WHY CAN'T CONTRACTORS JUST DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY WILL DO????

WHY CAN'T CONTRACTORS JUST DO WHAT THEY SAY THEY WILL DO????

Tony WooldridgePro Member
Rental Property Investor · Walla Walla, WA · Member since 2016 · 480 posts · 346 votes

I first must apologize for screaming at all of you in the title but if you have any experience or can relate to the title at all you know why I am frustrated.  This is nothing more than a venting session on my part and an opportunity for you all to share your frustrating experiences as well!  

How can contractors (not all of them are bad, I know, I just need more time to find the good ones!) stay in business running their businesses this way? It is the classic I will be there on Tuesday to begin sheet rocking your project followed by me receiving a text informing me my helpers want to attend a Halloween party so I cannot make it Tuesday but will be there 1st thing Wednesday morning. I text Wednesday afternoon only to find out that they will not be making it yet again. My GOSH!!!!! Then last night after multiple attempts of trying to get a hold of the contractor he finally informs me he can finally start this Sunday as he will finally have the help. WHY NOT JUST TELL ME THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE????? Anyway, this is my first flip so I am a newbie, make no mistake, I know I have made plenty of mistake and errors up and til this point in my flip but hey that is the price of admission into the wonderful world of REI!

So with that said, please share your frustrating stories to take my mind off my current (temporary) bump in the road. Thanks for allowing me to vent. And as always here is to wishing you all a successful 2017 in your REI ventures!

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Contractor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2015 · 379 posts · 740 votes
8y

It can be very difficult to find good contractors. A huge part of that is that, for the last 30 years or so, we've told any high school kid with half a brain that they should go get a 4-year college degree. So they do, whether they have any clue what they want to do or not. So when I need a new admin for the advertising business I own, I place an ad for a $10/hour entry level position and I get 100 resumes from kids who just graduated with a degree in speech communications, or marketing & PR, or some other BS degree (says the guy with a philosophy degree), and they're $100K in debt and no idea how they'll ever get out of it. 

Meanwhile, my remodeling business gets either Mexican immigrants (because the building trades are still honored there) or the American kids that high schools thought were too dumb to go to college. I have 25 really excellent full-time field employees now, but I've hired over 300 people to get there in the 8 years since I started the company.

But the other side of things is, investors tend to want things cheap. "Good, fast, cheap - pick 2" is pretty true. Investors will tend to pick the cheap contractor over the good contractor, because with so many wannabe investors chasing deals, the margins get slimmer and slimmer. If you have a really tight deal, you honestly can't afford a top-notch contractor, so you may go with the Craiglist guy. Sometimes, you even get lucky and he turns out to know what he's doing. Other times, not so much.

From a reputable contractor perspective, I stopped taking investor work a couple of years ago. Investors are always looking for the lowest price, and unfortunately, a lot of new investors really don't have a realistic idea of what things cost or what's possible. I have 8 crews booked out for a month on homeowner jobs, which pay better and are less hassle, and two more crews dedicated just to my own investment properties. Investor work just doesn't make sense.

So what's an investor to do? Either you have to look harder to find real deals - where you can afford what it costs to do it right - or you need to find that needle in the haystack of good contractors who aren't already overbooked with work. That might be someone who's just gone out on his own and is building his book of business. If you develop a mutually beneficial relationship with someone like that, it may be good for both of you for years.

I see a lot of suggestions on here about buying materials yourself, not paying a deposit, things like that. Those are generally bad suggestions and will get you only bad contractors. No good contractor wants clients supplying their own materials - clients don't do this every day, and there's a huge change that they will have the wrong items, or not have everything you need. That slows down jobs and makes them unprofitable. And no good contractor will front a client the money (on a big job, not handyman stuff) for materials and pay their guys' weekly paychecks out of their own pocket until the client - hopefully - pays. That's what deposits are for. The contractors who'll work without one are largely going to be the more desperate ones.

