Property Manager · Lakewood, OH · Member since 2015 · 250 posts · 258 votes
So let me preface this with, I go waaaaaaay out of my way to provide the best life and apartments I can for my tenants. I would argue that any property owner, regardless how big or small they are, could compete with the level of care I give my tenants.
I follow the laws and go well beyond what my responsibilities are as a landlord, mainly because, I love taking care of people and making their lives better while they’re in my buildings.
Alright, that all said, I have to know. Has anyone else actively refused to rent to a lawyer?
I’ve had more than one lawyer come to me to rent. Now luckily other qualified tenants appeared before them and I had valid options before they came along, so I was never put in a position to deny them solely on their profession. HOWEVER, I’d be lying if I said I wanted to rent to them. I've had my fair share of time dealing with people in the legal system as I was a MP in the Army for some years. I don't want to get into a legal pissing contest with a tenant so I'd prefer not rent to someone who's dangerous.
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
8y
@Anthony R. I do not rent to attorneys. They are not a protected class so there is no legal risk of denying them outright. You can do the same for people with facial tattoos, smokers, people that drive a Miata, and professional clowns.
I have had terrible experience with attorneys, as renters and Landlords. The last attorney to rent from me was always late with rent and extremely arrogant about it. I filed at least six 3-day Notices on him and started the eviction four months in a row. Each time, he paid the rent right before the court date and then did it again the next month. He also sent me a two-page document full of legalese, arguing that I had no authority to collect rent. I sent him a two-line response that basically said he signed a contract and would abide by it or he could choose to impress the judge with his $5 legal jargon.
I have my issues documented. If another attorney comes along, I will probably deny them. If they demand to know why, I'm happy to show documentation of the troubles I've had.
So what ended up happening with this lawyer tenant?
Originally posted by @Nathan G.:
@Patrick M. you are wrong. I rented a single-family home to an attorney with great credit, income was 6x the rent, and his Landlord reference was excellent. On my scale of 1-30 he scored a 28. So everything looks good according to an objective screening process and he was a pretty good tenant for the first nine months or so. Then he started running late, three months in a row and was fighting me about late fees, 3-day Pay or Quit Notices, etc. He was 15 days late on the third month so I sent him our printed policy regarding rent payments, late fees, etc. This was his response:
Dear Nathan:
Thank you for your recent correspondence. You have contacted me on several occasions to collect an outstanding debt you claim is owed. I am contacting you to formally request validation of the alleged debt concerning this account and to inform you that I hereby dispute the validity of this debt.
I am also requesting you provide documentation showing I am, and should be, the party responsible for paying for improvements made to the property I rent. As you recall, I spent $1,130.00 for the removal of the tree, stump, petrified wood, installation of more gravel and labor associated therewith. See attached Invoice.
Through this letter, I hereby request proof that I am indeed the party you are asking to pay this alleged debt, and for proof that there is a binding contractual obligation to pay this alleged debt. Please provide adequate validation of this alleged debt, including but not limited to documentation of:
Complete payment history, the requirement of which has been established via Spears v. Brennan, 745 N.E. 2d 862 (Ind. Ct. App. 2001);
The agreement bearing the signature of me, wherein I agreed to pay;
The letter of sale or assignment from the original creditor to your company. (Agreement with your client that grants you the authority to collect on this alleged debt.) Coppola v. Arrow Financial Services, 2002 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 26788 (D. Conn. 2002) - Information relating to the purchase of a bad debt is neither proprietary nor burdensome. Debtor must clearly phrase their request to obtain: the source of a debt and the amount a bad debt buyer paid for plaintiff’s debt; how amount sought was calculated; where in issue a list of reports to credit bureaus; and documents conferring authority on third party to collect debt.
Documentation of the creation of the debt with your collection agency.
Under FDCPA Section 809 (b), you are not allowed to pursue collection activity until the debt is validated. You should be made aware that reporting a collection account is indeed considered a collection activity. Boatley v. Diem Corp., 2004 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 5089 (D. Ariz. 2004.
