Illegal immigrants as tenants
Anchorage, AK · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 12 votes
Illegal immigrants as tenants
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Residential Real Estate Broker · College Station, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 969 votes
8y@Philip Bennett. At least from a Texas standpoint - you could do whatever you desire.
First, being an "illegal immigrant" is not a "protected class". So, you are not discriminating against any of the "protected classes" - race, creed, familial status, etc.
Second, you have someone who cannot provide you with an acceptable completed application.
Third, the Texas Association of REALTORS Standard Application has a block for SSAN - you need that to accurately identify the person you are credit screening.
If you own the property, you can "NOT ACCEPT" the applicant without fear of retribution.
273 Replies
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Tom Gimer Having a social security card does not mean someone is in the US legally.
Most people illegally in the United States came here legally and overstayed their visa. The card does not vaporize when their visa expires.
In fact, people are deported and keep the same social security number.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Franklin Romine I am going to consider what you said a joke. That would get you prosecuted for Harboring.
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Account Closed
In an effort to keep the conversations civil and fair for the betterment of all and to foster education. I would like to propose the same question to you.
What criteria would you recommend a landlord obtain before renting a multifamily dwelling?
To remain hypothetical I will provide a scenario:
You own a 3 unit building, unit one is a 2 bedroom unit rented out.Unit 2 is a 3 Bedroom unit. Unit 3 is available and is a studio apartment. You have an applicant show up requesting your criteria. What is a fair and honest set of criteria for that unit?
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
@Ihe O. There isn't a relevant US statute, as far as I can tell. Unless and until there is, let's focus on how the current law applies.
The US version which isn't even good law concerns LGBT issues.
So what do you think the legal opposition to the President's travel ban is based on.
But if you think it's lawful to carve out policies for your rentals that have the effect of disproportionally disfavouring certain nationalities or immigrants I'm not your attorney so ......
Not to get to political, but few outside the 9th circuit and the Beltway believe there is. However, you are illustrating my point. The travel ban will wind through the courts and the decision will eventually be settled law. The discussion you have provided here is not settled law
If the travel ban becomes settled law it will be because the Supreme Court decides that the President has sweeping executive powers to regulate who comes into the country and they trump the discriminatory findings of the various (not just the 9th circuit) appellate courts.
Unfortunately there is not a corresponding executive authority vested in landlords to regulate who comes into their unit that trump the discriminatory effect a policy of theirs may have.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Mike Cumbie:
I will apologize for making a comment that did not include a fair option for you to respond properly.
I am sorry and my intention was not to dissuade you from posting your opinion or suggestions.
I will rephrase.
What criteria do you recommend a landlord to require of an applicant and what proof would you suggest they utilize to remain compliant?
Ok that's gracious of you.
The checks I would run would be on their criminal and civil litigation history, source of income verification and rental history (previous landlords).
As I have said here their immigration status is none of my business, as is their credit score and SSN because if the things I check come back good I don't care what their credit score is.
- Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Cara Lonsdale I hope you are smart enough to know most people would find your condescension insulting. Arrogance is always a sign of being ignorant. Let me explain a few things you apparently do not know.
1) E-verify is voluntary for almost all employers in the United States.
2) Having a social security number or card does not mean someone is in the United States legally.
3) Not having a social security number does not mean someone is in the United States legally.
4) There is something called "disparate impact." Wikipedia defines it as follows... "Disparate impact in United States law refers to practices in employment, housing, and other areas that adversely affect one group of people of a protected characteristic more than another, even though rules applied by employers or landlords are formally neutral.
5) Many of the people living in the United States legally without a Social Security number have much more financial wherewithal than the average tenant.
6) The Fair Housing Act does prohibit housing discrimination based on nation of origin.
7) Most foreign students do not have social security numbers.
I hope you are not suggesting that "policy" to anyone near a major law school, medical school, nursing school, flight school. Many of those student pay a year in advance.
I am also aware that the original post was about people in the country illegally. Other people changed the subject to e-verify and social security.
If someone wants not to rent to illegal immigrants is it fairly simple. Simply add this to your application.
"It is policy of the landlord not to rent to people in the country illegally. Are all applicants in the United States legally? Yes No"
It is that simple. That is really enough to keep people from renting from you.
By the way... in most places if someone called ICE and told them one of their tenants was in the United States illegally they would laugh and hang up.
Wow. Now I'm arrogant....and the names and insults just keep on coming.
