Getting into out of state investing

Getting into out of state investing

Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 17 posts · 4 votes

Hello BP community !

This is my first post so apologies if I am asking questions that have been asked or posting in the wrong spot :/

I am 31 years old and looking to get in the market. I have some money saved up and work a full time job. I live in LA and the market is just too hard to enter here with the high prices and the insane amount of competition. All roads seem to lead me to out of state (Turnkey) investments. The whole idea of this makes me very nervous. You have to put a lot of faith in a company to buy a house unseen and then trust that it will be managed correctly. 

I understand that doing this will cut my profit margins significantly but it will also allow me the freedom to keep working and enter a market that would otherwise be very challenging. Any thoughts ? 

Does anyone have any Turnkey companies that they trust and recommend ? Any specific reading or resources I should be looking at before jumping in ?

I did notice a lot of posts from Ali Boone - http://www.biggerpockets.com/users/hipsterali & Chris Clothier http://www.biggerpockets.com/users/memphisinvest . Has anyone had experience working with them ? 

Thanks !

David 

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Eric FernwoodBusiness Member
Realtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2014 · 997 posts · 1k+ votes
12y

Hello @David B. ,

Buying turnkey is only a purchase method, it does not assure you that you are getting a good property or that you are going to get good tenants. Also, a property is no better than the jobs around it so if the economy is going down in the location in which you buy, what is a good investment today could be a disaster in 6 months. I believe that the process should be:

1. Determine where and what kind of property will generate a sustained positive cash flow and is located in an area likely to appreciate over time. I call this a property profile. (I will elaborate on this later.)

2. Once you have determined the best property profile for you, then you need to consider all your purchase options in that specific location. Whether or not you buy a property turnkey or some other approach is a trade-off you can evaluate based on differences in money, time and risk.

Below is a diagram illustrating the process.

Below I will explain about each block in the illustration.

Property Profile

There are two parts to a property profile: where and what.

Where

• Choose a city which is experiencing sustained growth and is likely to have continued growth. See population changes by state here.

• A rental property is no more valuable than the jobs around it. The local chamber of commerce or university will likely have the information you need. Avoid boom towns where the jobs are here today and gone in 5 years. An example would be a town fueled by a major construction project (a dam, pipeline, high speed train, etc.). Once the project is complete all the construction jobs will vanish as will your renters and you will likely have a disaster on your hands. Job growth and population increase are the basis of long term appreciation.

• Check the landlord/evictions laws. For example, in Las Vegas the typical eviction takes less than 30 days and costs less than $500. I have heard from clients that evictions in California (and some other states) can take up to a year if the tenant actively resists and costs thousands of dollars in legal and other fees (not to mention the accumulated damage over the extended eviction period). No investor initially worries about evictions, until one happens to you. So, check the appropriate laws and regulations before you buy. Your simplest option would be to talk to local property managers. They deal with such issues every day.

• Remember that you need to have sufficient cash reserves so you can carry the property for several months if necessary. This dictates the price range of properties that you can afford. I would start by looking for rental properties in the cities you are considering and then looking for sales comps of similar properties.

• State/city/county income taxes. Most states have a personal income tax. This can significantly impact your return. For example, a property with a 5% return in Nevada, Texas, Washington or Wyoming will actually earn you 5% (subject to your own state income tax and the ability to deduct from your state/federal taxes paid in other states). If the same property was located in areas with taxes you would also have to adjust down the return based on these taxes.

• A city where climate is not a major factor. For example, people rarely move during heavy snowfall seasons in the North East. Or, if the population swells and contracts rapidly with the season as in south Florida where rentals tend to be seasonal.

• A location where annual maintenance costs are reasonable. Higher costs are sometimes due to climate or how the homes were constructed. For example, in heavy snow country you will have to include snow removal costs and more physical damage to driveways and the structure in your annual maintenance cost provision.

What

Now that you have a location that may be profitable, you need to know what to buy. And, what is a good type of property in Cleveland will not necessarily be a good type of property in Phoenix. So, you need to determine four criteria for each specific local, which are listed below. Your best source will be interviewing three or four local property managers. Tell them you are staring out and that you are looking for a property manager to work with.

• Type: Condo, high rise, single family, duplex, single story, two story, etc.

• Configuration: Two bedroom, three car garage, mud room, etc.

• Location: Usually a very specific area. For example, west of 23rd St and south of the river, etc.

• Rent Range: If the majority of the population to which you want to rent are willing and able to pay $1,000/Mo to $1,300/Mo. you should only be looking at properties that you can purchase, rehab and profitably rent in the same rent range.

