Turnkey Rental Property a good idea for a first-timer?
Homeowner · Palmdale, CA · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 6 votes
Turnkey Rental Property a good idea for a first-timer?
Most Popular Reply
Eric FernwoodBusiness Member
Realtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2014 · 995 posts · 1k+ votesHello @Cassandra Boyett ,
Buying turnkey can be an excellent purchase method but remember that this is only a purchase method, it does not assure you that you are buying in a “long term good” location, getting a good property or that you are going to get good tenants.
You have heard the old adage that the three most important things to consider in real estate are location, location and location. This is still true. When you are considering a property in any “location” you need to think long term. Do your homework and make an informed guess whether the state/city/area is still likely to be a good place to own a property in 15 or 20 years? What is happening today or this year is almost irrelevant because real estate is a long term (multiyear) proposition. Some of the key indicators you should consider are:
• Population migration - are people moving in or out? If they are generally moving out of the state/county/area then the value of your investment in 5 or 10 years is going to be much less than today. Here is a page that provide population shifts by city.
• The value of a property is no better than the jobs around it. This does not mean just that there are jobs, the earning power of jobs needs to be stable or increasing. For example, if the state/county/area trend is from manufacturing jobs to lower paying service jobs, your rent is going to go down and the value of your property will fall.
• Property price trends - If property prices are trending down in an area, that is because there is less demand. If there is less demand to purchase, then there will likely be less demand for renting in that area too. And, if property prices are going down, rents will also go down and even if you decide to cut your losses and sell you probably can’t even sell the property at break even.
The following two points are not criteria but something to keep in mind. 1) As long as you buy in a good area (see all the above), all but the worst mistakes will be corrected over time through appreciation, inflation and rent increases. However, if you buy in a bad (or trending down) area, there is little or nothing you can do to make money over the long term. 2) To quote a former president, "Trust, but verify"; never take others claims at face value. With the internet, you can validate any claims made by others. The data is there and all you have to do is to spend sometime and the claims will be either validated or you will know that you need to find someone else to deal with.
Below is the process model I recommend. The property profile and profitability are explained in details in this thread - http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/12/topics/1527...
Best Wishes,
Eric Fernwood
FERNWOOD Team, KW VIP Realty520 Reviews
106 Replies
- Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes11y
There's really no way to say what they "charge", because the sell of the property works just like if any other investor was selling it. They are going to make a profit, but that profit will be baked into the sell price.
How they work? Again, there isn't a single model. I can only tell you how Memphis Invest works, because I just got back from their event last weekend! They buy properties and completely rehab them, prior to selling them to buy & hold investors. They also will provide all the Property Management. About 1/4 of their current investors who were present at the event had never even seen their properties.
@Engelo Rumora also does turnkey properties in Ohio. He has a great podcast he did for BP. He's pretty low-key, when it comes to the sales pitch part. I'd recommend reaching out to him, making contact and then just talking to him about the process he uses.
If you're looking to buy & hold from out of state, I personally think turnkey is a good option, particularly at first. It certainly is a lot less risky than trying to do your own rehab remotely, without having a team in place locally.
Just my 2 cents.
- Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes11y
@Cassandra Boyett, welcome to BP. There have been a lot of threads on here about buying turnkey properties you might look some of them up. Aside from that the word turnkey means different things to different folks. Some think of buying a rental with a tenant already in it. Some think of a company who helps you buy a house, helps rehab it, and helps rent it. Most think of a house that has been rehabbed and has property management that goes along with the purchase.
Keep in mind you pay for having someone else buy, rehab, and rent the property. Turnkeys are usually at or even above normal market value. There are good turnkey providers, and there are those who will lie to you and sell you a ghetto house with new paint that will be a money pit. Please read through the articles. you will get lots of posts from folks who make money selling or doing referrals for turnkey properties. No matter what you do, there is a LOT of due diligence you need to do before buying.
