Petition for BP to Discontinue Wholesaling Discussions...

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Residential Real Estate Agent · Orlando, FL · Member since 2015 · 139 posts · 106 votes
11y

I'm not sure why I'm even responding to this insulting post but since you've hit a nerve, I'm going to try.  Wholesales and wholesalers are an intricate part for many investors.  Considering we move 30-50 properties a month to our investors may show that wholesalers play an important role for many investors.  We work to provide quality investments and take over  all the hard work and time it takes to acquire properties for our investors that don't have the time, desire or knowledge to accomplish.  Sure, there are bad seeds out there in the wholesale world, but there are bad seeds in every aspect of business.  I find BP to be an incredible resource for me as an investor and a wholesaler.  For you to want to begin a petition to rid posts and forums about a particular side of investing seems selfish and a little "one sided".  I can only assume you've had a bad experience, but to burn the industry as a whole really doesn't provide much credibility on your part.

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  • Brandon SturgillBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Micah Copeland Thanks for entertaining the conversation :)

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  • Brandon SturgillBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Broker · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Karl Krentzel very eloquently put. Thanks for chiming in. 

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  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Jay Hinrichs

    As a first, this one should go down in the record books.  I agree with everything you just said!  LMAO

  • Brandon SturgillBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Thanks @Hattie Dizmond very well articulated. I was anticipating this would be taken down by a moderator before now...just looking for perspectives :)

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Joe Kling

    plenty of agents sell rehabbers.. one of my clients buys 80% of his inventory from an OREO broker who feeds them to him.. we closed 110 of these in the last 16 months. maybe 10 came FSBO another 10 or so from a wholesaler the rest from the OREO BROKER. very common.

    whats hard though is to crack into the a VERY GOOD OREO brokers buyers list... where I can see the wholesaler depending on how experienced they are .. will shotgun out the deals and sell to anyone...  ERgo leads to a lot of frustration from sellers when these folks can't close.  Why do you think banks hire Agents and not wholesalers to sell their properties.  ?

  • Brandon SturgillBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Dev Horn thanks for the perspective...and for taking the time to comment.

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  • Dev HornPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Arlington, TX · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    No shortage of perspective here!  =)  lol

  • La Puente, CA · Member since 2015 · 97 posts · 49 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Joe Kling

    plenty of agents sell rehabbers.. one of my clients buys 80% of his inventory from an OREO broker who feeds them to him.. we closed 110 of these in the last 16 months. maybe 10 came FSBO another 10 or so from a wholesaler the rest from the OREO BROKER. very common.

    whats hard though is to crack into the a VERY GOOD OREO brokers buyers list... where I can see the wholesaler depending on how experienced they are .. will shotgun out the deals and sell to anyone...  ERgo leads to a lot of frustration from sellers when these folks can't close.  Why do you think banks hire Agents and not wholesalers to sell their properties.  ?

    Point taken Jay. I was thinking of the retail agents not REO brokers. That being said, *some* of those properties could've been saved from becoming REO if a good wholesaler had linked up with a good rehabber and helped the original owner solve the problem, don't you think?

    If any good REO brokers (or wholesalers) are reading this and want me to look at their deals in the east part of Los Angeles please private message me. :)

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Hattie Dizmond

      that's what BP is for spirited  classy exchange of ideas and opinions..

    I know I only bat about 57% with my wife agreeing with everything I say :)

  • Investor · Century, FL · Member since 2015 · 950 posts · 603 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Joe Kling:
    Originally posted by @James DeRoest:
    Originally posted by @Joe Kling:
    Originally posted by @James DeRoest:

     My point, which you are missing, is that wholesalers provide no extra function in the market than is already provided by realtors. I'm not interested in them being at whatever job they think they have, we already have licensed professionals called realtors.

    And even if you want to call them flippers - how does that help me? It's just more people to feed in an ever increasing priced market. Where do I find value from that? I don't.

     I'm not missing your point. I just disagree with it. Wholesalers provide the function of sourcing properties that need to be rehabbed and linking them with individuals who are capable and willing to do that job. Realtors sell properties at retail value. They help the average individual who wants to buy a home for their family. The average individual doesn't want to deal with a rehab and even if they did their financing would prevent them from buying the types if properties that wholesalers typically deal with. Wholesalers have to be great at marketing so they can find those opportunities that rehabbers need to do business. 

    The store at the mall doesn't typically buy directly from the producer/manufacturer. They buy from a wholesaler. Why is it different for REI?

