Am I the mean landlord?

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Am I the mean landlord?

Max T.
Investor 路 Philadelphia, PA 路 Member since 2015 路 3k+ posts 路 3k+ votes

First situation: Apartment was advertised at $1400 for a 2 bed/1 bath house. Prospective tenants had 2 pets and we agreed to increase rent to $1430 (15/pet). Lease was written up with the 2 pets allowed and the rent set at $1430. Fast forward a few months. Tenants are a little sloppy but no problems and they pay on time. Tenants gave one of the pets away to a friend and want to reduce the rent by $15. I decline, saying changes to the lease can be discussed at renewal time.

2nd situation: Same tenants/house. One is out of town for the Thanksgiving holiday. The other locks herself out. I come by to open up and charge the lock out fee ($25, as set in the lease).

Am I the mean landlord? My parents would probably be telling me to waive the $15/month and not to charge for opening up. They would advise this on the grounds that I'm more likely to keep the tenants long term. Many on BP who hold firm on the "run it like a business" mentality will tell me I'm doing it right.

I'm looking for the overall consensus here. What do you think? 

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Jeff Rabinowitz
Investor/Landlord 路 Farmington Hills, MI 路 Member since 2011 路 1k+ posts 路 1k+ votes
10y

You charge a $25 lock out fee and are willing to go to the house yourself for that? I believe it specifies $100 in my lease. I am not sure because in 12 years of leasing 12 houses this has never happened to my tenants. I would not even consider going to the house to unlock it if the tenant locked themselves out. I would give them the phone number for my locksmith who has the codes for all my keys. The locksmith would charge about $100. If the tenant didn't pay him directly I would pay him bill the tenants for the service. If they locked themselves out after hours or on a holiday they can check into a motel until the locksmith can get there or their partner comes back with the key. I am a landlord not a babysitter.

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  • John Thedford
    Real Estate Broker 路 Naples, FL 路 Member since 2013 路 9k+ posts 路 6k+ votes
    10y

    I would not reduce the monthly rental. I probably would not charge a lock out fee but encourage them to hide a spare in case they do it again.

    1Reply
  • Elizabeth Colegrove
    Hanford, CA 路 Member since 2013 路 5k+ posts 路 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Max T.:

    First situation: Apartment was advertised at $1400 for a 2 bed/1 bath house. Prospective tenants had 2 pets and we agreed to increase rent to $1430 (15/pet). Lease was written up with the 2 pets allowed and the rent set at $1430. Fast forward a few months. Tenants are a little sloppy but no problems and they pay on time. Tenants gave one of the pets away to a friend and want to reduce the rent by $15. I decline, saying changes to the lease can be discussed at renewal time.

    2nd situation: Same tenants/house. One is out of town for the Thanksgiving holiday. The other locks herself out. I come by to open up and charge the lock out fee ($25, as set in the lease).

    Am I the mean landlord? My parents would probably be telling me to waive the $15/month and not to charge for opening up. They would advise this on the grounds that I'm more likely to keep the tenants long term. Many on BP who hold firm on the "run it like a business" mentality will tell me I'm doing it right.

    I'm looking for the overall consensus here. What do you think? 

    First off you will NEVER get a consensus here! 

    That being said I am a very very very jaded and MEAN landlord. So I will vote that you did everything right and I would have done it too :)

     I follow my 16 page lease exactly. For a few reasons. 

    A) it prevents issues again favoritism and therefore violations of favoritism. 

    B) it EVERY time I violate my lease to be nice it bites me in the TUSH, a centimeter becomes THREE miles. If I hold too it exactly it becomes no stress.

    C) Once you waive some stuff, it becomes harder to enforce other items. It also makes the expectation that you will work with them so when you don't, you area mean.

    D) If I have to follow the lease, so do you :)

    Lets just say I am VERY passionate about my lease being my key to tenant management. So I am very jaded on this subject. Here is 2 articles I have written for BP on this subject. 

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2015/11/2...

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2015/10/1...

    Good luck!

    5Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor 路 Kansas City, MO 路 Member since 2010 路 239 posts 路 110 votes
    10y

    @Max T.  I completely agree with @Elizabeth Colegrove 's points. If you deviate from the written word you'll potentially find yourself in sticky situations later. 

