BiggerPockets Podcast 022 with Tucker Merrihew Transcript

Link to show: BP Podcast 022: Building a Marketing Machine, Spec Houses, Flipping & Wholesaling with Tucker Merrihew

Josh: This is the BiggerPockets Podcast, Show 22.

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Josh:Greetings everybody, I am Joshua Dorkin, the host of the BiggerPockets Podcast, I am very excited to be here for Show 22 and slightly less excited to be talking with my cohost, Brandon Turner.

Brandon: I am also slightly less excited to be talking with my cohost, Josh Dorkin, how are you?

Josh:I’m okay Brandon, thanks.

Brandon: Just okay?

Josh: Yes, well…

Brandon: Do you want to cry about it?

Josh: You know, I might.

Brandon: You were whining earlier about the fire, the smoke and all these things going on. Oh life is so rough in Denver where it is warm and not 35 and raining like it is here.

Josh: Wow, okay, somebody grew up here. Okay, okay, it’s on baby, it’s on.

Brandon: Yes, I don’t know what I just unleashed, but.

Josh: You unleashed the beast man. Well, listen man, I’m super excited of course as always to be here with Brandon. We’ve got a very cool show ahead and let’s kind of hop in and get to it. Before we do though, a couple things, really cool, we’re actually up to now 272 five star reviews on iTunes for the show, 272 man, that’s a pretty cool number.

Brandon: That is huge.

Josh: Yes.

Brandon: I mean we—like six months ago we only had zero.

Josh: Yes.

Brandon: Look at us today.

Josh: You’re a brilliant man.

Brandon: Yes.

Josh: Oh my goodness.

Brandon: No, but that is really good growth.

Josh: I am hiring a new cohost if anybody is interested.

Brandon: Wow, wouldn’t it be great to get fired from my cohosting job right on the air? Wow, that would be awkward.

Josh: Just a little bit.

Brandon: Awkward, awkward.

Josh: We’ve got 272 five star reviews which is pretty awesome, also want to talk about a pretty cool thing that happened just yesterday the BiggerPockets iPhone mobile app went live and this thing is pretty cool. We’ve been working on it for awhile now. It is definitely a version one. It’s definitely a beta version; however, it’s pretty cool, it’s got lots of good features, many are still missing, we’ll get to them, but if you’ve got an iPhone and you want to follow the site, definitely download the app at or you could just go on the Apple store and look up BiggerPockets spelled BiggerPockets without a space in between of course, otherwise, I think we kind of wanted to do a Quick Tip.

Brandon: Quick Tip.

Josh: That was good, that was good, so listen if you guys are not already in a habit, please go to reach out to a new member each day on the forums and just say hello. You don’t have to do much more, obviously, saying more than just hello would be appropriate engaging [Inaudible][3:22]. You never know who you end up doing business with so the whole of the site is to reach out, meet new people, network, if you are not networking, you are not using the site appropriately, part of that is engaging. Reach out, touch someone, meet a new person, and grow your business. Everyday, if you guys do this, look what’s going to happen in one year, you’re going to have a lot of new friends so make it happen.

Brandon: Yes. Cool.

Josh: Is that a good one?

Brandon: That is a great quick tip today Josh Dorkin, good job.

Josh: Alright, so let’s move on to the show. Today, we are sitting down with a really cool guy a lot of you guys probably don’t know, but he is really kicking back side doing a ton of business and I’m very excited to introduce him. Sitting down with a guy named Tucker Merrihew. I believe is the appropriate pronunciation, is that correct Brandon?

Brandon: That sounds good to me.

Josh: Tucker is one of the bigger rehabbers, builders, and wholesalers in the Portland, Oregon market, works through his company, TTM Development. They rehab and build over 30 houses a year and wholesale another 20 to 30. This guy has got a really solid grasp on the world of lead generation and is going to share strategies with us today on the BiggerPockets Podcast so without further ado, let’s bring in Tucker. What’s going on Tucker? Welcome to the show, man.

Tucker: Thanks guys, glad to be here.

Josh: Yes, man, well listen, we’re definitely excited you bring a little twist to the show. You know, we’ve talked about a lot of topics so far in the 21 episode and I think we’re going to reveal some new and interesting details today so I’m excited. Why don’t we jump right in and talk about how you got started in real estate.

Tucker: Well, you know, let’s see, I was in college and I was delivering Chinese food and I was searching for that job I guess everybody wants when they leave college so they feel like they’ve accomplished something in their four years.

Josh: It wasn’t delivering Chinese food?

Tucker: No, that was a different gig.

Josh: Oh, okay.

Tucker: I paid pretty well though, good tips, but I got a job offer with one of the bigger investment, I guess firms in the Denver area and right before they actually hired me. They had me come back and take a personality test. I guess I failed and they revoked the offer and so I was, you know, a college graduate delivering Chinese food. I saw an ad at the point for a loan officers. They had hired loan officers, this was back in 2002 when anybody and everybody could sign loans. Of course, I got into that which ended up being a really good thing for me. It taught me the financial side of the real estate business and ultimately, allowed me to start my own mortgage company, which I owned and operated for six years. That was kind of my lead into real estate. Right out of college, I didn’t really have another job other than delivering Chinese food and that I got right into the mortgage side bought my first house within three months of being in the mortgage business. It was kind of like the YMCA, I had one room for myself and all the other rooms were rented out to my buddies and had them all pay the mortgage and you know. About two and half years later, sold that one in ’05, ’06, at the top of the market, made a nice chunk change and that kind of spring boarded me into buying a bunch of other houses.

Josh: Nice.

Tucker: It was an experience, that’s for sure. I was the guy the neighborhood hated at that point. I didn’t understand that because I was so young and you know, partying all the time with all my buddies, but now I realize what a pain in the you what I was for the neighborhood.

Josh: Nice. That’s awesome.

Brandon: Yes.

Tucker: It was a good experience, I’m glad I got into it. I did learn a little bit about land lording. Fortunately, I had some pretty good friends that didn’t stiff me on rent too badly. We only had one guy that slept on the couch for an extended period, but we made him cook meals and clean the house so it worked out.

Brandon: Nice.

Josh: There you go. Got the boarding house up and running right.

Tucker: Yes.

Josh: Nice. Cool, so you started in as a lender. It’s interesting. It’s one of those—you know, I know we’ve got plenty of lenders on the site who are always like, you know I want to be an investor too. You know, it’s kind of cool you started that way. Was there anything in particular that you found truly valuable? Obviously, learning to evaluate deals, came in pretty handy.

