Kitchen Renovations without Permits - Impact on future?
Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 24 posts · 5 votes
Kitchen Renovations without Permits - Impact on future?
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Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes
10yYou can still get permits. Sometimes they city waives the fees. Its the owners responsibility to get the permits typically. Take tons of pictures of all the electrical and plumbing, as this can save your butt if you have to rip open the walls. If the walls are not covered up yet then no damage yet. Leave them open for a few more days to get the inspections. Good Luck
32 Replies
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Christine G.:
Hi All,
I am new to this forum so sorry if i posted in the wrong section.
I ran into an issue, and this is completely my fault, where i started a kitchen remodel without permits. I hired a GC to do the work and asked him to avoid the permits because I wanted to speed things along.
Anyway, I got to thinking that this may now be a bad idea because if i want to rent the place out i dont want to be sued or held liable for any damages that would occur. This is a condo in MA by the way.
Kitchen remodel has already started and the wall has been torn down and electrical work finished so far. Nothing else has been done. I am wondering can I still get the permits without getting hit with heavy fees? No plumbing work has been done and no cabinets have been put up yet but the design of the kitchen will be different than what was there before (was a Galley Kitchen, now an open floor concept with an island with stove and island range).
Thanks!
-C
Considering where you are, you are probably best to leave well enough alone. The contractor could be fined or lose his/her right to work in your jurisdiction, you could be fined, work could be stopped, and theoretically everything could be forced to be reversed. I'm surprised you found a contractor willing to ignore permits.
So I would not recommend skipping out on permits, but if you are going to your best bet is to get the job done safely and button it back up. If it becomes an issue, plead ignorance, which is not really too far off the mark because it is ignorance of the laws on your part (and your GC!). In fact, you may want to delete this entire thread ;)
Skyline Properties - Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 24 posts · 5 votes10y
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
Originally posted by @Christine G.:
Hi All,
I am new to this forum so sorry if i posted in the wrong section.
I ran into an issue, and this is completely my fault, where i started a kitchen remodel without permits. I hired a GC to do the work and asked him to avoid the permits because I wanted to speed things along.
Anyway, I got to thinking that this may now be a bad idea because if i want to rent the place out i dont want to be sued or held liable for any damages that would occur. This is a condo in MA by the way.
Kitchen remodel has already started and the wall has been torn down and electrical work finished so far. Nothing else has been done. I am wondering can I still get the permits without getting hit with heavy fees? No plumbing work has been done and no cabinets have been put up yet but the design of the kitchen will be different than what was there before (was a Galley Kitchen, now an open floor concept with an island with stove and island range).
Thanks!
-C
Considering where you are, you are probably best to leave well enough alone. The contractor could be fined or lose his/her right to work in your jurisdiction, you could be fined, work could be stopped, and theoretically everything could be forced to be reversed. I'm surprised you found a contractor willing to ignore permits.
So I would not recommend skipping out on permits, but if you are going to your best bet is to get the job done safely and button it back up. If it becomes an issue, plead ignorance, which is not really too far off the mark because it is ignorance of the laws on your part (and your GC!). In fact, you may want to delete this entire thread ;)
Hi Jd,
Thanks for your reply. So it was my fault for this because I asked that he avoid permits so that I could speed the kitchen remodel along. He did mention that they would slow the process down which is why i asked if he could avoid them. On the contract he wrote "Seller to provide permits" (me) which means he is not liable for anything. I'm wondering if I could just get the permits anyway?
Thanks!
-C
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Christine G.:
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
Originally posted by @Christine G.:
Hi All,
I am new to this forum so sorry if i posted in the wrong section.
I ran into an issue, and this is completely my fault, where i started a kitchen remodel without permits. I hired a GC to do the work and asked him to avoid the permits because I wanted to speed things along.
Anyway, I got to thinking that this may now be a bad idea because if i want to rent the place out i dont want to be sued or held liable for any damages that would occur. This is a condo in MA by the way.
Kitchen remodel has already started and the wall has been torn down and electrical work finished so far. Nothing else has been done. I am wondering can I still get the permits without getting hit with heavy fees? No plumbing work has been done and no cabinets have been put up yet but the design of the kitchen will be different than what was there before (was a Galley Kitchen, now an open floor concept with an island with stove and island range).
Thanks!
-C
Considering where you are, you are probably best to leave well enough alone. The contractor could be fined or lose his/her right to work in your jurisdiction, you could be fined, work could be stopped, and theoretically everything could be forced to be reversed. I'm surprised you found a contractor willing to ignore permits.