     And why is the function of selling a distressed house any different to selling a retail house?

    There is no difference. There is still a contract of sale, there is still a closing, the process is entirely the same.

    Wholesalers think that they are providing a service that realtors can't for some reason. Yet the process is the same.

    As for wholesalers telling me what rehab costs are - most haven't got a clue because they've never rehabbed anything in the first place.

    Again, tell me what wholesalers provide that a good realtor couldn't?

    Wholesalers are just brokers who can't be bothered to get licensed.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Orlando, FL · Member since 2015 · 139 posts · 106 votes
    11y

    Work with an agent all you want. Find an agent that works for a company that has the proper relationships with the banks and who has bank representatives contact them and asked them to get this property off their desk with a cash buyer that will close in less than two weeks before it's listed. Work with an agent that can get the property acquired before it's available on MLS. That has the experience in rehab analysis. Then ask them to sell it to you less than .5% commission so your ROI isn't tarnished. I work in volume, not just one deal. I do all the leg work to get the price at rock bottom and only if the numbers work after rehab, all closing cost, taxes, HOA fees, insurance required during rehab, utility estimates during rehab, rental projections and ARV and second closing costs once you've placed it back on the market.. Please, work with a real estate agent that will do all of that for $1000 per deal.

    I can do it because of volume.  I have volume because my numbers are tight and true and I treat every investor fairly and honestly.  If the property isn't the right fit for them, they will hear it from me first.  If the property isn't a good fit for any investor, I don't acquire it. For you to bash wholesalers as a whole is either arrogant or ignorant.  I am a licensed real estate agent, not some "wanna be" working out of the trunk of their car as some people perceive wholesalers to be.

    Real estate agents play and intricate part to investors.  Can I get all the deals?  Absolutely not.  Can real estate agents find good deals?  Of course they can.  But most real estate agents do not specialize in investments.  An electrician has worked along side plumbers during many projects, that doesn't mean he can now best advise me how to rehab the poly piping out of my house.  As a wholesale agent, I do nothing but make and acquire investment property for my investors.  That's it....nothing else.  So I guess my question is, since you started this whole rant is....why not?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Joe Kling

      in reality now a days the only way the bank gets them back is if they won't take a short pay or sale.. and no one bids 3p at auction ... so no wholesaler is going to help when a property is underwater... So maybe a few got through but not many is my take on it.  If there is equity someone will get it before an OREO broker gets it.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    11y

    Didn't read all of this ( wanted to save useful brain power ) ! lol

    Bottom line is there are people in every profession that have no clue what they are doing. There are also the few that are the highest point of their craft. Those people are few and far between.

    Over the years I haven't found a credible wholesaler yet but I haven't been looking hard.. : )

    I think the posts at least serve to show buyers what they might want to stay away from. It also can help keep LAZY wholesalers away when they actually see the work involved and help the ones that stick around get better at what they do.

    I am not advocating wholesalers and can see getting licensed as benefit in many ways. I think all the games and wasting time with bad deals over and over is why many buyers do not like working with them.

    It's the same in real estate being licensed. If all you ever present to people is overpriced garbage then you business is not going to blow up. In fact you will get  a rep for not knowing what you are doing because if you did you wouldn't be presenting such properties to people.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    @Joel Owens

      and in your world you must be on your game...people get weeded out of the commercial arena pretty quickly...  But I am sure there are many wholesalers or would be wholesalers that the same can be said about... they try don't have success and they are on to something else

  • Engelo RumoraBusiness Member
    Investor · Toledo, OH · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Sturgill:

    Given wholesaling is not a form of investing in real estate...perhaps licensee's and true investors should start thinking about a push to do away with related discussions...

    haha

    Love it mate :)

    This is funny lol

  • Investor · Century, FL · Member since 2015 · 950 posts · 603 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Dan Oliver:

    Work with an agent all you want. Find an agent that works for a company that has the proper relationships with the banks and who has bank representatives contact them and asked them to get this property off their desk with a cash buyer that will close in less than two weeks before it's listed. Work with an agent that can get the property acquired before it's available on MLS. That has the experience in rehab analysis. Then ask them to sell it to you less than .5% commission so your ROI isn't tarnished. I work in volume, not just one deal. I do all the leg work to get the price at rock bottom and only if the numbers work after rehab, all closing cost, taxes, HOA fees, insurance required during rehab, utility estimates during rehab, rental projections and ARV and second closing costs once you've placed it back on the market.. Please, work with a real estate agent that will do all of that for $1000 per deal.