Tucker: Yes, you know, understanding real estate financing is really—it’s kind of like the big black box that you know, that you know, nobody really understands that well unless you’re in the industry. It really kind of clarifies how everything works so you know, for that reason, I’m really glad I got into the lending side first. It was kind of a tough transition though because for awhile there, the lending side of the business was so profitable that it was hard to kind of move on to, you know the real estate investing side and so it took the crash in ’07, ’08 of the business for me to say, “You know what I need to devote my time fully to the investment side of the business and not so much to the lending side.” Once I made that transition, it was a little tough at first, but once I did I was very glad that I did.

Josh: That’s great. That’s great. Is that your dog in the background barking around?

Tucker: Yes, you want to—yes, she doesn’t like the little ankle biters next door and I got two big English Mastiffs so they’re loud.

Brandon: Oh nice.

Josh: Nice. Nice. It’s all good, just you know so everybody knows that you know none of us are having a seizure in the background.

Tucker: It’s a 200 pound English Mastiff, so she’s a big girl.

Josh: Wow.

Brandon: Wow.

Josh: Wow. Wow.

Brandon: That’s awesome.

Josh: Well.

Brandon: You’re full time right now, right?

Tucker: Yes, I’ve been full time since about ’09. You know, I was buying probably a house at a time and flipping it. I bought a bunch of rentals in between 2002 and 2000 let’s say nine. I took a little bit of a hiatus from ’07 –’08, the market was, you know, obviously, in the dumps. I bought a couple turds, I guess you could call them in ’07 right before the crash, which, you know, most of us that we’re in the game did.

Josh: Got you. Well, tell us about those turds. Never thought I’d be talking about turds on my real estate show.

Tucker: Yes. Well, you know. Those of us who have been in the game that long we’ve all done it.

Josh: Yes.

Tucker: It was a good learning experience too, but you know, I bought what I thought we’re great properties in great areas, but they ended up being, you know much more valuable in 2007 than they are today. You know, I’ve held onto a number of them for awhile and rented them out, but it’s been a learning experience—the gift that keeps on giving so.

Josh: Well, we’re these deals that you were hoping to flip and you had to change your strategy or?

Tucker: You know, I was big into rentals for awhile. I liked the idea of some these, they we’re actually condos, a couple of them, but they were in higher end areas and they drew really good rents and there was very little that ever go wrong with them so it made the land lording experience, you know, pretty easy for me.

Josh: Yes.

Tucker: It was also kind of in the front end of my real estate investing, I guess, career. I didn’t really think it all the way through. I thought there would be some appreciation potential and they were great tax write offs at the same time, but you know, thinking back. It was probably a dumb idea to buy what I bought. You know, you live and learn.

Josh: Yes, yes, for sure. Can I dig a little bit and feel free to.

Tucker: Sure.

Josh: It sounds like you’re still holding on to a couple of them, yes?

Tucker: There’s—well—full [Inaudbile][11:12] too that I’m in the process of short selling right now, so.

Josh: Okay, okay.

Tucker: This is something that I just had to happen at this point and there comes a point where it’s just a decision you got to make so I’ve crossed that line and a lot of people have too.

Josh: Oh yes, listen, nothing wrong with it. It certainly happens to plenty of people, so can I ask why now versus say a year ago. It sounds like, you know, these weren’t the greatest of deals last year or potentially even the year before. Was it you know, kind of that, hey let me hold on a little longer and maybe it’ll turn, maybe it’ll turn and ultimately you were tired of kind of spending money on a losing proposition.

Tucker: You know our biggest problem here, the one’s that I had to ultimately short sale was they were HOA problems and property tax issues. Our city likes to continually increase property taxes even though property values are going down so it became increasingly more expensive to hold these properties every month, that and the complex had a large number of defaults throughout it which caused the HOA to kind of have to up the dues to make up for loss dues.

Josh: Yes.

Tucker: Over time, not only did the value go down, but the cost to hold went up, exponentially, so it just was not a good deal.

Josh: No, I got you. Well, I used to live in a condo complex and experienced very, very similar stuff. You know, we had a board that went rogue so to speak. They were, it was pretty much a dictatorship, which was not fun. The dues were just climbing out of control. I was—you know, I was very happily living in this building and ultimately decided to sell because I was very fearful of the decisions that the board was making and I knew that ultimately it would be detrimental to the long-term sanctity of my investment so to speak. I bailed, you know, certainly would have liked to have held on to that thing, but the board really was the cause of it and I think, you like, special assessments that boards like to throw out every once in awhile. Things like raising dues are certainly some of the hazards of condo investments and it sounds like we’ve both dealt with the negatives there. Huh?

Tucker: Yes, there are a lot. You know, I’ve learned my lesson. We are in the process of flipping a condo unit right now, but you know, I guess I go into it with my eyes wide open now. I know what to look for and I like to be in and out of condos real quick these days.

Josh: That was going to be my final question on the topic was, you know, I would say the same thing if I were going to get into condos, I probably would not do it as a buy and hold personally, because again I’ve experience the true negatives of condo ownership, but it seems like if you can get a good deal on a unit, if you can turn it, that’s probably a good opportunity.

Tucker: Yes, we had one come into our lead funnel about, I don’t know, three weeks ago. It was just one those, where you know, we don’t even normally go look at condos when they come in, but you know, the guy gave us a price he were looking for and it was just so cheap. We went and looked at it. It was literally paint and carpet. You know it’s hard to turn that down. It’s a two week rehab then we’ll have it on the market next week, we’ll be in and out.

Josh: Awesome. Sounds great.

Brandon: That is one the benefit of the condos is that you are not looking at a 3,000 square foot house.

Tucker: No.

Brandon: That needs six months of work so yes, that’s cool. You mentioned lead funnel. What do you mean by that?

Tucker: Well, we’ve got, I guess we could just go into how my business is set up if you guys want to do that?

Josh: Yes.

Brandon: Yes, that would be great.

Tucker: You know it started out with just me doing everything, sending the mailers, we do a lot of direct mail, doing all of the online posting, taking the calls, going and seeing the sellers. It just, it was way too much and I would say it’s way too much for anybody to do if you want to do this anymore than kind of a onesy, twosey, you know amount of deals. I brought on a acquisitions manager that ultimately turned into an acquisitions manager slash listing agent and a marketing manager. Now I have two guys in the office that pretty much deal with all the leads that come in so we do a ton of direct mail.

