Too Much Data or Not Enough Clarity in Property Management?
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Greg ScottPro Member
Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votesI not seeing the opportunity here, but would love it if there were.
From a financial perspective, most systems keep things on track. If you are letting your tenant get further and further behind on rent, that is simply bad landlording.
From a physical condition perspective, I would love to have a predictive tool that could anticipate growing problems. However, I see no feasible way to do that because the signal to noise ratio makes that nearly impossible. Let me be specific...
From a financial perspective, most systems keep things on track. If you are letting your tenant get further and further behind on rent, that is simply bad landlording.
From a physical condition perspective, I would love to have a predictive tool that could anticipate growing problems. However, I see no feasible way to do that because the signal to noise ratio makes that nearly impossible. Let me be specific...
- A well-managed SF property should only have the occasional problem pop up. If there have been no problems for months, is it a concern if both the garbage disposal and the AC go out on the same month? Probably not. Too much noise, no signal.
- Properties are not machines and the reported problems are often based on inconsistencies of people. We've had different property managers. Some are on top of things. Some are not. Some residents complain about the tiniest details. Some are happy to live with big problems.
Here is a recent example. The kitchen light of one apartment unit fell because it was filled with water. We knock on the door of the unit above and ask if there were any water problems. "Yes" as he shows us a kitchen filled with puddles "There has been water coming out from under the kitchen sink for a few weeks". Of course, he never told us and the cabinets are now destroyed too. (It cost several thousand dollars to fix, but we charged the costs to his insurance.) There was no data that would have predicted this. There was no signal to trigger a warning.
15 Replies
- 4moGreg ScottPro MemberRental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votesI not seeing the opportunity here, but would love it if there were.
From a financial perspective, most systems keep things on track. If you are letting your tenant get further and further behind on rent, that is simply bad landlording.
From a physical condition perspective, I would love to have a predictive tool that could anticipate growing problems. However, I see no feasible way to do that because the signal to noise ratio makes that nearly impossible. Let me be specific...- A well-managed SF property should only have the occasional problem pop up. If there have been no problems for months, is it a concern if both the garbage disposal and the AC go out on the same month? Probably not. Too much noise, no signal.
- Properties are not machines and the reported problems are often based on inconsistencies of people. We've had different property managers. Some are on top of things. Some are not. Some residents complain about the tiniest details. Some are happy to live with big problems.
Here is a recent example. The kitchen light of one apartment unit fell because it was filled with water. We knock on the door of the unit above and ask if there were any water problems. "Yes" as he shows us a kitchen filled with puddles "There has been water coming out from under the kitchen sink for a few weeks". Of course, he never told us and the cabinets are now destroyed too. (It cost several thousand dollars to fix, but we charged the costs to his insurance.) There was no data that would have predicted this. There was no signal to trigger a warning.
- 4moDrew SygitBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
Quote from @Greg Scott:
I not seeing the opportunity here, but would love it if there were.
From a financial perspective, most systems keep things on track. If you are letting your tenant get further and further behind on rent, that is simply bad landlording.
From a physical condition perspective, I would love to have a predictive tool that could anticipate growing problems. However, I see no feasible way to do that because the signal to noise ratio makes that nearly impossible. Let me be specific...- A well-managed SF property should only have the occasional problem pop up. If there have been no problems for months, is it a concern if both the garbage disposal and the AC go out on the same month? Probably not. Too much noise, no signal.
- Properties are not machines and the reported problems are often based on inconsistencies of people. We've had different property managers. Some are on top of things. Some are not. Some residents complain about the tiniest details. Some are happy to live with big problems.
Here is a recent example. The kitchen light of one apartment unit fell because it was filled with water. We knock on the door of the unit above and ask if there were any water problems. "Yes" as he shows us a kitchen filled with puddles "There has been water coming out from under the kitchen sink for a few weeks". Of course, he never told us and the cabinets are now destroyed too. (It cost several thousand dollars to fix, but we charged the costs to his insurance.) There was no data that would have predicted this. There was no signal to trigger a warning.
and it's NOT practical to walk-thru properties as often as required to catch issues like these!
Logical Property Management4.9450 Reviews - Real Estate Consultant · Los Angeles · Member since 2026 · 48 posts · 10 votes4moGreg — fair point. I’m not thinking prediction, more visibility.
Quote from @Greg Scott:
I not seeing the opportunity here, but would love it if there were.
