Why Seattle Flipping Is Now Risky

Why Seattle Flipping Is Now Risky

San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes

Real estate is all about timing. Between 2009 and 2014, it was quite easy to flip here in Seattle. In those years, you could find REOs and short sales to buy or buy at the auction. Construction labor and contractors were readily available. 

As of writing this on November 1, 2016, flipping is ultra risky in Seattle.   Construction prices have gone up 40% to 50% in the last twelve months. Contractors complain that flippers underbudget their rehab by 50%. The commercial construction companies come around in buses to "steal" your crews. Hiring supervisors is very expensive. Permits are taking forever. Subcontractors delay for months. 

You know it's bad when you have friends saying they can't find a single contractor to install one window. Or it takes a month to get an reputable electrician to show up to fix four outlets.

It is nearly impossible to find 70% of ARV minus construction costs. Construction costs per multiple experienced rehabbers are going for $75 per sq ft to $100 per sq ft on a "gut out" REHAB.

Some could point to this experienced flipper or that one and say it works. When I look at the risk they are taking on their flips, these experienced flippers all have one thing in common. None of them was doing this prior to 2008. In other words, they have no idea how much risk they are taking.

Yes there are some that really know what they are doing and are still making it work. But I virtually guarantee that all of them are also hard money lenders as well. They are making more money doing hard money lending than their flips. 

The only areas that I would flip in now are Seattle and the Eastside. That's because I seen prices fall like crazy in every other area. In 2010, the houses in Bonney Lake, Summer and Puyallup went from $350,000 to $100,000. Kent, Lynnwood, and Lake Stevens dropped from $350,000 to $180,000. The Newcastle China Creek area and Reserve dropped from $2 million to zero buyers. Oh how people forget.

With all the construction delays going on, it is risky to use a hard money loan at 1% a month interest, 3 points and 2-point extension fees after the 180-day and 270-day mark. Hard money will eat up 8% of ARV every 6-months. If the market crashes and the days on market drop to 24-months, be prepared to pay 32% of ARV if you use hard money.

Hard money lenders make a lot of money but what they are doing is ultra risky too. Here is how it works. You raise $20 million on a reg D rule 506(c) exemption. You get a $20 million warehouse line from Columbia bank. You make a fortune on the velocity of other flippers while THEY take all the risk. The market crashes and you lose your warehouse line. You lose your warehouse lines and your top 3 investors freak out and exit. You hard money fund is down to $10 million, you have huge overhead and now your borrowers give back the keys to the property. If you loan hard money and keep your notes, you are subject to the same market price drops mentioned above. In my opinion, this hard money model is ultra risky. I have seen many hard money lenders go bankrupt during the 2008 crash and it will happen again in the next crash.

So I hear others argue that they put 100% cash on their flip. This is crazy as well if their IRR is less than 60%. Why take all the risk for such a low return. I see people happy to get a 6% IRR with 100% cash. How does that make sense?

If you can't win the game, it is better to sit on the sidelines and wait. My business now is pretty much all hard money lending but we sell the paper through our FINRA broker/dealer in 60-90 days. We loan at a 50% LTV on cash flow turnkey properties in the Midwest. I think hard money lending in Seattle is ultra risky.

I like flipping notes and flipping development projects. Flipping properties in Seattle is virtually crazy. I love flipping though and if you can do it in 90-days with the right numbers, it can be extremely profitable. I am moving to Florida halftime to flip and do BRRRR.

There are still BRRRR deals in Pierce and Thurston county... And urban townhouses deals in Seattle (only). I also avoid West Seattle like the plague. Other than these niches, I am getting out of this Seattle market. I cannot invest money other people's money with the risks being so crazy high.

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Flipper · Mooresville, NC · Member since 2012 · 13 posts · 14 votes
9y

I disagree with the initial premise and first sentence at the top of this thread.  Real estate is not all about timing. Speculation is all about timing.

Real estate is all about value.  Buy right. Fix right. Create value. Sell at a profit or rent.  That works any time and all the time.  Regardless of the timing.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Everett, WA · Member since 2013 · 389 posts · 222 votes
    9y

    @Natalie Kolodij #hobocentral 😂 That is just downtown living in the PNW! Look at dowtown Seattle, Tacoma or even Lynnwood. The fact that you can still pick up a duplex for less than $250k says to me there is still room to grow in North Everett. I know I know, the building is over a 100 years old and may have some deferred maintenance but I have lots of similar buildings and nearly all of them exceed the 1% rule within 6mo of purchase. North Everett is really beginning to blossom and depending on your view on the market as a whole is a great investment in my opinion. Check out the Mayors annual budget address if you haven't already and count how many of the projects are in North vs South Everett http://everettwa.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?aid=685&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

  • Natalie KolodijBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Account Closed I will say the hobos here are less hostile than lake city hobos I was used to.