We do a lot of online marketing and we drive them to two different numbers as well as, you know the online ones come in through a website. Once they come in, we’ve got a lead funneling system or a screening system where one of the guys in the office, it’s his responsibility to check the messages, take the calls, screen the sellers, find out what they want, find out if there is any potential of there being a deal there and then they land on my desk if there are. I take a look at them, from there we’ll go out, we’ll see the people, we’ll shake their hands, we’ll get to know them, we’ll try to put a deal together.

Josh: That’s cool.

Brandon: Let’s talk about the direct mail a little more, you know, we talked a lot last week with Jerry Puckett about that on show 21.

Tucker: Yes.

Brandon: I’m just curious, what does your direct mail look like. Do you use yellow letters, white, postcards.

Tucker: We do a combination of things. We do postcards, but we’ll use —I don’t know if you guys have heard of it, but it’s every door direct mail system from the postal service.

Brandon: Yes.

Tucker: It’s a great little technique to use if you want to saturate an area. We have areas that we like to—you know, that we call it our hood. You know, we want every deal that comes out of it. We don’t get every deal, but we get a lot of them. We’ll use the every door direct mail system with that and what that is, is basically an oversized postcard that only costs you 14 cents to send. It’s significantly cheaper than other postcards. The only downfall is you have to hit every door so we do those when we’re doing postcards, other than that, we do a lot of letters.

Josh: Is that the14 cent, discount only given on a condition that you’re going to hit every door. Is that kind of what it is?

Tucker: Yes, you have to hit every door. They basically—the reason why it’s so cheap is they just put one for every door in the mail route so they don’t have to sift and sort it. They just put it on top of every door that they’re delivering to.

Josh: Got you. Got you.

Brandon: The only down side then is you don’t get to only choose people who are motivated or you can’t like sort your list right?

Tucker: Exactly, but on the flip side, you know, we’ve gotten some deals out of that where there were people we would have never thought to.

Josh: Yes.

Tucker: There’s motivation in weird places sometimes and that helps us find it.

Josh: What kind of—oh sorry Brandon.

Brandon: I was going to say that’s a good quote. I’m going to put that in the show notes.

Josh: What kind of messaging are you using on those?

Tucker: You know, with the postcards, we try and do a little bit of shock marketing, something that’s not so boring and goes directly in the trash can so I actually use my—dogs, they’re two big English Mastiffs and one of the postcards says, “George buys houses.” It’s got a picture of George on the front and the other one says that “George eats realtors for breakfast” or something like that. It’s just funny marketing and we’ve had—you know, the houses we have bought from it, you know, they’re from people, you know, they’re dog lovers obviously. This is Portland, there’s a lot of dog lovers in Portland, so we’re playing on that. They also you know, just—it stuck with them. It was something they remembered, it wasn’t just your typical, you know, hey, I want to buy your house at 123 Main Street kind of thing.

Josh: That’s cool. That’s cool. Hey, I don’t know if you’d be willing to, but if so, we’d love to share that with folks.

Tucker: Oh, yes, that’s fine, I’ll put it up that’s no problem.

Josh: Cool.

Brandon: Cool, I’ll definitely link to that in the show notes. Speaking of show notes, we are going to have the show notes at

Josh: No, no, no.

Brandon: Oh, I did it wrong again.

Josh: It’s

Brandon: Show 22.

Josh: That’s fine, that’s why we’ve got two hosts, one to get it wrong and one to get it right so you know. It’s

Brandon: Thank you Josh for being there for me. Alright, well, moving on. You know, you talked about Portland, that you’re in that area so I want to kind of touch on that real quick. I’m just kind of wondering. What is your market like there? In Portland?

Tucker: You know, it’s not a cash flow rental market so we’ll start there. We have lower end and we have higher end. Low end, you know, the cheapest house we’ve ever bought has been 46,000 bucks and it was like, a shanty so I wouldn’t even really call it a house, although we sold it to a guy and he flipped it, he made some money so. You know, somebody else bought it and has a real house, but the high end, you know we’re doing a two million dollar speck home right now, so you know it just—it’s a big variance, but you know, probably the median price is somewhere in the twos, I would say. You’re not going to find your 40,000 turnkey houses that rent for 900 a month here. You’re just not going to find it. For that reason, you know, there really isn’t a whole lot of hedge fun activity. There isn’t any major turnkey outfits so it’s pretty much buy and flip, buy to live kind of market.

Brandon: Ok.

Josh: Got you. Got you.

Brandon: I think that’s really important that you—a lot of people come on BiggerPockets and they—I don’t know—they see guys like me talking about I bought a house for you know $35,000 and it’s like oh man, I can’t get into real estate because I don’t have that market. Probably, I would say, most of the US doesn’t have that market. I mean, most of the major areas, Seattle or Portland, LA, New York or whatever aren’t going to be like that. I think that’s cool you found a way to make it work.

Tucker: Portland is a lot like Seattle, which you’re pretty familiar with that market, you know, it’s just a smaller version. There’s a—Seattle has a lot more higher end neighborhoods than Portland does. We’ve got—you know, you can count them on one hand so those are the ones we try and fixate on for, you know, I guess our go big model. You know, Seattle is just a bigger version of Portland.

Brandon: How far out of the city do you mail?

Tucker: We try to stay pretty close in, you know the Willamette River runs right down the middle of the city. Then there’s the west side and then the east side. Most of our stuff is close in east side just because that’s where the trendiest high-end neighborhoods are in Portland.

Brandon: Yes, so what do you look for in a deal.

Tucker: Well, there’s a couple different—I guess to go back to my business model, there’s a couple different I guess angles that we take. One is you know, your typical fixer type house, buy it, fix it, resell it. The other is the knock down, new build model, where we look for basically the smallest house in the nicest neighborhood and then we knock that house down and we build a new house.

Brandon: Oh okay.

Josh: Nice.

Brandon: I definitely want to get into that a little bit more.

Josh: I was going to say, let’s definitely come back to the spec building and the teardowns so to speak. I want to jump back real quickly, we talked about the direct mail, you also had mentioned online, what are you guys doing for your online marketing. What’s the strategy there?

Tucker: You know, we do a lot of video, we also have I guess, your tip for the podcast, here’s your SEO tips is first get a website. You got to have a web presence, my suggestion, would be get one that has a WordPress blog attached to it that way you can, you know do blog post everyday, every other day, once a week. When you do those blog posts, do them with a video so you’ve got a video, a blog post, get yourself a Facebook page for your business, post those same videos and blog post on Facebook and get yourself a Youtube channel and post those same videos on Youtube and if you do that enough, you know, you’re going to end up on page one. That’s without paying much money.