    I always disagree with the mean landlord label. I didn't force anyone to sign the lease. He or she did so and therefore we are just going off the written word.

    Good luck!

    4Reply
  • Michael Boyer
    Investor 路 Juneau, AK 路 Member since 2015 路 980 posts 路 741 votes
    10y

    great part of this business, max, is that you are the boss and get to have your policy...I favor tenant satisfaction for long term renewals, like your folks, but you have to set limits, like I would not yo yo the lease amount  because they may well get a new pet and that rate was for the wear and tear of the one that lived there....I do one free lockout, mostly so they will not try to break in but then charge your same fee after that...

    you have to do what works for you more so than worrying about being mean or nice...you allow pets and actually show up to let them in, so you are ahead of the curve on accommodating people in my book......best of luck 

    5Reply
  • Chris Sukala
    Rockford, IL 路 Member since 2015 路 343 posts 路 95 votes
    10y
    I think you did everything right. Not sure about the charging for unlocking the door for them but if you have in your lease go by that. We had a situation where we rented to a friend had her sign it, we went through everything. Well she was late one month then 2 months. Now she is out owes me 2000 and I am the bad guy. Because we waived the late fee and said pay when you can. We now are burned. She still claims she will pay. One of our current tenants if the 1st of the month does not fall on a Friday or day or 2 after they are late. They pay all fees. A friend of mine said I am mean and I should change the rent date knowing they are going to be late. I told him no because it will start the whole issue again. Bottom line you did the right thing per your lease agreement. They signed it they know about it.
    1Reply
  • Andy Luick
    Real Estate Investor 路 atlanta, GA 路 Member since 2013 路 456 posts 路 237 votes
    10y

    To be a landlord, you have to be 10% jerkoff or it will never work well for you.  Tenant chose to get rid of one cat....you waive it, then they get another cat.  Most landlords want even rent to someone with cats for a variety of reasons....so they are lucky to even have the place.  Once a cat pees on a spot....every animal thereafter will want to do the same thing and, if it gets to the subfloor, you'll never get the smell out.  I wouldn't reduce the rent and I'd usually be charging more for the privilege.  On pets, we usually do a non-refundable deposit.  We have had some issues recently where there wasn't a flea problem until after the renter moved out and the treated fluffy wasn't there any longer to keep the fleas from reproducing.  That gets expensive and the renter is already gone.

    On lockouts, I usually don't charge.....at least if I am somewhat in the area.  It's just good tenant relations and fortunately doesn't happen that often with me.  If it becomes a pattern then I would enforce the charge.  It's a ton cheaper to keep existing tenants then to get new ones.  It's a little different with shared housing but the principles are the same...respect goes a long way with most renters....not all.  I don't enforce the late fee provision of our lease typically...until I get to an eviction, which is rare....or there is a pattern of abuse with it.  I just want them to pay the rents and am trying to switch as many as I can to online payments.

    Be business friendly with you renters.....just like here...there are some you absolutely no use for but be friendly enough without becoming friends.  A good lease is really only there to safeguard you against the worst renter possible....you don't have to enforce it but always be prepared to.

    2Reply
  • Max T.
    OP
    Investor 路 Philadelphia, PA 路 Member since 2015 路 3k+ posts 路 3k+ votes
    10y

    I think I will waive the lock out charge since this is the first time. I won't tell her until we meet so it will feel like a gift!

    4Reply
  • Matt Ryan
    Investor 路 Westerville, OH 路 Member since 2013 路 16 posts 路 12 votes
    10y
    I won't charge my lockout charge on the first instance, unless it's a total inconvenience to me (holiday, late night, etc.), but I make sure they know they will be charged the next time. As for changing the lease, that's something we revisit at renewal - unless you'd rather they only have one pet. They may decide to get another pet if they are already paying for it. It may be worth it in the long run to collect less pet rent and save some potential damage to the property.
    2Reply
  • Cliff Harrison
    Rental Property Investor 路 Shawnee Mission, KS 路 Member since 2014 路 205 posts 路 136 votes
    10y

    I would be happy they got rid of a pet and reduce the rent by the $15, under the stipulation that they can't add another pet.  While I understand those that enforce the signed lease to the letter and I think that is almost always the best policy, in this case you are legally taking advantage of a situation at the tenants expense, unless they get another pet.  I don't see it as a gateway situation, like waiving late fees or absorbing damages caused by tenant actions.

