BiggerPockets Podcast 032 with Will Barnard Transcript

Link to show: BP Podcast 032: Luxury House Flipping, Finding Deals, and Discovering Your Niche with Will Barnard

Josh: This is the BiggerPockets Podcast, Show 32. 

You’re listening to BiggerPockets Radio -- simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you’re here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you’re in the right place.  

Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com -- your home for real estate investing online. 

Josh: Hey, what's going on everybody? This is Josh Dorkin, host of the BiggerPockets Podcast. Today I am here with my co-host, as always, Brandon Turner. Hey, Brandon. 

Brandon:Hey, Josh. What's up? 

Josh: You need some hot tea, buddy? 

Brandon:I might. You hear it in my voice? 

Josh: You don't sound too good, man. 

Brandon:Yes. I don't know. I woke up with kind of a scratchy voice because I kind of went to bed with one, too. Yes, it's all right. I'm a whiner. I'll get over it. 

Josh: A little bit. As Queen once said, "The show must go on," my friend. 

Brandon:Queen? 

Josh: The show must go on. 

Brandon:Thank you. 

Josh: The show must go on. 

Brandon:Yes, yes. 

Josh: The show must go on. Can we continue? 

Brandon:Please. 

Josh: Yes. Anyway, yes, man. I'm sorry you're feeling sick but we're all happy that you're here for this episode.  

Let's move on. It's going to be a great show. We'll move right in to the quick tip. Today's quick tip: Gmail. Lots of you guys are using Gmail. They made a major, major change recently and just want to let you guys know about it.  

Essentially, what they did is they took your inbox and they said, "Hey, we know your inbox better than you do and we're going to break it up for you." They took all your mail and broke it up in to a bunch of different tabs including promotion tab. I don't remember what all the different tabs are.  

Essentially if you've got newsletters that you like and that you follow, those are probably now not going into your Gmail inbox. They're probably now going into your promotions tab or one of the other ones. We've got instructions on what you can do about that.  

If you actually want to see things like our newsletter appear in your inbox or our notifications and other stuff, you literally will go to one of those messages in your promotion tab, drag it into your inbox. It will say, "Do you really want to do that from now on?" You say, "Yes," and you're down.  

Again, we've linked a video and instructions in the show notes. Definitely check those out at BiggerPockets.com/show32. That's today quick tip to ensure you get all the important newsletters and e-mail you want to get through Gmail, not just ours. You definitely want to check out this post that we put together on the forums. That's it. 

We're going to jump right ahead and get in to the show. Like I said, today we've got Will Barnard. Will's a friend of mine. He's been around BiggerPockets for a really long time now.  

He owns a company called Barnard Enterprises based on Southern California and has experience in almost every aspect of real estate investing including spec building, fix and flip, rehab-ing, landlord-ing, short sales, land development, notes, and on and on and on and on and on and on.  

We definitely are going to want to cover all that stuff today. We're not going to get into detail on all of that, but he's got a ton of wisdom. Definitely pay close attention. You're going to learn a lot. With that, let's bring him on. Will, welcome to the show. Good to have you. 

Will:How's it going, fellows? 

Brandon:It's going good. 

Josh: It's going good. Yes. Yes, real good. I'm doing better than Brandon though. 

Brandon:You usually are. 

Josh: Yes. That's how it is. 

Brandon:Actually, weren't you guys, both of you complaining right before we started recording about how sweltering hot it was? I just want to say it's 72 and there's a light breeze here. I'm doing well right now. You two are whining. 

Will:So nice for you, Brandon. 

Josh: Yes, yes, yes. All right, man. Southern California real estate, that's what you're doing today. Let's go back a little bit. What did you do before you got into the game? 

Will:I started out...at a young age I've always been an entrepreneur. I kind of had that entrepreneurial spirit. I started on a business at 20 years old. I ran an offset printing company and I did that for over ten years. I still do a little bit of it on the side. 

Josh: Nice. When I was a boy... 

Will:Yes, when I was a boy. While I was doing that, I had an interest in real estate and I really, really wanted to get going on that. I really enjoyed it. Around 2000, I was out looking at houses because I wanted to buy them, fix them, and sell them.  

At the time, the only thing I knew about in order to how to take it down was to go to a bank and beg for money and get a loan. At the time, I didn't show a lot of income. I was self-employed and I'm trying to not show income as a business owner. 

Josh: The IRS isn't listening. Don't worry about it. 

Will:Thank God! Thank God. Anyhow, I didn't think I could get a loan and I never pulled the trigger. Fast-forward four years later, 2004, I finally said, "You know what? I've got to do this come heck or high water."  

I pulled the trigger and I started to learn everything I could about real estate. I was at real estate events. I was reading books. I was cruising the internet, founded BP on 2006, I think. That was a huge jumpstart for me as well and the rest is history. 

Josh: All right. 

Will:I've been doing real estate ever since and I will never go back to anything else. 

Josh: Nice. 

Brandon:Nice. 

Josh: Let's talk about the very beginning of the real estate career. How exactly did you get started in terms of deals? Let's walk through that first one that you did. 

Will:Certainly. First several deals were all buy and hold. They were all done with partners. I had very little to none of my own money in the first several deals. All of those deals were all out of state, mind you, Texas to be specific. 

Josh: Nice. How did you find Texas? You have family there or something? 

Will:I did have family there and I did talk to my aunt and uncle and tried to get familiar with some of the areas there. I initially was interested in the San Antonio area. That was where I did end up investing.  

My first several deals were there in San Antonio. It wasn't because of family. I researched the market and it was a very stable market. It was growing. I saw opportunity for cash flow and so that's why I went on after that area. 

Josh: How did you end up deciding, "Hey, I'm going to go in with partners," and start doing real estate that way? 

Will:Because I didn't have my own money to buy $100,000- and $200,000-dollar houses so I needed partners. 

Josh: Got it. 

Will:That was my avenue. 

Josh: You found them by doing what? 

Will:First partner was my father, my mother -- family. We've had this discussion a million times on BP. Some people say, "Never do business with family." Some people say, "You got to do business with family." I'm of the opinion that if it's possible, you should do business with family, but you should also do it right.  

I think what sets me apart where you hear horror stories of doing business with family is that they don't protect the other family member or somebody else in that relationship is somewhat shady. I don't happen to have that situation and I always protected the assets as if they all were 1,000% mine. There were never any issues. 