I am not arrogant, and I am not ignorant. I love how when people can't have a discussion, they turn to name calling and insulting other people. It really is too bad.
You really have lost the whole point....which is that a landlord can require that a background check and credit check are completed in order to consider a potential tenant for one of their units. Without the ability for someone to do that (illegal or otherwise), they cannot be considered for leasing the unit. There's no need to place all of these layers of discrimination. It doesn't apply. It is NOT discrimination! Just because they lack the ability to follow the rules doesn't mean the rules have to be bent in order to allow them to participate. Come on man! The same would be true if a WHITE MALE applied and didn't have the ability to complete the application so that a background and credit check can be done on him.
Landlords have rights too! I can have a policy that requires background checks and credit checks. If one cannot be done, I have the right to decline the application.
Let me ask you a different question.... if my policy is to run background and credit, and I make exceptions for immigrants (let's even take the illegal part out for a minute to appease your continued point about nation of origin), what happens when a white male comes to my unit and wants to rent from me, but refuses to provide SS#? Am I now to be expected to accept this as well? At what point can my policy be enforced according to your way of thinking? Or should I just open my doors and let anyone in who can come up with the first month's rent?
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
First of all, being in this country without proper status is not a crime - it's a civil infraction, which is a non-criminal breaking of a rule or statute - similar to jaywalking or driving without your license. As much as certain groups love to spread the 'fake news' that undocumented immigrants are criminals, just by being here - it doesn't make it so under U.S. law.
Second, almost all are with hope, that some day, when Trump is gone, there's a potential amnesty. They all know, if that were to happen or if they were offered a line to get into to apply for legal status, that they have to be squeaky clean in their background check.
So, if you were renting to an undocumented immigrant, you'll likely not have problems with not getting rent, because they're here to work and make a better life. You'll also not likely to have damage or have to deal with things that might bring them in contact with the law.
There are 2 main goals I hope for with the tenants I select:
1. that they take care of the place and don't destroy it
2. That they pay the rent.
Screening is just a tool to help me choose and it's not the where-all be-all. So, if I can find other ways to help me predict that 1 and 2 are met, then I'm good with it. Don't care about legal status.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Tom Gimer Having a social security card does not mean someone is in the US legally.
Most people illegally in the United States came here legally and overstayed their visa. The card does not vaporize when their visa expires.
In fact, people are deported and keep the same social security number.
I never mentioned a social security card. I mentioned a social security number... which would be used in addition to ID to confirm identity and determine creditworthiness, the whole point of this exercise.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Tom Gimer Having a social security card does not mean someone is in the US legally.
Most people illegally in the United States came here legally and overstayed their visa. The card does not vaporize when their visa expires.
In fact, people are deported and keep the same social security number.
I never mentioned a social security card. I mentioned a social security number... which would be used in addition to ID to confirm identity and determine creditworthiness, the whole point of this exercise.
Same thing. People still have the same social security number. They don't lose it, even if they lose their status. Government agencies are not connected and ICE doesn't go to the social security administration and tells them who's visa has expired.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Tom Gimer Having a social security card does not mean someone is in the US legally.
Most people illegally in the United States came here legally and overstayed their visa. The card does not vaporize when their visa expires.
In fact, people are deported and keep the same social security number.
I never mentioned a social security card. I mentioned a social security number... which would be used in addition to ID to confirm identity and determine creditworthiness, the whole point of this exercise.
Same thing. People still have the same social security number. They don't lose it, even if they lose their status. Government agencies are not connected and ICE doesn't go to the social security administration and tells them who's visa has expired.
So?
You and @Michael Biggs are focusing on the irrelevant.
If someone is who they say they are, and they have sufficient credit and income to rent your property... there you go. If they can't meet that criteria, sorry.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Mike Cumbie It is important to remember every market is completely different. I can only tell you what works in my market, the rents are going up fast. There is also no shortage of tenants. I can always rent a property within three days. So many of the concerns that other people have about people breaking the lease are the reverse here. If someone breaks the lease I keep their deposit and will have the place cleaned and occupied almost immediately for an increased rent. We are also in a state where it is not extremely difficult to get someone evicted. All of my tenants know if they are ten days late and have not got the ok from me that I will file for eviction.
I have also owned a bail bonding company. So... skip tracing is not an issue.