    I haven't found any duplexes in this area for under $300k in a while. The last I came across was out in Machias for $244 and that was this past spring. 

    I do agree that North Everett is growing and is still an excellent spot for deals- however you've got to dig to find them right now. 

  • Hong Kong, Hong Kong · Member since 2015 · 140 posts · 89 votes
    9y

    From an Asia perspective, we still see strong interest in the Seattle real estate market.  The inquiries from clients have covered the following reasons for this interest (in no particular order):

    - good schools in Seattle area

    - close to Vancouver

    - easy to reach from China

    - good climate

    - less expensive than San Francisco

    - good long-term investment

    Bellevue is of particular interest and some clients even mentioned specific zip codes that they wanted to focus on.

    We believe that this interest for Seattle will continue to grow as China and other countries in Asia are still doing well (compared to many other countries) and wealth is being created every day.  There is new Chinese billionaire created every 5 days.

  • James MillerPro Member
    Investor · Snohomish, WA · Member since 2015 · 139 posts · 42 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Dolly Caswell:

    Some very interesting insight into the state of Washington economic scene . Is there anyone out there that knows specifically about values on Whidbey Island in Washington? I have a single-family lot just outside of Coupeville in BonAir. (Not waterfront, but a corner lot). Has public water in the street and I forget what the sewer situation is. I've owned it for prox 10 years. Should I continue to hold or sell it? Don't really need the money and would prefer to do a 1031 exchange. Ideas are welcome I live in Alaska so have no clue about the reality of what's happening with values.

     The base is expanding and the rental market has gone insane.  I would hold on a couple more years, the navy hasn't finished moving all the sailors in yet.  I have a duplex in oak harbor and I'm enjoying insane cash flow.   I heard recently that there were very few homes for sale from deception pass bridge to coupville.  

  • Flipper · Mooresville, NC · Member since 2012 · 13 posts · 14 votes
    9y

    I've mentored people all over the country, including your market.

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 786 posts · 717 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hines:

    I've mentored people all over the country, including your market.

    If you are mentoring investors, then I am sure you know a ton about real estate. I completely agree that in real estate you are always looking to add value. Kind of the Warren Buffet approach to real estate. Buy low and sell high.

    I think everyone would agree that it was easier to find value in a down market like 2009 to 2011 and harder in an up market like 2015 to 2016. Some markets like San Jose and Seattle are major roller coaster ride markets that go way up and crash way down. 

    Buffett says, "Be greedy when others are fearful and fearful when others are greedy." I see everyone being greedy now and the contrarian in me says to be fearful. My goal right now is to accumulate $200 million in capital through my hedge fund so that I can get greedy when the market crashes and there are deals to be found. 

  • Kirkland, WA · Member since 2016 · 12 posts · 11 votes
    9y

    If you have a property around Seattle or Tacoma that you bought well and is currently cash flowing well, I would say hold it.  The market will correct, but overall the influx of outside industry and money (equalization with Bay Area and foreign/institutional investors) will continue to drive values in Seattle area; we're on a 15-year journey to CA silliness (my opinion of course, but look at the macroeconomics), and your cash flow spread will weather the storm. The build-out happening in Seattle is intense and it is mirrored in Bellevue, and the light rail is connecting outlying cities for rapid access (even from Tacoma).  What's happening here is bigger than the nationwide cycles that will certainly also occur, and a market correction nationwide will likely intensify what is happening in this area.

    In the years leading up to 2000, you didn't see this level of industry and foreign investment or development.  This market was impacted far less than the nation, and that was without 2 powerful economic factors driving investment here.  Here's a third:  when a nationwide market correction is imminent, where would you want to put your real estate money?  How about a city with a past record of moderate responses to nationwide factors and with 2 powerful driving factors, and an ongoing commitment to the supporting infrastructure needed to sustain growth?  How about a city that is currently 40% cheaper than the other alternative West of the Mississippi?

    Think beyond the inevitable correction that is coming.

