Illegal immigrants as tenants
Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 12 votes
Illegal immigrants as tenants
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Residential Real Estate Broker · College Station, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 969 votes
8y@Philip Bennett. At least from a Texas standpoint - you could do whatever you desire.
First, being an "illegal immigrant" is not a "protected class". So, you are not discriminating against any of the "protected classes" - race, creed, familial status, etc.
Second, you have someone who cannot provide you with an acceptable completed application.
Third, the Texas Association of REALTORS Standard Application has a block for SSAN - you need that to accurately identify the person you are credit screening.
If you own the property, you can "NOT ACCEPT" the applicant without fear of retribution.
273 Replies
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Anyone without social security number can apply for an ITIN - Individual Tax Identification Number - that also has 9 digits and can be used instead of the social security number.
ITINs cannot be used to work.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Anyone without social security number can apply for an ITIN - Individual Tax Identification Number - that also has 9 digits and can be used instead of the social security number.
ITINs cannot be used to work.
Yes, the government happily accepts tax payments with those
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Anyone without social security number can apply for an ITIN - Individual Tax Identification Number - that also has 9 digits and can be used instead of the social security number.
ITINs cannot be used to work.
Yes, the government happily accepts tax payments with those
That's not the same thing. Please research -- perhaps a Google search such as "can I work with ITIN".
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Charleston, SC · Member since 2014 · 92 posts · 43 votes8yTax IDs can be used to work. Tax IDs can be used to start LLCs. That how all the big companies use illegals around here. Say I was a home builder and wanted to use illegal immigrant labor as 1099 subcontractors, have them give you there tax if number use them as labor write it off on the books as 1099 subcontractor send them 1099 and the legal tax burden is off of your business and on to the 1099.
- Urbana, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 425 votes8y
Wow, gotta say this thread has gone in so many directions! @Anthony Conway you make a great point about how contractors can pay the TAxids of workers and you wouldn't know if they are legal or not. Understood and fair and thanks for sharing. I knew this but didn't realize it before until you put it that way.
More importantly, I've got to agree with others that, unfortunately, a policy is a policy. Its put in place by us landlords buts it enforced and often at the cost of us by the government. If I were to find out a an applicant were an illegal immigrant when I have a statement in my lease stating (roughly) 'tenants doing illegal things may be evicting' then yeah, I'm not going to risk it. Even if that illegal person manages to fill out an entire application and pass a backround test and I decide to rent to them, then okay! They went through the policy and provided information - thankfully, in my applications there is a clause stating how misinformation can get you into trouble. I feel like this discussion has been a back and forth of those who have a 1 page lease agreement and haven't been hit hard yet and those with a 10+ page lease agreement who aim to cover their butts.
- Visalia-Fresno, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 863 votes8y
@Account Closed a sense of humor is always fun.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Anthony Conway:
Tax IDs can be used to work. Tax IDs can be used to start LLCs. That how all the big companies use illegals around here. Say I was a home builder and wanted to use illegal immigrant labor as 1099 subcontractors, have them give you there tax if number use them as labor write it off on the books as 1099 subcontractor send them 1099 and the legal tax burden is off of your business and on to the 1099.
Keywords: "Say I was a home builder and wanted to use illegal immigrant labor..."
In your scheme both parties are knowingly violating the law. Good stuff.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes8yA lot will also have to do with your personal state and municipality besides federal laws. A broker or other landlords can’t help you in your question since it’s legal and you could get into more problems if you don’t adhere to your laws. It’s a tangled legal web. So go and talk to your local real estate attorney to get legal and enforceable applications for potential tenants to fill out and talk to a local immigration lawyer for a definitive answer. Also, post your sane question on the legal site avvo.com which is a site lawyers like me go on for such legal questions.
- Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Cara... I am telling you that your policy will have a disparate impact on protected classes of people. If you do not know what that means then you are not qualified to be a real estate professional.
Your insults aren't necessary. We can have a dignified conversation (even if we disagree) without insulting eachother, right?
I guess I am wondering how you connected the OP's question of illegal immigrant who cannot apply, to protected classes? You understand that illegal immigrants are NOT a protected class, right?
Regarding the legitimate protected classes, this has nothing to do with them. A policy is a policy. To deny someone the ability to rent one of your units because they can't properly complete the application for whatever reason is just following policy. The only violation would be if you told them that they couldn't be your resident because they were (Fill in the blank of the protected class).