Josh: Right, right, right. Got you. You started. You had some family. They came in. They were your backers and presumably you handled the rest of the business. You got the money and you did everything else. 

Will:Precisely. They funded it. I found the deal. I analyzed the deal. We closed. Then, I placed tenants, fixed, did everything I needed to do, and I ran all the finances and all that stuff. They just supplied the money. 

Brandon:How did you structure that? Did you offer 50-50 or was it just case-by-case? 

Will:It was 50-50. We formed an LLC in Texas as you should always form your entity in the state you're doing business as or register an entity as a foreign entity doing business in that state. Anyways, I did that and we were 50-50. My father was 50% owner of the LLC and I was 50% owner of the LLC. 

Brandon:Okay. Yes. 

Josh: A lot of people complain they don't want to be a partner because they don't want to lose half the deal, but I always feel it's better to have 50% of a deal than 100% of no deal. A lot of people just say...yes. I love partnerships. I love them. I use them almost... 

Will:Truer words were never spoken. If you can get away with 100%, absolutely. If you can get 50% of something, 50% of something is, like you said, better than 100% of nothing. 

Josh: Yes, definitely. Let's talk a little bit more about this partner thing. You kicked it off. You partnered with the family. As you've come along, have you continued to use partners to finance your business or did you eventually just stop doing that? 

Will:I did partners up until...well, I still do partners now. Going back, I did partners until about 2010. After that, everything…because I switched my business from Texas. I got rid of everything. I sold all my rental properties. I own no rental properties at the moment. I do own this.  

Anyways, all my business moved to Southern California when the market changed. That's when I started doing rehab-flips. Other than one partnership, everything was done all me, 100%. However, in the past year or so, I've been doing some really, really big deals and I've been doing a lot more deals than I used to.  

I used to do one at a time. Now, I will, on occasion, bring in somebody who's got money and they'll finance the deal and I'll bring them in as a partner but I'm very choosy on who I pick to do that. They are very experienced like I am. 

Josh: Got you. Got you. Okay. That's great. That's great. 

Brandon:Cool. I know we want to talk about those bigger deals which we'll definitely get to. Before we do, I'm wondering. You mentioned in the forums one time about a property that you're having a lot of trouble with. I think you called it your "Tenant from hell" story or something like that. I'm wondering what you can tell us about that story. 

Will:Yes, the infamous "occupants from hell" story. That is a very long story on BP. It's a very long story in my life. That started with what should have been a grand slam deal. 

I bought a property two and a half years ago in the end of February. It was subject two. It had an existing first mortgage with Wells Fargo. I took over that loan subject to me buying the house, the property, transfers, title into my name or my business entity but the loan stays in the previous owner's name. They're still ultimately responsible for the loan. That's a subject two purchase.  

I then brought it about $45,000, $55,000 and change in capital to close the deal. That's all I had in the deal. Then, the idea was offer the occupant cash for keys to walk and then I did a rehab. I fix it and flip it and walk away with a homerun deal. As it turns out, the occupant claimed challenged title, claimed to be married to the party that sold me the property. Never was.  

Anyways, long story short, two and a half years now I've owned this property. I have yet to step foot in the property. I've never seen the inside of this property. I've owned it for two and a half years and I spent tens and twenties of thousands of dollars in attorney's fees and I'm not done. 

Brandon:Wow! That's crazy. That is crazy. 

Will:It is a very sad story. It's very unusual. In fact, my attorney has talked to numerous attorneys. I've talked to probably ten thousand people between BP and communities I speak at. No one's ever heard of it. It's basically a punitive spouse issue which is a legal term. No one's really heard of it. The only reason my attorney ever heard of it because it was on the bar exam. 

Josh: At least he was paying attention while he was studying. 

Will:He was paying attention but no one's ever dealt with a punitive spouse issue. It's something that's never dealt with. I'm stuck in family court but I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. I'm very close now. 

Josh: Wow, wow, wow! That's certainly an unusual event. Does that change your mind at all on doing a sub two or is it just one of those things that happens and you move on? 

Will:I think it's one of those "I got bit by a shark and struck by lightning all on the same day." I'll be more careful next time and I'll have something that I will do to protect myself from that -- further disclosures, further due diligence. In this case, there was really no due diligence I could do. I researched. The property was her sole and separate property. Everything on title was clear. I did everything I could do. 

Josh: Yes. 

Brandon:Do you still expect to make a profit after all this has been said and done or do you think that's gone by now? 

Will:I'm sure that's gone. I'm praying to God that I can walk away, get my private lender paid back, pay off the first, and somehow recoup the money that I've put into it. If I could walk away with a zero sum game, I'll consider that a homerun in this scenario. 

Brandon:Nice. 

Will:If this would have hit somebody without the financial capabilities like if this is your first or second deal, it could have potentially ruined somebody. Thank God I have the resources to get through it. 

Josh: Yes, yes. Unbelievable. To those people listening, you have to be prepared for anything. This is unfortunately something that has come up and really was out of your hands no matter that you did your homework, you did your due diligence. You kind of expected this. 

Will:Yes, you're absolutely correct. Just a quick disclaimer, I don't want this situation to discourage or scare or add more fear to anyone who wants to do a sub two or wants to get into landlord-ing.  

By all means, you have to pull the trigger. You have to take action. More millionaires and billionaires are created through real estate than another vehicle. Don't let this shy away from...sub two's are a great way to get acquisitions with very low money down. 

Josh: Yes, yes. Let's talk a little bit more about the buy and hold strategy. You did that for a number of years. Were you the manager or were you outsourcing that to a property management company since you were doing it at a distance? How did you handle it? 

Will:Because it was at a distance, I had literally no choice but to hire a property manager. That was a learning experience all on itself. I did have what I thought was a good property manager. It seems like every property manager that started out with me was good until six months later or a year later. 

Josh: Speak to the choir, baby. Speak to the choir. 

Will:Exactly. We've all experienced it. Dealing with property managers, you have to manage your property manager and you have to screen them like nobody's business. 

Brandon:Yes. Do you have any tips or advice on that? I know I've fallen for the same issues. I've had the same problems. I do everything I can to help people. Be careful in screening, folks. What are your best tips there? 

Will:If you're going to invest out of state, my opinion on it is if you're going to do it, go all out and do it. In which case, go big or go home. If you're going to do it, buy one or two. You're not going to get rich off that. It's almost more hassle than it's worth, my opinion.  