    Hopefully over time making decisions considering fairness to the tenant will get you a higher percentage of renewals.  Even if not, you won't have to worry if your tenants are thinking 'enjoy my $15 you greedy skinflint' when they pay the rent.  If they had the remaining pet run over by a car tomorrow, you could still collect the pet rent but would you want to?  

    Overall I would not turn off my moral compass in order to adhere to the lease 100% in this case.

    3Reply
  • Account Closed
    Contractor 路 Raleigh, NC 路 Member since 2014 路 651 posts 路 510 votes
    10y

    @Elizabeth Colegrove is right: you will never get consensus here!

    I would not decrease the rent for the feline decrease because they chose to give the cat away. If it had gotten hit by a car, I might because I'm a softie (just kidding).

    I would not charge to unlock their door but then again: that's not in my lease. 

    It's nice to be flexible at times (especially with a long-term good tenant) but you really can't go wrong by just following the lease.  

    2Reply
  • Joe Calderon
    Miami, FL 路 Member since 2015 路 92 posts 路 24 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Max T.:

    I think I will waive the lock out charge since this is the first time. I won't tell her until we meet so it will feel like a gift!

    Are you also going to waive the late fees when they don't pay rent on time for the first time?

    2Reply
  • Dan Perrott
    Rental Property Investor 路 Indianapolis, IN 路 Member since 2014 路 354 posts 路 167 votes
    10y

    @Max T.

    If the lease is written as 15 per pet added to the lease amount (written not verbal), the I think you may have to reduce the rent.

    If it is written in the lease to charge the lockout fee, then you should stick to your lease.  

    This is not mean, this is what you agreed to by signing the legal document.  Its not that big of a deal - because you agreed to this prior to the tenant being locked out.

    You are not being mean, you are running a business.  Good luck.

    2Reply
  • Mary B.
    Real Estate Investor 路 Lansdowne, PA 路 Member since 2013 路 1k+ posts 路 656 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Max T.:

    First situation: Apartment was advertised at $1400 for a 2 bed/1 bath house. Prospective tenants had 2 pets and we agreed to increase rent to $1430 (15/pet). Lease was written up with the 2 pets allowed and the rent set at $1430. Fast forward a few months. Tenants are a little sloppy but no problems and they pay on time. Tenants gave one of the pets away to a friend and want to reduce the rent by $15. I decline, saying changes to the lease can be discussed at renewal time.

    2nd situation: Same tenants/house. One is out of town for the Thanksgiving holiday. The other locks herself out. I come by to open up and charge the lock out fee ($25, as set in the lease).

    Am I the mean landlord? My parents would probably be telling me to waive the $15/month and not to charge for opening up. They would advise this on the grounds that I'm more likely to keep the tenants long term. Many on BP who hold firm on the "run it like a business" mentality will tell me I'm doing it right.

    I'm looking for the overall consensus here. What do you think? 

    They're sloppy but pay on time. Well I say keep the rent as is because you and I know that those pets have marked territory in one or more spots in that house. Nothing about this post sounds unethical, imo. Maybe waive the lock change fee. Why didn't you have a copy of the key? Maybe having a copy as landlord will devoid any need to charge a lock changing fee in the future. 

    Kudos,

    Mary 

    0Reply
  • Steven J.
    Urbana, IL 路 Member since 2012 路 1k+ posts 路 425 votes
    10y

    I can't remember which podcast it was, it may have been the one with Ken McElroy, where the speaker discussed how they approached PM as the one person that is on the tenants side. The tenant has no one on their side; the govt, the property owner, the neighbors or next door tenants, are all people who can impact the place they call home. If you, as PM, change your mindset to being the person who is going to side with the tenant they will appreciate you more than the stickler landlord. This doesn't mean you bend over backwards but that you act as a negotiator between the tenant and the other party whether it be code enforcement, the property owner, or a neighbor. Obviously, some issues you cannot negotiate on, such as being ordered to clean up a yard by code enforcement, but you can share with the tenant what you are doing to help them out. I'm no expert at it yet, but I'm really starting to feel that them feeling as though you are on their side rather than out to get them really encourages them to meet your demands. 

    Its a much more delicate approach to enforcing that requires a change in mindset. So far, I've found it to be quite helpful and when you do have to whip out mean stickler land lord they REALLY get the message. 