I have a set of property manager interview questions which I use (I am a Realtor in Las Vegas and my practice is almost exclusively remote investors and I occasionally have to move my clients to a different property manager when the current one starts to go bad.), and I will be happy to send to you (or anyone else who want it). Just drop me an email.

Profitability

After talking to a few property managers you will have a very good idea of what properties rent best. The next step is to determine whether you can make money with these properties. Look on Zillow (or similar sites) for recent sales of such properties. Once you know the sale price of such properties and know what they will rent for (from talking to the property managers) you can use a tool I created to determine if you can make money. (Break-Even Calculator - see here for more information.)

Using this tool and data from Zillow, I looked at properties in three cities: Austin, TX; Cupertino, CA and Las Vegas, NV.

If the Break-Even Price is lower than the Actual Sold Price it is unlikely that properties in that city will generate a positive cash flow. As you can see in the table above the prices of properties in Cupertino (and possibly Austin) are too high relative to the rent to generate a positive cash flow. 

If you cannot make an acceptable level of profit, look somewhere else. 

Acquisition Method

At this point you are ready to consider your acquisition options. I believe this decision can be made through a spread sheet and a thorough evaluation of the property manager involved if you are considering turnkey. Even though you buy a property that has the potential to be profitable, only a good property manager can make it happen. Be very careful on choosing the right property manager. Once you evaluate this and you are satisfied, it is time to buy.

Remote Investing Considerations

• Choose a location where you would like to spend some time. When I was setting up manufacturing for a certain item (past life) I chose India as opposed to Vietnam or China. I like spending time in India. I find the other two places more challenging. Almost all of my clients are remote investors and they like to come to Las Vegas to "inspect" their properties once or twice a year. It is actually a vacation for them but they can deduct a portion of the trip cost from their taxes (in most countries). During winter, I find that Canadians are especially interested in "inspecting" their properties!

• As I mentioned before, be VERY aware of issues like: landlord laws (eviction process and costs), climate factors, population trends, job stability and rent stability.

David, I hope the above helps.

Eric Fernwood

FERNWOOD Team, KW VIP Realty520 Reviews
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  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 17 posts · 4 votes
    12y

    @Andrew Syrios Thanks for the blog post

    @Eric Fernwood Great info, I'll definitely make sure I do my research. 

    Since my original post I have explored a few different Turnkey outfits and all seem to be legitimate and offer a different product for each buyers preference. 

    If anyone has any companies they recommend I'd love to hear about them. 

    Anyone have experience working directly with these two ? 

    http://midsouthhomebuyers.com/

     I like the idea of this company because they have very inexpensive properties (50-70k). Ideally this would help me ramp up and get a whole bunch under my belt in a short period of time instead of putting all my money into 1-2 properties. The cash flow estimates see to be comparable to properties in the 100-200k range. 

    The other site I came across is 

    http://www.noradarealestate.com/Real-Estate-Invest...

    This site I have not had much luck digging up info on. I notice they have very high cash flow estimate averaging from $650-900 for SFH that cost 80-120k. This seems a little bit padded. What do you all think ?

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    The first person I would talk to is Chris if was looking for TK. Use him as benchmark for the others. He is being modest on here now, but he has 1500 of these under management with mostly repeat clients I think.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @David B.  Turnkey is not your only option, even out of state. The key is to establish the market you want to be in, understand the market as best you can and find people you trust to provide your boots on the ground support.  However, if you do want turnkey, you need to be really careful about who you rely on.  @Engelo Rumora is a great resource and his podcast would be awesome for you to listen to.

    It is possible to actually do fix & hold acquisitions out of state.  Again, you would have to find some folks to work with that you trusted, but it gives you the potential to get into properties with more margin for cash flow.

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Engelo is cool too especially if you are looking in Holy Toledo.

  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 17 posts · 4 votes
    12y

    @Matt R. I think that is great advice. Ideally that would be perfect if I could figure out 1-3 markets I have faith in and then build out a process on my own. 

    Does anyone have an opinion of what cities are the best for 

    high growth, high rental need, low crime, properties under 130k, and any other requirements anyone suggests throwing in when evaluating a proper market. 

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Right on David. I have not been to the local rei meet ups. I have been meaning to go to the womans one in the Val. At 130k I would be looking at AV, Palm Springs/Desert,  Bake or Vegas. Personally, Palm Spring or Vegas seems funner even if the math was off slightly.

  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 17 posts · 4 votes
    12y

    @Matt R. 

    Good call Matt. I guess the great thing about those places is they are close to home here in LA. I just dont know if it will be as easy to find places that will cashflow like Memphis or TX. Any idea on that ? :/ what does AV stand for ? 