So I would not recommend skipping out on permits, but if you are going to your best bet is to get the job done safely and button it back up. If it becomes an issue, plead ignorance, which is not really too far off the mark because it is ignorance of the laws on your part (and your GC!). In fact, you may want to delete this entire thread ;)
Hi Jd,
Thanks for your reply. So it was my fault for this because I asked that he avoid permits so that I could speed the kitchen remodel along. He did mention that they would slow the process down which is why i asked if he could avoid them. On the contract he wrote "Seller to provide permits" (me) which means he is not liable for anything. I'm wondering if I could just get the permits anyway?
Thanks!
-C
You can try but if they make you tear some stuff out and start over don't be surprised, or if you have to pay a fine for the number of days you were working without a permit. It really depends on your locale. Besides, ignorance of whether you got the permits is no excuse for the contractor if he/she is licensed to do work in your town/state. I suspect it is his responsibility to verify you have them by seeing them, because you usually have to have them posted on the jobsite.
Skyline Properties - Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 24 posts · 5 votes10y
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
Originally posted by @Christine G.:
Originally posted by @JD Martin:
Originally posted by @Christine G.:
Hi All,
I am new to this forum so sorry if i posted in the wrong section.
I ran into an issue, and this is completely my fault, where i started a kitchen remodel without permits. I hired a GC to do the work and asked him to avoid the permits because I wanted to speed things along.
Anyway, I got to thinking that this may now be a bad idea because if i want to rent the place out i dont want to be sued or held liable for any damages that would occur. This is a condo in MA by the way.
Kitchen remodel has already started and the wall has been torn down and electrical work finished so far. Nothing else has been done. I am wondering can I still get the permits without getting hit with heavy fees? No plumbing work has been done and no cabinets have been put up yet but the design of the kitchen will be different than what was there before (was a Galley Kitchen, now an open floor concept with an island with stove and island range).
Thanks!
-C
Considering where you are, you are probably best to leave well enough alone. The contractor could be fined or lose his/her right to work in your jurisdiction, you could be fined, work could be stopped, and theoretically everything could be forced to be reversed. I'm surprised you found a contractor willing to ignore permits.
So I would not recommend skipping out on permits, but if you are going to your best bet is to get the job done safely and button it back up. If it becomes an issue, plead ignorance, which is not really too far off the mark because it is ignorance of the laws on your part (and your GC!). In fact, you may want to delete this entire thread ;)
Hi Jd,
Thanks for your reply. So it was my fault for this because I asked that he avoid permits so that I could speed the kitchen remodel along. He did mention that they would slow the process down which is why i asked if he could avoid them. On the contract he wrote "Seller to provide permits" (me) which means he is not liable for anything. I'm wondering if I could just get the permits anyway?
Thanks!
-C
You can try but if they make you tear some stuff out and start over don't be surprised, or if you have to pay a fine for the number of days you were working without a permit. It really depends on your locale.
Ok thanks! Good to know. As of right now everything is open. There was electrical work done but the holes and walls aren't patched up so you can see the work the electrician has done. When I checked on the town website for filing for a permit there was a note that said the permit amount will be tripled if the work has already started. So I think at worse my electric permit will be tripled?
- Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes10y
You can still get permits. Sometimes they city waives the fees. Its the owners responsibility to get the permits typically. Take tons of pictures of all the electrical and plumbing, as this can save your butt if you have to rip open the walls. If the walls are not covered up yet then no damage yet. Leave them open for a few more days to get the inspections. Good Luck
- Contractor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 651 posts · 510 votes10y
@Christine G. Do the right thing and get the permits. Any lumps you receive from doing so will be the cost of your education. Your contractor should not have started any work until there was a permit posted on site. Is he licensed?
- Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 24 posts · 5 votes10y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Christine G. Do the right thing and get the permits. Any lumps you receive from doing so will be the cost of your education. Your contractor should not have started any work until there was a permit posted on site. Is he licensed?
Thanks! I am definitely going to try to get permits. Yes he is licensed. I am worried because I wil eventually want to rent the place out and I live on the top floor. Should the place flood or if there's a fire i dont want this to affect my insurance or my neighbors going after me.
- Designer/Contractor from Riverside, CA · Member since 2015 · 56 posts · 26 votes10y
I have no doubt that whatever you do, if your unit floods another unit they will go after you! And so will the HOA if you have one.
- Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 24 posts · 5 votes10y
Originally posted by @Jim Adrian:
You can still get permits. Sometimes they city waives the fees. Its the owners responsibility to get the permits typically. Take tons of pictures of all the electrical and plumbing, as this can save your butt if you have to rip open the walls. If the walls are not covered up yet then no damage yet. Leave them open for a few more days to get the inspections. Good Luck
Jim, thanks for the help. I just talked to my contractor. He said that the electrical work would need to be redone because it is not up to code and because I opened up the walls that the whole kitchen would need to be rewired including a new electrical box. He said because the kitchen was up to code at one point in the past but now no longer is and that is why the entire kitchen needs to be done. Is this true?