Sticking to policies aren't a bad thing. Think of it this way..... If you are pulled over by the cops for speeding and they ask for your driver's license, and you tell them that you couldn't get that because of whatever reason, is the cop going to make an exception because the person in the car is of a certain protected class or illegal immigrant? Of course not! So, having a policy for doing business is the way the world works. Bending the rules for one person over the other is how you open yourself up to liability as people can claim selective enforcement.
Whether protected class, or illegal immigrant or reagular every day Joe, if you can't provide the necessary requirements to apply (as determined by the landlord), then a rejection of your application is not a grounds for civil lawsuit. It is simply just a no.
If every landlord had the same application form, the same policies and applied them in the same way to everybody then it would be appropriate to compare the situation to drivers licensing.
So I'm with Michael. The trouble with "A policy is a policy" is that it allows people to have policies like not allowing people to rent or get a job if they plan to have children.
You can't have a policy that would prohibit a person from renting if they plan on having children because that would be an illegal policy based on a protected class. However, having a policy that requires that every tenant meet screening criteria is not illegal and not discriminatory.
I don't know how much more clear I can be. If you have anything new to bring to the conversation, I am happy to continue.
Right. So we've established that "A policy is a policy" doesn't cut it. Good.
What we are trying to get you to acknowledge is that it is possible for a policy to be non-discriminatory in statement and intent but discriminatory in effect.
So here is my example. Suppose an employer was totally inflexible on working hours.
Is that illegal - no.
Is that discriminatory - on the face of it no.
But is it likely to discourage a working mother from applying and disadvantaging them if they do.
I am not even sure how to respond to your post. It is so off the mark, I am stunned just reading it.
Good luck to you my friend.
- 8yNed J.Pro MemberInvestor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Wow this thread is all over the place.....
Is it illegal for me to require a full credit and background check?.... No it is not. Is it illegal for me to require a 650+ credit score?....no it is not. Case closed......
Until it is ruled illegal in a court of law for me to do so because its "discriminatory" towards or against some protected class, then there is no legal precedent for me to not be able to set that as my policy and stick by "my policy is my policy". My policy is not illegal....
Illegal immigrants are not a protected class....and my policy does not break the law
This isn't about your opinion that you could argue about it in a court of law....you can make a case about just about anything....this is whether you could win that argument. And until someone actually does that and set a legal precedent, that its illegal for me to REQUIRE a credit and back ground check, then there is no case against me. PERIOD. If you can't provide me that info that is needed to do that....no matter the reason....then I have the legal right to decline....case closed
If you want to rent to illegal immigrants....fine....got no problem with it.....not debating whether they make good tenants or not....that irrelevant.....
Don't want to run a credit report....your choice....no background....your choice....... want to rent to someone with no SSN....your choice.....but its not ILLEGAL for me to require those things.....
The basic argument is.....can I LEGALLY decline you because you cant provide the needed info for me to be able to run my required background and credit check? The answer is YES.....case closed.....
- Investor · Kent, WA · Member since 2015 · 25 posts · 20 votes8yIn my experience it’s never been a problem renting to undocumented immigrants. Probably because they know there’s more problems that come with going into a courtroom, so they have always paid rent on time and left the house in great shape. As far as SSN, depending on how long they’ve been here m, there’s quite a few “fake” ones out there. Keep in mind until about 10 years ago they could buy a home and get a mortgage, but a car or open credit cards under a deceased number. Just look at when it was issued. If they’re in their 30s-40s but was issued in 1938 it’s a deceased number. Morally I guess it’s up to you, I figure if I don’t someone else will so what’s the harm. I don’t think there’s anything wrong or bigoted about not renting to them either, just a personal choice.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Tom Gimer No. But if a landlord discriminates against a foreign born person with high financial wherewithal because he does not have a social security number they should expect the following...
The courts at the very beginning of the process will determine if the policy tends to block people because of national origin. The bar is fairly low for that determination. Once that has happened there is ZERO chance of the landlord getting attorney's fee back.
Then the court would shift the burden of proof to the landlord to prove no less discriminatory alternatives existed.
And... if you say "I cannot do a credit report search without one" or "I cannot report defaults on their credit without it" then Experian will be there to call you a liar.
To quote them...
"Your Social Security number is an important identifier because it is the one unique identifier to every American, but it is not absolutely necessary. If a lender is willing to open an account for you without a Social Security number, you still could have a credit report.