- 11yClay SmithBusiness MemberInvestor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2013 · 419 posts · 244 votes
I like the idea of a turnkey for ones first investment. Builds credibility through experience. You won't get near the 2% rule. Might be closer to 1.20. Just be sure your cash on cash roi is good. Shoot for 80/20 loan with 20 year amortization when financing it. Use this experience to hone your processes and prove experience to prospective lenders.
LREI Property Management LLC4.6449 Reviews - Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes11y
I've always only bought turnkeys for myself. I think in a lot of ways, assuming you know how to do the due diligence properly, they lessen the risk tremendously while you are getting started in RE. By a lot of the load being taken off you, you can focus on learning what you need to know for rental properties. I love them, wouldn't trade them to do anything else personally.
- Rental Property Investor · Brookline, MA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 777 votes11y
Originally posted by @Clay Smith:
I like the idea of a turnkey for ones first investment. Builds credibility through experience. You won't get near the 2% rule. Might be closer to 1.20. Just be sure your cash on cash roi is good. Shoot for 80/20 loan with 20 year amortization when financing it. Use this experience to hone your processes and prove experience to prospective lenders.
I agree with this statement except the financing part. 30 year financing will drop your monthly payments by about 19% against 20 year financing.
- Tampines, Singapore · Member since 2014 · 68 posts · 21 votes11y
If you're looking to buy & hold from out of state, I personally think turnkey is a good option, particularly at first. It certainly is a lot less risky than trying to do your own rehab remotely, without having a team in place locally.
Just my 2 cents.
@Hattie Dizmond Good point, I will follow your advice in my first foray into US rental properties
- 11yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Cassandra Boyett I started a thread on bp last winter called turn key demystified if you can figure out how to pull it up I give chapter and verse how turn key works and how west coast marketing companies cost you money instead of dealing direct. As well as I wrote an e book on the subject that you may want to read it will give you the knowledge to ask the questions that will help you make a successful investment ...
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes11y
Gosh Jay, I didn't know you were writing ebooks, guess I need a kick in the ashtray.
Search "turnkey scam", not trying to be on the dark side, but being new you need to be more than aware.
Consider, someone could buy a 20K dump, put 10K in it, put their cousin in there, rent it at 750, value it to you based on rents at 69,900, sell it, the cousin stays for 3 months (you're getting part of your money back) then they take off. You try to rent it and find out you can only get 350 a month!
Not a place for a newbie, IMO. There are good ones, but as Jay mentioned you pay. Also be careful with management contracts and them doing maintenance, that can be a sideline gig with a "contractor". :)
- Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes11y
@Bill
@Bill Gulley If you are that naive you will lose your money wherever you put it. Its not hard to spend 30 min online and find comparable values, rents and crime stats on any street in the country. And you can see pics of the street as well. So your scenario, while possible, would work only the extremely gullible.
- Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 8 votes11y
@Cassandra Boyett As a green investor not much further down the road than yourself, I’ve found the idea of turn-key’s to be very appealing. There are reputable turn-key companies out there that do aim to deliver quality homes in good areas. Unfortunately, so far what I’ve found every time is these homes tend to be listed at or above market price with above-market rents. This is a two-fold hit against you right off the bat:
First of course is that as an investor I want to get into a property below market value. There are plenty of properties out there. Many sell near market value, some sell higher and some lower – so why as an investor would I buy one that I know is high? I like the mantra “make your money when you buy”. I want to find value, not set the value for the area!
Secondly, if rent is substantially above market it raises a red flag to me as to the quality and longevity of the tenant(s) in place. How likely would I be able to sustain that level of rent? Would there be high turnover at that price? Are the renters in place higher risk tenants? The turnkey company has incentive to command the highest rent feasibly possible because it makes the CAPs look better. I’ve seen some turnkeys with rents that are at 20-30+% above the market.
I mean, it makes sense for the turnkey company to make a profit. I’m all for that and for them to reap the returns of the work they put into it to. I just don’t want to buy a property at the upper end of its value. All that said, Real Estate is a great investment and has the capacity to forgive some mistakes. As members have shared in podcasts, even many of their mistakes and missteps still turned a profit. Just not as big a profit as if they had made the better/wiser move. So I would say buying a good turnkey property is better than buying nothing at all. In fact I’m sure some turnkey investors do very well.