Please be advised that I am enforcing my rights under the FDCPA and under Wyoming's Landlord/Tenant Act, and that this correspondence shall in no way reflect a waiver of any of the rights prescribed under either of those Acts which are not expressly asserted herein. Please cease your collection activity until I receive confirmation through the above information requested. Please also direct any future correspondence to me in writing.
I had a strong, written lease agreement. We also had a written agreement detailing what improvements he could make to the landscaping, that all changes would be done by professional landscapers, and that he would pay for every dime of it. This was at his request, by the way.
I'll put that in front of a judge any day of the week.
Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
8y
@Anthony R. It is an interesting question. Attorneys can be very difficult in general (sorry any lawyers out there).
Personally, I wouldn't deny someone based on their profession just because I feel its somewhat unfair as I wouldn't want to be denied anything because of my profession.
Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
8y
I think being a residential landlord in general can be a big PITA. People underestimate how much crap an investor can deal with owning a residential rental property and trying to collect from a tenant monthly and dealing with their life issues.
We had pest control come to our house yesterday. The guy was asking what I did for a living ( commercial real estate). We were talking about residential tenants and how I have stayed away from that for many years with investing.
He said he helped his mother-in-law with the stress and worked on repairs and oversaw her 9 rentals for awhile. Eventually he could no longer handle the evictions and rigors of the business. He said the kids not the adults got to him as they were stuck in the middle and paying the price for the parents actions not paying the rents etc. and worrying about a place to live.
The mother-in-law could not handle it either once he said he no longer could do it so she sold the 9 properties off even some at a loss just to get out of the residential landlord business.
To do residential land lording effectively is a very small part of the investor world. I think many more fail at it then are successful because it is different or more difficult then they thought it was going to be.
In regards to type of residential tenants landlords can look at percentages with degrees of difficulty but there are no absolutes. I have seen some people say they love section 8 and others cannot stand it. There are so many dynamics on a local market level to residential land lording including landlord tenant laws. In a pro-tenant state you could have the best documents ever and do things perfectly to get a sympathetic judge. Conversely you can have a pro-landlord state where if the tenant is wrong on one account the judge throws the book at them and sides with the landlord.
Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y
This has been a recurring topic for landlords since I've been in the business. It is not a problem for most landlords, who usually rent to working class tenants. Lawyers don't show up for my rentals.
I've heard enough horror stories to give me pause though. We can all hire a lawyer (usually one who is better and is a specialist in landlord tenant issues).
I just rejected a tenant recently because his girlfriend is a housing advocate for immigrants and the poor and pointed out two ostensible violations on my advert and lease. Do you think I want to rent to this self/entitled millennial and spend my time fighting against a fake lawyer let alone a real one? I’m with Nathan G. On this, I will deny rent to anyone I please as long as they are not a protected class.
We rented to a self-entitled millennial who treated us like doormats. Excellent credit, pretty good payments, but complained about everything. Guess what, she went to law school after the end of her lease term.
Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
8y
This was an interesting thread. I don't know if I honestly ever thought about whether or not I'd rent to an attorney. After thinking about it for a while, I think my answer would be the same as @Nathan Gesner - probably not. My rental properties generally tend to be low-middle B, so they're not going to attract that many attorneys anyway, but as a rule I don't rent to PITA people, as they aren't a protected class, even if they happen to have some attributes of a protected class. Besides, case law has moved to where they need to prove you are discriminating against them because of their protected nature, rather than some other feature. So long as you have good rationale, you should be fine - and, as someone else noted, don't make decisions out of fear. I have insurance to cover the fear.
Most of our tenants are connected to the university in some way - students, teachers, admin staff, etc - so that's not really been an issue. But if I get the sense that you're going to be an aggravating tenant, I'm going to send you on your way.
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
8y
I rented to an attorney one time. It was the first time I had a tenant break a lease. They signed a one year lease and I found out later he was actively looking for employment out of town. He broke the lease after only 6 months. They had four kids and the house was a mess. They got it cleaned up and paid rent until I got the place rerented.
Here is the problem with attorneys. Their knowledge of the law works against you. Don't rent to attorneys or police. Both are trouble and neither is a protected class.