If an account has been opened for you and it is reported to Experian, we will use all of the identifying information provided to establish a credit report, even in if there is no Social Security number."
By this point the legal fees could be extremely high and the landlord will be paying them for the tenant and themselves.
- Investor · Charleston, SC · Member since 2014 · 92 posts · 43 votes8yTom Gimer ITINs cannot be used to work? What do you mean by this? What I am saying is our government gives these people tax IDs specially to work. Also: say I was a home builder and hired a subcontractor to do work, this is not illegal. There is no way for me as homebuilder to know the 1099 I hired is legal or illegal resident. I know this thread has gone off topic. I just want people to know that our government knows very well about a lot of the illegals here and even gives them tax IDs to work with. So yes we rent to tax IDs with photo IDs to match and pay stubs or verified jobs.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Ned J. You can get credit reports on people without a social security number. If you are a creditor you can also give information to the credit reporting agencies without a social security number.
I should probably say it again... Having a social security number does not mean someone is in the country legally.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Tom Gimer No. But if a landlord discriminates against a foreign born person with high financial wherewithal because he does not have a social security number they should expect the following...
The courts at the very beginning of the process will determine if the policy tends to block people because of national origin. The bar is fairly low for that determination. Once that has happened there is ZERO chance of the landlord getting attorney's fee back.
Then the court would shift the burden of proof to the landlord to prove no less discriminatory alternatives existed.
And... if you say "I cannot do a credit report search without one" or "I cannot report defaults on their credit without it" then Experian will be there to call you a liar.
To quote them...
"Your Social Security number is an important identifier because it is the one unique identifier to every American, but it is not absolutely necessary. If a lender is willing to open an account for you without a Social Security number, you still could have a credit report.
If an account has been opened for you and it is reported to Experian, we will use all of the identifying information provided to establish a credit report, even in if there is no Social Security number."
By this point the legal fees could be extremely high and the landlord will be paying them for the tenant and themselves.
I'm sorry... your understanding of the concept of national origin discrimination is incorrect.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Tom Gimer Are you suggesting that a particular "nation" of origin would have to be singled out for discrimination? Are you suggesting disparate treatment would have to be proven? Are you suggesting the court would use a different method than the two pronged approach of Town of Huntington v. Huntington Branch?
- Real Estate Agent · Lakeland, FL · Member since 2016 · 5 posts · 3 votes8y
It is up to the property manager discretion, If they can provide references and have a cosigner to back them up, you will be just fine, actually the legal term to called them is undocumented immigrants not illegal immigrants.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Account Closed I'm suggesting that your basic understanding of the concept is wrong -- all foreign-born applicants would not be a protected class. And yes, I'm also suggesting that relying on a 1988 2nd Circuit case which did not deal with the national origin issue would be incorrect. There is a much more recent Supreme Court decision (2015 -- Inclusive Communities) which outlines a 3 prong test with burden shifting and a much higher first bar. Further, none of these cases deal with private landlords and creditworthiness criteria.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Property Manager · Murfreesboro, TN · Member since 2015 · 85 posts · 48 votes8y
This has been an Interesting thread.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Tom Gimer I am quoting your last post to many of my friends via social media. It makes me laugh to say I am aware of Texas Dept. of Housing and Community Affairs vs Inclusive Communities Project. I am in a group picture on the Inclusive Communities Project website. LOL
I never said that "all foreign-born applicants" are a protected class. I said there would be a disparate impact on people who are in protected classes. In short... it will tend to make the residents tend to be more Anglo than they would be without the policy. It would also tend to make it be less Asian because foreign students tend to be Asian. 77% of foreign students are from Asia if anyone is interested.
I also said Experian will say exactly what they say on their website. You do not need a social security number to run a credit report. You also do not need a social security number to add something to someone's credit report.
Believe me when Experian says that and you say it is a "creditworthiness criteria" the courts will say it is arbitrary at best.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Account Closed Why can't the theoretical applicant obtain a SSN? Why not just request one? They're easy to get... if you qualify. Oh, perhaps that's the issue.
When you find a published decision on this issue in the context of a private landlord establishing what he/she believes to be reasonable criteria to predict rent will be paid in order to protect that legitimate business interest, post it.
