Oakland, CA · Member since 2015 · 246 posts · 127 votes
Hey guys,
I'm in the process of renovating my rental unit. It's a 4bd/2 bath split level in North Oakland. The kitchen is pretty small, but I'm trying to avoid any structural changes since it's a rental (I won't be living there). I won't blowing out walls to make it larger.
Here's a preliminary layout of the proposed kitchen. The sink cabinet will need to stay, since it's under the window. My main issue is that the dishwasher isn't close to the sink. I can move it to the 24" box left of the sink, but it will feel pretty congested w/ appliances. I'm afraid I won't be able to access the oven if the dishwasher door is open, and vice versa. Leaving the DW where it is feels like there's more room to operate.
What do you think? Any helpful advice? The model is to scale.
@Zach Romashko FYI, door swings can be changed on refrigerators. I see a lot of people are agreeing with the line of site, one thing to remember in a kitchen is functionality, have your tenants use the beginning layout and see how fast your doors and draws get messed up, they wont look new after a year. plus you are gaining another foot of counter space with my layout and it is easier to work around in the kitchen. besides, this is a rental.
and NO i am not offended by the opinions, just pointing out things to consider when laying out a kitchen, what ever you decide to do, i'm sure it will look nice.
I agree with Sean- draining that dishwasher if it's not next ot the sink will be a nightmare. And having it next to the sink makes it much easier to load also, but having the dishwasher and oven doors colliding would drive me batty, even if I didn't live there.
If possible- could you move the fridge over to the left side of the kitchen, and then put the dishwasher to the right of the sink? This will give you a little bit of counter space between the stove and fridge, plus counter space on each side of the sink. It's actually really close to the layout of my own kitchen that way, except we've got a little more space here.
In option B will the dishwasher open without the door banging into the stove or stove handles (the lower ones anyway)
Might need some fillers in there if you go with that option to give enough clearance for the dish washer door to drop down.
Personally I would not like the sink beside the fridge. But that just my opinion. Corner sink not an option ? and push the DW few feet right and stove a foot or so left.
switch the refrigerator to the other side, put a 9" cabinet between the stove and the frig and the dishwasher where the frig is now. this side will be 6" shorter, you could put a 42" sink base or just leave it short.
@Patrick Liska - If I move the fridge to the other side and place a 9" cab between the stove and fridge, the folks in the living room will be staring at the side of the refrigerator. The kitchen opens up to the living space. I'm not sure it's a good look if the side of the fridge is exposed...
@Ronan M. - Unfortunately, I don't think the sink should move - it's right under a window.
Maybe I can keep the B layout and get a compact 18" dishwasher? Downside is the smaller capacity and they're twice as much. Not sure it's worth it for a rental... (or is it?)
How about this? I moved the stove further down so it wouldn't get in the way of the dishwasher opening. I also selected an 18" dishwasher instead of a 24", so it's more narrow and bang into the drawer handles as it opens.
Do you guys see any issues here? Does it make more sense to get fewer big cabinets, or more small ones to fill space? For example, does it make more sense to get (1) 30" cab or (2) 15" cabs?
Put an end panel on the refrigerator in my example, you will need one next to the dishwasher too. as far as size of the cabinets, if its cheaper to put in (1) 30" vs (2) 15, then put in the 30", price out the difference. your new layout is ok but will be a pain for the tenant trying to put stuff from the dishwasher into the draw base.
It looks like you might benefit from having a few extra inches to work with here. For your farm sink, traditionally you need a 39" cabinet to fit a 36" sink. You need a cabinet that is wider than the sink.
Check out the Kohler Whitehaven tall apron sink. 1) a 36" sink fits a 36" cabinet. 2) It is sel;f rimming which mean you do not need to be a master carpenter to nicely cut the sink into the cabinet.
You would have to be very careful with your measuring but this reclaimed 3" could allow you to put a standard 24" dishwasher to the left of the sink. 18" are the same or more expensive as a 24". Then you can install a 36/39 blind corner between the dishwasher and stove.
Whomever sells you the kitchen needs to look up the specs on the dishwasher and stove used as well as the specific blind corner. They can all vary in and out of the needed dimensions from manufacturer to manufacturer.
Only reason I don't like the fridge there is because of this view from the living room. I don't like staring at the side of a fridge from the living room.
Yes, that's what i was thinking, you can get a 3/4" end panel to cover the side of the refrigerator. it comes in 3/4" x 24" x 84". if you look at the design, non of the appliances will interfere with the others or with cabinets.
Thanks for the suggestion, Patrick. Definitely no appliances bump into each other. I'm just a bit unsure about how the fridge cuts off the line of sight to the back of the kitchen. It's small kitchen, so not having this open site line might make it look even smaller?
I could definitely use a few extra inches. The sink is just a placeholder at the moment. Maybe I can make the sink cabinet 30" to make room for a full sized dishwasher? Not sure what's the priority - full sized dishwasher or a full sized kitchen sink.
Few comments :
You can get a counter depth fridge. Slightly more costly than standard depth.
Generally dishwasher just goes in a 24 inch cavity created by two other boxes or a filler strip if against a wall.
I don't like otr microwave fan combo units. We had a rental and it broke and was replaced twice. Hard to install and impossible to repair.
Over the fridge cabinets tend to be extra deep otherwise they cannot be reached and are very non functional. In combination with a 24 inch gable piece or a framed and Drywalled return you'd cover much of your fridge.
I use less boxes because my installer charges by the box and my fabricator charges by the box as well.
I only use undermount sinks because they work well with quartz or granite counters and can be bought for less than 150$.
I don't design my own kitchens. This is a designers job. My designer would do a better kitchen than this in 1-2 hours than I could so it is well spent money.