So the only thing I worry about at all is damage to the property. I limit that as much as possible. I normally have someone in every unit TWICE a month. Once is ac filters and another small check. The other is fire alarms and another small check. The small checks are always things like looking for leaks or making sure all the switches work. Obviously if that person sees a major problem, the tenant is dealt with immediately.
Before the application process I tell the tenants all of that. So they do not expect any maintenance problems and they know someone will not allow them to slowly destroy the property. They also know there is no reason to move out in the middle of the night because I might even give them part of their deposit back if they give notice they want to move out before the lease is up.
All that being said...
I use a standard but reasonably simple application. I always tell the applicants if they do not have something talk to me about it. If the person has a rental history that is the most important factor to me. I really do call past landlords. I also look at satellite photos and street view of the property. I might do a drive by. That is absolutely the best indicator of what kinds of tenants they will be. If they do not have a rental history, I am much more interested on the money side of things. Either way there are no exceptions on the having the full deposit, and first months rent, and pet deposit. I simply do not verify income.
I do not approve people with evictions.
BUT my situation is completely different from other people's in other markets.
- Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
@Account Closed
Agreed. We live in a state where the worst case is we can get someone out within 3 weeks or so. Much of the pushback on BP regarding tenants is in many states it may take months to get rid of a non payer. I respect the fact that they need to use a different strategy
The Golden Rule seems to have worked for me for 25+ years. Those here illegally have been some of my best tenants and will continue to be
- Realtor and Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Cara... I am telling you that your policy will have a disparate impact on protected classes of people. If you do not know what that means then you are not qualified to be a real estate professional.
Your insults aren't necessary. We can have a dignified conversation (even if we disagree) without insulting eachother, right?
I guess I am wondering how you connected the OP's question of illegal immigrant who cannot apply, to protected classes? You understand that illegal immigrants are NOT a protected class, right?
Regarding the legitimate protected classes, this has nothing to do with them. A policy is a policy. To deny someone the ability to rent one of your units because they can't properly complete the application for whatever reason is just following policy. The only violation would be if you told them that they couldn't be your resident because they were (Fill in the blank of the protected class).
Sticking to policies aren't a bad thing. Think of it this way..... If you are pulled over by the cops for speeding and they ask for your driver's license, and you tell them that you couldn't get that because of whatever reason, is the cop going to make an exception because the person in the car is of a certain protected class or illegal immigrant? Of course not! So, having a policy for doing business is the way the world works. Bending the rules for one person over the other is how you open yourself up to liability as people can claim selective enforcement.
Whether protected class, or illegal immigrant or reagular every day Joe, if you can't provide the necessary requirements to apply (as determined by the landlord), then a rejection of your application is not a grounds for civil lawsuit. It is simply just a no.
If every landlord had the same application form, the same policies and applied them in the same way to everybody then it would be appropriate to compare the situation to drivers licensing.
So I'm with Michael. The trouble with "A policy is a policy" is that it allows people to have policies like not allowing people to rent or get a job if they plan to have children.
You can't have a policy that would prohibit a person from renting if they plan on having children because that would be an illegal policy based on a protected class. However, having a policy that requires that every tenant meet screening criteria is not illegal and not discriminatory.
I don't know how much more clear I can be. If you have anything new to bring to the conversation, I am happy to continue.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Cara Lonsdale As I have said over and over. Not every person who is in the country legally qualifies for a social security card. I can give you a long list of the potential types of visas a person could be on that don't have a social security number.
How about you give us the list of US jobs these people can hold without a social security number.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Augusta, GA · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 7 votes8y
I never ask for immigration status when I interview my potential tenants. To me, the proof of income and good references are pretty much the most important things I care about. Sometimes keeping things simple is better.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Tom Gimer Actually... many of those students get paid to go to school so I am not sure why they would need a job. Many others in the US without a Social Security number are investors and business owners.
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Cara Lonsdale I think you are missing the fact that there is no requirement to prove your intention was discriminatory. In fact, the person that files suit can say you had no discriminatory intent.
Would your policy cause you not to rent to people who were in the United States legally but born outside the US even if they had $10,000,000 in the bank and offered to pay the full lease in advance?
If the answer is "yes", then whatever you do seek legal advice immediately if someone complains about it.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Tom Gimer Having a social security card does not mean someone is in the US legally.
Most people illegally in the United States came here legally and overstayed their visa. The card does not vaporize when their visa expires.
In fact, people are deported and keep the same social security number.