    Really not following you. You get your wholesaler or realtor to run all your numbers for you?

    How many rehab flips have you really done if you don't know your numbers off by heart? This is easy stuff.

  • Investor · Century, FL · Member since 2015 · 950 posts · 603 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Dev Horn:

    But seriously if you think it's wholesalers driving prices up, I disagree.  

    Ok, look at it the other way round then.

    Are wholesalers driving the prices down? Of course they aren't. They add a mark up to reassign. Therefore, by definition they are (helping) driving the market up.

  • Stockbridge, GA · Member since 2015 · 159 posts · 33 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Sturgill:

    Given wholesaling is not a form of investing in real estate...perhaps licensee's and true investors should start thinking about a push to do away with related discussions...

     Hello Brandon,

    I understand your point but wholesaling is opportunity to invest within the real estate industry. There is a strong population of "ACTUAL" investors whom dedicate time and efforts to the wholesaling process. If done right, it is a good income stream while an investor is in-between deals, rehab project, or waiting for the next buyer.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Orlando, FL · Member since 2015 · 139 posts · 106 votes
    11y

    @James DeRoestI can see you don't get what I'm saying.  I was asked, "why not use a real estate agent?" My response was to that question.  I run the numbers for my investors.  I do the work for my investors as explained.  I have done countless flips and buy/holds on a personal level and because of that, I have some experience and knowledge to share to first time investors. I have acquired and sold numerous properties to my investors.  So I'm really not sure why you're questioning my credentials.  I am a licensed real estate agent and I specialize in dealing with cash investors looking for equitable wholesale properties to add to their portfolio.

  • Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2015 · 24 posts · 24 votes
    11y

    What I have discovered is that for those topics with subjects I am not interested in or want to read, if I don't click on the link, it does not launch for me.

    I find that method to be 100% effective.

    W hiskey

    T ango

    F oxtrot

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @James DeRoest:
    Originally posted by @Dev Horn:

    But seriously if you think it's wholesalers driving prices up, I disagree.  

    Ok, look at it the other way round then.

    Are wholesalers driving the prices down? Of course they aren't. They add a mark up to reassign. Therefore, by definition they are (helping) driving the market up.

     So. How many people/businesses in the daisy chain from the manufacturer to the  consumer "drive down" the price of goods in other industries.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 677 posts · 309 votes
    11y

    I know wholesalers that invest more in their business than many rehaber and flippers or buyers and they do their job very very professionally. Do you think because you bought one property you have answered the needs of the many thousands of people who are in a financially situation or holding distressed properties that they need help in selling them?

    A wholesaler ties up a property through contract and then offers them to those that can fund the next step in making the property marketable at retail by adding value and improving the neighborhood revitalizing the area.

    If you invest your time you are investing money because you are not getting paid by the hour you get paid when someone buys your contract. All the time it takes to properly evaluate a property, such as zoning, tax record and lien research, knowing the current mortgage amount if any, properly, adequately and accurately determine repair costs, properly and accurately determine ARV. All this work in an investment and a cost.

    If you are busy on one of your projects and someone needs to be saved from foreclosure you cannot be there to talk with that person and take any action that will help them. Some one has to start the ball rolling in getting that property to those that have the resources to help more completely. Some also needs to provide a way to market that property to those that can and are willing to fund an amount more adequate in line with a seller's needs.

    Why do you invest? Isn't it to make a profit? someone needs to be making sure there is an adequate supply of deals for you to work on and profit from otherwise as you propose let the real estate agents do it all. How would your business do if the only properties that you could be had to be purchased at 95% of ARV?

    Read almost any real estate listing. example: "A warehouse for sale advertised and listed as multi-residential good for condos or townhouses" for only $400K, then followed by a disclaimer that the property is zoned light industrial and the buyer is responsible for verifying with the city planning and building department as to the ability to build condos or townhouses. So many times properties are listed and advertised for a use which they will never be approved. You will have to do all of your own due diligence and possibly waste allot of your time.

    A good wholesaler does his or her due diligence and that is part of the service they provide aside from getting the property to you at a good price that creates the opportunity for you to profit sufficiently enough to make it worth your while.

    By being able to post on here about wholesaling you have an opportunity to tell the wholesalers what you need from them, meaning provide some training and education and encouragement because we really need them. Wholesalers as whole are investor friendly and real estate agents will typically not be. 