From a financial perspective, most systems keep things on track. If you are letting your tenant get further and further behind on rent, that is simply bad landlording.
From a physical condition perspective, I would love to have a predictive tool that could anticipate growing problems. However, I see no feasible way to do that because the signal to noise ratio makes that nearly impossible. Let me be specific...- A well-managed SF property should only have the occasional problem pop up. If there have been no problems for months, is it a concern if both the garbage disposal and the AC go out on the same month? Probably not. Too much noise, no signal.
- Properties are not machines and the reported problems are often based on inconsistencies of people. We've had different property managers. Some are on top of things. Some are not. Some residents complain about the tiniest details. Some are happy to live with big problems.
Here is a recent example. The kitchen light of one apartment unit fell because it was filled with water. We knock on the door of the unit above and ask if there were any water problems. "Yes" as he shows us a kitchen filled with puddles "There has been water coming out from under the kitchen sink for a few weeks". Of course, he never told us and the cabinets are now destroyed too. (It cost several thousand dollars to fix, but we charged the costs to his insurance.) There was no data that would have predicted this. There was no signal to trigger a warning.
Small signals (delays, no reporting, open tickets) don’t mean failure—but they can show risk building.
Would that be useful, or do you feel current systems already cover it? - Real Estate Consultant · Los Angeles · Member since 2026 · 48 posts · 10 votes4moExactly, that’s the gap I’m seeing.
Quote from @Drew Sygit:
Quote from @Greg Scott:
I not seeing the opportunity here, but would love it if there were.
From a financial perspective, most systems keep things on track. If you are letting your tenant get further and further behind on rent, that is simply bad landlording.
From a physical condition perspective, I would love to have a predictive tool that could anticipate growing problems. However, I see no feasible way to do that because the signal to noise ratio makes that nearly impossible. Let me be specific...- A well-managed SF property should only have the occasional problem pop up. If there have been no problems for months, is it a concern if both the garbage disposal and the AC go out on the same month? Probably not. Too much noise, no signal.
- Properties are not machines and the reported problems are often based on inconsistencies of people. We've had different property managers. Some are on top of things. Some are not. Some residents complain about the tiniest details. Some are happy to live with big problems.
Here is a recent example. The kitchen light of one apartment unit fell because it was filled with water. We knock on the door of the unit above and ask if there were any water problems. "Yes" as he shows us a kitchen filled with puddles "There has been water coming out from under the kitchen sink for a few weeks". Of course, he never told us and the cabinets are now destroyed too. (It cost several thousand dollars to fix, but we charged the costs to his insurance.) There was no data that would have predicted this. There was no signal to trigger a warning.
and it's NOT practical to walk-thru properties as often as required to catch issues like these!
If we can’t inspect more often, maybe we need better ways to surface what needs attention between inspections.
- Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes4mo
@Greg Scott, you didn't state WHAT the leak source was. It may, or may not have been preventable, impossible to tell at this moment. @Drew Sygit, this is why you need to be proactive...don't wait until an issue explodes, inspect and act preemptively.
We have the "useful life tables" to inform estimated life of each element, and of course, once you replace an element you have a definite starting point of reference. Then it becomes a question of the durability of the specific element, and the choice you make when purchasing. For example, some "hecho en Mexico" faucets realistically will only last a couple years with no parts availability, if you are lucky. While others (such as Moen) can easily last twenty years, AND be easily repairable with proven manufacturers parts support.
Of course you cannot avoid the results of misuse by Tenants, or a manufacturing defect that fails without warning, but the point is you do need to visually inspect, annually, with a good flashlight, in areas that are common sources for problems. Sink traps are notorious, as are the flex connectors. I always try to push my thumb through a metal trap to see if it is corroding from the inside. Flex lines, age and type are the key issues, I always use SS braided no-burst, and change them at 10 years or on fixture replacement.
Looking for hidden signs of water intrusion is critical. Again, a good flashlight, checking ceilings, corners, baseboards, in closets and both upper (especially those that go up to the ceiling) and lower cabinets, focusing on known areas of internal plumbing runs and actual sources such as water heaters, condensate drain lines, refer water lines, and of course steam or hot water heating systems are a constant battle.
It is always less costly to address these issues proactively, on your schedule, rather than re-actively, usually after 5 on a Friday or Holiday weekend.