Or, chat with your social media friends and then enlighten us as to the "inclusive" alternative to credit, references, employment and income info.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2015 · 380 posts · 201 votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Tom Gimer I am quoting your last post to many of my friends via social media. It makes me laugh to say I am aware of Texas Dept. of Housing and Community Affairs vs Inclusive Communities Project. I am in a group picture on the Inclusive Communities Project website. LOL
I never said that "all foreign-born applicants" are a protected class. I said there would be a disparate impact on people who are in protected classes. In short... it will tend to make the residents tend to be more Anglo than they would be without the policy. It would also tend to make it be less Asian because foreign students tend to be Asian. 77% of foreign students are from Asia if anyone is interested.
I also said Experian will say exactly what they say on their website. You do not need a social security number to run a credit report. You also do not need a social security number to add something to someone's credit report.
Believe me when Experian says that and you say it is a "creditworthiness criteria" the courts will say it is arbitrary at best.
This could be argued for any policy. You could say that setting an income requirement is discriminatory, because men make more than women as a whole.
Can you let us know what the ideal requirements would be for a tenant, to not be discriminatory?
- Investor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 24 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Tom Gimer Having a social security card does not mean someone is in the US legally.
Most people illegally in the United States came here legally and overstayed their visa. The card does not vaporize when their visa expires.
In fact, people are deported and keep the same social security number.
I never mentioned a social security card. I mentioned a social security number... which would be used in addition to ID to confirm identity and determine creditworthiness, the whole point of this exercise.
Same thing. People still have the same social security number. They don't lose it, even if they lose their status. Government agencies are not connected and ICE doesn't go to the social security administration and tells them who's visa has expired.
So?
You and @Michael Biggs are focusing on the irrelevant.
If someone is who they say they are, and they have sufficient credit and income to rent your property... there you go. If they can't meet that criteria, sorry.
There are lots of things that affect your credit that have nothing whatsoever to do with your ability to meet your rental obligations and alot to do with the demographic you come from.
The percentage of white Americans that have a credit score over 720 is double that of African Americans and 50% more than Latinos.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/credit-card-race-ag...
So put bluntly a minimum credit score stipulation significantly increases the chance you will end up renting to a white applicant.
That's not what you may intend when you institute that policy but that's the effect of it.
Okay so what I'm getting from your side of this discussion is that it could be discriminatory to require a SSN and/or a credit check?
So basically the banks, employers, credit card companies, landlords, and even our government are discriminating against "protected classes" by requesting very basic information about a person. Right. Got it.
And don't bring up that whole argument that it's discrimination because statistically one race or another has higher credit scores and honestly that is directly a racist argument based on profiling a whole group of people by their credit score. That really has no bearing on the reason to request a credit check.
My immediate concern for an applicant is that they have a history of making payments on time and to show that they are financially responsible. In our world pretty much every financial organization uses the credit score to determine exactly that. So, logically that would make banks and government financial institutions racist if you really believe your argument.
- 8yNed J.Pro MemberInvestor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Based on the argument, you could make a case for discrimination on just about ANY criteria then....
Wont accept felons?......well there are stats that say there are more African American felons in the US that white felons.....so you must be discriminating against African Americans by not accepting felons.....
Require 3x the rent in income? Well there are stats that say a disproportional number of part time workers are women....so people that only work part time wont meet that criteria for income....and a larger % of them will be women as opposed to men....so you must be discriminating against women....
Smokers?..... people that own pets?......
So you can go around and around with the argument that there is no criteria that will be EXACTLY applicable evenly across every gender, age, religion, country of origin, race......
Lawyers....they can argue about ANYTHING for hours....... until the argument is won in a court of law, its doesn't mean its law.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Anthony Conway:
Tom Gimer
ITINs cannot be used to work?
What do you mean by this?
What I am saying is our government gives these people tax IDs specially to work. Also: say I was a home builder and hired a subcontractor to do work, this is not illegal. There is no way for me as homebuilder to know the 1099 I hired is legal or illegal resident. I know this thread has gone off topic. I just want people to know that our government knows very well about a lot of the illegals here and even gives them tax IDs to work with. So yes we rent to tax IDs with photo IDs to match and pay stubs or verified jobs.That's not accurate. Our government gives people ITINs because they requested an ITIN. These numbers are for banking, tax-related, benefits-related matters.
US employers cannot hire a person with only an ITIN.
People "working" with ITINs in the way you have identified are abusing the system. Businesses paying them on a 1099 basis are contributing to the problem.
We're also aware that many in government have no problem with this blatant disregard for US law... in fact they encourage it. For them, this is part of the fundamental transformation of America. Enjoy!
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