Brandon: I did some research before the show and I actually went to Google and typed in something like “we buy houses Portland” or “sell my house fast” and yours came up, I think number one.

Tucker: Yes, we’ve got, you know, probably 20 different websites. The other thing that we do is we have a website for every searched domain so you know That’s ours. You know, sellourhousequicklyportland, that’s ours so any search phrase or keyword phrase that people search on a regular basis, we have that exact match domain so every time you search that keyword phrase, for our area, we’re the number choice because we match it exactly with out domain.

Brandon: That’s another.

Tucker: That’s another thing people can do it in their market and it’s helped us get a lot of deals.

Josh: I’m going to jump into something geeky here, which is a little SEO, my understanding is that Google has kind of reduced the importance of exact match over the past couple years. Have you seen that negatively impact you?

Tucker: I’m sure it does in more competitive markets, Portland, you know, we only have a couple competitors online. It’s not I guess quite as evolved when it comes to real estate investing as some other markets. You know, we’re probably one of the more thorough outfits in town whereas if you drop us in a Phoenix or something like that, there’s probably guys that have much more sophisticated business than I do. You know, it really just depends on where you’re at. We haven’t had to work much harder than we already do to get those high rankings, but you know, if we were in another market, we’d probably get geeky and do all the things we need to do to stay number one so.

Josh: Nice.

Brandon: Nice.

Josh: No that’s great. How did you end up ultimately transitioning to the spec side, let’s talk about that a little bit.

Tucker: Well, we, we bought a house that we were going to rehab and we’d always—we’d wanted to jump into the spec building side. We’ve seen a lot of builders that, well not a lot, we saw a couple of builders in the areas that we were operating in that seemed to be selling houses for like a hundred grand more than we were selling our finished rehab houses for. It was just blowing me away what the prices people were getting for these new construction houses so we bought a house in one of those areas and as it turns out there was a sewer line that ran under the right side of the house and it was the neighbor’s sewer line and they never got an easement for the sewer line to cross the property and run under the house. Over time, that sewer line was made out of terracotta pipe, which a lot of the old sewer lines Portland were. It started to crumble and break up so a lot of that water and sewage and everything never made it to the main in the street so it was basically washing out under the house, which caused a major amount of erosion and ultimately caused the house to bow kind of like a rainbow.

Josh: Wow.

Tucker: We bought the house thinking we were going to rehab it and put some peers in the ground and kind of sure up the foundation, but the more we started thinking about it, you know, it just didn’t seem like a good idea to put 20 peers in the ground, you know, and try to sell the house to somebody on retail level. We just figured it would probably freak them out. We decided to take a punch at that point, knock the house down and build a new house.

Brandon: That’s cool.

Josh: There you go, and it’s that simple.

Tucker: Yes, now, we wanted to get into it before that, but that kind of the, I guess the nudge that we needed to do it at that point in time, which ended up being a good thing. It was kind of scary at first, but ultimately, it was just a few more things so it worked out well.

Josh: Can you walk us through the process, I know it might take a couple of minutes here, kind of the step by step, new construction, new home building process.

Tucker: Yes, so it’s you know, virtually the same as rehabbing except it’s easier once you get to a certain point. You basically, you’ve got the existing house or a piece of land and you’ve either got to knock the house down or you’ve got to excavate the foundation so if you’ve got a house on there, you’ve got to knock the house down then you have to excavate for the foundation. Really, you’re just pouring foundation and other than that, you know, it’s the permitting process and getting that foundation poured and picking your plan. That’s really the only difference between that and a major rehab.

Josh: Now do you always have to—I’m obviously assuming you’re going to need an architect to sketch it up.

Tucker: Oh yes.

Josh: Okay, and how does that work because I think people have probably no idea. What does it cost to hire an architect, is it a percentage of the cost of the property, is it just a flat fee? Or how does that happen?

Tucker: You know, it varies on the architect that you get. A lot of them charge per square foot of the house that they’re designing for you. That’s kind of a way that they do it, but it really varies. You know we pay 33 grand, we’ve paid 12 grand for plans. It just kind of depends.

Brandon: Yes, that makes sense. What comes next then? You find the architect, you get the plans together.

Tucker: You find a lot, you then from there decide you know, if you’re going to knock the house down, you decide which plan you want to build. You knock the house down, you take it to the architect, they finalize the plan you get engineering done to the plan, which basically says okay what they designed will work. Then you take it down to the city and you go to the permitting process at the city which can be a bit of a pain in the you what, but you know, it’s kind of a necessary evil in the process.

Brandon: How long does that process usually take for you to—the permitting? I know every area is different.

Tucker: It takes about 30 days here.

Brandon: That’s not too bad.

Tucker: To get that through so it’s not too bad. It’s just—you know, you got to go down to the city, you got to you know, pull a ticket, wait in line, sit in front of people, go back over and over again sometimes, so you know, it’s a little bit, you know, time consuming and irritable but you know, again it’s just kind of a necessary evil.

Josh: On that go back stuff, is it essentially, you’ve got the plan, they don’t like a specific thing about it so they say, “Hey, go back, draw it, make a change here.” You go make a change and you have to resubmit, is that essentially.

Tucker: Yes, exactly. They can be changes with the house or sometimes it’s as stupid as they want a tree put here in the planter in front of the house. You know in the parking strip, so I mean.

Josh: Wow. Okay.

Tucker: It really, you know, that’s why I say it can be trying on your patience at times. We just had a house that we finished that closed last week, a new construction house, and they wouldn’t give us our building final because once you build a house they have to go through and give you the final approval which basically is the occupancy permit for the house and they wouldn’t give us our final occupancy permit until we planted two trees in the backyard that were on the site plan. Even though I had nothing to do with construction of the house, they wouldn’t give us our final ‘til we got two trees in so we had to have our landscaper run up there put the trees in so we could close the deal. Get the occupants out there.

Josh: That’s amazing.

Tucker: Yes.

Josh: It’s amazing.

Tucker: Yes, you can’t beat that.

Josh: Yes, yes, yes, for sure.

Brandon: Tucker, what are the typical like, financials look like on these things, what do you buy them for, what do you sell them for, how much does it cost to build?