Nursing an old plumbing system, aging roof, and poorly sealed windows will drain your bank account. Bite the bullet, make the big spend, solve the problem, and then perform routine preventative maintenance to extend the life of the element as much as possible. Just be sure you have addressed the root cause of the symptoms that spurred your actions.
- Real Estate Consultant · Los Angeles · Member since 2026 · 48 posts · 10 votes4moRichard, I like this approach.
Quote from @Richard F.:
@Greg Scott, you didn't state WHAT the leak source was. It may, or may not have been preventable, impossible to tell at this moment. @Drew Sygit, this is why you need to be proactive...don't wait until an issue explodes, inspect and act preemptively.
We have the "useful life tables" to inform estimated life of each element, and of course, once you replace an element you have a definite starting point of reference. Then it becomes a question of the durability of the specific element, and the choice you make when purchasing. For example, some "hecho en Mexico" faucets realistically will only last a couple years with no parts availability, if you are lucky. While others (such as Moen) can easily last twenty years, AND be easily repairable with proven manufacturers parts support.
Of course you cannot avoid the results of misuse by Tenants, or a manufacturing defect that fails without warning, but the point is you do need to visually inspect, annually, with a good flashlight, in areas that are common sources for problems. Sink traps are notorious, as are the flex connectors. I always try to push my thumb through a metal trap to see if it is corroding from the inside. Flex lines, age and type are the key issues, I always use SS braided no-burst, and change them at 10 years or on fixture replacement.
Looking for hidden signs of water intrusion is critical. Again, a good flashlight, checking ceilings, corners, baseboards, in closets and both upper (especially those that go up to the ceiling) and lower cabinets, focusing on known areas of internal plumbing runs and actual sources such as water heaters, condensate drain lines, refer water lines, and of course steam or hot water heating systems are a constant battle.
It is always less costly to address these issues proactively, on your schedule, rather than re-actively, usually after 5 on a Friday or Holiday weekend.
Nursing an old plumbing system, aging roof, and poorly sealed windows will drain your bank account. Bite the bullet, make the big spend, solve the problem, and then perform routine preventative maintenance to extend the life of the element as much as possible. Just be sure you have addressed the root cause of the symptoms that spurred your actions.
Sounds like structured, proactive maintenance + lifecycle awareness is key.
Do you track this manually or using any system today? - Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes4mo
Quote from @Ali Asadi:
Richard, I like this approach.Quote from @Richard F.:
@Greg Scott, you didn't state WHAT the leak source was. It may, or may not have been preventable, impossible to tell at this moment. @Drew Sygit, this is why you need to be proactive...don't wait until an issue explodes, inspect and act preemptively.
We have the "useful life tables" to inform estimated life of each element, and of course, once you replace an element you have a definite starting point of reference. Then it becomes a question of the durability of the specific element, and the choice you make when purchasing. For example, some "hecho en Mexico" faucets realistically will only last a couple years with no parts availability, if you are lucky. While others (such as Moen) can easily last twenty years, AND be easily repairable with proven manufacturers parts support.
Of course you cannot avoid the results of misuse by Tenants, or a manufacturing defect that fails without warning, but the point is you do need to visually inspect, annually, with a good flashlight, in areas that are common sources for problems. Sink traps are notorious, as are the flex connectors. I always try to push my thumb through a metal trap to see if it is corroding from the inside. Flex lines, age and type are the key issues, I always use SS braided no-burst, and change them at 10 years or on fixture replacement.
Looking for hidden signs of water intrusion is critical. Again, a good flashlight, checking ceilings, corners, baseboards, in closets and both upper (especially those that go up to the ceiling) and lower cabinets, focusing on known areas of internal plumbing runs and actual sources such as water heaters, condensate drain lines, refer water lines, and of course steam or hot water heating systems are a constant battle.
It is always less costly to address these issues proactively, on your schedule, rather than re-actively, usually after 5 on a Friday or Holiday weekend.
Nursing an old plumbing system, aging roof, and poorly sealed windows will drain your bank account. Bite the bullet, make the big spend, solve the problem, and then perform routine preventative maintenance to extend the life of the element as much as possible. Just be sure you have addressed the root cause of the symptoms that spurred your actions.
Sounds like structured, proactive maintenance + lifecycle awareness is key.
Do you track this manually or using any system today?