    You say wholesalers inflate prices. They work very hard and both need to and deserve to get paid. They typically work allot harder at getting you a property and provide you information about that property that agents will just never typically do. 

    Do you think a real estate agent is going to take the time to do all the due diligence on a property that you will require? typically almost never if ever !

    Do you think a real estate agent is going to go through the process of obtaining accurate and reliable repair figures? Typically almost never if ever.

    Do you think a real estate agent is concerned about getting you a property at a price that will leave enough meat on the deal for you? hahahah that is laughable. 

    To say that Wholesaling is not a part of the real estate investment process is like saying a builder can do just fine without building permits on every project. If someone has primed the project by doing everything required to obtain the building permits the builder can buy a property and go to work the next day otherwise they will be waiting in limbo anywhere from 3 months to 2 years without working on every single project.

    Wholesalers make the investment process far more efficient than it would be without them.

    I think you are being extremely naive. To take your thinking further we can say retail buyers do not need investors and renters do not need landlords and investor/owners do not need property managers and so on and so on. Your thinking proposes a line of thinking which will create a system that just will never work.

    You seem to think every investor is in your very same situation and that they all do deals at the same level as you. From you making the statement that wholesalers should be excluded from the process suggest to me that you are not a professional investor and truly lack the sophistication to understand the value and good use of wholesalers. 

    Generally there is room for improvement, a need for further education, exposure to unknown and un-thought of problems, and training at all levels of real restate investing that is the reason BiggerPockets is so popular and appreciated so much by so many people.

    Rather than bash you I would suggest you become more open minded and listen and question why others do see the great benefit of having real estate wholesalers as an integral part of our business. Give yourself more years to develop into a more professional investor and generally as a business person.

    What wholesalers do and can provide is a much needed service so it is to our benefit to provide encouragement to them, education, updating news, warnings, training, and comment as well as support by using and paying them for their service when we need them.

    Its up to us to do our best to protect, refine, and promote our business exactly as we are doing and have the opportunity to do right here on BiggerPockets because if not then the government is ever ready to regulate us all right out of business.

    By advocating the exclusion of wholesaling and wholesalers from our business and discussion is like advocating that the typical car be run on 3 wheels instead of 4 when it in fact has been designed to fun on 4 wheels. Wholesaling as a whole fits just fine in our overall world of real estate investing.

  • La Puente, CA · Member since 2015 · 97 posts · 49 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @James DeRoest:
    Originally posted by @Dev Horn:

    But seriously if you think it's wholesalers driving prices up, I disagree.  

    Ok, look at it the other way round then.

    Are wholesalers driving the prices down? Of course they aren't. They add a mark up to reassign. Therefore, by definition they are (helping) driving the market up.

     In any business there are many steps a product or service goes through before the end consumer buys it. For some rehabbers the wholesaler is a valuable link in their value creation model. For others it is not. If wholesalers never add any value and only drive the price up then their business model fails and they cease to exist. 

  • Brandon SturgillBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Joe Kling:
    Originally posted by @James DeRoest:
    Originally posted by @Joe Kling:
    Originally posted by @James DeRoest:

     My point, which you are missing, is that wholesalers provide no extra function in the market than is already provided by realtors. I'm not interested in them being at whatever job they think they have, we already have licensed professionals called realtors.

    And even if you want to call them flippers - how does that help me? It's just more people to feed in an ever increasing priced market. Where do I find value from that? I don't.

     I'm not missing your point. I just disagree with it. Wholesalers provide the function of sourcing properties that need to be rehabbed and linking them with individuals who are capable and willing to do that job. Realtors sell properties at retail value. They help the average individual who wants to buy a home for their family. The average individual doesn't want to deal with a rehab and even if they did their financing would prevent them from buying the types if properties that wholesalers typically deal with. Wholesalers have to be great at marketing so they can find those opportunities that rehabbers need to do business. 

    The store at the mall doesn't typically buy directly from the producer/manufacturer. They buy from a wholesaler. Why is it different for REI?

     As ironic as it is...there is really no difference between the marketing activities performed as an agent or a wholesaler...and yeah, investor-friendly agents are few and far between...

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  • Brandon SturgillBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Broker · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Dan Oliver That's a direct conflict of your fiduciary responsibility...the whole point of being a licensee...so you disregard the best interest of the individual you are seeking to acquire a property from...I have issue with that.

    Do you perform a CMA for all the folks you acquire wholesale properties from...or do you attempt to get the best price so you can profit...are you listing these on MLS...are you taking title?...

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