I posted a blog on bigger pockets kitchen concept design to completion. Could check that out for more detail.
How about this? I moved the stove further down so it wouldn't get in the way of the dishwasher opening. I also selected an 18" dishwasher instead of a 24", so it's more narrow and bang into the drawer handles as it opens.
Do you guys see any issues here? Does it make more sense to get fewer big cabinets, or more small ones to fill space? For example, does it make more sense to get (1) 30" cab or (2) 15" cabs?
This is exactly where my thought process was going as I was reading the prior posts. Without adding an island, this probably is your best option given the window location. I might even move the stove over a bit more to place more space between appliances...swap the 30" and 24." Although it would be ideal to have the fridge farther from the sink, I agree that viewing the side from the living room may make the space seem smaller.
@Calvin Kwan At first I thought that the fridge would be better on the left side of the stove just because functionality of the kitchen would be better to not have the fridge next to the sink. but after looking at it, I think you're right. With the fridge blocking your line of sight, the kitchen seems much smaller. The other thing I was thinking is the door on the fridge opens the wrong way and would be really annoying if your were cooking on the stove and had to walk around the door to get something out of the fridge.
Personally, I would go with the second drawing, with the stove moved down just a little bit. But at the end of the day do what you feel is best for your rental.
Also, these drawings are an awesome way to design a kitchen, Thank you for sharing this with us!
@Zach Romashko FYI, door swings can be changed on refrigerators. I see a lot of people are agreeing with the line of site, one thing to remember in a kitchen is functionality, have your tenants use the beginning layout and see how fast your doors and draws get messed up, they wont look new after a year. plus you are gaining another foot of counter space with my layout and it is easier to work around in the kitchen. besides, this is a rental.
and NO i am not offended by the opinions, just pointing out things to consider when laying out a kitchen, what ever you decide to do, i'm sure it will look nice.
I have probably missed something here because the answers all seem more complicated than they need be if I understood correctly. For one, I thought that 'Option A' was the way the kitchen was configured NOW and that you were hoping not to do too much moving around. For two, I thought your main concerns were 1) that you were worried that the dishwasher might be too far from the sink in Option A and 2) that you were worried about not being able to simultaneously access the stove and dishwasher with Option B. IF those are, in fact, the issues, then this is what I would advise: Move the stove/microwave/fan and above cabinet to where your dishwasher is in your Option A. Move your 24" base and upper to where the stove was. Put the dishwasher beside the sink.
The complicating factors I can see from that plan are: 1) the cord for the stove may not reach - that's unlikely but.... 2) venting for the fan would have to be rerouted. 3) The dishwasher might not FIT beside the sink and still open. It might need an inch or so clearance that your 24" base cabinet isn't giving you. In that case, I'd first try to add a little filler and move the sink cabinet and fridge down an inch or,, if worst comes to worst and there's not an inch beside your fridge, you might need to get a smaller sink cabinet. It's easy to find a smaller sink and maybe even a sink cabinet at a used building supply place like Restore (Habitat for Humanity store), although it probably won't be a farm sink (I DO find some pretty nice sinks there though). Having the dishwasher beside the sink is a much higher priority than a farm sink (although you want to stick to a smaller double sink ideally). If the dishwasher has enough clearance to open once the stove has been switched over 24" though, you'll probably be able to keep everything else as is. Seeing as you have no counterspace between the sink and fridge (can't be helped), the additional space between the sink and the stove will be welcome. The counterspace on the left of the stove is not as functional as the same counterspace on the right of the stove would be, being closer to the sink.
It's probably more convoluted than that, but that's as complicated as I can make it.
Good luck with it all. You seem to have good instincts so I think you'll work it out for the best. Good work with Google Sketchup by the way. I'm totally going to try it out. Thanks
Maybe you should rethink the farm sink if you're not attached to it because it's really taking up a lot of space. Also if you need more cabinet and counter space see how it looks with an apartment size dish washer and taller slimmer fridge. I would suggest getting a stainless steel movable 2 tiered with butcher block or keep it plain stainless. That way you could have more prep and storage without taking up much rom in that small kitchen.
You have to first decide on where it should reside in your kitchen, where you will be standing while working at the kitchen sink, what other appliances or elements should be near. It is always advisable not to turn your back on your guests, as far as possible. If you don’t want to keep the sink where it is, do yourself a favor by giving a nice view.
The main advantage of having your dishwasher and sink next to each other is that loading the dishwasher would be easier and efficient. Moreover you can just scrape or rinse off your plates in the sink before setting them in the dishwasher. Similarly, kitchen remodeling services suggest that it will be easier emptying the dishwasher and dumping any water pooled on your dishes.
Having dishwasher on one side of the sink and a pullout trash on the other side makes kitchen would make kitchen cleanup easier. Remember you may require a pretty long bank of cabinets to make it fit because you need 24 inches for a standard size dishwasher. If possible or if your budget allows provide for a buffer cabinet on the outside edges of the dishwasher, so he doors can open without running into perpendicular cabinet or wall.
Are you planning of kitchen island, if so you can put a sink preferably there. This would give an efficient work space. Your family can gather around the island while you are busy with prep or clean up at the sink.
All the best with your kitchen modelling. Would like to hear more from you. Best wishes.
Thanks for all the feedback! I wound up ordering my cabinets and adding a peninsula for additional counter space. I realized that my unit is a 4 bdr, so extra counter space will be necessary. Here's the final design.
I like that you chose the 24 inch dishwasher, it is the right size for a four bedroom house. I would comment that if the fridge is next to a wall make sure it isn't too big and has clearance and the fridge door I would swing the other way, for pulling out the veggie drawers. I would have done an island but your setup keeps the non-cooks out of the kitchen.