Tucker: You know, again it varies, there’s people in town that do them in all different types of neighborhoods. We built in kind of the mid-range neighborhoods and the high-end neighborhoods. We try and stick to the high-end neighborhoods now because your building costs are going to be what they are. The only difference between the mid-range neighborhoods and the high-end neighborhoods is just you’re paying a little bit more for the dirt, but your profit margins are significantly larger in the higher-end neighborhoods because the ceiling is so much higher for the area. I guess, for example, we built in a mid-range neighborhood in Portland, we bought a lot, about, I don’t know, a year ago for $110,000. We built the house for about 265 and we sold the house for about, I believe it was 585 so that was kind of a mid-range neighborhood spread and our higher end stuff, we tend to buy the lots somewhere between 250 and 350, we build the houses anywhere between 275 and 350 depending on whether or not we do a basement and then we’ll sell them anywhere between you know, 750 and a million.

Brandon: Wow.

Josh: That’s not bad so it looks like a hundred grand plus margins on any of those.

Tucker: Yes, I mean we’re obviously, they’re pretty good size margins.

Josh: Yes definitely.

Tucker: Six figure margins on this stuff which is why it’s so appealing for a lot of people in the country right now are kind of looking at this model.

Brandon: Yes.

Josh: Interesting. Interesting.

Brandon: Let’s talk, you mentioned earlier something about a two million dollar flip, I mean a new construction, what exactly was that?

Tucker: We’re doing, we’re actually building a house in the 2013 Street of Dreams for Portland, which is kind of like the crème de la crème of building shows for Portland. I think it’s like that in most cities that have it. They basically, get the best builders in town every year and they have them build a house on what they call the Street of Dreams and so this year, it’s in a really great high-end area. They’re all one-acre lots. We built a 5400 square foot, custom home. It’s going to be a spec house, we’re on of the only two spec houses in the development which is good. It’s a big 5400 square foot house on a one-acre lot. It’s got million dollar views and we got to be done with it in a month for the show.

Brandon: Wow. Wow.

Josh: Get moving man.

Tucker: Yes, it’s been some work, I’ll tell you that, but it’s going to be an amazing house.

Brandon: Nice.

Josh: Well, so how—you know, you got into this, you know, I know you’re wholesaling, you’re flipping, suddenly, now you’re doing these spec builds. I think one of the biggest challenges that a lot of investors face is finding high quality, good quality, reliable contractors, can we chat about that a little bit? How did you find your first contractor? Are they the same contractor you’re using today?

Tucker: Well, you know my model is a little bit different. I started out hiring a contractor, when we first started going kind of full time into flipping houses back in ’09, the beginning of ’09 and you know, it worked out okay. The guy—he tried to gouge me everywhere he could, which is pretty typical with any sort of house flipper, contractor relationship. Ultimately, what happened was, is that we ended getting our own contracting license so now we’re our own builder, contractor so my business is set up so we basically have a marketing company which is the guys in the office I had previously talked about and then we have the guys in the field, which you know, a couple project managers, my wife is our main project manager and designer so we have kind of two businesses that run side by side. The marketing business basically feeds the construction business so we’ve got both the marketing side and the construction side.

Josh: You are your own GCs?

Tucker: Basically, yes, we have our on general contracting license. We are our own GC.

Josh: Okay, your subcontractors then, how did you end up finding those guys? Are they now internal or?

Tucker: They’re all their own subcontractor, I guess, they’ve just been guys that we’ve kind of run across over the years. Some of them have been a rotating door, but a lot of them have been the same guys. You know, when we find somebody that’s good, we make sure that we keep them.

Brandon: Yes.

Tucker: They make for better product at the end of the day and they make our lives a lot easier along the way.

Josh: Do you have any advice on actually finding those guys, where do you—you know, I know we always like to share a tip that J Scott gave us about the best place to find a good contractor is go to a Home Depot what is it? Six AM when it opens up see who’s there, but maybe you’ve got your own.

Tucker: You know, I don’t like to get up that early so I would suggest, just network, who the big players are in your market. Just talk to one of the bigger rehabbers and ask them who they use for some of their subs. A lot of them will be happy to tell you, you know, letting you know who they’re subs are. They’re not really that particular about keeping them just for them, but you know, they could probably give you some referrals to some to some guys who are pretty good. I would network with the guys that are doing a lot of rehabs in your market and see what they say. That would probably be the easiest way to do it.

Brandon: Yes, I like to tell guys who I use because it reflects well on me. My contractor likes me more, gives me a better deal because I give him more work by giving him referrals. It works really well that way so.

Tucker: Exactly and if you’ve got a great tile guy that amazing tile work and you’re willing to refer him, just as you would anybody else so I would say find the guys who are the biggest players in your network, get to know them a little bit, and ask them for referral. That way, at least they’re tried and true.

Brandon: Yes. That’s great. Going back a little bit to—I meant to ask this earlier, but how do you finance your deals.

Tucker: At this point, we’ve kind of stock piled quite a bit of company capital, you know we’ve done I don’t somewhere between 120 and 140, you know, builds and flips so that builds up quite a little work chest of cash. When that’s out, we do use private money and when we’re out of private money, we’ll go to hard money if we have to.

Brandon: Okay.

Tucker: Obviously, our cash is the cheapest so we like to use that first, private money is generally the second cheapest or the terms are the best and hard money is hard money, so.

Brandon: For those who don’t know, do you want to explain real quick between private and hard?

Tucker: Yes, so private money basically comes from individuals that are in your sphere, from what I’ve heard people pay anywhere from 6% and 12% on private money. They either pay points or they don’t, in our case, we pay pretty well to our private money lenders, but that’s because we want them to be excited to lend on our deals so we pay them a pretty high return and we pay them some points, but the biggest thing is for us, it accrues throughout the process so on a cash flow basis, we don’t have to pay out each month for a payment. Whereas with hard money, you know, you have to make your monthly payment each month to the hard moneylender so, you know, if you’re taking a good sized loan, $2, $3, $4,000 a month on a mortgage payment, you know it’s. That can be a big deal for a lot of people so that’s why private money is much better than hard money because you don’t have to make that payment throughout the process if you structure it that way.

Brandon: Yes, that’s a good tip. I know that whenever I do a flip, that’s always one of the hardest parts is, is that monthly payment. It just, it sucks every month.

Tucker: Yes, it does so you know private money is really the key to this business, you know, if you want to do any more than one flip at a time. You know, and if you find a private money lender that’s got money and you can pay him a decent return, you know, and still make a great profit, you know, they’re excited to lend on your projects, and you’re excited because you have the ability to purchase stuff and you know, rehab it. It’s—you got to find private money if you want to do any sort of volume in this business.

Josh: Got you, got you.

Brandon: Yes.

