First BRRRR loan falling apart

First BRRRR loan falling apart

Rental Property Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2011 · 512 posts · 290 votes

So our first BRRRR property was moving along great. We paid cash and renovated and received a great appraisal. Lender said my retirement account would count as reserves (since we would spend most of our liquid cash on the project). Now that we are going through underwriting they say they can't use these funds.

     I was surprised  they would count them originally but they checked with an underwriter and the underwriter said yes. 

     Now my best deal yet may turn into an unintentional flip. I really want to refinance the property and keep it. The irony is that the moment after closing I would have double the required funds. I knew they wouldn't count them as reserves but asked anyway. I was right. 

     I am asking for some brainstorming ideas from this community to help me save the deal and free up my cash. I am probably short about 14k on reserves required. I don't think they will allow gifted money for reserves. I don't think they will allow borrowed money either. I am now looking for portfolio lenders in San Antonio or other options. Please let me know what you think if you have any ideas. 

     My preferred exit strategy is to refinance it and keep it for a rental. A distant second concern is if I have any recourse for being misinformed by the lender. I based my strategy on what seems to be misinformation. 

     Thanks in advance for any ideas you may have to help me resolve this dilemma. 

-Will

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Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
10y
Will Pritchett Will if it's something you really want to do get a commercial loan. The down payment is a little higher and the interest is a bit more but they will lend to an LLC and don't care how many loans you have. There will be a balloon and refi down the road a few years. Mine have a 25 year amortization. These loans are based more on the performance of the property than your personal finances.
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  • Stephanie MedellinBusiness Member
    Mortgage Broker · CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 642 votes
    10y

    @Ralph R. Yes, except when they say 1 month reserves, it is always prinicipal, interest, taxes, and insurance (and HOA if applicable). It's not just P & I.

    Stephanie Medellin, Loan Factory58 Reviews
  • Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    10y

    @Stephanie Medellin @Shaun Weekes  wow that greatly reduces the reserve requirement. That's good news for those using conventional loans. RR

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    @Ralph R., if it's a Fannie Mae loan that is mostly correct. I say "mostly" because you didn't include taxes and insurance in your 'old method' reserve requirement calculation. 

    You're also correct that this rewards paying balances down.

    Note that most borrowers have no idea if the loan about to be originated is Fannie or Freddie. Freddie is still 'old method.' Some lenders are "Freddie only" and some are "Fannie only." I always work at shops that give me the option. 

  • Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    10y
    Chris M. That's interesting because one of the reasons I started using commercial loans was I didn't want to have large amounts of money tied up in the bank as reserves every time I bought a property. I have a 401b that I cannot get to unless I quit my job and was told I could not use it as reserves. I have 6 loans and the total monthly Piti is several thousand dollars. Times six and I would need to keep enough cash around to buy another property. I wasn't comfortable with that. I'm not sure the new rule would get me down enough to help but I'm gonna know before I get another loan. Thanks Chris. RR
  • Francisco TrejoPro Member
    Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2016 · 44 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    Great discussion, Will, I also have 457 ( deferred comp. Plan ) that  I'm using as my reserves on triplex investment conventional loan. Just signed the loan Docs yesterday. Scheduled to close Friday. 

    My lender just required a copy of terms on the account. I was able to get that from the website, very generic just states that you are able to withdraw up to 50 %of total amount, in form of a loan to yourself. Pretty much what Brian

    Commented above.

    Happy to share lender if you need it.

    I'm in California but I belive my lender is nation wide.

    Best luck.

  • Investor · Hoffman Estates, IL · Member since 2014 · 434 posts · 185 votes
    10y

    If this is an investment property then you can't use a 401k or other employer sponsored retirement account. Typically we'll allow 60% of a retirement account, but on an investment property you're not allowed to withdraw from it, even if you're going in foreclosure.  BUT you could take a loan out, typically 50% of the account balance or $50,000 whichever is less.  Have them utilize the terms of a loan, rather than the terms of withdrawal.

    If it is an IRA, you can use that.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2011 · 512 posts · 290 votes
    10y

    Thank you all for your feedback. As an update, the mortgage broker is agreeing with what is being stated here. They blame the misinformation regarding using my 457 plan as reserves on a lender who has since gone out of business. They are using these new reserve amounts which I likely won't have still (17K). It does significantly reduce the amount that is required. 

         I am angry that they gave me bad info on which I built my strategy. Now I am considering selling a vehicle to boost reserves. Or perhaps going commercial. I didn't give numbers originally so I feel this may help paint the picture for what it is worth. This is a type of loan with which I have to close within six months of original purchase. It will finance 70 percent of new appraised value or the purchase price; whichever is LESS. 

         Purchased house for 85k cash (savings and loan from 457 plan)  rehabbed for 10K cash (savings)  new appraised value 124K. This means I could theoretically pay myself back for all except the rehab expense. This would then cash flow as a rental. I see this as creating almost 30K in equity. Maybe not a home run but potentially my best deal to date. (This would be my fourth rental)

         I would normally never deplete reserves this far - just did it counting on replenishing reserves quickly.  To be clear, my other rentals more than cover the loan against retirement account. 

         I would have plenty of reserves if I used hard money and the refinance would be easier but that is expensive money. I think it is ironic that I would be better off (in the bank's eyes) borrowing more money than using my own funds; especially since after closing I would have three times their required reserves. 

         I could sell and make a small profit after taxes but I prefer to buy and hold. This is just a small hiccup in my business. I will not be deterred. I am just frustrated and looking for ways to save the deal. 

         I appreciate all the ideas and feedback. Don't hold back if you have feedback for me. Even if (especially if) you think I am on the wrong track. 

    Thanks to all,

    Will

  • Investor · Sugar Land, TX · Member since 2016 · 109 posts · 46 votes
    10y
    Will, I'm not responding on the subject of reserve but on the refinancing part. Thanks to a member of BP, Matt Huber, I was able to pull out 75% of appraised value, not purchased. I give my cash to my family, who then loan me back my money, thus this is a private loan. After I rehab, I refinance and got my cash out, leaving your equity as down payment basically. End to end takes about 7 weeks for me (from the time I close with the purchase, rehab, refinance, close on the refinance and receive cash back in term of loan - conventional).
  • Rental Property Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2011 · 512 posts · 290 votes
    10y

    @Thu Nguyen thank you! Why is the private loan helpful?  Reserves not required? Just a little unclear on the details. 

  • Investor · Sugar Land, TX · Member since 2016 · 109 posts · 46 votes
    10y

    @Will Pritchett, Private loan is helpful because you can borrow 75% of the "Appraised Value", vs if you do cash re-fi, you can only borrow 75% of your cost + repair. I refinance as soon as I closed on the purchase transaction and not have to wait 6 months to borrow against ARV.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2011 · 512 posts · 290 votes
    10y

    so quick update: I found a way to get reserves and close next month. Then the lender sends me documents indicating they will loan me 14k less than agreed upon. They now say that the appraisal was sent to a desk review and the appraisal of 124K was recalculated to 105K. Has this happened to anyone else? It seems so wrong and I feel really screwed around now. Is this legal? I am wondering what the point of an appraisal is if they can just adjust values after the fact? 

         To clarify, I am dealing with a mortgage broker recommended by a lifestyles unlimited member. They blame all the issues on the lender that my loan was assigned to.  Their first excuse was that they got bad info regarding my reserve funds from a lender who was now conveniently out of business. Now they blame the high appraisal on an appraiser who has since been fired. It seems convenient that the blame keeps being assigned to people or companies that no longer exist. 

         Thanks in advance for any feedback. 

    -Will

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