Thanks
-C
- Specialist · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 870 posts · 345 votes10y
I know "someone" doing a considerable rehab without permits. The decision was made on the fact the place is a buy and hold and no one will be asking questions if permits were pulled for the rehab. Also, the place is in a C area and everyone is doing work without permits there. I don't think they will do the work without permit in better areas where the cost of the property is much higher.
E.g., electrical upgrades with permit, $14K, without permit $4K.
HVAC with permit $16K, without permit $7K.
It's very tempting to bypass the permit with those numbers.
- Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes10y
Originally posted by @Christine G.:
Originally posted by @Jim Adrian:
You can still get permits. Sometimes they city waives the fees. Its the owners responsibility to get the permits typically. Take tons of pictures of all the electrical and plumbing, as this can save your butt if you have to rip open the walls. If the walls are not covered up yet then no damage yet. Leave them open for a few more days to get the inspections. Good Luck
Jim, thanks for the help. I just talked to my contractor. He said that the electrical work would need to be redone because it is not up to code and because I opened up the walls that the whole kitchen would need to be rewired including a new electrical box. He said because the kitchen was up to code at one point in the past but now no longer is and that is why the entire kitchen needs to be done. Is this true?
Thanks
-C
This is possible but could be fishing for more work. Electrical code questions are not my specialty. Have the contractor point to the code reference in the NEC book. If it is aluminum wire or knob and tube, then he is right.
- Investor · San Luis Obispo, CA · Member since 2016 · 1 post · 2 votes10y
It's not too late to get permits. You shouldn't be charged for starting work without permit unless you tell them. How would they know? If an inspector comes by or a neighbor turns you in before you get a permit that would be another story. There is no inspections until the demo is complete and the new work is ready for the rough plumbing, electrical, HVAC and then framing. I recommend go to permit office (or have your contractor go) and obtain permits and wait a few days and call for your rough inspections. No harm. Your contractor should build to code regardless of permits for life safety.
- Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 24 posts · 5 votes10y
thanks William, unfortunately the contractor told me that the electrical was not done to code because of the appliances I wanted. They had to put several appliances on the same line for instance, but they did to the electrical work as best and as safely as possible. He told me they put this anticorrosion putty on the stove electrical wiring for example. He told me that a new panel and rewiring alone would be at least 5 grand ballpark. That's a lot of money :(
- Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes10y
Sounds like they are mixing alum wires with copper. The circuit is maxed out. Typically they like to spilt the frig, stove and microwave on to separate circuits. I believe you need 2 different circuits in a kitchen. Price seems average to high but not unreasonable.
- Rental Property Investor · Lake Forest Park, WA · Member since 2015 · 127 posts · 57 votes10yI am an electrician. Pull your permits for two reasons 1) You will have everything documented when it comes time to sell. A buyer can find out if you pulled permits or not. 2) This will keep the contractor honest to a certain extent. They can still cut corners somewhat but the big safety concerns should be caught by inspections. I would be feeling sketched out by your contractor if I were you. It sounds to me like he is really trying to cut corners. Granted that could be because you are pressing his timeline. Me personally, I won't compromise my work quality for someone's timeline. Have it done right and you won't regret it in the long run.
- Real Estate Agent · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 24 posts · 5 votes10y
Originally posted by @James Lusk:
I am an electrician. Pull your permits for two reasons
1) You will have everything documented when it comes time to sell. A buyer can find out if you pulled permits or not.
2) This will keep the contractor honest to a certain extent. They can still cut corners somewhat but the big safety concerns should be caught by inspections.I would be feeling sketched out by your contractor if I were you. It sounds to me like he is really trying to cut corners. Granted that could be because you are pressing his timeline. Me personally, I won't compromise my work quality for someone's timeline. Have it done right and you won't regret it in the long run.
So I think what i'll do is hold off on permits and just take pictures of everything for now. Unfortunately the amount of money and time for me to get permits is just not in the books right now. And this is a buy and hold condo for me. Also, some of the Electrical work is not done to code (some of the appliances are on one line and my circuit board doesn't have enough space for additional lines). I may hold off on adding additional appliances to avoid tripping the wires. I wish I had known this earlier but I am pretty confident that the work is done in a very professional manner.
The condo was built in the 1980s therefore if i wanted to do a kitchen remodel the entire kitchen would have to be brought up to code because it is out of code now.
Thanks everyone for your help. Lesson learned! My next property I will make sure permits are pulled!
- Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Frank S.:
E.g., electrical upgrades with permit, $14K, without permit $4K.