Retired now, but the basis was just accumulated experience. And making smart use of time allotted for various types of inspections. Work in progress requires focus and photo documentation of the task(s) underway; Completion/RTR inspection focused on systematic photo documentation for future reference...separate from "marketing" photos. Everything is confirmed for proper operation and secure installations. Move in inspection was documented from the RTR images with simple "new", "OK", or "poor" ratings. Interim (or annual) inspections focused on searching out signs of water intrusion and fixture leaks, pests/rodents, door/window seals, tripping or other safety hazards and Tenant damages, and brief exterior exploration of roof, siding, landscape issues such as conditions of mature trees and proper clearance from structure. Move out inspections focus on tenant damages and comparing conditions with move in. Full visibility of vacant unit provides additional access for full systems re-inspection and assessment. - 4moDrew SygitBusiness MemberProperty Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
Quote from @Richard F.:
@Greg Scott, you didn't state WHAT the leak source was. It may, or may not have been preventable, impossible to tell at this moment. @Drew Sygit, this is why you need to be proactive...don't wait until an issue explodes, inspect and act preemptively.
We have the "useful life tables" to inform estimated life of each element, and of course, once you replace an element you have a definite starting point of reference. Then it becomes a question of the durability of the specific element, and the choice you make when purchasing. For example, some "hecho en Mexico" faucets realistically will only last a couple years with no parts availability, if you are lucky. While others (such as Moen) can easily last twenty years, AND be easily repairable with proven manufacturers parts support.
Of course you cannot avoid the results of misuse by Tenants, or a manufacturing defect that fails without warning, but the point is you do need to visually inspect, annually, with a good flashlight, in areas that are common sources for problems. Sink traps are notorious, as are the flex connectors. I always try to push my thumb through a metal trap to see if it is corroding from the inside. Flex lines, age and type are the key issues, I always use SS braided no-burst, and change them at 10 years or on fixture replacement.
Looking for hidden signs of water intrusion is critical. Again, a good flashlight, checking ceilings, corners, baseboards, in closets and both upper (especially those that go up to the ceiling) and lower cabinets, focusing on known areas of internal plumbing runs and actual sources such as water heaters, condensate drain lines, refer water lines, and of course steam or hot water heating systems are a constant battle.
It is always less costly to address these issues proactively, on your schedule, rather than re-actively, usually after 5 on a Friday or Holiday weekend.
Nursing an old plumbing system, aging roof, and poorly sealed windows will drain your bank account. Bite the bullet, make the big spend, solve the problem, and then perform routine preventative maintenance to extend the life of the element as much as possible. Just be sure you have addressed the root cause of the symptoms that spurred your actions.
I'm well aware of life cycles.
What I'm referring to are tenant-caused issues they don't report - like they threw something under the sink and it caused the drain to become misaligned and start leaking.
If they don't report it, when's it going to be noticed to repair it and stop the cabinet and floor from rotting out?
So, how often can you reasonably inspect to catch issues like this?
FYI - I've beta'd a couple of software programs trying to monitor & predict system life cycles. They all still need a LOT of development to be actually useful for anything beyond big-ticket items. Rently is also working on something to boost their revenues.
Logical Property Management4.9450 Reviews - 4moGreg ScottPro MemberRental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
@Richard F. The source if the leak was (and still is) irrelevant to the story.
I don't know any owner that is going to replace their entire plumbing system because it reaches some date on a "useful life table". BTW, this is a 277-unit apartment complex, so you would be looking at a multi-million dollar replacement cost. At this point in time, repairing the infrequent leak is much more cost effective.
- Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes4mo
Quote from @Greg Scott:
@Richard F. The source if the leak was (and still is) irrelevant to the story.
I don't know any owner that is going to replace their entire plumbing system because it reaches some date on a "useful life table". BTW, this is a 277-unit apartment complex, so you would be looking at a multi-million dollar replacement cost. At this point in time, repairing the infrequent leak is much more cost effective.
To say the cause of the leak was irrelevant is a cop out. I asked a legit question. Was it a cast iron waste line that developed a hairline crack along the length due to age and scaling: or improper use of "hot" chemical drain cleaners; or deteriorated threads on the iron pipe nipple the trap assembly is connected to; a cheap plastic stop valve that failed; disposer rusted out; or intrusion from a roof leak that made it's way to a lower area before becoming apparent?