My suggestion and one of my very close friends, also a BP member, he owns a lot of out of state property and I believe the way he did it is the right way to do it. He bought a lot of them. He bought a lot of them at once and he bought them in partnership with somebody with goods on the ground there, knew the market, managed them, and has a vested interest.  

He's not just a property manager managing your property. He's the owner managing the property. Thus, you create a partnership that you're both in line with the same focus. I think that is key.  

I don't believe all property managers are in line with your prerogatives because they get paid when tenants move out and move in and when repairs need to be made. It benefits them when things go wrong. You want nothing to go wrong. Obviously, it's going to go wrong but you want limited things to go wrong. When you have a partner that's managing the property, they have the same way of thinking. 

Josh: Yes, yes. That's great advice. That's definitely good advice. A lot of people look at property managers the same way that they'll look at agents. "An agent just cares about the transaction. They make money if you buy. They make money if you sell."  

Stockbrokers, they don't care if you're making or losing money. They just want the transaction fee. A lot of managers are like that. A lot of agents and a lot of brokers are the same way. That's fantastic feedback. 

Will:I guess if you could find another option, if you were going to go big, you're going to get ten, 15, 20 doors, another way to do it possibly would be to find, and this could be risky. I knew a property manager, somebody who started out on her own.  

Maybe they managed with a big company and now they've gone out on their own and they're hungry to get doors, maybe you bring them in as a partner so that they're in line with your goals. Incentivize them, in other words, to keep the costs down. Ultimately, you may pay a little more out of it, but at least they're operating it as the business as you should be operating. 

Brandon:Yes, yes. That's awesome. 

Brandon:Let's go talk a little bit about flipping in a high end area because again, I flip houses sometimes that are $15,000, $20,000, $25,000, $30,000. You're flipping houses that are a bit more than that. 

Josh: To get there, he actually probably started smaller though, didn't you? 

Will:Yes. I didn't start... 

Josh: Not to tick you off, Brandon or anything but maybe we should work our way up to the luxury flips from the beginning. What do you think? Is that a good idea? 

Brandon:Sure, let's do it. 

Will:I think that's a great idea, Josh. 

Brandon:How did you get in to the luxury market then? Let's talk about your transition upward. 

Will:Okay. To talk about the transition, I'd have to talk about where I started, I guess. 

Josh: That's a great idea. 

Will:Back in, as you know, we had the bubble burst. 2007 here in California, the market started declining all of a sudden and quite rapidly. 2008, it took an absolute beating here in California as it did Las Vegas, Nevada, Phoenix, Arizona, a lot of the Florida markets, Ohio, basically across the country but some of the markets really got hit hard because they went up so high.  

California was probably one of the worst because it went up so high so fast. In 2004, you could buy a house here and six months later, it would have increased in value by $100,000 with you doing absolutely nothing, just holding it for six months. 

Josh: Yes. 

Will:It was just artificial. Anyways, when it crashed, everything really changed. When I saw the change, I saw an opportunity. I decided, "You know what? I need to move my focus from Texas buy and hold to buying here in Southern California in my own backyard,” which then gets rid of my managing property managers problem from across the nation and dealing with tenants and so forth and so on.  

I loved it. I didn't sell everything, man. I just started focusing here on rehabs. I bought a house. One of my first acquisitions for rehab-flips here in Southern California was just north of $300,000 on the acquisition. I quoted, I don't remember $60,000, $70,000 into it and I turned a really, really nice profit.  

I then repeated the process multiple times the following year, in 2010 and just really started building my business here. That's when I decided, "You know what? I'm going to sell my real estate in Texas and do 100% here. 

Josh: I used to live in SoCal. Where do you find a $300,000 house in that market? 

Will:Oh, all over the place, all over. On the San Fernando Valley, Santa Clarita Valley, even in LA, you'd find houses at $300,000. Again, we're talking from 2009 till we're in 2013 today so things have changed. They've gone down and they've gone back up and they're going up right now. $300,00 today, right now is going to buy you a 1,200 square foot, three-bed, two-bath in an older neighborhood. It's about all it's going to fetch. 

Brandon:There are still deals to be found is what you're saying? 

Will:There are still deals to be found. However, rehab-flipping is so popular because it's been on TV. You have the gurus. You have BP who is a big proponent of real estate investing. There are hundreds of thousands of members and all of a sudden real estate is popular throughout the country. You have all these people saying, "Hey, this is a vehicle that works. I want to get in it."  

We have so much investor competition particularly at the low end levels, $100,000 to $500,000 level and especially that $250,000 to $350,000 level here in Southern California. If there's any deal that pops out, it's got multiple offers because there are so many investors out there. Then, you tack on the wholesalers or wannabe wholesalers and they're making offers and it's a mess. It's very hard to compete in that level, in that price point. 

Brandon:Do you think all those flippers that are buying those up like crazy, are they still making a profit on all of them or are they paying too much and you think they're losing out? 

Will:I think it depends on their strategy. I think a lot of the strategy right now kind of goes back. It's a mix between rehab-flipping and the buy and hold for a short-term like everyone was doing in the bubble. 

 I think they are seeing that the market is appreciating and they're like, "Okay, if I can buy this now for this price, fix it up, place a tenant for about two years then re-fix up the retail and then dump it, I'll make a ton of money." I think there's a lot of this buy, hold, and then flip. 

Josh: Yes. 

Will:They're overpaying because that's the only way they can get in, but they're hoping to make it up on the appreciation side. 

Brandon:I think that's a crazy strategy. I think hoping for appreciation or hoping that the bubble kind of continues because I will say that we're definitely getting bubble-ish kind of territory and I think that it's just a dangerous strategy particularly for newer investors who may not have the understanding.  

I also worry that when you have a situation where there's a property that goes into multiple offers and it starts getting frenzied, people who don't have the experience are going to be the guys left holding the bag and ending up with the properties and they're like, "Wait, everybody bid my up. Now I've got this property. I didn't stick to my numbers. Now what do I do?" 

Will:Right. Now they're in trouble. I agree. We're going to have a bubble. One of my friends, Erin Norris, his father is Bris Norris is highly respected here in Southern California. He is pretty much the god as far as data and research and where the market is going. I listen to everything he says. I go to every time when he speaks and I get some insight from him.  

I see it coming. I see a bubble coming as does he. We don't know when that's going to explode. It's not happening from the same reasons it did in 2006 and 2007 and 2008 but it is happening. It's going to blow up. 

