How can I get started in Notes (without buying the seminar)?

Tax Liens & Mortgage Notes
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How can I get started in Notes (without buying the seminar)?

Steve B.
Hinsdale, IL · Member since 2014 · 73 posts · 16 votes

Yesterday I attended a local REIA meeting which had a length presentation about why we all need to get into notes. And it came as no surprise that there was also a length pitch about the note training session coming up for only $2k.

The concept of note buying was good and the presentation was informative and entertaining, as I have come to expect from any seminar pitch that I hear.   But do I really have to spend this money to find out what to do next?   Is there a book, or any other resource that you could recommend to me instead?   It sounds like lots of people have already taken this course or something similar.   Is that the way to go?

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Steve HodgdonPro Member
Investor · Novato, CA · Member since 2015 · 433 posts · 321 votes
10y

This is a great forum to read and find real players. Barrier to entry is very low, so easy to prey on the ill informed.

I'm new to notes too, but have a couple of decades in unsecured paper. Used to own collection agencies so this makes sense to me.

LOTS of sharks in the water. Everybody is selling something.

I read all the books I could find. Am going to Note Summit in San Diego this week and another convention in Vegas in April. I like the NoteMBA podcast. I like NNG and PPR too. Paper Source University has a free download package. Gets you the old school view.

I bought the PPR course. It was informative, but not a lot more than available elsewhere.

I bought one note from a local broker and am just getting into it. Early indication is I paid too much. But, I always have buyer's remorse.

I think I'm going to JV some deals and learn that way.

I'll be posting on the South Carolina note I just bought as it progresses. So, maybe follow me.

Good luck!

steve

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  • Jeff Rabinowitz
    Investor/Landlord · Farmington Hills, MI · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Steve B., "notes" is a fairly large topic. What do you wish to do? Originate notes, become a private lender, buy notes, performing or non-performing, invest in note funds, etc.? If you don't know, search some topics and you will find hundreds of threads and blogs related to notes right here on BP.

    As far as buying programs--sometimes they can give you a good introduction to an area of investing you are not familiar with. The cost might even be worth it depending on whether the information is actionable, how much time it saves you, and whether or not you use it. If the price seems too steep you may be able to find some programs for deeply discounted prices on sites like ebay.

    5Reply
  • Steve HodgdonPro Member
    Investor · Novato, CA · Member since 2015 · 433 posts · 321 votes
    10y

    This is a great forum to read and find real players. Barrier to entry is very low, so easy to prey on the ill informed.

    I'm new to notes too, but have a couple of decades in unsecured paper. Used to own collection agencies so this makes sense to me.

    LOTS of sharks in the water. Everybody is selling something.

    I read all the books I could find. Am going to Note Summit in San Diego this week and another convention in Vegas in April. I like the NoteMBA podcast. I like NNG and PPR too. Paper Source University has a free download package. Gets you the old school view.

    I bought the PPR course. It was informative, but not a lot more than available elsewhere.

    I bought one note from a local broker and am just getting into it. Early indication is I paid too much. But, I always have buyer's remorse.

    I think I'm going to JV some deals and learn that way.

    I'll be posting on the South Carolina note I just bought as it progresses. So, maybe follow me.

    Good luck!

    steve

    7Reply
  • Bill B.Pro Member
    Camarillo, CA · Member since 2013 · 217 posts · 86 votes
    10y

    I'm not aware of a book.  

    If you don't want to spend money for training, I'd find a mentor at the local REI who will accept your work as "tuition". (the "learn by doing" is priceless)

    I have attended Scott Carson's training.  He is fair, and fairly priced.  www.WeCloseNotes.com is his website.  

    To be clear, Scott offers "higher" options.  But, he provides good value in his "entry level" materials.   Also, search WeCloseNotes on Vimeo.  Scott has a LOT of free info available in videos on that site.  

    Even after training ("free" online, or paying for some classes) I'd STRONGLY suggest that you connect with a mentor.  There are a LOT of moving parts with notes.  You can slam your hand in the door far easier than you could ever imagine.

    I hope this helps.

    1Reply
  • Steve B.
    OP
    Hinsdale, IL · Member since 2014 · 73 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    @Steve Hodgdonthat is hugely helpful.   I will dig into these resources and keep an eye on your progress.  Thanks!

    0Reply
  • Steve B.
    OP
    Hinsdale, IL · Member since 2014 · 73 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    @Bill B.thank you.   Just to clarify, I agree that getting educated is a really important first step toward avoiding self ruin.   And I don't mind paying for a teacher/mentor/coach.   I do mind paying for useless gurus, flim-flam, gimmick, anything illegal or bogus.  My question is really geared toward all of you great experienced folks that have tried lots of these courses already.   What worked for you?