I strongly suggest when trying out a new contractor, that you limit the scope. Don't hire them for a full-house gut & remodel. Give them a bathroom to do, or flooring, or paint, or something small. If they totally screw it up, you may lose a little money, but you won't be one of the horror stories on here where a contractor has an entire house torn apart and isn't getting anything done. You can cut your losses when it's just on a small part of the scope. It does slow a job down, but it protects you financially. Once you've developed a good working relationship, you can increase the amount of work you give someone. 

Sorry this got long, but I hope these thoughts are useful to someone. Good luck out there!

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  • Manville, NJ · Member since 2015 · 140 posts · 59 votes
    8y

    So i have a policy that all my subs and employees know.  If the homeowner tries to hire you, you send them back to me.  If they cant do this then I never work with them again.  An investor repeatedly tried this with me recently.  So I fired him.  Everyone wants contractors to be good vendors.  Contractors need Investors to be good customers, and they rarely are.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y

    Get used to it or work towards having others handle it for you (employees or management companies).  You may go through phases of good and bad service (and communication) but it will generally never change.  There's the theoretical expected cost of real estate ownership and then there's the real cost, which includes delays and corrections...be sure to expect them.

  • Investor · Cary, NC · Member since 2015 · 71 posts · 26 votes
    8y

    Hear your pain. Don't worry, its more common than you think. I have worked on two houses and can already write a book on contractor experiences - not showing up for weeks, or not doing what said, or demanding more money in-between or anything else you can think of. Plumbers drilling through floor joists, carpenters drilling through plumbing pipes, using cheaper/different material than agreed upon. I have had a landscaper cut all the trees and create a mess in the yard, refused to take them out when we had already agreed on it and demanding more money because he knew I had to leave the country next day. Even the good ones you find, pay them their price in time, and you might think you have developed a good relationship with them for future work, will disappear when you try to contact them for a future job in a good market. I don't give anyone huge work now unless I have seen their work on a smaller fix, I don't give all the work to one person even if I think they are as good and might be cheaper, since if one leaves you have someone else doing the other job. I have also learnt to fire fast and hire slowly. I have had good/bad experiences with people from craigslist and through referrals, so wouldn't say one is better than the other. I wish they all could say "NO" if they really didn't want to do the job, instead of wasting time for both of us involved. I do have huge respect for the ethical contractors who work hard and take it through. If I find a good contractor now I enjoy working with them till it lasts, with complete understanding it might be short-lived.

  • Investor · Juneau, AK · Member since 2015 · 980 posts · 741 votes
    8y

    Indeed, just getting good people to show up can be a challenge. 

    And I know the score as a small time landlord. I am not a big shot doling out a hundred grand for large scale projects.

     My jobs are more like $500 to $5,000....and the public projects (city/state) and large commercial and new developments have work worth many times that amount.. 

    And many firms in my area (even some smaller ones) are chasing those larger jobs.  I can't compete. Some of the firms won't even call back (and probably don't need to)...

    But I have had some luck finding the electrician or plumber that will do smaller residential service work (step one) then building some rapport with repeat business (step two). Then I try and stand out some (step three).

    I try and follow up with a nice note, testimonial for their facebook and on a big job (like 5K-10K I may spring for lunch) so I hope to get  to know them some. I pay asap... every time.

    I also try and clear the way for the contractor so the area is clear, the scope of work is clear, and they can get in and out (not wade through a tenant's junk or have to do a half dozen add on tasks). 

    Then I seem to get calls back and can get on the schedule of most people I use. 

    It takes some time to find a good fit and build relationships but it can be worthwhile with contractors that do good work on schedule.

    Best of luck!

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    I have had some hiccups as well, but nothing crazy so far. I try my best to be good to the Contractors. Pay them as agreed and on time. No waiting. I'll grab coffee/lunch from time to time and offer to grab materials if I am able to, and they need them to keep plugging away. I have even helped them if two guys can tackle a smal task much quicker than one (pulling wire, testing things etc).

    I have found there is no trick, hire good people, and try to keep them happy. You still will have issues, but it is all part of the REI world.