I never mentioned a social security card. I mentioned a social security number... which would be used in addition to ID to confirm identity and determine creditworthiness, the whole point of this exercise.
Same thing. People still have the same social security number. They don't lose it, even if they lose their status. Government agencies are not connected and ICE doesn't go to the social security administration and tells them who's visa has expired.
So?
You and @Michael Biggs are focusing on the irrelevant.
If someone is who they say they are, and they have sufficient credit and income to rent your property... there you go. If they can't meet that criteria, sorry.
There are lots of things that affect your credit that have nothing whatsoever to do with your ability to meet your rental obligations and alot to do with the demographic you come from.
The percentage of white Americans that have a credit score over 720 is double that of African Americans and 50% more than Latinos.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/credit-card-race-ag...
So put bluntly a minimum credit score stipulation significantly increases the chance you will end up renting to a white applicant.
That's not what you may intend when you institute that policy but that's the effect of it.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Thomas S.:
For those landlords believing that they are safe by not knowing the relevant facts about a applicant...under the law ignorance is not a valid defence.
You're wrong again - a tenants immigration status is not a relevant fact.
" In general, the landlord doesn’t have the duty to inquire about status, explains Professor Seng. That means that since most criminal standards require that the offender know that they are committing the offense, renting to an illegal immigrant is typically not prosecuted as a criminal offense even in the states that consider it to be one."
https://www.ezlandlordforms.com/articles/education...
and nobody has yet been prosecuted for it in Oklahoma where it's been on the statute book for 10 years.
http://kgou.org/post/9-years-later-oklahoma-immigration-law-has-little-lasting-impact
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Cara Lonsdale I hope you are smart enough to know most people would find your condescension insulting. Arrogance is always a sign of being ignorant. Let me explain a few things you apparently do not know.
1) E-verify is voluntary for almost all employers in the United States.
2) Having a social security number or card does not mean someone is in the United States legally.
3) Not having a social security number does not mean someone is in the United States legally.
4) There is something called "disparate impact." Wikipedia defines it as follows... "Disparate impact in United States law refers to practices in employment, housing, and other areas that adversely affect one group of people of a protected characteristic more than another, even though rules applied by employers or landlords are formally neutral.
5) Many of the people living in the United States legally without a Social Security number have much more financial wherewithal than the average tenant.
6) The Fair Housing Act does prohibit housing discrimination based on nation of origin.
7) Most foreign students do not have social security numbers.
I hope you are not suggesting that "policy" to anyone near a major law school, medical school, nursing school, flight school. Many of those student pay a year in advance.
I am also aware that the original post was about people in the country illegally. Other people changed the subject to e-verify and social security.
If someone wants not to rent to illegal immigrants is it fairly simple. Simply add this to your application.
"It is policy of the landlord not to rent to people in the country illegally. Are all applicants in the United States legally? Yes No"
It is that simple. That is really enough to keep people from renting from you.
By the way... in most places if someone called ICE and told them one of their tenants was in the United States illegally they would laugh and hang up.
Wow. Now I'm arrogant....and the names and insults just keep on coming.
I am not arrogant, and I am not ignorant. I love how when people can't have a discussion, they turn to name calling and insulting other people. It really is too bad.
You really have lost the whole point....which is that a landlord can require that a background check and credit check are completed in order to consider a potential tenant for one of their units. Without the ability for someone to do that (illegal or otherwise), they cannot be considered for leasing the unit. There's no need to place all of these layers of discrimination. It doesn't apply. It is NOT discrimination! Just because they lack the ability to follow the rules doesn't mean the rules have to be bent in order to allow them to participate. Come on man! The same would be true if a WHITE MALE applied and didn't have the ability to complete the application so that a background and credit check can be done on him.
Landlords have rights too! I can have a policy that requires background checks and credit checks. If one cannot be done, I have the right to decline the application.
Let me ask you a different question.... if my policy is to run background and credit, and I make exceptions for immigrants (let's even take the illegal part out for a minute to appease your continued point about nation of origin), what happens when a white male comes to my unit and wants to rent from me, but refuses to provide SS#? Am I now to be expected to accept this as well? At what point can my policy be enforced according to your way of thinking? Or should I just open my doors and let anyone in who can come up with the first month's rent?
I'm going to post the same stats to you.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/credit-card-race-ag...
So statistically that white male you are talking about is twice more likely to have a credit score over 720 than a black one.