    0Reply
  • Bob Malecki
    Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Hi @Steve B., you can pretty much self-educate by reading and attending conferences to network with more experienced note investors. I recommend the Papersource event this April in LV, good info, no pitching. Also Fuquan Bilal just published an intro book available on Amazon, just search for  Turning Distress into Success in the book or Kindle section.

    I've read it an it provides a great overview. I also have reviewed and like the course at Keyhole Academy, Sherman's info and courses have a great content. A weekend bootcamp by NoteSchool would not be a bad idea either, but don't get roped into their mentoring program which starts at $17K. They have a good program, but anyone with a good brain does not necessarily need the mentoring. Its not rocket science!

    Bob

    2Reply
  • Mitch Stanley
    Real Estate Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 104 posts · 30 votes
    10y

    Hi, Would someone post the Realestate Note Conventions web site info for San Diego & Las Vegas that was mentioned.

    Thanks, Mitch

    0Reply
  • John Schmitt
    Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    http://papersourceonline.com/

    http://noteinvestorsummit.com/

    Paper Source is April 28th, NIS is next weekend.

    0Reply
  • Steve B.
    OP
    Hinsdale, IL · Member since 2014 · 73 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Wow @Scott CarsonTHANKS!   From what I have heard, you have a great program.   I am looking forward to attending. Count me in!  I will contact you directly.

    0Reply
  • Steve B.
    OP
    Hinsdale, IL · Member since 2014 · 73 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    @Bob Malecki  Thanks!   Early in my college career I was briefly an aspiring rocket scientist, but glad to hear I don't need to draw on that.   Your comments are really helpful.  I will check out those resources.

    0Reply
  • Darren Eady
    Rental Property Investor · Lindon, UT · Member since 2015 · 862 posts · 438 votes
    10y

    If you would like a basic introduction to performing notes, I'll email one to you.  If anyone would like an email about performing notes, please connect with me and I'll send it to them.

    1Reply
  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    Note knowledge, as it pertains to notes secured by real property, contains two different but equally important aspects.  The BUSINESS aspect, taught to some degree and bias in every course, book or educational material on the subject is one aspect.  The other equally important aspect is the LEGAL aspect.  Educational materials or courses gloss over this, usually just provided a broad general information. 

    There are 52 different legal systems as pertaining to real estate liens in the United States.  And while the same is true of real estate title purchases, the degree of differentiation as to leins is significantly greater.  Efforts to divide states into two categories as to liens, title theory and lien theory, actually lessen understanding of this complicated subject.  

    Each state, as well as Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia, have their own laws regarding the method by which a secured interest is perfected, who can originate real property liens, recording priority, title insurance regulation, foreclosure, notifications, etc.  I have found a dangerous lack of knowledge by attorneys handling lien work in each state.  However I have also found attorneys with extensive knowledge of title and liens and great understanding and anticipation of how various scenarios may play out. The few that have the knowledge and understanding are MUCH higher priced than the typical attorney. And as I have found out, well worth the additional cost

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
    WebsiteView Page
    7Reply
  • Matt McCourry
    Flipper/Rehabber · Myrtle Beach, SC · Member since 2014 · 95 posts · 35 votes
    10y

    @Steve B. To be perfectly honest, I don't know a thing about generating notes.  I am personally looking for private money to expand my growing personal investment portfolio.

    If your interested in getting into the lending space feel free to PM me, if not no worries.

    Best of Luck!

    -Matt

    0Reply
  • Steve B.
    OP
    Hinsdale, IL · Member since 2014 · 73 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    @Don Konipol yeah I agree.   Understand the business part is just the beginning.  Navigating through all the regulation is a lot harder and murkier.   Still working on building my understanding, so if you have any tips please let me know. 

    0Reply
  • Bob M.
    Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2014 · 37 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    talk to @Darren Eady at secure private funding. I've been using him for about a year with a 12% return on hard money loans. Most other HMLs sell notes to investors at a similar return. Or look into PPRs performing notes with purchase price warranties. Good place to start for new investors. PM me if you want more info.

    0Reply
  • Steve B.
    OP
    Hinsdale, IL · Member since 2014 · 73 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    @Bob M.I hope you will let me know if they go NPN or if you just want to get out of them.

    @Darren Eady let me know what you got.

    0Reply
  • Darren Eady
    Rental Property Investor · Lindon, UT · Member since 2015 · 862 posts · 438 votes
    10y

    Thanks @Bob Maher

    @Steve B - I sent an email to you with information on my performing notes.

    0Reply
  • Jeff James
    Real Estate Investor · Whiteland, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 20 votes
    10y

    I will second contacting @Darren Eady regarding his program.  I recently acquired a performing note from his company and so far so good.  Good luck regardless of what direction you choose to go.

    0Reply
  • Darren Eady
    Rental Property Investor · Lindon, UT · Member since 2015 · 862 posts · 438 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jeff James:

    I will second contacting @Darren Eady regarding his program.  I recently acquired a performing note from his company and so far so good.  Good luck regardless of what direction you choose to go.