A professional tenant, or a tenant that misbehaves for the first time in their rental-life, can be found with anyone from any background and any profession. The problem with an attorney is that they can defend themselves for free, or at least know enough to drag you through the legal process. A normal tenant will have to front the money for their representation unless you have broken some law in which they know you will have to pay their legal fees - ie if they owe 1k in rent, they likely won't have the $$ to pay an atty a 2.5k retainer just to drag out the case (some still may). But an attorney-tenant can put you through hell for free.
A lawyer who works at a big firm is like a doctor: you make a lot of money, work a lot of hours and don't have a lot of free time. The last thing I would want to do with my free time is waste time arguing about nickel and dime stuff. If your bonus is dependent on how many hours you bill (and you pay for people to deliver your dry cleaning and food so you can keep billing), why would you be behind in your rent and draft letters back and forth arguing about it? I think you rented to a down on his luck solo practitioner who is basically on a "eat what you kill" income, like a real estate agent or used car salesman.
@Steve B. not at all- just pointing out the slippery slope. An African American man who is a lawyer is a member of a protected class. Just as a single mother who is a police officer or a wheel chair bound veteran. Any landlord could say, as has been suggested here, that they are discriminating against them merely because they are a lawyer or a police officer or a veteran and not because of their class status. I don’t think it passes muster and I think it creates more potential problems than the perceived benefits.
So you are recommending never denying anyone who is in a protected class? In other words a black man, single mother, wheel chair bound veteran all have bad credit. You deny them and they claim it was not because of their bad credit. You end up in the same bad situation you describe.
The point of a protected class is not denying them because they are black, because they are a single mother or because they are in a wheel chair. It is illegal to do so and morally wrong.
Denying an attorney or police officer because they are more likely to be troublesome tenants is legal as long as you uphold that standard across all protected classes.
You have a valid point that when dealing with anyone who is part of a protected class to exercise caution. Documentation and consistency is critical.
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
8y
@Joe Splitrock the great thing about America is we can operate our business as we see fit. I don't like attorneys but I have had excellent results renting to police. I've rented to five of them, which is a lot for my small community, and I'm renting to the elderly mother of another.
The best part? When I need information on a particular tenant, I call one of my cop tenants (or ex-tenants) and they tell me everything, no questions asked.
Two weeks ago I had man walk in and tell me there were three cop cars at one of my rental homes the night before. They were there for three hours, tossing the house and vehicles. I knew it was something big but there was nothing in the arrest report (I get a copy daily), the news, or the internet. So I called a former tenant that is with the PD. They had to make some calls to find out my tenants were rolled up in a drug bust in another City. They got me in touch with family members who I coordinated with to get the house emptied. I just finished inspecting it this afternoon and will be renting it again soon. Without PD assistance, I would probably still be trying to locate the tenants.
@Patrick M. you are wrong. I rented a single-family home to an attorney with great credit, income was 6x the rent, and his Landlord reference was excellent. On my scale of 1-30 he scored a 28. So everything looks good according to an objective screening process and he was a pretty good tenant for the first nine months or so. Then he started running late, three months in a row and was fighting me about late fees, 3-day Pay or Quit Notices, etc. He was 15 days late on the third month so I sent him our printed policy regarding rent payments, late fees, etc. This was his response:
Complete payment history, the requirement of which has been established via Spears v. Brennan, 745 N.E. 2d 862 (Ind. Ct. App. 2001);
The agreement bearing the signature of me, wherein I agreed to pay;
The letter of sale or assignment from the original creditor to your company. (Agreement with your client that grants you the authority to collect on this alleged debt.) Coppola v. Arrow Financial Services, 2002 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 26788 (D. Conn. 2002) - Information relating to the purchase of a bad debt is neither proprietary nor burdensome. Debtor must clearly phrase their request to obtain: the source of a debt and the amount a bad debt buyer paid for plaintiff’s debt; how amount sought was calculated; where in issue a list of reports to credit bureaus; and documents conferring authority on third party to collect debt.
Documentation of the creation of the debt with your collection agency.