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    I would definitely entertain Reno as well. I bit of a drive but you could always combo a fish or ski trip each time. All these areas I mentioned are in demand with Vegas being the most challenging for longer term rental occupants.

    AV Antelope Valley, LA county, Palmdale, Lancaster, Edwards Airforce Base kind of more Mojave but in play. 

    Cash flow as good as Memphis....perhaps but not on average maybe. Appreciation is what matters if you are longterm investor. Consider a smart Vegas property doubling in 10 years at 130k to 260k. That is 1000.00 appreciation a month averaged out. That will blow away any cashflow market heads up in the long run.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @David B. For obvious reasons, I'm a fan of the Dallas/Ft Worth area, and it meets all of your criteria. In fact, Jon Klaus posted the link to an article earlier, which highlighted the 50 safest towns in Texas. 27 of them were in the DFW area. Additionally, we have super strong job growth and some really awesome school districts, which is the key driver for desirability around here. At that ARV, I'd suggest the southern & eastern portions of Richardson ISD, portions of Garland & Plano, Carrollton, Farmers Branch, Hurst-Euless-Bedford, North Richland Hills & Keller. Again, that's an ARV under $130k. The hope would be for you to get into those properties cheaper than that.

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    A couple caveats for Texas in general. Not to rain on anyones investment parade but important reality check for investors.

    Incredibly high ever adjusting property taxes. 

    Crazy clay soil-  so most homes need or will need foundation repairs/maintance.

    You actually water the foundation like a lawn. 

    Mold issues up the ying yang. You must run AC even when vacant.

    Can cost hundreds if you get summer vacancies.

    These 3 facts can turn things upside down if you are not on top of it.

    The taxes on 130k are $3300 not bad if that was stable. But it as if you are hoping there is no appreciation or those taxes can go up. If it appreciates like Vegas those are now $6600 that becomes not comparably cool anymore. $66,000 for 10 years right out your wallet and no end game in site. Flip all day but double check tax math for any holds.

  • Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes
    12y

    @David B. As someone who has invested out of state and even out of country I can tell you there are many advantages to investing in a higher cash flow market and I definitely recommend it. If you have the right team in place it's like a hot knife cutting through butter and it's wonderful. But if you have the wrong people it's going to be your worse nightmare. If you take the time to really learn and vet the people you're working with you should be fine though . Just be extra extra careful with who your trust to rehab and run things. You can't get too many recommendations. 

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2013 · 309 posts · 150 votes
    12y

    @Matt R.  Taxes fluctuate yes, but not to the degree you are making it out to be. The state has been very careful in in writing it's property tax laws. There are limitations to increases in tax rates, and anything above those limitations must be approved by the voters.

    Property values is the dominant force in driving up property taxes, not the tax rates. You will actually find over a five year period, the tax increase has been flat to a slight increase in a majority of areas meaning zero or close to it. Not double, not even 25% increase. In fact the city of Fort Worth, and Fort Worth ISD have not changed their tax rates at all.

    To compare it to Las Vegas is a mistake. Property values in Texas are low and will remain low for a while, just because we have so much room to build and expand. If it's too expensive in area A, go to Area B and save some money.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Richard D. 

      Ok Richard then your saying the property does not appreciate in Texas which is what I have seen over time. and tax rates compared to other areas even without appreciation are double to triple .. take in the soil conditions the old etc etc. and its a pretty intense area to own rentals.. but its the economy that is the driver I would own there before Detroit .. but I think there are other markets that would warrant investors attention as well. Texas just cannablies its self  it creates new homes so inexpensively that existing rental stock really will never run up in value it will hold as a cap rate but you will never have the big appreciation push.. ( Austin excluded)

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2013 · 309 posts · 150 votes
    12y

    @Jay Hinrichs  I'm am not saying that property doesn't appreciate. I'm saying the taxes do not increase at the rate that Matt makes it sound like they do. For example, I've owned my home since 1993. The value of my property has quadrupled from the 31,000 I paid to 119,000 this year. The taxes have only increased by 40% over 21 years from $890 (1993) to $1340 this year.

    Soil, is a location issue, and could arise anywhere.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Richard D. 

      so do you expect the values to double or triple the next 10 years IE your home will become worth 240 to 360k? I know what a 360k home in Texas currently is depending on area it could be a mansion... like your thoughts on this

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Richard D.:

    @Jay Hinrichs  I'm am not saying that property doesn't appreciate. I'm saying the taxes do not increase at the rate that Matt makes it sound like they do. For example, I've owned my home since 1993. The value of my property has quadrupled from the 31,000 I paid to 119,000 this year. The taxes have only increased by 40% over 21 years from $890 (1993) to $1340 this year.