- Investor · Charleston, SC · Member since 2014 · 92 posts · 43 votes8yWe have a very big population here in Charleston, Sc and I would say more then 50% of the construction workforce is undocumented. But almost all of them have Tax ID # that our government issued them and some form of identification that even our government accepts to get there tax ID#. So yes with a tax ID and some form of Picture ID we will rent to them, just like our government will give them a tax ID. Like mentioned above most of them our very good tenants that come here to work and just want a decent place to live. Now there are a lot of landlords that take advantage of this and rent out shacks and threaten to call the police or ICE if they have any problems. Most illegals are god fearing people that know the only way to make it in life is to work hard, better tennant class then most low income legal residents that want everything for free. For the people saying it is illegal to do this, our government knows that These people are here. Our government uses these people to work, our government gives them tax IDs to tax them. These tax IDs start businesses. It is a whole corrupt system that our government controls. Don’t be sheep, figure it out for yourself.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 395 posts · 191 votes8y
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Cara... I am telling you that your policy will have a disparate impact on protected classes of people. If you do not know what that means then you are not qualified to be a real estate professional.
Your insults aren't necessary. We can have a dignified conversation (even if we disagree) without insulting eachother, right?
I guess I am wondering how you connected the OP's question of illegal immigrant who cannot apply, to protected classes? You understand that illegal immigrants are NOT a protected class, right?
Regarding the legitimate protected classes, this has nothing to do with them. A policy is a policy. To deny someone the ability to rent one of your units because they can't properly complete the application for whatever reason is just following policy. The only violation would be if you told them that they couldn't be your resident because they were (Fill in the blank of the protected class).
Sticking to policies aren't a bad thing. Think of it this way..... If you are pulled over by the cops for speeding and they ask for your driver's license, and you tell them that you couldn't get that because of whatever reason, is the cop going to make an exception because the person in the car is of a certain protected class or illegal immigrant? Of course not! So, having a policy for doing business is the way the world works. Bending the rules for one person over the other is how you open yourself up to liability as people can claim selective enforcement.
Whether protected class, or illegal immigrant or reagular every day Joe, if you can't provide the necessary requirements to apply (as determined by the landlord), then a rejection of your application is not a grounds for civil lawsuit. It is simply just a no.
If every landlord had the same application form, the same policies and applied them in the same way to everybody then it would be appropriate to compare the situation to drivers licensing.
So I'm with Michael. The trouble with "A policy is a policy" is that it allows people to have policies like not allowing people to rent or get a job if they plan to have children.
You can't have a policy that would prohibit a person from renting if they plan on having children because that would be an illegal policy based on a protected class. However, having a policy that requires that every tenant meet screening criteria is not illegal and not discriminatory.
I don't know how much more clear I can be. If you have anything new to bring to the conversation, I am happy to continue.
Right. So we've established that "A policy is a policy" doesn't cut it. Good.
What we are trying to get you to acknowledge is that it is possible for a policy to be non-discriminatory in statement and intent but discriminatory in effect.
So here is my example. Suppose an employer was totally inflexible on working hours.
Is that illegal - no.
Is that discriminatory - on the face of it no.
But is it likely to discourage a working mother from applying and disadvantaging them if they do.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Tom Gimer Actually... many of those students get paid to go to school so I am not sure why they would need a job. Many others in the US without a Social Security number are investors and business owners.
Are unemployed students now a protected class?
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Anyone without social security number can apply for an ITIN - Individual Tax Identification Number - that also has 9 digits and can be used instead of the social security number.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Ihe O.:
Originally posted by @Thomas S.:
For those landlords believing that they are safe by not knowing the relevant facts about a applicant...under the law ignorance is not a valid defence.
You're wrong again - a tenants immigration status is not a relevant fact.
" In general, the landlord doesn’t have the duty to inquire about status, explains Professor Seng. That means that since most criminal standards require that the offender know that they are committing the offense, renting to an illegal immigrant is typically not prosecuted as a criminal offense even in the states that consider it to be one."
https://www.ezlandlordforms.com/articles/education...
and nobody has yet been prosecuted for it in Oklahoma where it's been on the statute book for 10 years.
Leading with "You're wrong again" is the guy who cites British law as summarized in magazines.
If my would-be tenant can't produce evidence of good credit, income and the ability to continue earning, that's relevant.
Based on your latest posts, that's also racist. smh
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