The veterans around here can give far better advice how to analyze turnkeys, but as a start:
Use sites like realtor.com and zillow to get a ballpark value (look at the comps). Other sites like PadMapper, Craigslist, ApartmentHunterz, and RentOMeter can help you determine what the market rate is for rents. Once you get familiar with these sites (and I’m sure many more great ones out there) you can quickly get an idea if the property is listed at, above or below value.
Get to know the local expenses (approximately what % of the purchase price are taxes? insurance?). I've seen some turn keys that understate expenses to again boost their claimed CAP rate. Also, check out local crime on a site like trulia and look on Street View to get some sort of feel for the area (I know it's not the same as being there, but you can tell a lot more from street view than just a single photograph from the curb).
If you find areas you want to invest in, perhaps try reaching out to the BP community for referrals – find a reputable broker local to that area who can be your eyes and ears.
Oh, and welcome to BP! Good luck with your search.
- Real Estate Investor · OR · Member since 2012 · 390 posts · 133 votes11y
Wow, lots of good---- and questionable --- talk going on here.
Cassandra, welcome to BP , the best crei site online in the world. You're going to love it here.
It's pretty simple really. Turnkey properties are houses that someone has done all the work on: the company found the deal (which takes a lot of skill that is learned over time which has huge value to you), they did the renovation to the maximum level required for the neighborhood and area (again a learned skill), then they screen well and choose the best tenant AT market rent, and provide property management.
Of course turnkey providers are in business to make money as any are. Their fee is in the price of the home. Here is where many are different than others. There is the mentality---completely legitimate---that the buyer's money will be made over time as a buy/hold strategy. The tenants basically pay for your house, it's ongoing repairs (figured into the calculations at the very start) and you will have some cash flow. Thus many investors are willing to pay market value to have all the work done for them and then have a property that pretty much pays for itself.
There are people and companies that offer great turnkey properties with 20% equity and 8-12% TRUE NET ROI---that means every expense imaginable has been deducted before computing the roi. (yes, I see it all the time too; websites with properties that say 30% 45% ROI, right; I guess it could be possible in the hood). The properties I am speaking of have been beautifully renovated and are in good neighborhoods.
So, the moral of the story is don't judge all turnkey companies to be the same. I believe turnkeys are the best way to go as a beginner because it allows people to get into r.e. investing in an easier way.
Also, by taking your time and doing your homework you will learn what the numbers and demographics are. Talk with MANY people (network) study much, verify everything. I get people calling or emailing me all the time telling me how great a deal is, how safe the neighborhood is, or fair the price or whatever. It takes me about 5 minutes (usually less) to find out if they are full of baloney. It takes time to learn things but you can do it.
The search bar here on BP is one of my best friends. I research anything and everything and there isn't a day that goes by that I don't learn something new.
Best of success to you
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes11y
Originally posted by @ANISH TOLIA:
@Bill
@Bill G. If you are that naive you will lose your money wherever you put it. Its not hard to spend 30 min online and find comparable values, rents and crime stats on any street in the country. And you can see pics of the street as well. So your scenario, while possible, would work only the extremely gullible.
After your post seems the tune changed a bit, toward due diligence, which was my point.
Actually, that scenario has already been pulled on investors, I didn't dream it up.
I'm speaking of newbies entering RE, let's say they are skilled enough to use goggle earth and zoom all over the hose and neighborhood, do they really know what they are looking at? No, not always.
Crime rates? Here, we have more police calls in certain areas but actual crimes, from drugs to murder and domestic violence have been in every area, especially drug busts. So, for any slick talker selling a turn key, I'd say the focus can be taken away from such stats as not being so relevant.
I'm so naïve, that I can easily show comps, perhaps my last sales to a newbie and discredit internet valuation sites, not hard to do as there aren't any accurate valuation sites for this area, or other areas really. If they were accurate, banks would use them and appraisers would go fishing more often. I've never met a new person in RE that could accurately value a property, might be some, I just never met them.