Josh: How many projects are you currently doing at a time, you mentioned, obviously being able to do more than one. It sounds like you do a few, yes?

Tucker: Yes, we probably got somewhere around ten that are in process, being built, that have been acquired, we’ve got a number that kind of, with the Street of Dreams House it’s taking a lot of our time and effort over the last few months to get this thing done because we have to be done by a certain date and it’s such a big house. We’ve probably got, you know, probably three or four new builds that are kind of just waiting on the sidelines waiting for us to finish.

Brandon: Now.

Tucker: When it’s finished, the Street of Dreams House will start the new build process on these three or four spec houses that we’ve got just kind of hanging in the winds, but the good thing about those is there’s a house on the lot so we’re able to rent them out in the mean time. We’re generating cash flow out of these properties that we’re ultimately going to knock down so you know, we get a thousand, $1,200 a month out of all these houses, so it’s not a total loss. We get, you know, it’s feeding the cash flow of the business each month while we’re waiting.

Brandon: Do you have property management that takes care of them or do you do that in house?

Tucker: You know, it varies, most of them are property management managed. I’ve got a good buddy in town that we actually sell a lot of our wholesale deals to and he also own a property management company so it works out to be a really good relationship. You know whenever we get one I just call them up and say hey I got one, fill it. It’s a pretty easy process for me. I know a lot of people have had a little more of a struggle finding a property management company that’s, you know, worth a crap in their areas, but having a guy and I got a guy fortunately, makes it really easy.

Josh: I got a guy.

Tucker: I got a guy that’s in the property business.

Josh: He’s a leg breaker. I got a guy. No, that’s really cool and you know, that speaks to having various exit strategies so to speak happening at the same time, you know, even though renting out isn’t necessarily an exit strategy, it’s kind of a good transition strategy while you know, while you’re holding.

Tucker: Yes and you know we’ve got one right now we’ve been renting. It’s in a nice, probably, mid to higher end neighborhood of Portland. Originally, we were going to knock it down and build new but since we bought it, the market has turned quite a bit here so you know, that’s one we’ll probably just go in and paint it and do a light rehab on it and sell it because our profit margin will be you know, maybe two thirds of what it would be if we built new. We’ve definitely felt the market improve here and that’s kind of changed I guess. We’ve chosen plan B at least on one of our projects.

Brandon: Now I have a question for you. A lot of people when they got into the spec building back ten years ago and the market dropped, you know a lot of the problems, a lot of the foreclosures and stuff happened with people who were spec building. Like, what do you do to prepare for that in the future? Are you just the market or?

Tucker: You know, we watch the market really carefully, but we also only take on these longer term projects because spec building is a six month endeavor so you know, you’re in it six months. There is no speeding that up so you’re pretty much married to this thing for six months before you can dump it. We try and stick to the A plus neighborhoods so that’s our first layer of insulation. Second one is, you know, we’re building g with pretty high margins so even if the market takes a 10% shift, it’s still a successful project for us, even if we have to drop the price 10% so you know is the market going to drop more than 10% in six months? Probably not, but you know if it drops more than 10% we can still get out and make some money.

Brandon: Okay, we talked about wholesaling at the beginning of this a little bit and then you just mentioned it again so why don’t we kind of loop back around to that again. You said, you’re still wholesaling right?

Tucker: Yes, so, you know, obviously the key to us continually finding deals is we have to have our marketing machine cracking all the time so I guess to get back to a little bit of our direct mail, we do everyday direct mail—or every door direct mail postcards, but we also do a lot of letters. We’ve got two full time letter writers in our office so we’ve got guys that are writing handwritten letters everyday and so we send those out to those areas—that we want to exactly—that we want to saturate with those and it generates a lot of leads for us so we buy up everything we can buy and build and also renovate and then once we reach our max capacity, we’re at wholesale. We wholesale everything else that comes through so that’s kind of I guess the wholesale outlet. We’ve been doing that for, you know, probably since around 2010 we’ve been wholesaling fairly consistently and we’ve got, you know the same group of buyers that generally buy from us all the time because they don’t have that machine that generates deals for them. Right now, you’ve got, you know, pretty much no inventory, MLS is hard to get deals on so.

Josh: No, that’s cool, you know. It’s funny because I was—my question was exactly what Brandon asked. Why are you still wholesaling and then it got me thinking when you’re talking here, you know, so many real estate investors, particularly, new investors, they’re so fearful of other real estate investors. You know, they’re afraid that they’re going to steal their deals. They’re afraid they’re going to take their business away and you’re prime example of why you have to network and know everybody because you know, you’re kicking backside. You know, you’re doing your specs, you’ve got your rehabs and you’ve got this massive lead funnel that’s crushing it. You know, no matter what, you’re not going to be working on 40, 50 projects at a time so you’ve got all this excess inventory that you still can monetize, you’re not just going to let the leads go away, you’re pitching them out and you’re wholesaling and you’re making side cash, you know, on top of it.

Tucker: Yes, exactly, you got to keep your momentum up. If you stop marketing you lose your momentum and you lose your deal flow so you know, we keep that marketing machine cracking all the time and you know, we know everybody in town that you know, does this with any sort of regularity and even some of them that are kind of onesey twoseys. We’ve been selling them to the same guys for years and you know, like you said, some people are afraid of their competition and we know them all and we’re on texting, cellphone, you know, basis with them so you know, they give us a call most days asking us what we’ve got for them and we got something, we sell, if we don’t, we tell them we’ll get them something so.

Brandon: I think you said something key there and that is you have a small group of people who buy most of your deals and I think a lot of gurus and other guys try to say you need to build your buyer list, build your buyer list, like it’s some like 400 line Excel sheet of buyers, but in reality you need a small group of people who can actually complete those.

Tucker: Yes, absolutely, I mean the fact, anybody says you need 50 a hundred buyers, I mean it’s just ludicrous, you don’t need that at all. I mean you’re just going to be wasting your time with most of them. If you have five guys, that you know, all do a slightly different business model when it comes to rehabbing that’s all you need because you’re going to get different business types of leads in so some guy might like the big rehab that’s got a little bit bigger margin on it. The other might just like paint and carpet that just makes 15 grand on the rehab. You know, that might be his thing so when we get deals in that we’re going to wholesale, you know, I know immediately okay which one does this fit with the best and we’ll usually take it to them.