Brandon:Yes, yes. Do you have any advice for people who may be in your market or other similar markets that are experiencing these frenzied situations? My advice is set your numbers, stick to it, and walk away if the price goes above it. It's pretty simple. Do you have anything else beyond that? 

Will:Actually, simplicity is the key there. It's exactly that. It's buy right whether you're a buy and hold-er or you're a buy and flip-er. Buy right. That's where you work in your profit and then you have your cushion when something goes wrong. 

Brandon:You talked about how people are over-buying and the market's heating up. Eventually, it seems that in every market, every time this happens, the flippers are the ones kind of left holding the bag at the end, the ones that paid too much for property.  

The same cycle happens. We see it time and time again. I'm wondering what are you doing personally to prevent against that happening, if you paid too much for property, the market drops 20%, all of a sudden you're in trouble? 

Josh: He's not paying too much for the property, Brandon. 

Will:Exactly. I'm not paying too much for the property, A. I don't think it's the flippers who get left holding the bag. I think it's the speculators that are going to be left holding the bag. 

Brandon:Yes, you're right. 

Josh: What's the difference? I think some people might think of themselves as investors or flippers or buy and holders but really they are speculators. What would you define as speculator as? 

Will:In 2005, 2006, you grab a real estate map. You have a monkey close your eyes and you throw a dart at the map and you buy whatever property it lands on and six months later you make $100,000 for doing nothing and having zero IQ. That's just basically luck or speculating, whatever you want to call it.  

That's not investing. Investing is punching numbers, performing due diligence, knowing your market, having strategies both entrance and exit. 

Josh: Yes, yes. The counter to that is if a monkey goes and actually closes your eyes, it might be kind of cool. 

Will:It might be. 

Josh: Yes, yes. 

Will:You would like that. I know you'd like that. 

Josh: Yes. I've never really hung out with a monkey before. Yes, maybe one of these days. 

Brandon:I hang out with a monkey everyday over Skype. Parumph-ts! 

Josh: Oh! 

Will:Ouch! 

Brandon:Aren't I funny? That was almost as good as my knock-knock jokes. 

Josh: Oh, no. Let's get back... 

Brandon:That I won't bring out. 

Josh: Let's get back. 

Will:Thank you for sparing us, Brandon. 

Josh: Tell us about your first flip. You went from being this buy-hold guy to a flip-er. Tell us about that first flip deal and then we'll kind of scoot forward to this luxury thing that your friend, Brandon wants you to talk about. 

Will:Actually, what led me before I even did the...I didn't go from buy and hold to flip. I actually started doing land development and spec building in Texas before I went to flipping. 

That really gave me the good background for rehab-ing because building from ground up and then rehab-ing is different but it really gave me my start so that when I did my first rehab-flip here locally, I already had experience plus I did flip one over there in Texas or I had flip-ed a couple of them and some of them were rentals turned in to flips. 

Josh: Got you. You're killing me, man. I had an idea of what I was going to do and we got to go back now. Back to this land development stuff, tell us about that. Give us kind of a very quick overview and preview of what that looked like and why you started doing it. 

Will:Sure. At the time, I really liked the Texas market. I'm a numbers guy and I love to look at properties and crunch numbers. I got the idea of purchasing dirt and developing it. My first purchase was a four-acre parcel. I turned that in to 13 duplex units and then I sold off all the lots and made pretty good money on that.  

I brought in partners for financing on that. My parents financed a good portion of that. They made great money on that. I did that. Then, we started buying individual lots and building houses on them. We started building duplexes and four-plexes, small apartment buildings, and did whole communities. 

Josh: What does somebody do to buy up a piece of dirt and develop it? What's entailed? I know it's a whole podcast in its own right but maybe you can give us the 30-second overview of what that looks like. 

Will:Sure. It's a very simple thing. It's very similar to buying a house. You're going to look for dirt and you're going to do your due diligence. You're going to run your numbers. You're going to see what the cost is to develop that dirt.  

That in itself has a bunch of due diligence things which is checking for environmental reports and getting geological reports. So much is going all the way to the fire department, figuring out how many fire units they need on the street and what the pressure is, if there's enough pressure to deliver that.  

There are all kinds of little things and intricate things in your due diligence to do. Other than that, it's really pretty simple. It seems complicated but it's really not. It's like buying a house. 

Josh: How did you learn about that? 

Will:Just did it. I never read a book. I never did it before, never talked to anybody about it before. Just decided, "Hey, this looks like a good thing to do." 

Josh: Okay, okay. Jump on in and get your hands dirty, huh? 

Will:Yes. That's it. Experience is the best educator. 

Brandon:Yes. That's awesome. 

Josh: Got it. 

Brandon:That's a good tweet-able topic I can put on the show notes. For those who are wondering where the show notes are, that is BiggerPockets.com/show32. 

Brandon:That's show notes at BiggerPockets.com/show32. 

Josh: 29. 

Brandon:No, 32. I did it right this time, Josh. 

Josh: 70% rule says you buy a property for 70% of the after-repair value minus repairs. On these higher end properties, are you looking at those numbers? Does the 70% rule still apply? How does it work? 

Will:The 70% rule does apply but not always. It depends. I always tell people, rules are guidelines and they're not hard and fast. They are not silver bullets. I just posted this I think yesterday or last night.  

The thing is you can buy at 75% and do great. You can buy at 77% and make money. You can also buy at 70% and lose money. It depends on your situation. It depends on the investment itself.  

Here's one of my rules; guidelines, if you

Will:if you are going to buy at the 70% rule, in most markets you are going to do perfectly well except if you start getting under the $100,000 exit prices and below. After you repair it, the value of the property is $100,000 or less, 70% is going to make you very little to no money, if not a loss. You got to use the 65% rule or maybe even the 60% rule when you get under the low, low properties.  

When you get in to the super high end stuff like the $3 million properties, you buy at 70%, you'll probably make money. You will make money but your cash on cash return might be so small compared to the risk that you took and the time. It might not be worth it. You might have to use a 65% rule on a multimillion-dollar project. 

Josh: Got you. 

Brandon:That's really good advice. 

Will:You have to take the rule in to consideration and make adjustments accordingly. The only way you know those adjustments is by running numbers over and over again and taking experiences from people like myself or others or yourself if you have them and knowing what works here and what works there. 

Josh: Got you. That's great. That's great. How do you comp those high end properties? I know a property in the three, two neighborhood is pretty easy but when you've got these higher end deals, there are a lot of intricacies. There are a lot of things that really stand out. The gold bathtub, does that add to the value? Does it take away? You got the infinity pool. Is that good? Is that bad? Are there any tips on comp-ing those higher end properties? 