Let's not forget the pitch, salesmanship and the knowledge a seller may use to justify the property and an area. This is our 3rd property in this area, we have other properties in the area that we are acquiring, we're working with the city to identify depressed areas and revitalize the area. Our project for this area is scheduled to be completed in just under 3 years and getting in now means you'll be set to reap the benefits of exceptional appreciation. Some are very good with fluff, exaggerations, deception, justifications and spin, newbies need to consider this stuff and be able to identify it.
Just about anything as to due diligence performed by more seasoned types can be circumvented by someone who has enough knowledge and is just criminally inclined. The best approach is getting a trusted third party involved in the due diligence, boots on the ground.
Let's not forget, I did say there are some good ones dealing in turn key deals, there are good property managers, but let's not be naïve, they get paid which means there is less money in the owner's pocket, should be obvious. Can they be a decent or good investment? Sure, but the same property transaction would have been better if the buyer had gone a little further and created the deal themselves......but, that's not always possible.
I'd have to say that only the naïve would rely on the internet for data to determine a purchase, some data is reliable, tax records, MLS, MSA rent levels, most turn key deals aren't executive rentals, so your Section 8 office can give you some clues as to area comparable rents. IMO, investors should not even open valuation sites, those are for Harry Homeowner to get ideas of what to ask for a FSBO, or doing his estate plan or wondering if he could get an equity loan, investors need to be more accurate.
My point was there are scammers and crooks, so just beware. I might consider an office warehouse, an office building or strip project under a turn key deal (and have) but that is entirely a different matter, I'd never consider a turn key house......if I really want a house in Detroit or several, I'll go to Detroit, pick them out, select a PM and leave, get a contractor if needed, then go home and close in escrow. That's just me.
Speaking of naïve, sometimes it's good to be seen in that light, I generally have the advantage when others in the deal believe they are ahead of me. :)
- 11yEngelo RumoraBusiness MemberInvestor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Originally posted by @Hattie Dizmond:
There's really no way to say what they "charge", because the sell of the property works just like if any other investor was selling it. They are going to make a profit, but that profit will be baked into the sell price.
How they work? Again, there isn't a single model. I can only tell you how Memphis Invest works, because I just got back from their event last weekend! They buy properties and completely rehab them, prior to selling them to buy & hold investors. They also will provide all the Property Management. About 1/4 of their current investors who were present at the event had never even seen their properties.
@Engelo Rumora also does turnkey properties in Ohio. He has a great podcast he did for BP. He's pretty low-key, when it comes to the sales pitch part. I'd recommend reaching out to him, making contact and then just talking to him about the process he uses.
If you're looking to buy & hold from out of state, I personally think turnkey is a good option, particularly at first. It certainly is a lot less risky than trying to do your own rehab remotely, without having a team in place locally.
Just my 2 cents.
Hi Hattie,
Thanks for the mention. It is much appreciated :)
Hi Cassandra,
Please feel free to check out a blog I wrote a while back for Bigger Pockets. I hope you find is useful -
http://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2014/07/26/sight-mind-real-estate-investing-afar/
- Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes11y
@Jay Hinrichs & @Bill Gulley personally, but I've read enough of her posts to know she isn't about to sign up for anything, until she has fully vetted the property and the seller. No gullibility with Ms Boone!
My point? Just to reinforce the fact that "turnkey" doesn't mean blind. I suggested Engelo Rumora and Memphis Invest, because they are both known entities on BP. Engelo & the Clothiers are all on the site, participating and adding value to the community. You can read their posts and know they are not here for the sole purpose of soliciting new business.
And, NO. Google Earth or another similar service is NOT sufficient due diligence to validate the condition and quality of the property or neighborhood. If you can't personally get there to view and vet a property, I'm certain there will be at least one community member who would look at the property for you.
- Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes11y
Would you be willing to consider a fixer-upper? You will likely get a much better deal. As long as you, or family or friends are handy, you should be able to get it in good shape and save A LOT of money. Especially for your early deals, it makes sense to maximize your rate of return. Having said that, if the rehab would take months and months, it might be better to get one that is ready to go. A rehab that would only take a month or so would be ideal.
- Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes11y
@Cassandra Boyett I would be curious how many turnkey properties were sold to local investors. It seems that distance between investor and investment is a GOAL of most turnkey companies. That should be a major concern.
- Homeowner · Palmdale, CA · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 6 votes11y
I would absolutely consider a fixer upper if we were local. However, my husband works full time and I am a stay at home mom to 2 very small children and there is nothing in our area (Southern California) we can afford- not even fixer uppers. So it seems that either we buy out of the area (but it would have to be hands-off since we won't be able to be around), or we move out of our house, rent it out, and purchase another home for us with the FHA loan.
- Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 471 posts · 132 votes11y
Originally posted by @Cassandra Boyett:
I would absolutely consider a fixer upper if we were local. However, my husband works full time and I am a stay at home mom to 2 very small children and there is nothing in our area (Southern California) we can afford- not even fixer uppers. So it seems that either we buy out of the area (but it would have to be hands-off since we won't be able to be around), or we move out of our house, rent it out, and purchase another home for us with the FHA loan.
I see.. I would be hesitant to buy anything that isn't close enough to drive to and that I couldn't manage directly. I would rather manage properties and eventually hire an assistant than pay a third party.
- 11yCurt DavisBusiness MemberFlipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
For investors who are purchasing long distance, I think it is best to buy turnkey. I have only known a handful or less of people who for example live in California and will come to Memphis to buy their homes cash and manage some of the rehab while fixing it up themselves. They do save money but what they lack is any form of a team as they have decided to do it themselves, they are almost on their own. I live and operate in Memphis and if I were looking to buy in another state I would surely go the turnkey route as I am not a local expert in that market and dont have the connections.
Having excellent management in place will be the key to your success.
There are many forms of what you would call " turnkey ".
One other thing I would add is to make sure you are purchasing directly from a local turnkey company where the company owners actually live and operate in that local market. If you are not then most likely you are working with an affiliate who is promoting another company and collecting a profit which makes it slightly more difficult to get a better deal.
Work direct!!
Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews - 11yEric FernwoodBusiness MemberRealtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2014 · 995 posts · 1k+ votes
Hello @Cassandra Boyett ,
Buying turnkey can be an excellent purchase method but remember that this is only a purchase method, it does not assure you that you are buying in a “long term good” location, getting a good property or that you are going to get good tenants.
You have heard the old adage that the three most important things to consider in real estate are location, location and location. This is still true. When you are considering a property in any “location” you need to think long term. Do your homework and make an informed guess whether the state/city/area is still likely to be a good place to own a property in 15 or 20 years? What is happening today or this year is almost irrelevant because real estate is a long term (multiyear) proposition. Some of the key indicators you should consider are:
• Population migration - are people moving in or out? If they are generally moving out of the state/county/area then the value of your investment in 5 or 10 years is going to be much less than today. Here is a page that provide population shifts by city.
• The value of a property is no better than the jobs around it. This does not mean just that there are jobs, the earning power of jobs needs to be stable or increasing. For example, if the state/county/area trend is from manufacturing jobs to lower paying service jobs, your rent is going to go down and the value of your property will fall.
• Property price trends - If property prices are trending down in an area, that is because there is less demand. If there is less demand to purchase, then there will likely be less demand for renting in that area too. And, if property prices are going down, rents will also go down and even if you decide to cut your losses and sell you probably can’t even sell the property at break even.The following two points are not criteria but something to keep in mind. 1) As long as you buy in a good area (see all the above), all but the worst mistakes will be corrected over time through appreciation, inflation and rent increases. However, if you buy in a bad (or trending down) area, there is little or nothing you can do to make money over the long term. 2) To quote a former president, "Trust, but verify"; never take others claims at face value. With the internet, you can validate any claims made by others. The data is there and all you have to do is to spend sometime and the claims will be either validated or you will know that you need to find someone else to deal with.