If you are using cheap HD flex trap assemblies connected to a tailpiece that is too short with flimsy plastic nuts, you are asking for a careless Tenant to knock a connection loose. Instead use a heavy gauge metal assembly of proper size and alignment or hard ABS assembly.
Are ALL leaks preventable? NO, of course not, but the simple act of observing, combined with a modicum of knowledge, common sense, reasonable preventative maintenance procedures and timely replacement, can certainly "prevent" a large percentage of leaks.
Just my opinion, but I don't think there are a lot of large apartment complex owners on these forums. BUT, it is actually fairly common, and financially wise, for our older (70's, 80's) high rise buildings of 50 to 500 or more units, to perform a complete repipe, while entirely occupied, due to age PLUS increased frequency of damages/insurance claims.
Even in smaller walkup buildings, there comes a time when the leaks become too frequent, too disruptive for occupants, and insurance cost for the building rise...or sometimes go to zero when you get cancelled. I had a case where the stingy owner refused to accept the facts that when I tallied up plumbing repairs for their 18 unit building over the prior 5 years, they were spending over $300 per door, per month on average. Over the next 3 years that tripled in the form of emergency multi-unit repipes, one or two stacks at a time as they erupted. Stupid expenditures that could have been greatly reduced had they followed my advice. - 4moGreg ScottPro MemberRental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
@Richard F. I am currently an owner/ manager for 831 units built in the 1970s. Our properties have won awards for resident satisfaction because they are well maintained, and our investors have been very happy with their returns. I have some experience in managing older buildings.
This property has copper plumbing, PVC drain lines, zero flexihose. We conduct PM every 6 months. There was zero leaking last round of PM. So, as I said, the source of the leak was irrelevant to my story. The point was that this is not a laboratory setting and people are often the weak link. In this case, the resident never reported the leak that had been going on for weeks.
- Real Estate Agent · Memphis · Member since 2026 · 535 posts · 310 votes4mo
I’d lean toward not enough clarity — the data is usually there, but it’s not structured in a way that actually drives decisions.
Most systems are good at tracking activity, like rent payments, maintenance tickets, and reports, but they don’t surface patterns early enough to act on them. So everything looks fine on the surface until you start seeing the outcomes — late payments stacking, maintenance turning reactive, or turnover creeping up.
The difference I’ve seen isn’t more data, it’s having a few consistent signals you actually pay attention to over time, like payment trends, maintenance frequency, and how quickly issues are resolved versus escalated. Without that layer, you end up reacting to events instead of managing ahead of them.
- Real Estate Consultant · Los Angeles · Member since 2026 · 48 posts · 10 votes4mo
Appreciate all the perspectives here — especially around predictability vs. noise.
I’m not thinking in terms of predicting specific failures.
More about surfacing patterns that may indicate where risk is building — even if they don’t point to a specific event.For example:
- Delays in resolving maintenance
- Gaps in reporting
- Accumulation of small, unresolved issues
Individually, they don’t mean much.
But over time, they tend to correlate with higher costs and reactive decisions.I actually put together a very simple free 2-minute check around this idea — not predictive, just directional visibility:
https://portfolioriskcheck.com/
Curious if it aligns with how you’re thinking about this, or if it feels off.
- Member since 2026 · 3 posts · 0 votes4mo
Great observation Ali. In my experience the clarity problem hits hardest on the financial operations side. A PM can have perfect rent rolls and maintenance logs, but the moment you try to reconcile a lump Airbnb or VRBO deposit against 15 different owner ledgers, you're back in spreadsheet hell. The data exists in the OTA export, the data exists in the PM software, but connecting the two in a way that's auditable and fast? Most managers I've talked to spend 15-20 hours a month just on that reconciliation step. The ones who get ahead of it usually build some kind of standardized mapping between their booking data and their owner splits, so each deposit gets broken down automatically instead of manually. Curious if anyone here has found a good system for the financial reconciliation side specifically, or if most people are still doing it by hand.
- Member since 2026 · 3 posts · 0 votes4mo
Strong agree. From conversations with PM operators, the data exists but it's locked in too many places. Rent rolls in one system, trust account in the bank portal, OTA payouts in Airbnb/Vrbo dashboards, owner statements in spreadsheets. By the time someone reconciles a month, the small problems have already snowballed. Anecdotally I've heard a meaningful share of PMs catch material trust account ledger errors each year, and it's almost always because no one has a single view, not because the data was missing. So you might frame it more as a synthesis problem than a data problem.
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