Will:How do you comp high end properties? How does the turtle cross the road? Very carefully. You are very careful in comp-ing because... 

Josh: Wasn't that the chicken? 

Will:Whatever. Doesn't matter. Be careful if you're crossing the road. Comp-ing a multimillion-dollar property, typically these properties are larger in lot size and they're typically not conforming. What I mean by conforming is in a regular neighborhood where you have 50 or 100 three-bed, two-bath, 1,200-, 1,800-square foot houses.  

In multimillion-dollar properties, you can have one that's 5,000 square feet, one that's 2,500 square feet, and one that's 10,000 square feet. None of those three are comparable but in the luxury market you still have to use some of them to get them because there's not going to be three solid comps that are model matches because there's no such thing as a model match.  

It is a real art form comp-ing luxury market properties. That would be a show in itself to go in and dive. That's a long explanation, to be honest. 

Brandon:All right. Cut it down to 30 seconds. What are the basics? 

Will:The basics are just like a conforming property is your looking for the closest you can find. When you're looking under conforming property, you're looking within half a mile typically. In the luxury market, you're going out a mile or even two if you have to because the properties are so big. That is okay as long as they're in the same type of area. 

You want to pay close attention to adjusting for square footage, adjusting for amenities, pools, guest houses, lot sizes, horse facilities, any other amenities that they might have. Then, you would want to take in to consideration one property might be on a main street or close to it because a lot of these big properties are and some are away tucked up in the hills or something like that. You make adjustments for that as well.  

Finally, view. View is a huge factor in price. You can have a model match and one house can be worth $300,000 more just because it has a view of the ocean or views of the mountains. 

You have to factor in all those things and make adjustments accordingly. 

Brandon:That's great. That was helpful. Awesome. Awesome. All right. What kind of upgrades are you doing on these properties? What are you finding are getting you the best bang for the buck in the higher end deals? 

Will:On the higher end stuff, I'm pretty much gutting the inside and starting new and rebuilding the inside of the house and doing every new finish I possibly can. The reason being is most of the stuff I'm buying, it's either an REO or a short sell and it's already thrashed. It's already outdated.  

I love walking into the house, beautiful area, beautiful exterior, beautiful grounds and walking into a house with a tub, the paint tile tub, the 1960's, the wood paneling on the walls, the dark, dingy, old, outdated crap. That's shouts money, money, money. I love to see that stuff because I turn that into beauty and when it's done, it sells. 

Brandon:You're like an artist. You're not even a flip-er. You're just an artist. 

Will:Yes, almost. It is like that. You know what? It's funny you mentioned that. I almost considered trying to take an interior design course because it's that complicated. As I go from one property to another, one's a Spanish-Med, one's an English Tudor, one's a traditional, one's a modern contemporary and your finishes have to flow with that.  

If you mess that up, you're going to mess up your buyer's pool. You really got to pay attention to what finishes you put in these luxury houses and what the people that are looking in that area, what the majority of them are going to like. 

Brandon:Are you using an architect to help you with working the insides or were you doing it on your own? 

Will:No, I don't. Architect would be if I was changing floor plans dramatically. I've moved walls here and there and taken out a wall or flipped one. I don't need an architect for that. I do that myself. 

Brandon:Interior designers? 

Will:I've hired interior designers just to come in. Ultimately, I have realized that they are just people with opinions. I seem to really work well with my agent who also happens to have an interior decorating background. Between my choices and what I think should and then her opinion back, we’re a great team and everything seems to flow and work. It's worked for me. 

Josh: Nice. 

Brandon:You're going to get a lot of hate mail from interior designers, by the way. 

Will:Probably. That's all right. 

Brandon:Now we're talking about the luxury flip here. You have a post; it's one of the longest posts in BiggerPockets and about the "Seven figure spread" flip. Can you tell us about that? 

Will:Absolutely. That is my baby right now. That is my bread and butter. I bought that property, I was in escrow at the end of 2010 I believe. The bank who owned the property made misrepresentations. They represented that they owned the whole property which consisted of slightly over seven acres, horse facilities, rivers, stalls, et cetera, et cetera. 

As it turns out, when they foreclosed they made a huge mistake when they did the loan. They only encumbered the house portion of the property. When they foreclosed, they were only able to foreclose on the house portion.  

Josh: Whoopsie. 

Will:When they sold it, marketed it, yes, sweet to who? The guy that got foreclosed on. Talk about bank erring in your favor, collecting on your dollar and passing dough. The guy got free land and then encumbered it and sold it. 

Bottom-line is we were in...I said, "Well, you can't sell me the whole property so you got to reduce the price." They didn't want it. They were like, "Buy it at this price or walk." I said, "BS." I filed a lawsuit for misrepresentation. Long story short, we finally settled out of court. I got the property for the reduced price that I wanted. 

Brandon:Including the land? 

Will:No. They can't sell me the land. 

Brandon:Right, right, right. Okay. 

Will:Then, I got in contact with the attorney of the owners of the land and offered to purchase the property. We negotiated back and forth. I got the price that I felt I was comfortable paying, bought it as a separate transaction and since then I've pieced the entire property back to its original size. Now it's an entire property again.  

Then, I've been rehab-ing this thing for a year. I've had a tremendous amount of problems with the city on this property. When I bought the house, it was down to the studs. The only thing on there was the roof that was like maybe two or three walls with dry wall on it.  

I'm almost done. I'm two or three weeks away from finishing this thing. I'm really excited. It's really close. It's been a long process but it's going to turn out to be really, really good. I'm really looking forward to having the final. I'm doing a whole video series on this as well. I had the before stuff done. I had some during stuff done. I just had some more during stuff done and I'm going to have the final once it's staged. 

Brandon:That's awesome. 

Will:I will be posting that on BP and in that thread of course. 

Josh: Brandon introduced this as the "Seven figure" deal and I think the loyal listeners would be mad at me for not pressing and pushing your buttons a little bit and asking you if this deal is going to turn out to be a true "Seven figure" deal.  

In the end, you've got a couple of weeks left after all the nonsense with the buying of two lots and the time that's taken to put this together, are you going to end up over seven figures? 

Will:Absolutely. 

Josh: That is fantastic. Well, I will expect a check donation to BiggerPockets in the order of 5% when all is said and done. 