    Soil, is a location issue, and could arise anywhere.

    That is awesome and the lowest rate I have seen. I know they can vary and even in the same city. It looks like you hit the sweet spot. Did you check before you purchased?

    Thanks, 

    Matt

  • Engelo RumoraBusiness Member
    Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Hattie Dizmond:

    @David B.  Turnkey is not your only option, even out of state. The key is to establish the market you want to be in, understand the market as best you can and find people you trust to provide your boots on the ground support.  However, if you do want turnkey, you need to be really careful about who you rely on.  @Engelo Rumora is a great resource and his podcast would be awesome for you to listen to.

    It is possible to actually do fix & hold acquisitions out of state.  Again, you would have to find some folks to work with that you trusted, but it gives you the potential to get into properties with more margin for cash flow.

    Hi Hattie,

    Thanks for the mention :)

    I am always happy to help in anyway way and have no interest in plugging our business or model.

    Have a great day

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2013 · 309 posts · 150 votes
    12y

    I feel the standard calculation, of real estate values generally double every 20 years. My home is in an area of revitalization and growth, therefore is not part of the norm. Up until about five years ago the value of my home was on pace to meet the double every 20 years valuation. But a large number of home sales in the area, along with 4 new schools, business redeveloping the area because of undervaluation, has caused a surge in SFH values.

    Also, the addition of an additional bedroom and bathroom has helped. So I do not recommend basing norm from my home. I just used it as an example to aid in my argument that tax rates are limited. And to accept a false premise of doubling taxes over 10 years is not a good premise on deciding where to invest. Unless you plan on being ULTRA conservative. And over account for normal inflation.

  • Engelo RumoraBusiness Member
    Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Matt R.:

    Engelo is cool too especially if you are looking in Holy Toledo.

    Thanks Matt,

    Have a great day.

  • Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2014 · 113 posts · 43 votes
    12y

    I know Midsouthhomebuyers.  I've sold them several properties over the years.  Terry is a personal friend of mine and I can say he is legit.  A real straight shooter.  An honest, solid guy who knows what he is doing.    

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Richard D.:

    I feel the standard calculation, of real estate values generally double every 20 years. My home is in an area of revitalization and growth, therefore is not part of the norm. Up until about five years ago the value of my home was on pace to meet the double every 20 years valuation. But a large number of home sales in the area, along with 4 new schools, business redeveloping the area because of undervaluation, has caused a surge in SFH values.

    Also, the addition of an additional bedroom and bathroom has helped. So I do not recommend basing norm from my home. I just used it as an example to aid in my argument that tax rates are limited. And to accept a false premise of doubling taxes over 10 years is not a good premise on deciding where to invest. Unless you plan on being ULTRA conservative. And over account for normal inflation.

     Great job. And absolutely the lowest TX tax I have seen. The average tax rate for TX is 2.57%, you scored on that one. Thanks, Matt

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    12y

    Welcome ,  also first time.  Thanks to BP community I love the support and knowledge being share.  And thanks David for asking the question I too had in my mind. 

    Good luck David. B

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2014 · 107 posts · 15 votes
    12y

    Texas does have property appreciation, but it's just not the roller coaster ride that some states are.  You don't see houses rising at double digit rates of appreciation, but the flip side is that Texas definitely didn't get hit nearly as bad as other areas during the crash.  Yeah, we lost some value and some took a sizable hit to their equity but it was nothing compared to say Florida and California.

    And yes, in Texas we do have some annoying soil issues and the recent/current drought doesn't help that one bit.  However, I think that most of the foundation issues here are overinflated.  Talking to a local foundation company that works extensively with investors, I was told that many if not most of the foundation work they do is under $5k.  Yeah, that's still a good chunk of money but if you evaluate your properties with that in mind and budget for it, it's not typically a deal killer.  This is also the reason that you don't see basements in Texas.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2013 · 309 posts · 150 votes
    12y

    @Matt R.  I will take a property tax rate of 2.57% over any states Income tax. To get income tax rates that low in those states, you need to earn less than $12000 on average. Then you add that states property tax, and you end up paying more overall for properties outside the state of Texas in terms of taxation.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Richard D. 

    as long as you live in Texas.. but for say All the CA investors they still have to pay state income tax's and then very high Texas property tax's ...

    Of one should check on tax's before they purchase a property and run all the numbers.. and probably add another 100 a month for the eventuality of some foundation work.. And if you have to water the foundation I doubt the tenant is going to dig that water bill..

    Tricky stuff for sure... I always say the locals are the ones that make it work the best by far.

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