I had a strong, written lease agreement. We also had a written agreement detailing what improvements he could make to the landscaping, that all changes would be done by professional landscapers, and that he would pay for every dime of it. This was at his request, by the way.
I'll put that in front of a judge any day of the week.
Wow what a piece of work. Here's the thing. He's referring to the FDCPA which regulates collection agencies as he clearly has stated. However, landlords are not collection agencies.
Sounds like a Tom Cooley grad. A judge would have laughed him out of the courtroom after slapping him with costs.
Investor · USA · Member since 2013 · 86 posts · 17 votes
8y
I certainly wouldn’t want to rent to a lawyer! (no offense to anyone!)
I did sell a used car to a lawyer once. I just about $hit my pants because he told me what he did for a living as we signed the paperwork.
Thankfully that one worked out.
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
8y
LOL - he used a form letter for credit repair and didn't even know that the FDCPA (fair debt collection practices act) is for debt collectors, who are not the original creditors, but have bought or were assigned the debt.
Since you , as landlord, are the original creditor, you would be governed by the FCRA (fair credit reporting act).
@Patrick M. you are wrong. I rented a single-family home to an attorney with great credit, income was 6x the rent, and his Landlord reference was excellent. On my scale of 1-30 he scored a 28. So everything looks good according to an objective screening process and he was a pretty good tenant for the first nine months or so. Then he started running late, three months in a row and was fighting me about late fees, 3-day Pay or Quit Notices, etc. He was 15 days late on the third month so I sent him our printed policy regarding rent payments, late fees, etc. This was his response:
Complete payment history, the requirement of which has been established via Spears v. Brennan, 745 N.E. 2d 862 (Ind. Ct. App. 2001);
The agreement bearing the signature of me, wherein I agreed to pay;
The letter of sale or assignment from the original creditor to your company. (Agreement with your client that grants you the authority to collect on this alleged debt.) Coppola v. Arrow Financial Services, 2002 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 26788 (D. Conn. 2002) - Information relating to the purchase of a bad debt is neither proprietary nor burdensome. Debtor must clearly phrase their request to obtain: the source of a debt and the amount a bad debt buyer paid for plaintiff’s debt; how amount sought was calculated; where in issue a list of reports to credit bureaus; and documents conferring authority on third party to collect debt.
Documentation of the creation of the debt with your collection agency.
I had a strong, written lease agreement. We also had a written agreement detailing what improvements he could make to the landscaping, that all changes would be done by professional landscapers, and that he would pay for every dime of it. This was at his request, by the way.
I'll put that in front of a judge any day of the week.
Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y
@Joe Splitrock I would be willing to bet that the majority of landlords who are sued for discrimination do not wantonly discriminate a protected class. I would also be willing to bet that there are quite a few who have been found liable who never intentionally discriminated on the basis of a protected class. And that is why I attempted to communicate the quagmire that can present itself.
First Scenario: Someone follows the legal advice of Olszak Realty and prints in their ads "We refuse to rent to police officers." And lets pretend that the PBA would look the other way, no picketing and reality is suspended in the candy cane world. Everything is OK.
Second Scenario: It is part of your non published criteria. A Hispanic police officer applies for the rental and he otherwise meets the criteria that you would require of anyone else. He may have a very credible belief that it is because he is Hispanic. And remembering that we are discussing this in the bubble of a landlord forum, I suspect that others would not buy the explanation.
Just as I am certain about the innocent landlord, I am also certain that the unlawfully discriminating landlord will have attempt to present a host of "legitimate" issues when he gets called on it.
I completely understand your's and other's practices. I do not subscribe to them. If everyone who was sued deserved to be sued the US would be a wonderful place. Likewise, if everyone who was found liable deserved it- we would truly be in the candy cane world.
One thing that I am aware of is we operate in different locales and I am basing my experiences of off a bias that goes in the other way. I can tell you that in my state it is unlawful to discriminate against someone based on their source of lawful income. While this is primarily meant to protect someone on section 8 or other public subsidy, it nonetheless would most definitely be used to file a claim if I discriminated against firemen, police or carpenters. I am almost certain NYC is the same and perhaps others...