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2014 · 239 posts · 177 votes
    8y
    Michael Hayworth couldn't have said it better myself man. Perfect. Our work has been mid to high end homeowner work for years. Easy, no hassle, paid properly, and time and time again we get an investor who might talk us into a project or two and I couldn't tell you the last time it wasn't extremely stressful, or cutting corners and cost. We do good work, having to lessen our standards because the planning on the investors part is either too tight or unrealistic is a massive hit to the conscience. Poor planning on your part does not create an emergency on ours. I'm sure there's a good balanced investor/contractor relationship out there somewhere, we just have yet to find one. So, we became investors ourselves! No one to better understand your contractor than to BE your own contractor!
  • Flipper · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2017 · 218 posts · 345 votes
    8y

    @Michael Hayworth

    @Todd Fithian

    Exactly the same issues ourselves.

  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    All the contractors in here complaining about investors need to go back and read the first post. This isn't about some cheap investor trying to squeeze every penny out of some poor contractor. This is about the huge number of lazy, unmotivated, and sometimes criminal people who call themselves "contractors". If you don't want to do a job, just tell me, don't come out and give me some ******** bid that is double or triple the normal cost, or tell me it will be 3-4 months before you can start work. WHY ARE YOU EVEN WASTING MY TIME WITH AN ESTIMATE!!??!! Do not take my money and never complete the work. That is nothing short of stealing. Do not tell me you can't get work done due to personal problems. I have personal problems too and my boss would fire me if I didn't show up for weeks because of these issues.
  • Investor · Grapevine, TX · Member since 2014 · 88 posts · 75 votes
    8y

    I had a very difficult time with contractors (even good quality ones) right after hurricane Harvey. After 7 years, I decided to stop doing fixer upper projects (20k each fix), I'm taking a break for a few years and waiting for the market to cool down and then hopefully buy 5-10 brand new units at once from a builder. I don't want the headache of dealing with contractors anymore.

  • Tony WooldridgePro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Walla Walla, WA · Member since 2016 · 480 posts · 346 votes
    8y

    @Anthony Gayden, I couldn't have captured the true essence of this post any better than your enlightening post.  All I think any one that has responded to up an til this point really wants is someone to do what they say they are going to do!  Once again, very good value add and you captured exactly my thought process.  Thanks for stopping in to share your thoughts which I guarantee more than myself relate to.  Here is to wishing you nothing but GR8 success in your 2017 ventures!  Thanks Anthony. 

  • Deland, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    it is because so many of them are completely and utterly disorganized

    I owe one contractor over 4 grand but they are so screwed up they can’t figure it out so it has been 2 months of me texting asking how to pay

    Another one finished the job 1 and a half months ago.  I called asking for them to finish one 5 min task. They have said twice they will be out to do it.  

    I actually finished it a month ago but they still are owed 2 grand but too busy or totally forgot about it, I really don’t know

    Another one left some materials worth approx $200 over a week ago   I text a picture of it outside.  

    They said they would be over that day to pick it up

    It is now ruined from rain and still sitting there 

    And yes everyone of them is licensed and insured in business a minimum of 5 years and 2 for over 20 years.   

    Just really messed up 

  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    8y

    @Anthony Gayden, maybe you should go back and read some of the contractors posts, we are investors too, i believe my post and @Michael Hayworth, @Todd Fithian, @Will Kirkexplain both sides of the coin and offer suggestions. these Forums are here to help fellow investors, i don't think anyone of us complained and left it at that, we answered the post to give incite, not to point fingers.

  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Patrick Liska:

    @Anthony Gayden, maybe you should go back and read some of the contractors posts, we are investors too, i believe my post and @Michael Hayworth, @Todd Fithian, @Will Kirkexplain both sides of the coin and offer suggestions. these Forums are here to help fellow investors, i don't think anyone of us complained and left it at that, we answered the post to give incite, not to point fingers.

     Are you condoning the sort of behavior I am pointing out? Or are you just mad that someone is standing up and declaring a very common problem among people in your profession?

    Go back and read my post. I'm sick of it, and I won't back down and ever say that this is acceptable behavior.