Will:I see. What did Josh and company do to earn that 5%? 

Josh: You know what? I don't know. I just thought it would be a nice gift because you like me so much. 

Brandon:Silence. Sit. 

Josh: That's exciting. That's awesome. 

Will:Actually, as Josh knows, I've been a donor on BP and a long-time member and moderator and definitely will be donating again because BP has been a huge part of my education, my growth in my network. You know the old saying, "Your network is equal to your net worth." 

Josh: I was just busting your chops about that, man. 

Will:I know that. 

Josh: For anyone listening, Will has been on the site for years and years and years and years and we know each other. We've hung out. Yes. It's not like I'm busting the chops of somebody I just met here. 

Will:By the way, when's the next In-N-Out hookup, man? We got to get that going. 

Josh: Obviously, Will's buying. Next time I'm in Southern California, probably somewhere around the holidays, Christmas time, we'll do it. 

Will:We'll make a deal. You write the airplane ticket. I buy the burger. 

Josh: Nice. Yes! That's a good trade. 

Brandon:Nice. I drove by the "Seven figure" flip back when I was down in Southern California. I didn't get to go inside that one, but I went inside one of your other properties, Will and it was awesome. It was awesome. Did you sell that one yet, the other one that was down the street? 

Will:Well, it's actually in escrow. I'm still in the middle of the rehab. I've completed all the demo. We've got the floors installed. We're painting as we speak. We're building the kitchen cabinets as we speak.  

I'm probably a good halfway done with that but it's been sold since demo phase which is really amazing to sell a multimillion-dollar home before they even see the finished work. They saw some of my finished work down the street on the "Seven figure spread" deal. They know what I do and what I will be doing and my taste. They locked it up and we're in escrow. 

Brandon:That's awesome. 

Josh: That's awesome, man. That's awesome. All right. We're sort of coming to the close of the show. We're going to go to our Fire, Fire, Fire Round. That was awesome. 

Brandon:Thank you. 

Josh: Yes. The Fire Round is where we hit you really quickly with questions and you give us brief answers. Most of these questions come from the BiggerPockets forums. These are all questions that people have asked on the site. Brandon, why don't you kick it off? 

Brandon:All right. Brick house, do you paint it? Is it possible or a bad idea? 

Will:Wow. Brick house, we don't have brick houses here in California because they crumble. That's very popular in Texas. I never painted over the bricks. I have seen them painted white and other colors. I prefer to leave the beauty of the brick, but if they're totally thrashed, if you're trying to go cheapo, then paint them. If you really want them nice, I would replace them. 

Josh: I'll tell you what, in Denver here, blonde brick is really, really popular. It's been around. I guess it's from the clays here are more of a blonde-ish color so they built with blonde bricks back in the 1950's and 1960's and so on. A lot of out-of-towners hate it, hate it. 

The flip-ers, at least where I am, in the neighborhoods around me are absolutely going and painting the bricks. It really does, I guess, depend on where you're at. 

What kind of appliances do you put in? Obviously, I'm guessing probably stainless on the high end. On these million-dollar houses, are you putting in the $20,000 Wolf refrigerators that are super wide? What are you doing there? 

Will:Yes, on the luxury stuff. On the regular stuff, the $300,000 to $400,000 or $500,000 houses here, everything was always stainless steel appliances. Over here in California, you don't have to supply refrigerators. It's not typical so I never would. I would do everything but the refrigerator, washer and dryer. It would be the range, stove, oven, dishwasher, and microwaves. 

On the luxury stuff though, you have to. They're not just a slide-in refrigerator. They're the built-in's and they're the double door and 48-inch and larger. The ranges are larger. You're doing vent hoods every time. Yes, it's high end. We're talking $20,000 something for your appliances 

Josh: Yes. Yes. 

Brandon:That's crazy. That's awesome. When buying, how much do you usually plan on for closing costs? Do you have a percentage or a hard number you use? 

Will:Closing costs as far as the acquisition is concerned? 

Brandon:Yes. 

Will:Acquisition costs are so low because typically each year on locally it's primarily customary for the seller to pay title, for each of the party to pay half of escrow, their portion.  

Really you have escrow, some recording fees, a couple of low, small junk fees, and everything else is pro-rated stuff like your taxes and insurance. It's all pro-rated. I don't count them as closing costs. I count them as holding costs because you're paying taxes in advance to hold it. 

The closing costs are so minute even on a multimillion-dollar property. Whatever the figure is, I plug it in. 

Brandon:Got it. 

Will:I don't like to use percentages or anything like that. There are no rules of thumb. I just take the actual from the hood. Here's my cost and I plug it in. 

Brandon:Got it. 

Josh: Cool. 

Will:The rules I use, if I'm using the 65% or the 70% rule or the 75% rule, that already takes into account those minor closing costs on acquisition and you're closing costs on exit. 

Brandon:Okay. All right. 

Josh: Cool. How do you find a great real estate agent? Do you have any tips on working with agents once you do find them? 

Will:Yes. Today it's a little bit different than it was several years ago. I'll kind of go with what I would do today because that's more relevant. I would suggest that you contact as many agents as you come in contact with. You should talk to them. You should probably work on agents who have a decent amount of experience. They're not rookies.  

The best thing to do really is to form that immediate quick relationship. Get them to like you. If they're not going to like you, why are they going to give you the deal other than anyone else they've worked with over the past X amount of years. 

You really have to get in there by proving something and getting them to like you. What I do is I prove them...our conversation will go something like, "Hi. Mr. and Mrs. Agent. My name's Will. I'm a real estate investor. I'm a real one." I'll throw a joke. I'll say, "I'm a real one. I'm not one of those guys fresh out of camp." I'll try to get them to laugh.  

Then, I'm going to say, "I can prove it. You're welcome to look up my company. You can see all my closed transactions," and I kind of go there. If you don't have that, obviously you can't say that. You can figure out something else to say, to joke with them, make them like you, and get them in the door. 

Give them a reason why working with you is going to be beneficial to them because a lot of people take the line of, "What can I get? What can I get?" It's "No. What can I give you, Mr. and Mrs. Agent?" 

Josh: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I was going to make a joke there but I think it's opportunity. Will just kept going. 

Brandon:Story of your life, Josh. 

Josh: Yes, I know. Oh, man. I feel like Eeyore. 

Brandon:I can tell you a joke. Knock, knock? Just kidding. Will, have you ever been robbed, specifically your property sites? 

