Do PALs from RE offset capital gains from stock dividends and another question

Do PALs from RE offset capital gains from stock dividends and another question

Rental Property Investor · San Francisco Bay Area · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I have been doing my own taxes and have a large amount of Passive Activity Losses from my rentals, don't want to mention the specific number but it's a lot in the thousands. I'm a W2 employee, all long term rentals, no STRs.

#1) If I have capital gains from stock dividends and interest income (high yield saving accounts, etc) are those offset by my PALs. Someone told me it doesn't. I have been buying stocks, index funds, and Master Limited Partnerships (which I will get a Form K-1). I would consider investing in stocks and index funds to be passive. Why does the IRS consider it ordinary income? Would ordinary income include my W2, stock dividends and interest income? 

#2) Why is everyone I know buying STRs and doing accelerated and bonus depreciation? I assume the STR loophole is to to offset active W2 income. If go buy a property for STR, can I then unlock all the PALs from previous years for my LTRs? That seems like a huge headache, managing an STR from out of state and meeting the material participation hours from OOS. Buying a property in the Bay Area to STR would cost over $1 million. I don't see the point of all these investors doing STRs for the tax savings, for higher cash flow OOS, it does make sense. I haven't done any cost segs on any of my SFH rentals. I thought unless you're REPS it doesn't make sense to do cost seg, and accelerated and bonus depreciation. Am I missing something here? I'm confused.

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Sean O'KeefePro Member
CPA | Accepting new clients | 50 States · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
1y

There's a lot here - I'll focus on the misconception below:

Question: If go buy a property for STR, can I then unlock all the PALs from previous years for my LTRs?

Answer: No, buying an STR doesn't change the nature of historical passive losses on other LTRs you own and carried forward from prior tax years

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Sean O'KeefePro Member
    CPA | Accepting new clients | 50 States · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
    1y

    There's a lot here - I'll focus on the misconception below:

    Question: If go buy a property for STR, can I then unlock all the PALs from previous years for my LTRs?

    Answer: No, buying an STR doesn't change the nature of historical passive losses on other LTRs you own and carried forward from prior tax years

  • Benjamin AakerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Brandon, SD · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    I'm not an accountant and it is much better to ask yours (probably time to get one).

    1. Stock gains are considered capital gains and can't be offset by passive losses from your real estate portfolio. A STR purchase won't help you do this. You could look at becoming a real estate professional (REP) and offset your active income with real estate losses, but that's outside the scope of your question. The IRS does not consider your stock earnings to be ordinary income, they are capital gains. And that's only if you realize the gains by selling. Ordinary income for you is your W2 income.
    2. These investors are accelerating their depreciation to get the tax benefits. This depreciation offsets the income from the STR. These investors aren't buying for the tax savings. They are buying for the income and utilizing the tax savings they are offered. You don't need to be a REP to enjoy these benefits. Often the cost segregation is done with the intent to sell sooner than the 27.5 years of depreciation for a commercial property, thus gaining more depreciation to offset the income.
  • Sean O'KeefePro Member
    CPA | Accepting new clients | 50 States · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Benjamin Aaker:
    I'm not an accountant and it is much better to ask yours (probably time to get one).

    1. Stock gains are considered capital gains and can't be offset by passive losses from your real estate portfolio. A STR purchase won't help you do this. You could look at becoming a real estate professional (REP) and offset your active income with real estate losses, but that's outside the scope of your question. The IRS does not consider your stock earnings to be ordinary income, they are capital gains. And that's only if you realize the gains by selling. Ordinary income for you is your W2 income.
    2. These investors are accelerating their depreciation to get the tax benefits. This depreciation offsets the income from the STR. These investors aren't buying for the tax savings. They are buying for the income and utilizing the tax savings they are offered. You don't need to be a REP to enjoy these benefits. Often the cost segregation is done with the intent to sell sooner than the 27.5 years of depreciation for a commercial property, thus gaining more depreciation to offset the income.

    Stock gains are considered capital gains and can't be offset by passive losses from your real estate portfolio. A STR purchase won't help you do this. This is also incorrect. @Benjamin Aaker

    If you have STR, that meets IRS requirements and materially participate the losses from an STR can be used to offset non-passive income (W-2, 1099, etc.). 

    Let's leave the real estate taxes to real estate tax professionals. It confusing enough already as it is.