     Jeff, thanks for referring me.  I've built my business from referrals for 18 years and always appreciate a "shout out"!  This is a great industry when I get to work with great people like you!

    0Reply
  • Phillip Nowicki
    Investor · Yorkville, IL · Member since 2016 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    Hi Steve B from Hinsdale,

    Just wanted to post that I was at NoteSchool this weekend in Chicago. 3 Day event was $797 and included book and online training. They really did an ok job the first day of teaching and going into how to access purchase and evaluate a non-performing loan. Then day 2 and 3 I felt it turned into sales of mentor program with the main speaker Eddie Speed. I would give the class a C for not staying on topic of NPN's. The networking was actually pretty good with current note school students. The info was eye opening as to why the industry is the way it is today but I certainly won't pay $18,000 plus for a mentor course.

    0Reply
  • Tyree Etheridge
    Orlando · Member since 2018 · 42 posts · 12 votes
    8y

    @Darren Eady I'm a fairly new investor who is highly interested in performing notes. I've heard lots of good things about you and would love to hear about some of your performing or re-performing notes in the 12% yield range.

    0Reply
  • Brian Bradley
    Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    8y
    Steve B. Here is some of what I recommend on another post I started similarly shout educating urself in notes. I hunted down experienced professionals whose business solely is investing in notes and read the books they recommended. Here is what I found to be worth the read and homework before investing in notes. • 1. ebook Introduction to Note Investing by @Dave Van Horn found in BP – thanks  @Dave Van Horn • 2. Win-Win Revolution - by Bill Bymel – thanks @Cody Cox   • 3. Real Estate Note Investing – by Dave Van Horn • 4. The Bankers Code - by George Antone • 5. Invest in Debt - by Jimmy Napier • 6. Unlimited Wealth: The Theory and Practice of Economic Alchemy - by Paul Zane Pilzer • 7. The Worldly Philosophers: the Lives, Times And Ideas of The Great Economic Thinkers, Seventh Edition – by Robert L. Heilbroner Find credible note investors and ask to JV some trades or at least ask if you can shadow if you don’t have any capital to invest or can’t find other people’s money.
    3Reply
  • Doug SmithPro Member
    Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    @Steve B., it's not as easy as many let on. Many moons ago I was approached by a publishing firm to put on a course on buying notes, but I realized that there was no way I could teach people the in's and out's in a weekend. I felt as if I would be leading lambs to slaughter. There are so many pitfalls to note investing that I can only recommend finding a partner to work with to learn the ropes...someone that really knows what they are doing. Perhaps you can bring capital to the table for a joint venture. Find something that you bring to the table...something that experienced loan investors could use, and become a partner while you learn. It can be quite lucrative, but you can also lose big if you don't know the pitfalls. Good luck!

    2Reply
  • Steve Haight
    Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2014 · 732 posts · 137 votes
    8y

    Steve,

    There are lots of real good note guys here on b/p and online, that have monthly newsletters and info for people just like you. I have always been a firm believer on furthering my education and will invest every year for more knowledge. Just like b/p, there is a wealth of great education on just about every nich in real estate for the price of your monthly dues here, yet people will still go spend thousands somewhere else. What are you really getting from paying 2k is the question and who is already in the group you could collaborate with to make the 2k investment worthwhile? Good luck!

    0Reply
  • Christopher Winkler
    Specialist · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 900 posts · 392 votes
    8y

    So many good suggestions here for people that are new to notes. There is a plethora of advice, free, low cost, expensive, and extremely expensive. The books mentioned are all great for some good basic, education. 

    A couple I can add are:

    Performance Anxiety, by Gordon Moss

    Make Money Trading Mortgages, by Delbert Mashby

    Smart Trust Deed Investment In California, by George Coats

    Essentials of Real Estate Finance, David Sirota, Dorris Barrell

    Donna Bauer offers some comprehensive education for the price of most 3 day bootcamps. 

    What really matters is you pick a path, as there are so many ways to go, performing, not performing, Senior, junior, residential, commercial, seller finance, contract for deed/Land contract. 

    Then each path has its quicksands, thorns, dead ends, arrows, rewards, and exits. For new investors, it might be buying a performing note that pays a yield that is acceptable to you. Unblemished ones are the most expensive, though if they are reperforming and the person got over their issues, it can be just as good. Ideally you can put it in your self directed IRA and set-it & forget it.

    Otherwise you can attempt to buy the non performers and go though all the pain, agony, headaches, and grief in order to get them performing again. Each one will be different, hard, easy or somewhere in between. We learned from our 50 joint ventures that the ones to avoid are homes with a value of less than $50k that are in judicial states, that you need to foreclose on that needs full rehab. Unless you get it for 10-20 cents on the dollar, you will make little to no money, and just learn a lot of lessons. 

    Whatever way you go, keep everyone posted on how you are doing. Good luck!

    1Reply
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