Brandon: Got it so for new wholesaler, you know, for somebody who’s just starting to kind of crank out their marketing machine and get the ball moving. You know, finding out who those five people are is certainly not something that’s going to happen immediately. What advice do you have for those guys, for filtering through the time wasters, the you know, the guys who are just folded and actually finding those people who deliver. You know, there’s a guy in our market that, you know, I’ve bought deals from and we’re actually co-wholesaling a deal today. He was a new wholesaler and he’s, you know, starting to get some traction, he’s making some good money and he’s getting some pretty good deal flow, but his strategy and I think this is a really smart one, is just network with, you know, the players in your market. You know, find the guys that are doing a lot of rehabs, you know, like us or somebody else in another market and go network with them. They’ll be your buyer, you know, if you get a deal, they’re happy to pay you some money to take the deal over and that’s exactly what happened to this guy and he’s found another guy in my market too that he sells too. He’s having a lot of success just selling to two guys that do a lot of rehabbing.

Josh: Yes, yes, it’s funny because today on the site, somebody had posted an add on BiggerPockets of course, that they’ve got this property for sale and you know I ask a couple questions, I asked, hey, tell us about the numbers and you know, they were super shy. They didn’t want to answer any questions on the numbers, you know, do you own this, you know, are you wholesaling, you know, top secret on that as well and you know, again, it speaks to this kind of fearful wholesaler mentality that you know, people are going to kind of—that might steal from them or take their deals. You know, can you maybe talk to that a little bit about, you know the security of you know, your wholesale contracts and how to protect yourself.

Tucker: You know, again it just comes down to the guys that you’re selling to. You know we like to do business with guys that like to do business with us so for example, the one that we’re co-wholesaling today, you know I was straight up honest with the guy who’s buying it. You know, I even introduced him to the guy that we’re co-wholesaling with I mean we walked the house together, I told him what our spread is going to be. I told him what we’re making, you know, as long as you’re doing business with people that you like to do business with, you know, they’re not going to go behind your back and screw you. You know, they want you to bring them the next deal. I mean this guys, there’s no way he’d ever screw us because we’ve been feeding them deals for awhile and he wants us to bring him more in the future. Why sever that relationship over one deal so I think it’s a really short sighted strategy of people that do, do that and I don’t think they’re going to be long term in this business. If somebody is doing that, just ax them, get them off your buyer’s list.

Josh: That’s funny. I said the same thing to Brandon. I said, unfortunately, I don’t think he’s going to be around very long if he keeps it up. You know, you’ve got to establish some sense of credibility for yourself by being honest and upfront not that I’m saying he’s being—this particular person is being dishonest, but they’re not being transparent and I think some level of transparency is definitely required in order to build your credibility.

Brandon: Yes, I agree. Absolutely and you know, it’s a small community in every city some are smaller than others, but of real estate investors. You know, if you’ve got a crappy reputation, it gets around the circle pretty quick, so you know, just operate with a high level of integrity and you know, work with people that do the same.

Brandon: Yes, no, that makes perfect sense. Well, cool, one of the last questions I wanted to ask and again we’re kind of jumping around a little bit today so I apologize to all the listeners. I just want to make sure I ask this, when you’re either flipping with your wholesaling and your spec building, in your particular market, what are people looking for that you found specifically, is there any like—they’re looking for this size house or a pool or a—what are they looking for?

Tucker: On a retail end?

Brandon: Yes, yes.

Tucker: Okay so for on a retail end when we build houses, we try and do pretty open floor plans. That’s one thing that’s different from the rehabs is we do an open floor plan. We’ll do, you know, either master on the main or master upstairs, we try and keep the bedrooms fairly close to the masters so they have small kids. They’re not too far away. We always do a garage. Garages are key and one thing that we learned in some of the higher end neighborhoods is we always do a basement so we had one house we built in the higher-end neighborhood and we probably sold it a hundred grand less than we could if we just put a basement in there and the reason for that is because every other house in the neighborhood has a basement because they’re older homes. People just walk into the house and they expect it to have it. That’s a few of the things that we do to kind of make sure that things sell. That and our design touches. We’re really, really, really good with design. That’s one thing that sets us apart from a lot of the other guys in the market. You know we have a lot of copy cat guys that you know copy us because of that, but you know, I guess, imitation is the finest form of flattery, right.

Josh: Sure. Now, those are design touches, obviously, on the actual construction itself, presumably you’re doing a fair amount of staging as well. Yes?

Tucker: Yes, we fully stage all our houses, but when I say design touches, I mean, you know, all the surfaces, paint colors, you know, trim packages, doors, cabinet details, all the stuff that you know, buyers see when they go into the house.

Josh: Got you. Got you.

Brandon: Kind of a weird question, but where do you get materials from? Do you just go to Home Depot and buy them all like for a spec house?

Tucker: No, we don’t. You know that’s the thing we try and shy away from because we’re selling, you know, a lot of these are seven, eight hundred, nine hundred, million dollar homes so you don’t want to get the surface mount light at Home Depot and put it on the rooms cause you’ll like, you know, you probably don’t belong in that price point. You know, we order all of our stuff specific from vendors that are, you know, lighting supply company or you know, we’ve got doors and trim outfit that just sells doors trims and windows so we’ll buy from them. We have a vendor for each specific product, which gives us a lot more variance in what we can choose on the houses.

Brandon: Wow. That’s cool.

Josh: Are you—obviously, it sounds like, beyond just quality and choice, you’re also probably getting a discount working through these direct vendors versus going to Home Depot or is that not the case.

Tucker: You know, Home Depot prices are pretty good. Some of our stuff our definitely cheaper because we’ve got a, you know, Oregon construction contractor’s license so, you know, we’re basically buying at contractors prices through a lot of these vendors so. You know, but Home Depot has a good deal on all of it’s stuff, sometimes they’re tiles are cheaper than anywhere else so.

Josh: Hey, on the contractor’s license thing, you know, that seems like it might be pretty useful for guys who are flipping, spec building, obviously. You know, is that something that you think, a guy who’s going and flipping a couple houses a year is going to benefit from getting.

Tucker: Well, in our market. I believe this is still the rule, but if you do five houses or more a year, legally you have to have a contractor’s license so that’s the initial reason why we got it so you know, if you do, you know, even if you’re just a small time guy, legally you have that construction contractor’s license now, there’s a lot of guys that operate without it, but they should be getting it. That kind of made the decision for us at least here.

Brandon: Nice.