  • Accountant · Pasadena, CA · Member since 2014 · 102 posts · 36 votes
    1y

    Hi Becca - Here’s a quick breakdown:

    PALs generally can’t offset W-2 wages or investment income (like dividends and interest). Why the IRS doesn’t consider stock or index investing as passive is a separate discussion.

    Many investors go for STRs and use accelerated or bonus depreciation to offset W-2 or ordinary income. The "STR loophole" allows them to treat rental income as non-passive if they meet material participation and other requirements.

    Can an STR unlock PALs from LTRs? No—LTR PALs can only offset passive income, so an STR's non-passive losses won't absorb them.

    Cost seg studies and bonus depreciation depend on each person’s tax situation; they’re not only useful for REPS. It’s all about individual tax planning.

  • Basit SiddiqiBusiness Member
    Accountant · New York, NY · Member since 2015 · 8k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    Dividends, Capital gains in general are considered 'portfolio income' and not necessarily considered active/passive.

    Therefore, passive losses from rentals won't help to offset your portfolio income(Interest, dividends, capital gains).

    There is an exception if the capital gains comes from a passive activity.
    I.E. the sale of a rental property

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco Bay Area · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Sean O'Keefe:
    Quote from @Benjamin Aaker:
    I'm not an accountant and it is much better to ask yours (probably time to get one).

    1. Stock gains are considered capital gains and can't be offset by passive losses from your real estate portfolio. A STR purchase won't help you do this. You could look at becoming a real estate professional (REP) and offset your active income with real estate losses, but that's outside the scope of your question. The IRS does not consider your stock earnings to be ordinary income, they are capital gains. And that's only if you realize the gains by selling. Ordinary income for you is your W2 income.
    2. These investors are accelerating their depreciation to get the tax benefits. This depreciation offsets the income from the STR. These investors aren't buying for the tax savings. They are buying for the income and utilizing the tax savings they are offered. You don't need to be a REP to enjoy these benefits. Often the cost segregation is done with the intent to sell sooner than the 27.5 years of depreciation for a commercial property, thus gaining more depreciation to offset the income.

    Stock gains are considered capital gains and can't be offset by passive losses from your real estate portfolio. A STR purchase won't help you do this. This is also incorrect. @Benjamin Aaker

    If you have STR, that meets IRS requirements and materially participate the losses from an STR can be used to offset non-passive income (W-2, 1099, etc.). 

    Let's leave the real estate taxes to real estate tax professionals. It confusing enough already as it is.

     I realized after that I should have done two separate posts. I don't understand the reasoning behind why the IRS doesn't consider stock dividends and interest income to not be passive income. Buying stocks and just letting money sit in a high yield savings account is much more passive than any type of rental property. That sounds terrible, that I have thousands in PALs that keep getting pushed forward (unless I sell off a property) but if I sell some stocks off in 10 years, that counts as capital gain. 

    Do I have this correct:

    Ordinary income = W2 income

    Passive income = long term rental real estate. Do Mid term rentals fall into this group? I would consider MTR. STRs sound like too much work to me.

    Portfolio income = stock dividends, interest income (from banks, credit union etc), Master Limited Partnerships (Form K-1), Business Development Companies (Form 1099), bonds, interest earned from investing in a real estate debt fund, interest earned from being a private lender

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 826 posts · 810 votes
    1y

    @Becca F. Have you performed an amortization analysis to see when your net earnings after depreciation starts to become positive? Given your strategy and limited exposure to cash flow markets you likely will be stuck with suspended PALs for 10+ yrs. It’s not the end of the world but it doesn’t feel optimal.

    There are likely other creative options, but perhaps you can buy cash with your next purchase and then lever up after you’ve clear your PAL bank. I balance my portfolio so that I always have a slight buffer of PAL.

  • Michael PlaksPro Member
    Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Becca F.:

    Do I have this correct:

    Ordinary income = W2 income

    Passive income = long term rental real estate. Do Mid term rentals fall into this group? I would consider MTR. STRs sound like too much work to me.

    Portfolio income = stock dividends, interest income (from banks, credit union etc), Master Limited Partnerships (Form K-1), Business Development Companies (Form 1099), bonds, interest earned from investing in a real estate debt fund, interest earned from being a private lender

    Asking why our tax laws are written a certain way is not going to lessen your tax burden. Many reasons: to encourage/discourage certain economic behavior, to appease a certain industry lobby or some fellow lawmakers or even sometimes a private individual, to buy votes, to balance economic effects of a new law, as well as simply out of incompetence of our lawmakers. Whatever. Our tax laws are one huge irrational abomination.

