have trouble raising capital from seasoned investors. I think trying to get it from newbies is going to waste your time.

When you have an awesome deal post it on BP, there're lots of PLMs on the site.

I wish you continued success and look forward to reading more posts from your adventures! ;)

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Jason Richey

Oregon, OH · Member since 2016 · 23 posts · 12 votes

9y

I was speaking rhetorically. Based on his post here he just comes off all wrong.

HOWEVER... looking at his profile he's got quite an impressive portfolio so clearly he knows his stuff and he's just presenting himself inefficiently.

He obviously has quite a lot to offer:

7 years of investing since 2010
Experienced in single family and commercial rental
10 flips under his belt

I mean he's no Grant Cardone, but he'll get there. I can see how from his perspective people would be fools not to take him up on the offer, but I think he needs to work on how he markets himself to those people. Had I not bothered to check his profile I'd have simply written him off too.

Marketing is everything, be the kind of person you want to attract and they'll flock to you

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Joe Delaney

Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 4 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl

I don't think what you're offering is unreasonable. I'm currently just doing research and trying to find my way in the world of real estate, and to be made an offer wherein a 10% ROI would come back to me PLUS additional knowledge and contacts would seem like an awesome opportunity. It gives the newbie the opportunity to learn from doing, without having a lot of skin in the game, and could work as a great first stepping stone.

Is 10% low? Maybe in some real estate markets. It certainly isn't in the stock market. And that doesn't come with experience and additional contacts.

You're making a valuable proposition. Maybe it's too bad others don't see it that way. Maybe you're offering this to people who aren't really ready to play the game. I would think you'd be able to use this to narrow down your list for deals in the future- to see which newbies are really greenhorns hungry for knowledge and experience and which ones just like to be called investors (and will likely fizzle out and disappear within a year or two).

1 Reply

Iverem Rose

Real Estate Agent · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2014 · 250 posts · 60 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl

Despite my anti-GURU sentiment, I believe many newbies do have an unrealistic perception of real estate as a get rich quick business which breeds that sense of entitlement you see. When you read the success stories of new investors making 40-50k on their first flips, it without question gives others hope that such a feat is possible. While it may be difficult to accept, those success stories are exceptions to normal dismal returns new investors receive on their first deals.

2 Reply

Brian Gallagher

Berlin, Berlin · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 3 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl

I completely agree with you.

While I love BP (and am new to BP), a lot of the marketing that BP does sounds like a 'get rich quick' scheme. While on every podcast and in every article folks say "this took lots of hard work" or "I lost X on my first deal." There is still a certain hype/energy here that says "YOU CAN GET RICH QUICK!" - which... is not completely the truth.

I appreciate you (and others) speaking up and talking about the ups and downs of this field. I've learned that I need to be cautious before proceeding at all. Thanks for the post.

1 Reply

Pedro Martins

Rental Property Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2016 · 48 posts · 55 votes

9y

@Shiloh Lundahl I know of several newbies that would take the deal you are offering which is really a loan deal at an ok rate (below HMLs), with the added benefit of some learning and networking.

On the other hand, I also know a lot of newbies that may be newbies in practical experience but have educated themselves very well and look at that and think - "so, you make 30% profit and you're offering me 10%? Why don't you let me put in my money as an equity partner instead of as a loan?"

I am not saying that either way is better or smarter, but I think that many people are using the "entitlement" badge too much whenever they don't get their way... (and ironically, that is also being entitled!!!)

1 Reply

Tim S.

Northeast, WI · Member since 2016 · 44 posts · 13 votes

9y

As mentioned above, I think the problem is if you sound in person like you do on your post, it might sound condescending and ironically enough it sounds like you are entitled. It sounds like because you spent $75k on a RE education and have done some investing you are entitled to people lining up to invest their money in your projects. In return they get to learn from what you with a 10% return on their investment. The truth is that not everyone needs their hand held to be successful in real estate investing. Some people have done enough research and have the confidence and skill to just buy a property themselves and experiment and still come out with a better than 10% profit on their project and learn an unbelievable amount from it. So they might not mean to be insulting or sound entitled by declining your offer. Maybe they just believe their money is better invested elsewhere or aren't interested in going into business with you.

Newbies: Eager to learn or Entitled?

Newbies: Eager to learn or Entitled?

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