    1Reply
  • Steve B.
    Engineer 路 Portland, OR 路 Member since 2014 路 1k+ posts 路 1k+ votes
    10y
    I'm tempted to report you to the fair housing authority for multiple egregious acts of cruelty
    2Reply
  • Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker 路 Raleigh, NC 路 Member since 2014 路 2k+ posts 路 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Max T. As stated before, you can't go wrong if you just continue following the lease.  I don't have a lockout fee in my lease, so I wouldn't be charging for that, but since you do, I think you should.  If you don't charge for things you said you would, it makes it hard to enforce the lease when you do want to charge for something later.  

    Podcast Guest on Show #101
    2Reply
  • Bill ThompsonPro Member
    Rental Property Investor 路 Jamaica Plain, MA 路 Member since 2015 路 60 posts 路 88 votes
    10y

    I think your charges are reasonable... but hey, I'm an investor.  Your tenants probably think you're a "big meanie"!  Don't expect them to cut you any slack if something goes wrong on your end lol.

    2Reply
  • Adrian Mata
    Lacey, WA 路 Member since 2011 路 48 posts 路 8 votes
    10y

    You don't sound mean to me. Don't go lax on rules. It an set a bad precedent. The only thing I would do is not charge them for the lockout.

    1Reply
  • Jeff Rabinowitz
    Investor/Landlord 路 Farmington Hills, MI 路 Member since 2011 路 1k+ posts 路 1k+ votes
    10y

    You charge a $25 lock out fee and are willing to go to the house yourself for that? I believe it specifies $100 in my lease. I am not sure because in 12 years of leasing 12 houses this has never happened to my tenants. I would not even consider going to the house to unlock it if the tenant locked themselves out. I would give them the phone number for my locksmith who has the codes for all my keys. The locksmith would charge about $100. If the tenant didn't pay him directly I would pay him bill the tenants for the service. If they locked themselves out after hours or on a holiday they can check into a motel until the locksmith can get there or their partner comes back with the key. I am a landlord not a babysitter.

    6Reply
  • Joe Fairless
    Investor 路 Cincinnati, OH 路 Member since 2013 路 2k+ posts 路 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Max T.I'd go by the lease. Plain and simple. 

    1Reply
  • Jimmy Cantave
    Investor 路 Miami, FL 路 Member since 2014 路 82 posts 路 19 votes
    10y

    @Max T. I wouldn't Change what's on the lease because who could have say that the tenant might end up bring  another pet on board.. And with being the spare lock smith guy I think you should waive the fee..if they do it again then charge them like a business suppose to!!! 馃憤馃徔馃槑

    2Reply
  • Franklin Romine
    Visalia-Fresno, CA 路 Member since 2009 路 1k+ posts 路 863 votes
    10y

    I would reduce the rent and waive the fee for unlocking the house.  I look at it as we are in a service business. We are dealing with people that have a conscious.  Keep a good vibe and your success rate will go up.  Be firm but but fair and manage the emotions.

    Frank  

    2Reply
  • David Dachtera
    Rental Property Investor 路 Rockford, IL 路 Member since 2014 路 4k+ posts 路 2k+ votes
    10y

    I'd be with @Elizabeth Colegrove on this, @Max T..

    Be like a parent: be consistent. Let the lease set the terms - that's why its there.

    1Reply
  • Marci Stein
    Rental Property Investor 路 New York, NY 路 Member since 2011 路 956 posts 路 510 votes
    10y

    I would not charge pet fee if they have no pets.

    1Reply
  • Jason Eyerly
    Real Estate Agent 路 Charleston, SC 路 Member since 2013 路 424 posts 路 99 votes
    10y

    Charging for something they do not have sounds like a bad situation from the get go, and surely not one I would want to bring in front of a judge. I would probably unlock the house free this time, and charge next time. I'm sure you can add into your lease from this point forward "may charge a lockout fee not to exceed $25 at landlords discretion on a case by case basis." 

    I'm pretty sure you can draft an addendum to the lease as well specifying the new rent and that the property is not to be inhabited by more than one CAT from this point forward, and that all other terms and conditions are subject to the original lease. I would think. I'm not a pro on that. Maybe one will chime in. @Tiger M.

    1Reply
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