    Here's a very incomplete (and not even using technically accurate jargon) 101 which needs a lot of clarifications:

    A. Ordinary/regular income:
    compensation for work or running a business, such as W2 or 1099s, as well as retirement distributions.

    B. Portfolio income:
    interest, dividends, and capital gains from investments in stocks, bonds, mutual funds and so on. 

    C. Passive income: LTRs, MTRs, and most K1s.

    D. Nonpassive income: Real Estate Professionals, STRs and K1s from businesses where you have hands-on involvement aka material participation.

    Each group has its own rules, and generally they cannot offset one another. One notable exception is that nonpassive losses can offset anything, which explains our current obsession with STRs.

    Specifically to your questions.

    1 - No, cannot apply PAL against dividends/interest but probably can apply PAL against your K1 income (as long as it distributes ordinary business income and not interest/dividends)

    2 - STRs do not unlock prior year PAL, and neither does Real Estate Professional status, by the way. Even if STRs did unlock PAL (and they don't), out of state STRs probably will not work anyway, due to the challenges in meeting "material" participation test for out of state properties. Read this:
    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/51/topics/1122635-the-s...

    Cost segregation for your LTRs/MTRs may only be beneficial if you have a spouse who can qualify for the Real Estate Professional status, and then for one year only.

    And you're right: business is more important than taxes. STRs do not always make business sense.

  • Sean GrahamBusiness Member
    Investor , CPA · Detroit, MI · Member since 2016 · 586 posts · 249 votes
    1y
    Quote from @Becca F.:

    I have been doing my own taxes and have a large amount of Passive Activity Losses from my rentals, don't want to mention the specific number but it's a lot in the thousands. I'm a W2 employee, all long term rentals, no STRs.

    #1) If I have capital gains from stock dividends and interest income (high yield saving accounts, etc) are those offset by my PALs. Someone told me it doesn't. I have been buying stocks, index funds, and Master Limited Partnerships (which I will get a Form K-1). I would consider investing in stocks and index funds to be passive. Why does the IRS consider it ordinary income? Would ordinary income include my W2, stock dividends and interest income? 

    #2) Why is everyone I know buying STRs and doing accelerated and bonus depreciation? I assume the STR loophole is to to offset active W2 income. If go buy a property for STR, can I then unlock all the PALs from previous years for my LTRs? That seems like a huge headache, managing an STR from out of state and meeting the material participation hours from OOS. Buying a property in the Bay Area to STR would cost over $1 million. I don't see the point of all these investors doing STRs for the tax savings, for higher cash flow OOS, it does make sense. I haven't done any cost segs on any of my SFH rentals. I thought unless you're REPS it doesn't make sense to do cost seg, and accelerated and bonus depreciation. Am I missing something here? I'm confused.

    Great questions.

    Passive losses (like depreciation) cannot offset portfolio income (like stocks/index funds) even if one qualifies for REPS or STR loophole. Portfolio income is different than ordinary income (like W2). 

    You cannot change prior years. Qualification is annual. You can qualify for material participation one year but not another. 

    People often use cost segregation to help offset 1) real estate capital gains from the sale of another property and 2) passive income from real estate activities. 

    Does that make sense? 
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  • Ashish AcharyaBusiness Member
    CPA, CFP®, PFS · FL · Member since 2017 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    @Becca F.

    1. PALs and Stock/Interest Income: Passive Activity Losses (PALs) from rentals cannot offset capital gains, dividends, or interest income. The IRS treats these as portfolio income, not passive.

    2. STRs and Tax Savings: STRs allow depreciation to offset W2 income if you meet material participation. This is why STRs are popular for tax savings, but managing them, especially out of state, can be challenging.

    3. Cost Segregation: Cost segregation and bonus depreciation work best for those with REPS or substantial rental income. Without REPS, accelerated depreciation on long-term rentals only defers PALs without offsetting W2 or portfolio income.

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    • Jason MalabuteBusiness Member
      Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 906 votes
      1y

      No PALs cant offset your capital gains from stock dividends and interest income.

      Bonus depreciation rules is the same for short term as it is long term. It will benefit you to do cost segregation if you are a real estate professional or you make less than $150,000 modified AGI and then you can offset your active income with your passive losses.

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    • Julio GonzalezPro Member
      Specialist · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y

      I think many people have sufficiently answered your question, but here's an article that you may find helpful regarding STRs to determine if this is a strategy you are interested in. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions!

      https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/530/topics/1215596-the-short-term-rental-loophole-explained

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