Will:Yes. One time, knock on wood... 

Josh: For extra effect, Will knocked on wood. 

Will:Yes because I don't like that to happen. I was lucky in the sense that they only took one item. For whatever reason, they took my slide-in range and stove but the brand-new dishwasher was there. The microwave was there. I don't know why they didn't take it all. Either they ran out of time or they heard something. They came through the back door.  

I happen to have a personal belief that it was an inside job. It was one of the workers. Somebody was there who knew the area and were just after that one specific item. 

Josh: Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. All right. What about wholesalers? Do you buy from wholesalers? What would you want to say to potential wholesalers? 

Will:I can say that I'm still a virgin, that I've never bought a wholesale deal before. Come on. Bring on the joke. 

What advice would I give the wholesalers? I would say add value please. Stop looking on the MLS, locking up a deal at or just below asked price and then sending them off to me at or above asked price. You've added no value whatsoever. You've done no due diligence, no research. Add value. You add value by being a good negotiator, by finding that deal. 

There are some misconceptions. We were having this conversation on BP. Somebody was asking about how do you wholesale off the MLS. I gave some intuition and what not. Then, one of the responses was, "I guess it's thought of as 'bad' in the industry to buy off the MLS as a wholesaler." They missed the point entirely. It's not bad to buy off the MLS. It's bad if you do it wrong. It's perfectly fine to do a wholesale deal off the MLS but add value. 

Brandon:Yes. That's awesome. 

Josh: Yes. Get a good deal is the bottom-line. 

Will:Get a good deal, yes. Know your numbers. Learn what the exit value is, the true exit value, not some inflated you-wish-you-could-get price. Learn how to evaluate rehab costs. You don't have to be down to the nickel or the dime. You can be within several thousand dollars. Don't say $25,000 when it's $50,000. 

Brandon:Yes. Yes, that's true. That's hard for a lot of people. 

Will:It's really not if you put in a little bit of effort. It's really not. 

Brandon:That's really good advice. One thing, if I could just jump in here and plug something real quick, the BiggerPockets has a calculator. It's the House Flipping Calculator. I think it's pretty awesome.  

It helps wholesalers or flip-ers be able to look at all the numbers and figure out actually what a good deal is and what a good deal isn't. Anyway, I haven't tried that yet. Just go to BiggerPockets.com/calc and you'll be able to play with that. 

Next Fire Round question, equity partners, how should people structure them? 

Will:Again, very carefully. Involve somebody that you're familiar with. Don't take on equity partners that are strangers you've never worked with before and don't know. That would be one. 

Two, I would highly recommend you have everything drafted and drawn up by an attorney. Don't try and [Inaudible][57:35]. 

Brandon:Okay. 

Will:There are a lot of intricacies. There are a lot of things that can happen. He can die. You could die. You could both die. Who dies first? What happens if one goes bankrupt? Who's responsible for this? 

Josh: Wow! This is morbid. Death. Bankruptcy. What else can happen? 

Will:Whatever. You have to cover your bases is my point. You're not going to be able to do that on your own without having legal knowledge and the background in such contracts. Get an attorney. It's the cost of doing business. 

Josh: Yes. Yes, yes. You know what? That advice is probably advice I'd pass on to any and all investors. If you think you're going to get in to real estate investing and can skip on paying attorneys, you're crazy. I really think that a prepared investor who takes their business seriously has legal counsel prepared from the very beginning. 

Will:Right. Yes. You're just looking for trouble if you don't. It's like buying a house. Why would you skip the home inspection? I know inside and out of the house but I don't skip inspection or the termite inspection. Why? Because it costs hardly nothing compared to the grand scheme of things. It's the cost of doing business. 

Brandon:Yes. All right. Final Fire Round question, which wasn't really that fiery…Well, it was fiery but it wasn't that fast. Any tips on using an iPad as a real estate investor? 

Will:Oh my goodness! I am in love with my iPad. 

Brandon:I knew that. That's why I added this question. 

Will:That's the best thing since sex. Can I say that on the air? 

Brandon:Sure. 

Will:The iPad literally took me and my office wherever I was going. My office is now wherever I am. Recently, I was in Hawaii and I'm sitting over at the deck looking at the ocean on my iPad logging in to BiggerPockets. I can work from wherever I'm at.  

When I'm at the job site before, years ago, I had my phone. It was a smartphone. I finally got the smartphone and I could do little stuff there but it was so small and it's hard to do.  

With the iPad, I get all of my e-mails easily, readable. I send e-mails back and forth. I could sign real estate documents. If I get a contract coming in, I can sign them and not just DocuSign but there are better programs out there. Actually, it's DocuSign, DocuSign Ink for the iPad. It is fantastic. I can sign all my documents and send them back. I don't have to use paper, pen and I could do it in the field. 

Brandon:That's awesome. 

Josh: Your wife is going to be a little upset if she listens to the show. Now we've pissed off interior designers and your wife. Your listeners are going to be really happy about all the great advice you've given. 

Will:Well, I hope so. 

Josh: DocuSign is great. There are others like EchoSign. There are other products out there. I use EchoSign for all my signatures. I know a lot of real estate folks use DocuSign and various others. Great advice. Very, very good advice. 

We got to get to the close of this thing. I know we could keep talking and talking to you. Instead, we're just going to get to the Famous  

For. I thought you were going to jump in on that, Will. 

Will:I'll leave that stuff to you guys. 

Josh: Oh. All right. Will, what is your...holy cow! Okay. I'm sorry. I have to interrupt this show with an important announcement. Dead seriously, this is live. I got a text from my wife telling me that Dunkin' Donuts is opening up in Denver.  

I kid you not. It is important enough to interrupt this show to tell you. I am such a huge Dunkin' Donuts fan. There aren't any in this entire city. The fact that one is opening up, I'm ecstatic. Thank you, Dunkin' Donuts for listening to my chanting. 

Will:Josh, how much did you get paid for that? A. B, I can't believe that was the excitement now. I thought you were having some great, fantastic multimillion-dollar real estate moment there. It’s about donuts? 

Josh: Dunkin' Donuts and there was no payment made whatsoever on that. I will plug them till my death. I love that company. I love them. I love them. 

Famous For, let's get back to it. Sorry, guys. Just put up with it. What is your favorite real estate book? 

Will:My favorite real estate book, I would say my favorite real estate book is probably "Trump Style Negotiation" by Mr. Ross. George Ross is an attorney for The Man, Mr. Trump. He wrote a book on "Trump Style Negotiation." That's probably one of my favorites because I believe everything you do in real estate it's all about the negotiation because that's where you make your money.  