    • A penniless person thinks of today.
    • A millionaire thinks of the years to come.
    • A billionaire thinks of the decades to come.

    This isn't the market for flipping; agree with @Ryland Taniguchi on that, although there are development opportunities here and more in Tacoma.  You can buy turnkey out-of-state at 9-10% cap rate, and you can weather the market adjustments with the resulting spread--it's not that you can't find a decent flip.  There are always deals in a market of this size, but if you're trying to build a 200 million dollar hedge fund, different rules apply.  In the stock market they say: a skilled investor can make a million fairly easily, but only a phenomenal one can make a billion.  If you want to flip anywhere, you can, but only at a certain scale and for a certain amount of effort invested.  To put my previous stock market statement in context:  a skilled real estate investor can find a flip in Seattle this year, but only a phenomenal one can flip 30 this year. But consider: if you're phenomenal, you probably have better less risky things to do right now than to roll 10MM twice a year on flips in the Greater Seattle market with dwindling margins and the possibility of a correction that stresses you greatly, puts your capital at risk, and possibly wipes out a large percentage of it.

    What I wanted to point out is this:  flips are short-term and the short-term picture in Seattle has risk from both narrow margins and a rising probability of a short-term market correction, but the long-term picture in Seattle is excellent.  I have a house in Kirkland, and I see no reason to sell because I would be trying to time the market (and everyone sucks at that).  Rent spreads continue to increase, property value continues to rise, we'll hit a correction, but it won't matter in the long-term because the macroeconomic factors above will dominate.  Personally, I wouldn't pay today's premium to get in for that, however.  You can do much better, if you focus elsewhere.

    My 2 cents, although reviewing the post it's $2 more than I planned to say.  Version 1 of this was:  "take a flipping nap and come back to Seattle later".

  • Investor · Redmond, WA · Member since 2016 · 267 posts · 110 votes
    9y

    @Julie Marquez  

    @Ryland Taniguchi

    After going through this thread it sounds like the entire real estate community came to agreement that Seattle real estate is overvalued. flipping and renting doesn't make sense and there is a market crash round the corner.

    I think we are missing some very basic things here.

    - Amazon is a Amazing company. The leadership of Bezos, Wilke, Jessy, Blackburn is probably the smartest Tech leaders in the industry. AWS got 10x growth potential. Amazon got 2% of global retail share. They only need to go to 50 more countries to expand 5x, which is well underway. Alexa is a killer. Drones and IOT are a sure 10 year  bet. Overall, you simply can't bet against Amazon. This is not 1999, not Yahoo, not Geocities, or Pets.com. Netflix can fail, Facebook can be disrupted. You cant's disrupt Amazons logistic network, or AWS infrastructure. 

    - Microsoft is out of the clutches of the great sucker Steve Ballmer. Google expansion is well underway.

    - Seattle is already becoming the hub of machine learning and cloud computing. And as Sundar Pichai said, the next decade of Tech belongs to Learning and AI.

    The reason flipping and rental doesn't make sense because you are competing against a different group of people. The average double earning Tech couple with a MSFT/AMZN/GOOG permutation will make anything between 350k-500k pa. And I am talking just Engg. If one of them is in Sr. Mgmt, it will be lot higher. Lot of these people are buying fixer lowers. They are buying old houses at a premium because their wife liked it, not because they need to depend on a house to generate wealth. Many of those people invested in rentals in core Seattle anticipating appreciation, and they don't need the cash flow to survive. Builders are buying at a premium since they know they can sell at a premium to those folks. 

    Sure, the market can correct a little bit. But Seattle has transformed. This is not the city of 2000. There is no way the things that happened in 1970s will happen in the next decade. Flipping will be continue to be risky. Rental cap rates will continue to suck. Simply because you are competing with a different buyer class with a goal around individual utility. Not because the market is skewed or another huge crash just round the corner. Aren't we saying these same things for the last 2 years?

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 119 posts · 121 votes
    9y

    With a cost of $100/ft and 12%/3pt terms of course you can't make any money flipping in this market. But $100/ft? That's crazy, where are you looking at for your laborers? I know several people in Seattle who are real players who are doing it for substantially less than that. If I was to google every single trade needed for a gut rehab and hire the top ranking company for each trade (which obviously would be a stupid thing to do) then only at that point would I possibly hit $100/ft. 

    There is still a lot of cheaper labor out there, if you find that and you add to it some private money financing then your risks are significantly mitigated. 

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