Below is the process model I recommend. The property profile and profitability are explained in details in this thread - http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/12/topics/1527...
Best Wishes,
Eric Fernwood
FERNWOOD Team, KW VIP Realty520 Reviews - Real Estate Investor · OR · Member since 2012 · 390 posts · 133 votes11y
Wow @Eric Fernwood what a great post and nice presentation!
I respectfully disagree with you @Curt Davis Good marketing though ;-)
I often help international and interstate turnkey and rehab investors that were ripped off in the past by a (then) high profile company. Just because someone has an office and lives in a nice area of Memphis doesn't mean they are more skillful, reliable or honest. These new out of area investors were referred by someone else, did all the demographic due diligence and did extensive research on the company and still got ripped off---yeah, from home bred Memphians.
Successful people throughout time have surrounded themselves by experts in their respective niches. I don't have to be an expert at everything in my business but I better have the best on my team of advisers, PM, contractors, attorneys and title companies---or just close up shop. It's easier to treat people right and deliver excellent service than to rip them off. One of my secrets to success is building partnerships for many years to come rather than trying to get a bunch of money from unsuspecting investors today.
And as for not getting a good deal because someone refers a client, sheesh. I have lovely cash flowing properties in great neighborhoods 20% under appraised value. I think that's pretty sweet.
But then that is just two cents from someone who has worked happily, successfully in Memphis from across the country for a year and a half ;-)
- 11yChris K.Pro MemberInvestor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes
Depends on your definition of "turnkey". My definition of "turnkey" is the same as "rent ready". I want to be able to buy it and start looking for a tenant immediately. As a first time investor I'd stay away from the ones where they have a tenant in place and they manage. Those are very important things to learn for a first time landlord and if you don't know what to look for you won't know if the property is being managed properly.
- Real Estate Investor · OR · Member since 2012 · 390 posts · 133 votes11y
@Chris K. you make a good point about to have the tenants in place or not. I have purchased, in the beginning before I had my current team, props with tenants. It seemed like a good idea, right?? But this was a good learning experience for me. Sometimes it is easier to have no tenants and to purchase "rent ready".
It all depends on how well you trust the person, company and Pm to have a tenant in place. I will say, for sure, for those that are new to an area make sure you have read everything here on BP about skillfully finding, screening tenants and the best lease to use. An investor might have the best house in the best area----but a tenant can kill ya!!
I hate being a landlord so I was determined to find the best and let them handle the headaches ;-)
Best of Success!!
- Flipper/Rehabber · Greeleyville, SC · Member since 2014 · 3 posts · 0 votes11y
Cassandra, I am new to this forum but my wife and I have had several deals with turn-key properties. Unfortunately not everything worked out as we had hoped, but that's part of the learning process. Be sure when you get these properties, a great property manager is looking out for the property. We recently moved from Salem, Oregon to Afton, TN and we are closing on a Fannie Mae property in Greeleyville, SC. If you would like to chat sometime, we would welcome it..... best of luck.
- Specialist · Memphis, TN · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes11y
The risk with properties with existing tenants, unless they have just gone i after a rehab is that you get a lot of surprises when they leave.
The theory is pretty simple. You will pay more from a turnkey but have less risk. So it really is up to your strategy.
For example a home you can buy from a turnkey for 80K you can buy yourself for say 45K. But then you have to find someone to rehab it and get it rented etc. So you might end up all in at 65 to 70K.
The turnkey bought the same house because they are better connected for 35K and they were all in at 60K because they can do more rehab for less than you can.
So on the one had 10 to 15K difference is a lot of money but the flip side is you have carried no risk and if something goes wrong the turnkey will fix it.
And you could have missed something in the rehab budget and end up all in at 90K.
So if you define turnkey as a buying rent ready or already newly leased homes there is no doubt they carry less risk and make life easier long distance.
The HARD part is finding wholesalers you can rely on and thats what forums like this are for to help you avoid the bad ones and find the good ones.
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