You negotiate a better price, you make better money. You negotiate better product on your rehab materials, you make more money. Everything's a negotiation. It's not just real estate. That can relate to anything really. 

Brandon:Yes. Yes. I tell you, Jay Scotts got an awesome, awesome, awesome article on negotiation. We'll point to that on the show notes at BiggerPockets.com/show32. Will also pointed this and the other books. Yes, it's definitely one worth checking out. I do agree on negotiation. Great tip. 

Favorite business book? 

Will:Favorite business book, that actually is also a real estate book. It's called "Real Estate Finance and Investment Manual." It was written by Jack Cummings. It is a monstrosity of a book like 500 and something pages. I have the revised and expanded version. 

It's everything from finance to how to analyze deals and investments. It is like the Bible for me. It's really...how should I say it? [Inaudible][1:03:23]. It's got all the complexities, name it. That's why I enjoy it. 

Brandon:Right. Nice. Nice. What about hobbies? I know you've got kids. What do you do for fun? 

Will:Fun, yes. The fun thing for me is I still play ball. I play softball a couple of times a week. I play tournaments on the weekends. In fact, I'll be up in Tahoe in a couple of weeks playing in a tournament in Tahoe. That's my love since I was negative six months old. I think my mom has a picture of me playing baseball in her tummy. That's my biggest love.  

Then, with the family, we go out in the boat in the summer. We go up to the cabin in Big Bear, go snowboarding in the winter. I spend a lot of time with the family going out. 

Brandon:We'll come out to Colorado and we'll go skiing. 

Will:Absolutely. I'm looking forward to that. I've never boarded over there. 

Brandon:Nice. Yes, yes. It will be fun. 

Josh: Last question: what do you think sets apart the investors who do really, really well and succeed from those who don't, who would just kind of disappear? 

Will:Great question. I've always been of the belief that those with the drive and the determination and the I'm-not-going-to-give-up-and-quit-I'm-going-to-go-full-blow-no-matter-what, those are the ones who succeed. 

The ones that get up there because they think they're either going to make easy money or maybe they don't think it's going to be so easy but they give up because there are a lot of hurdles in real estate.  

Let's face it. It is a roller coaster ride both physically and emotionally. If you don't have the wherewithal inside of you to get through that, those are the ones that don't make it all the way. 

Brandon:Cool. 

Josh: That's definitely good advice. I've got one last question for you. You've been around longer than most people we've interviewed so far on BiggerPockets. I think you're already a pretty good test study on how to use the site. Maybe really, really fast you can just tell people how they can jump on BiggerPockets and use it to their benefit as a real estate investor. 

Will:Absolutely. I'd be happy to, Josh. BiggerPockets has been a huge part of my investing career. When I started out, I didn't have BiggerPockets. Had I have, I might have been able to avoid quite a few investing mistakes including some that I made acquisition side in Texas for buy and hold's. 

I would say that some of the mistakes that I see often are people that are coming in there and are asking for things and they're looking for things.  

One of the things that I noticed was by being part of the community, asking questions and answering questions and getting to know people and becoming colleagues with people gives you exposure. Then, when you need something and you ask for it, you're more apt to get it because people already have that relationship with you and hopefully, like you. 

Use BP as an educational source as far as reading but don't just leave it there. Get involved. Get involved in those forums. Get involved with colleagues. Talk to colleagues.  

I have a number of friends I consider very close friends that are BP members and quite a few of them I met on BP. A lot of them I've invited to local real estate clubs and now we're even closer friends because we hang out together in person as well.  

Use BP as your entire real estate source. It could be a resource for money, for funding, a resource for friends, a resource for deals, a resource to sell your deals, a resource to get an attorney, a resource to get a better idea on how to do certain rehab projects, whatever. 

Even people with the grandest of experience in real estate can learn from other people on BiggerPockets. Stay in active and utilize that site for all of those things would be my advice. 

Brandon:Awesome. 

Josh: That's great. That's great. Awesome. All right, man. We listened well. It's been a lot of fun. I think we're going to have to do a follow-up. I know Brandon and I have actually talked about that story. We've done 32 shows with 32 individuals. Actually, some of it were he and I but there are a couple of people we want to bring back and you're certainly on the list. Stay tuned for that down the line.  

That's it. Thanks for being a part of the community, for sharing everything you've shared, and obviously, we're looking forward to hearing about the close of the million-dollar house. 

Will:Thank you, Josh. Thank you, guys both for having me. I had a great time. Hopefully, we'll do this again. 

Brandon:Awesome. Thanks, Will. 

Josh: All right, guys. That was Will Barnard. I thought that was really fantastic, a lot of cool stuff that we haven't really spoken about previously with other flip-ers and wholesalers. Will does pretty much everything as we've said and as we've talked about. Hopefully, we've exposed you to some new ideas and things. 

Thank you very much for listening. As always, if you are not already doing so, please make sure to check us out on Facebook at facebook.com/biggerpockets, on YouTube at youtube.com/biggerpockets.  

If you want more YouTube videos, let us know, by the way. We definitely want to be putting more out but let us know what kind of videos you want us to do and we'll do our best to make those happen.  

Otherwise, if you're not on BiggerPockets, of course you want to join up today. Get involved. Being active on BiggerPockets gives you exposure to guys like Will. He's on BiggerPockets every single day. He's got thousands of posts now, I think. He's there to help out as are the rest of us. Definitely get involved and active. 

That's really about it. 

Brandon:By the way, Will has 10,204 posts on BiggerPockets. 

Josh: 10,204 posts. That is a lot of time spent helping other people. 

Brandon:Yes. That's awesome. 

Josh: The thing about that is not only is he helping other people but he's helping himself. He's building credibility. That's awesome. 10,204. Holy smokes! 

Brandon:Yes. 

Josh: Wow. Wow. All right, guys. That's about it. If you haven't left us a rating, a review or anything like that on iTunes, hopefully, you'll jump on iTunes and do that. We definitely appreciate all those ratings and reviews. If you love the show, jump on the show notes. Let us know that.  

Tell people. Spread the word about the podcast on Facebook, on Twitter, LinkedIn, everywhere you can. We're trying to build this show up, help more people out. Hopefully, you guys can help us do that. 

Thank you so much for listening. I'm Josh Dorkin signing off. 

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