HVAC with permit $16K, without permit $7K.
It's very tempting to bypass the permit with those numbers.
OUCH! During a fire restoration, I & the contractor went to City Planning and I paid the permit fees: Windows, drywall, electrical & plumbing and the fee was less than $500 - - in Calif too!
The issue is to get the permit in your own name and for you to act as the General Contractor. Anytime a vendor does work for you (even fetching parts from the local store or filing permits) their time & materials get a 100% markup - - that's how they make money.
- 10yStephanie MedellinBusiness MemberMortgage Broker · CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 642 votes
@Christine G. I highly recommend going to get the permits. As @William Ward said above, no one comes to your house to inspect before work is started. After you receive your permits, you (or really your contractor) must call to schedule the inspection. They won't know you already started the work.
However, the building inspector could stop by anytime, permits or not, and see what you're doing. ESPECIALLY if you're in a condo complex, and your walls are attached to your neighbors, you are putting the building at risk by not doing electrical work to code. You're paying this contractor to do substandard work! It may seem like a large investment now to do the additional work, but a few days and even a few extra thousand dollars today really is worth it in the long run to have the work done safely and correctly.
Once the walls are closed up it's not going to be an easy fix to rewire everything correctly. Do it once and get it done right the first time. You will be grateful you did.
Stephanie Medellin, Loan Factory58 Reviews - 10yStephanie MedellinBusiness MemberMortgage Broker · CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 642 votes
What are pictures going to do for you? That will just prove that you knew of the issues and allowed the work to be done that way.
Sorry, but if I was your next door neighbor I'd be awfully upset if I knew you were not doing electrical work properly. I can't see how the HOA is ok with this either.
Stephanie Medellin, Loan Factory58 Reviews - Property Manager · Ketchum, ID · Member since 2016 · 277 posts · 132 votes10y
To Ken who is replacing cabinets and a sink and counter top. As long as you are doing no structural changes, plumbing changes like moving pipes and electrical changes like upgrading a service, or changing the foot print of the building you will not need a permit.
Timmi Ryerson
Smart Property Systems
- Property Manager · Ketchum, ID · Member since 2016 · 277 posts · 132 votes10y
To Christine,
You should definitely stop work and contact the building dept. As for penalties, I don't know about that but with walls being removed, it requires engineering to be sure that the unit is structurally sound. That will require an inspection. The electrical work will also require inspection. It is really for your own protection and we all dislike having to wait for the inspector to show up...especially if he has a backlog and is late as it delays the progress. It is my opinion that if you get the permits and cooperate with the City that you will not be fined. It is when you finish a remodel and have not gotten the permits that the problems start. If that were the case, they may not allow the remodel and require you to tear it down and start again.
Timmi Ryerson
Smart Property Systems
- Specialist · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 870 posts · 345 votes10y
Originally posted by @Jeff B.:
E.g., electrical upgrades with permit, $14K, without permit $4K.
HVAC with permit $16K, without permit $7K.
It's very tempting to bypass the permit with those numbers.
OUCH! During a fire restoration, I & the contractor went to City Planning and I paid the permit fees: Windows, drywall, electrical & plumbing and the fee was less than $500 - - in Calif too!
The issue is to get the permit in your own name and for you to act as the General Contractor. Anytime a vendor does work for you (even fetching parts from the local store or filing permits) their time & materials get a 100% markup - - that's how they make money.
Someone wise said, "if you can't afford permits, get a better deal".
That's easier said than done, but it's true.
Another one said, " unpermitted work will eventually catch up with you, and it will cost you". That gave me the chills.
If the work is of bad quality and this causes a fire the insurance could have a few questions. Fortunately, the person with the unpermitted work can inspect and correct the work. Still, it's a risk.
If one can afford it, permit, bonded, insured is the way to go.
- Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes10y
Originally posted by @Timmi Ryerson:
To Ken who is replacing cabinets and a sink and counter top. As long as you are doing no structural changes, plumbing changes like moving pipes and electrical changes like upgrading a service, or changing the foot print of the building you will not need a permit.
Timmi Ryerson
Smart Property Systems
That's not true at all!
- Architect · Papillion, NE · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 840 votes10y
Here is link to free access to the Building Codes from the ICC who publishes all codes. Please check your local building dept for what edition is current as this varies across the country.
http://codes.iccsafe.org/I-Codes.html#2012
Its the owner responsibility for getting permits but a lot of times the owner does not realize this and the contractor pulls the permits on behalf of the owner. The contractor is not required to pull permits. Permits are cheap, like $100 or so! If you read chapter 1 of the codes it has a section on R105 Permits as show below. Now there are exceptions to the codes but you can read them online.
Chapter 1 only:
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