I think that about lays it out. If you perceive no risk and you believe you are justified then you will do what you will do. At the risk of disappointing the negative perception of the overly litigious lawyer- I would say this horse is beaten to death.
1. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the landlord
2. If the landlord can show that they’re consistent with what they’ve said and done in the past, then it won’t matter what the lawyer says as long as the landlord isn’t breaking the law
You can what if this all day, honestly, that’s what lawyers are great at and the EXACT reason I won’t lease to one. It's an obnoxious personality trait. I'm currently self managing 12 units and I don't need someone being a smart *** all the time, trying to what if every decision I make when I'm just trying to do the best I can to provide the best life for my tenants I can.
Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y
@Anthony R. First, forgive me in replying to your post if you perceive it to be obnoxious of me... I don't know what to say?
The burden of proof will come into play at the point of trial. A civil trial begins after a very costly and lengthy period of investigation, discovery and motion practice. To have gotten to the point of a trial there would have to be some evidence proffered which would have allowed the case and counts to survive a motion for summary judgment. If you are fortunate enough to have an insurance carrier, this is the point of time that your (their) lawyer begins to tell them how much more advantageous a settlement would be. If you are not covered by an insurance policy you will have had out of pocket expenses.
As to number 2- From your mouth to God's ears as they say. This was covered in my earlier post- (see candy cane world). And at the end of the day the landlord stands in front of the judge/jury and says I just don't rent to the police! I believe some jurors/judges would find that offensive or incredible.
Also even if: Example- You turn around and say- hey, I have a Hispanic tenant! Sure as heck that lawyer is going to interview your tenant and try and establish a pattern of discrimination. He will explain to the tenant the potential payday as he talks to him about any and all perceived slight that he has experienced... plant the seed as you will. No no- a lawyer wouldn't do that! No no my tenant would not...
Point being- I don't want to be caught up in that. I do "what if" at times, but I especially do it when I know of cases where people have been exposed to litigation.
Property Manager · Lakewood, OH · Member since 2015 · 250 posts · 258 votes
8y
@Patrick M. I wasn't implying you were being obnoxious. Just that constantly applying what if scenarios in order to lead a circular argument was obnoxious and a personality trait that I'd expect from an attorney attempting to pull one over on their landlord.
Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
8y
@Patrick M. So essentially your position is that if a person who is part of a protected class may be part of a non-protected class, IE by profession in this case, we should remove the non-protected criteria as the applicant may believe that they have been discriminated against for a protected reason? Then why does this not apply to eviction records, criminal records, income amounts, etc? Someone who earns less than 3x the rent per month isn't a protected class, but following your logic an applicant may believe their application was denied for a protected-class reason so therefore it shouldn't apply. Which leads to just using the application as a data collection tool to fill in a lease and rent to anybody.
The question here isn't if a lawyer falls into a protected class. Its simply if others rent to professionals of a certain industry.They aren't, and your argument is so far out there the risk you propose falls into a file with the most frivolous of lawsuits, which one can never protect themselves against. Someone could sue you for your last post here. They could sue you for walking out of your house with your left foot first. You will have to defend yourself and spend money to do so. But we don't plan our business around those once in a lifetime risks.
So let me preface this with, I go waaaaaaay out of my way to provide the best life and apartments I can for my tenants. I would argue that any property owner, regardless how big or small they are, could compete with the level of care I give my tenants.
I follow the laws and go well beyond what my responsibilities are as a landlord, mainly because, I love taking care of people and making their lives better while they’re in my buildings.
Alright, that all said, I have to know. Has anyone else actively refused to rent to a lawyer?
I’ve had more than one lawyer come to me to rent. Now luckily other qualified tenants appeared before them and I had valid options before they came along, so I was never put in a position to deny them solely on their profession. HOWEVER, I’d be lying if I said I wanted to rent to them. I've had my fair share of time dealing with people in the legal system as I was a MP in the Army for some years. I don't want to get into a legal pissing contest with a tenant so I'd prefer not rent to someone who's dangerous.