  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    8y

    @Anthony Gayden, I listen to both sides, that's how I learn, always learning, how you and others decide to take advice is up to you and them. You claim these problems with contractors and as a contractor and investor that uses many different contractors for my own business and for my properties, I see these things every day, but knowing how to work around them is a skill that is learned. I read your post and it is that attitude that is part of the reason I do not work with other investors as a Contractor. Am I mad at your post, No, that is your opinion and view of contractors, and probably the reason non want to work with you. Here is some advice for you: meet with a couple of contractors, take them to lunch, explain what you are doing with properties, explain your time lines, have a plan. Ask them if they are on board and can work with you. You also need to realize that you will not be their only customer, we do not sit around waiting to any one project, to keep crews busy we often have many projects going at one time because they are at different stages and uses different sub contractors ourselves that have their own schedules, it's a game of chess for Contractors and we have many pieces to move around. So any investor that thinks that they should be the only project that a contractor works on has a lot to learn about the construction industry. I am not standing up for all the fly by night contractors that are out there giving all the good Contractors a bad name, but hiring them, is like they say, you get what you pay for.

  • Tony WooldridgePro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Walla Walla, WA · Member since 2016 · 480 posts · 346 votes
    8y

    UPDATE:  The Contractor that I mentioned in my original post was fired shortly after I wrote my venting of the topic.  However, a silver lining in the story was that I was able to get another guy out that started right away and is making GR8 progress already.  So I guess that saying everything is meant to happen for a reason prevails again.  Thanks to all that have shared their stories with all of us.  There sure is something to be said for knowing you aren't the only one going through the rough times!  Thanks again BP Nation, as always you came through again!  

  • Real Estate Agent · Richardson, TX · Member since 2014 · 511 posts · 161 votes
    8y

    @Tony Wooldridge If you don't mind me asking, how did you vet your last contractor? I still remember my first flip, an experienced investor had referred a "good" GC to me. While he wasn't a bad contractor, he did go over budget by 1.5k. And these were issues that he should have been able to foreseen. He also would never pick up the phone. But interestingly enough, he was always on schedule. After he "finished" the rehab, he had missed a couple of touch ups. It took him forever to fix them, probably over a month. 

  • Tony WooldridgePro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Walla Walla, WA · Member since 2016 · 480 posts · 346 votes
    8y

    @Account Closed, I don't mind at all. My electrician (whom is a solid guy and does GR8 work) recommended this guy to me. Here is the funny thing. I had his crew already do a siding job for me and they did a GR8 job came in at a decent price and took exactly the amount of time he said it would take to get done. So it stood to reason that I already did business (established a relationship) with him before he should perform much the same as the first job preformed. NOPE, I was totally wrong. So in the end as I stated earlier, I found a new guy whom is doing a GR8 job as we speak and I am not losing precious days to no work being preformed. Thanks for stopping by Daniel appreciate your comment. Here is to wishing you nothing but success in your 2017 REI ventures!

  • Contractor · Longwood, FL · Member since 2015 · 11 posts · 5 votes
    8y

    This should make you feel a bit better.  5th contractor to come out an bid the job, that actually answered calls, provided a contract, and showed up.  3 week timeline per contract.  Payed for roof permit to be pulled.  Contractor should have started with the roof, seems obvious right, but didn't.  I was supplying materials, but relying on contractor to provide a list of said materials.  Took 2 weeks to get a solid list of materials.  At week 6, contractor has started everything and finished nothing (I had to unexpectedly be out state for a family illness).  Get a call that job is shut down by city for not pulling any permits.  Im new at this so did not realize things he was telling me were lies.  Twice, contractor's crew did not properly reboard the windows at the end of the day resulting in breakins and theft of materials.  After returning home and learning of the problems, contractor now wants to sue ME for the remaining payments due (around 30% of total bid amount).  Still calculating how many extra zeros will be added to the budget to correct issues with the city and get this project back on track to complete.  On top of that, the day the job was shut down, numerous materials (I provided) and equipment (I had to loan contractor??) are now missing.  Due to him starting everything without permits, we now are looking at a FULL set of engineered plans for the 2 houses on this property and the budget keeps going up.  The tuition for the school of hard knocks is steeper than I thought....  Best of luck to you!

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