Josh: Nice. Nice. Cool. Well, listen, I mean, lots of really interesting information. I think, you know, there’s so many investors who are sitting and thinking well I’m going to wholesale. I’m going to flip. You know, they don’t ever even consider the idea of spec building. They think it’s this unreachable, untenable thing. I think you’re kind of bringing it. I mean, certainly, it’s not something you want to jump into as you first task in real estate, but you know, it seems a little more realistic I think after hearing you kind of go through you know, how you kind of developed your team and built your processes. You know, even though it’s a six month project, you know even just putting together a house, it seems like something people can aspire to.

Tucker: Yes, you know, you just got to crawl before you walk so you know, you start out wholesale a few deals. Get comfortable with getting your deal flow out. Maybe partner with a rehabber in town that you’re selling to on a deal. See how the rehab goes and then maybe eventually, you jump out on your own, you do your own rehab. Then you just kind of grow it from there so that would be the process I would take if I were starting over.

Josh: You said partner with the rehabber. How exactly might they actually do that, if they’re just a wholesaler who doesn’t have too much experience?

Tucker: Well, like I said before, you want to kind of find the guys in your market that you can sell to, you know, inventory is hard to find right now so everybody wants a deal so if you can find a deal as a wholesaler. Bring it to a rehabber, you know, instead of wholesaling to them and taking a spread off the top. Partner with them to some extent and have them teach you how the rehab game works. Follow them around, go to the property, see what he’s doing, you know, they’d be happy to do that. I know a guy in my market that’s doing that, not only with me, but for another guy as well. You know, that’s how he’s kind of how he’s getting in the rehab game so it’s a great tactic. It takes a lot of risks off your shoulders of it being piggy-back off somebody else, but at the same time learn, so.

Josh: That’s great advice. Very, very good advice, well listen as we run out of time we’ve got our famous four.

Brandon: Famous four.

Josh: Yes, by the way, as I sit here and look at you. It’s kind of tripping me out here Tucker. I feel like I’m having a conversation with Matt Damon. It’s.

Tucker: I was at house two days ago, I got a contract and everybody said the same thing and it made me really uncomfortable so.

Josh: It’s kind of like man love that I have for you or anything, it’s just one of these you know, okay, you know, I’m a fan of Damon this could be cool.

Tucker: I’ve gotten it a lot the beard kind of deflects it a little bit, but you know, it is what it is.

Brandon: Nice.

Josh: That’s nice. We all have our doppelgangers.

Brandon: Yes, Josh, he might not want to admit it, but he looks exactly like Adam Levine from Maroon Five so.

Tucker: You know, now that you say it. I see the resemblance.

Brandon: Yes.

Josh: You don’t want me singing. Well, let’s knock out this famous four. What is your favorite real estate book?

Tucker: You know, I wouldn’t say I necessarily have a favorite. I like reading the Trump books because I’ve read them a number of times. I haven’t found any real estate books that are overly specific that are mass-produced so you know, that’s kind of the biggest thing. I like to read stuff that’s tangible and usable in my business, it’s—really the only place you find that is through people and conversations and blogs at BiggerPockets and places like that so.

Josh: Nice plug and he wasn’t paid for it. What about non-real estate, just business book?

Tucker: You know, probably my favorite book is How To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. That was a pretty powerful book. A lot of it is intuitive information, but to have it and read it, have somebody else, you know kind of explain it to you. It makes a lot more sense. That’s probably the book that I’ve put to use the most, I guess, in my life and in my business.

Josh: Right on. Right on. You’re up right in Portland so hobbies, you windsurfing the gorge, skiing Mount Hood, you know, rock climbing, what are you doing up there?

Tucker: You know I enjoy snowboarding a lot. I’ve been doing that my whole life, I play a lot of basketball, I like golf, golf this weekend, so you know, those are probably the big three I would say.

Josh: Nice.

Tucker: That and my dogs. I’ve got two big dogs, so you know, I hang out with them all the time.

Brandon: That’s cool. Hey alright, final question for the day, and I ask this to everyone. What do you think sets apart the successful investors from those who just come and go quickly or never really get started?

Tucker: You know, momentum, you got to keep your momentum up. You know, people start and stop all the time and it’s hard to achieve success in this business if you’re starting and stopping. You got to keep your momentum up so if you start marketing, keep marketing, if you start rehabbing, you keep rehabbing so that’s what I would say.

Brandon: That’s an awesome tip, nobody has ever said that, but that’s so true.

Josh: I was going to guess you were going to say something along those lines, you seem like the guy who just like yes, I mean you’re a train and that’s awesome.

Tucker: Some people might think that’s a bad thing, but yes, you know, we just kind of set our mind and stuff and we do it. You know, and that’s just the way you got to be in this business. It’s not an easy business some days, but it’s really rewarding, so. You just got to put a goal out there and get it.

Josh: Nice. Nice. Alright man, so where can people find out more about you? We’re obviously, we’ve got the bio and stuff on the show notes at

Brandon: Show 22.

Tucker: You know they can find me on Facebook. That would probably be the best way. I’ve got a number of pages, but you can just go to my profile and from there you can go to the different pages and follow our business and see what we’re buying and selling everyday.

Josh: You’re also on BiggerPockets.

Tucker: I’m also on BiggerPockets, you can find me there. I’ve connected with a lot of people there, it’s been a lot of fun, so find me there. Find me on Facebook.

Josh: Nice. Awesome, awesome. Alright man, well listen, Tucker, it’s been great having you on the show. We definitely appreciate the time and we all look forward to seeing around the site and Facebook.

Tucker: Sounds good. Thanks guys.

Brandon: Yes, thanks Tucker.

Josh: Alright everybody, that was today’s show with Tucker Merrihew, BiggerPockets Podcast Show 22. Hopefully, you guys enjoyed it as much as I did. I know when I get done with these things and Brandon and I talk about this all the time. I’m super motivated. It’s funny. It’s like each new show I’m like I got to do more wholesales, in today show, I’m like oh my goodness. I got to go out there and start spec building. Whatever it is, hopefully you guys are getting the same vibe, the same energy, the same feeling as Brandon and I are from doing these shows and obviously, we hope you will continue listening. Our show notes for those of you guys who might have missed it, can be found at, otherwise definitely make sure to join us on BiggerPockets if you’re not already a member. Get on, sign up, set up a profile, get engaged, get involved, crazy we had almost 900 forum posts in the past 24 hours so the site is crazy lighting up with energy and activity, definitely get involved, Otherwise, make sure you find us on Facebook at, on Youtube at, check out the channel we got lots of cool video interviews, all sorts of great stuff and Twitter at Oh wait, You can check me out at and you can check out Brandon @BrandonAtBP. Thank you again for listening and we will catch you around at the next one. I’m Josh Dorkin signing off.

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